291 replies to this topic

[TWoP Pembleton]

I'm making a thread for the triangle because the topic is taking over many of the episode threads, so clearly there's an interest. Keep a few things in mind:

• This is a non-spoiler discussion.
• Respect each other's opinions and don't get defensive or trollish.
• Don't post about what "everyone" think or why you "don't get all the love/hate" or anything about other posters in general. Keep your posts to your own thoughts/opinions.

That said, feel free to disagree with anyone, as long as you keep it civil.

[KneadyRN]

OOhhh me first, me first.
Not sure what to say right now, other then I like this story line and look forward to the drama that is sure to occur when the Good Reverend returns to town.

[sueli769]

I've only started watching the series this season and am about a third of the way through the first season [intro to Kevin/Chad]. I didn't have any negative reaction at all to Scotty. While both Kevin and Scotty made mis-steps, so has everyone else on the show.

From Kevin Walker thread:

We know that 2.06 was the latest point at which Kevin had stopped hearing from Jason (that was the episode where he called Jason to tell him about Kitty's miscarriage, but couldn't reach him).

Kevin mentioned "I'd love to hear from you" in ep 2.06. His tone suggested he hadn't heard from Jason in awhile. At the end he was [at least seeming to be a bit] depressed and a bit angry ("Let's start with The Excorsist.") I don't think he would've been either if he had heard from Jason recently at that point. But that me.


Also, even if Jason couldn't call, couldn't he have sent a postcard at the very least? Maybe he did and it just takes a lot of time to get delivered. *shrug*

[Lewisfan48]

Kevin mentioned "I'd love to hear from you" in ep 2.06. His tone suggested he hadn't heard from Jason in awhile. At the end he was [at least seeming to be a bit] depressed and a bit angry ("Let's start with The Excorsist.") I don't think he would've been either if he had heard from Jason recently at that point. But that me.

That's a very good point. I'd forgotten about that line, and it definitely implies that it had already been some time since he'd heard from Jason. And in later scene with the DVD's, Kevin admitted he was depressed--again, suggesting some time had passed.

So we're talking about a substantial period of time, well over a month if not longer.

Also, even if Jason couldn't call, couldn't he have sent a postcard at the very least?

Yeah, it's really hard to see how he couldn't make a single phonecall to Kevin (however brief) when he was able to contact Robert twice.

Edited by Lewisfan48, Nov 29, 2007 @ 12:23 AM.

[eon.girl]

The last time we saw Kevin and Jason together was at Kitty's "doughnut cake" birthday party. They talked about the great summer they had and made the "love" declaration. This leads me to believe that Jason left either in late August or early September. The Walker's celebrated Halloween but there wasn't a Thanksgiving episode so timeline wise I'm thinking three months has passed since Jason and Kevin spoke.

[Bruinsfan]

But it's been implied that they have been in contact since Jason arrived in Malaysia, just not recently.

Also, even if Jason couldn't call, couldn't he have sent a postcard at the very least? Maybe he did and it just takes a lot of time to get delivered. *shrug*

I can get a book taken from digital files to galley proofs, shipped here from Hong Kong, and return the marked up pages for corrections in considerably less time than Jason spent incommunicado without so much as a single letter or telegram. He may have spotty phone service, but he's not traipsing through the unexplored jungles of Borneo.

[Jadia]

The more in depth we go with this, the more incredible it sounds. That's the point some of us have been making, I just don't buy that he wont contact Kevin, I just don't. A week maybe but the minute they had him contacting Robert and not Kevin my BSmeter went up.

And yes it has been implied that they've talked just not the past 'few weeks'.

[FleeceBlanket]

The more in depth we go with this, the more incredible it sounds. That's the point some of us have been making, I just don't buy that he wont contact Kevin, I just don't.

Perhaps this is getting too meta, but it might be useful to distinguish between a bad decision on the writers' part re: this whole story arc with a bad decision on Kevin's part. I totally agree that the writers handled Jason's character rather badly and it seems weird that he would go out of his way to be in regular weekly contact with Robert, but never bother to give Kevin so much as a phone call in the course of a month or two. Given the distance, the brevity of their initial relationship, and the business of Jason's life, I can easily come up with a range of reasons, but the truth is we have no clue what's motivating or not motivating Jason at this point, so his behavior is completely opaque to us. That was a writing mistake, IMO, whatever happened with Eric Winter's availability.

However, I distinguish between that and Kevin's behavior and motivation, at least in the context the writers created. In this world, he hadn't called Kevin in a few weeks, Kevin was re-developing feelings for Scotty, etc. etc. Kevin's decision, however oddly we got there, felt authentic to his character. Which is why I'm not really displeased with how it played out.

Or, to put it another way, the writing of the arc was bad, but Kevin's behavior (and Matthew Rhys' acting in this ep) felt genuine. Is any of this making sense, or am I just blowing hot air?

Edited by FleeceBlanket, Nov 29, 2007 @ 9:05 AM.

[MarkC99]

and it seems weird that he would go out of his way to be in regular weekly contact with Robert,

Didn't Robert say he'd only talked to Jason twice?

but the truth is we have no clue what's motivating or not motivating Jason at this point, so his behavior is completely opaque to us. That was a writing mistake, IMO, whatever happened with Eric Winter's availability.

I don't see what's so bad about the way they handled Jason's absence, given their original plans. I think originally they wanted Jason/Kevin to stay together and this was a way to keep them together while EW was gone. If something has happened and EW may not be coming back for as long as anticipated or if the story arc had to change for some reason, then this was their way of explaining how Kevin would start to drift away from Jason.

If Jason comes back and he and Kevin get back together, then I think this story point was a mistake, because they'd have broken up and Kevin/Scotty would've reunited for no reason other than cheap attempts at drama.

If Jason isn't coming back long-term and TPTB had to find a way to end his relationship with Kevin, then this seems fairly understandable to me.

People say that this is out of character for Jason, but in my opinion, we barely even knew Jason. He was in three episodes and none of those were episodes that showed him in great depth. If the writers had said Jason decided to marry a Malaysian woman and have a dozen kids with her, or that Jason decided to kill himself, I might say that was out of character, but from the little we knew of Jason and of his motivations, we knew he cared deeply about his role as a minister and that he put that first. I don't have a problem believing that he'd ignore Kevin. They were only together for a few months, and from what was shown, Kevin was the one who made the major life changes for Jason, whereas Jason never did that for Kevin.

And yes it has been implied that they've talked just not the past 'few weeks'.

We've never actually seen them talk since Jason left. He may have called at some point, but from the way Kevin was acting, it seems like it had been more than a few weeks.

The way I see it is, the show was put in a corner after their initial decision to keep Jason and Kevin together. This is a way to get out of it without making Kevin or Jason look too terrible. I think 'bad writing' is more applicable to the Lena/Tommy affair, or that Rebecca/Joe storyline last season.

Edited by MarkC99, Nov 29, 2007 @ 10:34 AM.

[Lewisfan48]

Based on the timeline, it'd been at least a month of non-communication and perhaps longer.

[KneadyRN]

And I would imagine for a fledgling relationship, a month might as well be a year. I don't understand why they just didn't have Jason be more honorable and tell Kevin that he cares about him but it's not fair to make him sit around and wait and if it's meant to be, then when he comes back they can pick up where they left off. It's especially cruel when Jason has to know how deeply Kevin cares for him yet he can't take the time to email or send a letter. This is Malyasia not outer Mongolia after all.
I was a little 'meh' about Scotty after season 1, he was a bit flamboyant and preachy but this season has humbled him and what with Kevin finally getting over his "i can't find love' drama, it looks like it could actually work between the 2 of them.

Ok this might be slightly off topic but I was wondering if anyone could remember if they have actually shown Kevin in bed with anyone. We have seen him in bed while Chad was dressing but have we ever seen Kevin and any of his partners just lying in bed, post or pre sex??
I think that tptb might be afraid to show that for whatever reason. Kissing is one thing but 2 gays in a bed?? EVen though that was done, what 20 years ago on Thirtysomething. And honestly, aren't the gay kisses a little tame? I was noticing that there is usually a fair amount of space between the actors when there is a snog happening (only exception I can think of is Jason jumping on Kevin in the pantry). Even the kiss between Scotty and Kevin on sunday there was quite a bit distance there. Sorry to go off on a tangent but it kind of bugs me that there is this double standard when it comes to this.

[Lewisfan48]

The camera angle left something to be desired of the Kevin/Scotty kiss in 2.08, but the actors were very much committed to the scene. I still found it a pretty hot scene, and that was a credit to Luke and Matthew simply going for it. (Didn't notice any distance between the actors, btw.)

Some of Kevin's kisses have been tame or filmed in ways that obstructed them (the first Kevin/Scotty kiss in Date Night was covered by Scotty's hand), but others have been more openly filmed. The best kiss so far was the one shared by Kevin and Chad at the end of "Love is Difficult." Wide open camera angle, very passionate. Let's hope for more of that.

There were a couple scenes of Kevin and Chad lying in bed, post-sex, IIRC. In 1.13, we saw Kevin giving Chad a kiss as they talked in bed about the previous night's birthday party for Nora.

EVen though that was done, what 20 years ago on Thirtysomething.

IMHO, B&S demonstrates how much we've progressed since thirtysomething, not the reverse. That single scene of the gay guys in bed (no affection shown) endured an extremely negative reaction from advertisers and the studio. Though are still some inequities, B&S is the first network show to have a regular gay character whose personal life is explored in detail and who has regularly shown affection with his boyfriends. YMMV.

Edited by Lewisfan48, Nov 29, 2007 @ 11:49 AM.

[MarkC99]

I remember Kevin in his boxers and Chad getting dressed. That was the closest I remember to a bedroom scene. I think that's probably the closest we're going to get, which I can understand.

The kisses last season with Kevin/Scotty and Kevin/Chad were unobscured and ran the gamut between tender and passionate. I'm not sure what's going on this season, but there's been a noticeable difference in how they've been filmed. To me that started with the pantry kiss in the season finale. I guess we'll see what happens if there's another kiss, if this is some kind of trend towards obscuring.

Edited by MarkC99, Nov 29, 2007 @ 11:50 AM.

[Lewisfan48]

The kisses last season with Kevin/Scotty and Kevin/Chad were unobscured and ran the gamut between tender and passionate.

Not to belabor the point, but the first Kevin/Scotty kiss was quite obscured by Scotty's head in Date Night. It's not the simple case where last year Kevin was hot and heavy all the time, and this year he gets nothing. I think it's more nuanced than that (for example, the "domestic bliss" shower scene and romantic talk in the courtyard between Kevin/Jason in the premiere were great exampes of showing Kevin's lovelife).

The biggest difference is that in Season 1 Kevin was in a relationship most of the time, whereas this season Kevin has been in an offscreen relationship. Now that he's starting something up with Scotty (and/or the triangle storyline heats up), I expect we'll get more in the way of affection.

Edited by Lewisfan48, Nov 29, 2007 @ 12:09 PM.

[FleeceBlanket]

People say that this is out of character for Jason, but in my opinion, we barely even knew Jason...If the writers had said Jason decided to marry a Malaysian woman and have a dozen kids with her, or that Jason decided to kill himself, I might say that was out of character, but from the little we knew of Jason and of his motivations, we knew he cared deeply about his role as a minister and that he put that first.

This is my point, though - I agree that we know nothing of his motivations. We never really got to know his character in the first place, which once again, strikes me as weird choice on the part of the writers if they were gonna have Kevin pining away after him for months. I too can come up with a gaggle of reasons as to why Jason behaved the way he did, but we were shown none of that. All we got was a lot of absence, and I think it was the writers' job to flesh that out a little bit more. Why build him up as a romantic love interest in the finale of S1 and the S2 premiere, if the only thing that was gonna happen was that he would suddenly drop off the face of the planet for no apparent reason?

There were other choices the writers could've made - shown Kevin having fights with Jason about his lack of communication or availability, or having Robert explain some reasons for his absence, etc. Instead, we got a non-relationship with an ending that happened off-screen, and are left coming up with our own explanations for why Jason did what he did.

I remember an interview with one of the creators towards the beginning of the season, talking about how Jason's absence was gonna give Kevin an opportunity to explore other parts of his identity, give him storylines not based around his relationships. That hasn't happened so much. While I don't think him getting back together with Scotty is a bad thing, I think it speaks to a lack of planning on the writers' part. The whole Jason story arc has a tinge of "fly-by-night" casualness to it.

Didn't Robert say he'd only talked to Jason twice?

Twice in the last week. Who knows how much they'd talked before then?

Edited by FleeceBlanket, Nov 29, 2007 @ 12:26 PM.

[MarkC99]

Why build him up as a romantic love interest in the finale of S1 and the S2 premiere, if the only thing that was gonna happen was that he would suddenly drop off the face of the planet for no apparent reason?

I think their plans for Jason changed after EW had to go to Viva Laughlin. They decided it was worth keeping them together until they saw what happened to VL, which meant Kevin had to wait for some period of time. Then I assume they thought if VL was canceled, EW would return and Jason would be with Kevin again. I think something may have happened with EW to change those plans, which is why they've broken them up and put him with Scotty.

I remember an interview with one of the creators towards the beginning of the season, talking about how Jason's absence was gonna give Kevin an opportunity to explore other parts of his identity, give him storylines not based around his relationships. That hasn't happened so much.

They did have him help Justin and Sarah, and he had the story with Saul. Not much, but it was an attempt to see part of him besides his love interest.

[Lewisfan48]

I remember an interview with one of the creators towards the beginning of the season, talking about how Jason's absence was gonna give Kevin an opportunity to explore other parts of his identity, give him storylines not based around his relationships.

I never read any such interviews; do you recall where they were? All the statements by Berlanti, Baitz, etc. I read were about striking up a friendship again with Scotty and being "tested" in the area of romantic commitment. So even with Jason's absence, I think the plan was to explore Kevin's personal life.

Although we also did see Kevin helping Justin in his recovery, Sarah with her divorce, and his involvement in Saul's coming-out storyline.

Instead, we got a non-relationship with an ending that happened off-screen, and are left coming up with our own explanations for why Jason did what he did.

That presumes Jason won't ever return, but I don't think we can make such a presumption especially given Eric Winter is available. Even if Kevin and Jason never get back together, bringing Jason back (for however long) could give the writers the opportunity to flesh out what happened on his end.

Edited by Lewisfan48, Nov 29, 2007 @ 12:53 PM.

[FleeceBlanket]

That presumes Jason won't ever return, but I don't think we can make such a presumption especially given Eric Winter is available. Even if Kevin and Jason never get back together, bringing Jason back (for however long) could give the writers the opportunity to flesh out what happened on his end.

Which is fine, but still doesn't address my dissatisfaction with how the disintegrating relationship was handled while it was occurring. But we may be entering YMMV territory, so I'll leave it there.

As to the interview I'm referring to, I'll have to look it up. I actually think I heard about it here on TWoP in the media thread.

[Lewisfan48]

Which is fine, but still doesn't address my dissatisfaction with how the disintegrating relationship was handled while it was occurring. But we may be entering YMMV territory, so I'll leave it there.

That's a very fair point, and I wasn't necessarily disagreeing with you there. I was just saying that it might make more sense once we see the story arc play out in its entirety.

[Terran]

If Jason comes back and he and Kevin get back together, then I think this story point was a mistake, because they'd have broken up and Kevin/Scotty would've reunited for no reason other than cheap attempts at drama.

But cheap attempts at drama are what keep soap operas running!

However, as I just posted in another way in the Spec/Spoilers thread, I am becoming of the opinion the Kevin/Scotty pairing is here to stay for awhile, that Kevin/Jason are over with because that makes Kevin extremely undependable (stress, EXTREMELY) when he's trying to maintain a serious relationship, and Jason incredibly forgiving of a lover who broke up w/him long distance after having slept w/an old boyfriend.

Though the frequent bad writing on this show means they'll make anything happen if they want it to.

I was of the opinion it was Scotty who pointed out it had only been weeks or a few (two?) weeks since Kevin hadn't heard from Jason.

Also, Malaysia can't have great phone service, not even w/cells. I live in the SF Bay Area, you can't get much more techno than that, and believe me there are frequent locations within cities where the phone says NO SERVICE. The fact Malaysia isn't too great on phone service doesn't surprise me.

We don't know which method Robert reached Jason, it could be Robert - via his senatorial privileges - has access to Jason we don't know about. And we only know of two phone calls btw the brothers, one of which got cut off.

So, again, the writers aren't telling us anything. But I think it's because at the point of ep 8 they really didn't know the resolution of the triangle and had to keep their options open.

[Lewisfan48]

I was of the opinion it was Scotty who pointed out it had only been weeks or a few (two?) weeks since Kevin hadn't heard from Jason.

And as I explained previously, the timeline of the show demonstrates that at the very least 4 weeks had passed, if not more. For example, "few weeks" had passed between 2.07 and 2.08 alone (Justin mentions he'd been going to detox and sponsor meetings for the past few weeks since his intervention) and we know that Kevin had already stopped hearing from Jason all the way back in 2.06.

We don't know which method Robert reached Jason, it could be Robert - via his senatorial privileges - has access to Jason we don't know about. And we only know of two phone calls btw the brothers, one of which got cut off.

If that were the case, wouldn't Robert have immediately mentioned that in defense of his brother and to reassure Kevin? Robert's silence instead indicated, "Oh shit, I didn't realize Jason hadn't called Kevin."

No one is disputing that the telephone service was spotty, nor was Kevin asking for phonecalls that lasted hours in duration. Kevin simply was asking for one form of contact in returning his phonecalls. One. It strains belief that Jason was entirely incapable of contacting Kevin at least once in any form, be it telephone or email.

Kevin isn't perfect by any means, but IMO one cannot ignore the fact that Jason also wasn't dependable in trying to maintain a long-distance relationship. No contacting his boyfriend whatsoever for weeks on end when he could reach his brother? I don't see how "good faith attempt" can be read into such inaction. I think Kevin was right: That Jason got consumed by his missionary work and neglected their relationship as a result.

Edited by Lewisfan48, Nov 29, 2007 @ 5:31 PM.

[KneadyRN]

I really hope we do learn what was said in that phone conversation. If Jason started out with "I need to talk to you", I have to think that it wasn't a necessarily good conversation. Has anyone ever had an experience where someone says I need to talk to you and it's for good news? It's possible, I know, but seldom happens to me.
Does anything think that the reason Scotty asks Kevin if he told Jason they slept together was to test Kevin? I can't think of why he would think that would be important to ask. Wouldn't be enough to just say that he broke up with him?

[cmstevens]

Does anything think that the reason Scotty asks Kevin if he told Jason they slept together was to test Kevin? I can't think of why he would think that would be important to ask. Wouldn't be enough to just say that he broke up with him?

Being that the question came directly after Kevin said "I want to be honest about who I am", I would say it would be a natural question to ask especially when Kevin was asking Scotty to reconsider a relationship with him. A request that I hope we get a response to this week.

Edited by cmstevens, Nov 29, 2007 @ 7:05 PM.

[Jadia]

People say that this is out of character for Jason, but in my opinion, we barely even knew Jason. He was in three episodes and none of those were episodes that showed him in great depth. If the writers had said Jason decided to marry a Malaysian woman and have a dozen kids with her, or that Jason decided to kill himself, I might say that was out of character, but from the little we knew of Jason and of his motivations, we knew he cared deeply about his role as a minister and that he put that first.

If we don't know what's in character then how exactly do we know what's OUT of character? After all he was only in 3 episodes, right? Yes we saw that he cares very much about being a minister and probably would put that first. Though going on this mission doesn't mean he's neglecting his relationship and doesn't care about Kevin needs. He is a minister, Jason going out of the country on some mission is not that out of the norm for someone in his position. Kevin was willing to wait for him for upwards of a yr! Sounds like someone whose so neglectful and wont gave his boyfriend so much as a phone call or email once he set foot in Malaysia? Obviously Kevin felt loved and felt like Jason was worth the risk.

Since ptb were so apt to put Kevin/Scotty back together in a ny minute without developing this K/J breakup. I can only go by what I saw of the Jason that we were privy too and yes I think it was completely out of character. I understand why Kevin broke up with Jason but that doesn't equate to me thinking that ptb handled it properly.

If Jason comes back and we hear nothing of that phone call or what happened to cause this breakup, it would leave me even more frustrated with what ptb pulled. Which seems like a bait and switch move to pair up Kevin and Scotty. And if they are some long term match, what's the rush? They couldn't wait one episode after Kevin broke up with Scotty to have them reunite? It makes it seems like Kevin sleeping with Scotty was the last straw and what he needed to move on. Kevin moves from relationship to relationship with No time in between, its just not healthy and such a disservice to the character.

It strains belief that Jason was entirely incapable of contacting Kevin at least once in any form, be it telephone or email.

Yep Lewis, it does lol.

[Lewisfan48]

It makes it seems like Kevin sleeping with Scotty was the last straw and what he needed to move on.

Although I think 2.08 demonstrated that Kevin was developing feelings for Scotty again, I don't think he has fully moved on from Jason. Even if the break-up was justified (and I think it was), that type of emotional investment doesn't go away instantly. So I feel like we'll see Kevin have to deal with these lingering feelings for Jason.

Kevin moves from relationship to relationship with No time in between, its just not healthy and such a disservice to the character.

There was a 3-episode gap between Scotty/Chad and 4-episode gap between Chad/Jason (I don't count the blind date in Game Night because that was something Kitty pushed Kevin to go on).

This is a nighttime soap -- long gaps between love interests aren't the norm because of the nature of episodic storytelling, even though I agree IRL it would certainly be healthier. (Though I will add that I have several friends, gay and straight, who do move quickly from relationship to relationship. It happens, even with people who are otherwise pretty level-headed.)

There was another factor at work here too: The gaps in Season 1 made sense because we saw the relationships play out onscreen and so these "breaks" seemed appropriate, whereas this entire season (save for the premiere) Kevin was "alone" in the sense that we never saw him interact with his partner. So while waiting several episodes before reuniting Kevin/Scotty might have been the healthier thing IRL, from this viewer's perspective I was fine with it as I was more than ready to see his lovelife actually play out on my TV screen. YMMV.

Edited by Lewisfan48, Nov 29, 2007 @ 10:37 PM.

[internMD]

Has anyone seen the new sneek peek (2nd one)? Not sure if it's right to discuss a promo here as I guess it's considered a spoiler.

[Jadia]

Actually you know my problem isn't really that Kevin has relationships, some thrive on those. Wanting companionship and or being a serial monogamist, isnt really a bad thing. Its what works for you.

I just have issues with how the breakup was handled and I do suspect that ptb felt the same as you, Lewis. That Kevin had been alone enough (though technically he was in a relationship) and it was time to move him on. They just handled it badly imo. I'm just still confused with a lot of other factors here. One being ptb knew that there was a possibility however minimal that VL would be successful and EW wont be able to return. So they had to have a secondary plan in mind but it seems like something they just put together.

And given time constraints and Eric was still involved with VL, I just don't know what happened behind the scenes that lead to them writing this in episode 8. Instead of say maybe episode 10 or 11 when they had access to Eric at that time to perhaps know his intentions. And I also wonder if this breakup was the plan all along because they started setting this up in episode 6, which is even earlier and they had NO inkling about VL then, certainly not. I always knew that most likely there would be some drama when or if Jason returned. I suspected either they would be happy or something will happen with Scotty. And when I heard that Scotty was returning I posted on this very same board that I was afraid of where it was leading and that was exactly what happened. Its shocking and yet, not.

I think it was KneadyRN who mentioned this so I'll respond here but I was disappointed because even though given Kevin's history I shouldn't be. I thought he had grown with Jason and all ptb should have done was have Kevin talk to Jason before cheating on him. The fact is up till then, he still didn't know what Jason's story was. I can still love Kevin and not like what he did.

I am really interested in how this closure if any is written between Jason and Kevin. Cause Kevin staying with Scotty out of loyalty because he was here and whereas Jason wasn't is different from not wanting Jason.

I would say I want a full blown triangle but I don't see that happening. Cause having both Scotty and Jason on this show is probably too much for PTB. I say this if EW is open to staying. Cause they can easily pair up K/J as they did S/K imo. Would be interesting to see a good written gay triangle though but again, I doubt it.

[TWoP Pembleton]

Promos aren't spoilers. Link and discuss away.

[internMD]

Promos aren't spoilers. Link and discuss away.

Thank you! I wasn't sure about that. Sorry I ended up posting it on the wrong thread.

[cmstevens]

Promos aren't spoilers. Link and discuss away.

I wasn't sure about this either, so I moved this post from the spoiler thread:

There was something about Robert's tone in that preview that rubbed me the wrong way. I had a brief flashback to "Game Night" and the attitude he had toward Kevin in the kitchen (when Kitty was there with Kevin). Something abrasively superior about it, IMO. YMMV