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A Thread For All Seasons: Saving People, Hunting Things; The Family Business


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#4141

supposebly

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Posted May 9, 2012 @ 7:56 PM

It's that they routinely kill off / traumatize / psychologically damage every single character yet because of the nature of the show, said changes cannot
A) be permanent
or
B) be as bad as they theoretically should be.


Agreed. The other two major problems that make me care a lot less than I used to:

1) Every monster has become declawed.
At some point, demons were scary. Now they are even allies. Remember when it was a big deal to work with Ruby. Do the writers even remember Jus in Bello?
At some point, angels were awesome, unkillable "monsters". Now we have "goon angels" that are about as scary as the demons.
I'm sure if this show goes to 10 seasons, we will have a leviathan ally.

2) Most consequences of their actions are no big deal anymore.
At some point, exorcising a demon had tremendous consequences for the host. Does anyone remember original Meg and her host? That whole issue went out the window.

It feels like there is attrition of drama. I guess that's what happens when a show runs too long.

Edited by supposebly, May 9, 2012 @ 7:56 PM.

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#4142

FastenSeatBelts

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Posted May 10, 2012 @ 2:01 AM

It feels like there is attrition of drama.

Exactly I'd like the show to be less predictable and a lot darker and scarier I think, not dark and scary like all that angst and uncertainty we had to endure, but like there's something really dangerous. Not just pseudo-dangerous-cause-everyone-knows-we'll-be-just-fine. I want to sit in front of my TV and be at least a little bit scared for their lives or cause their antagonist or the situation is really scary.
I mean I'm not even able to watch Sixth Sense, The Shining or Blair Witch Project without being scared for days, while Supernatural doesn't mess with my mind at all. Perhaps it's just because the good looks of the boys are distracting me, but perhaps it's because everything that's supposed to scare me seems so surreal.

I think over time you just got used to the fact, that nothing lasts in the universe of supernatural. What's dead doesn't stay dead, if your traumatized it will be alright after a good night's sleep and so on.
I think part of their problem is, that they don't want to take any risk and they try to please the fans by bringing their favourites back from the dead. I don't want to say, that I'm not glad Sam and Dean are still alive, I really don't want them to die...again..., but yeah who cares about credibility.

Edited by FastenSeatBelts, May 10, 2012 @ 2:08 AM.

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#4143

Bruinsfan

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Posted May 11, 2012 @ 11:24 PM

At some point, exorcising a demon had tremendous consequences for the host. Does anyone remember original Meg and her host? That whole issue went out the window.


To be fair, they did devote the episode "Repo Man" to that very subject this season. But in general I agree, and I'm not sure it's really anything that the show's doing wrong so much as an unavoidable consequence of long-form episodic action-adventure tales. Dracula in a two hour movie is terrifying and makes for a riveting struggle against the odds by a plucky band of underdogs. Taking down nondescript vampire #27 in the 148th episode just can't pack the same wallop by its very nature.
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#4144

oreganseal

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Posted May 19, 2012 @ 4:46 PM

I'd like Castiel a lot more if they'd stop finding stupid ways to bring him back and even more stupid ways to continue making him relevant. He's the Fanservice in their back pocket that has about as thrilling a plotline as Bobby's Ghost this time around.


I don't like this new!cas... it feels like poorly written fanfiction. I know there is a huge fanbase for Dean and Cas, and I also like the relationship, just not this force fed dynamic.

Bobby should have died when he died ghost!bobby was terrible.

I hope SPN gets back to hunting actual scary monsters, being ripped to shreds like in "Shadows". I get annoyed with these overlong arcs that don't satisfy and are disjointed.

I love SPN, but I hope it can switch it up.
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#4145

hat

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Posted May 19, 2012 @ 6:41 PM

He's the Fanservice in their back pocket that has about as thrilling a plotline as Bobby's Ghost this time around.

Gamble has fanserviced since about the beginning of season 5 and didn't give up, even at the bitter end she was still fanservicing. Kripke fanserviced to the point of writing the crappiest episode ever in Swan Song. Carver is just starting and if Cas is fanservice, then so be it. This fanservice may actually be a good thing compared to the type that was done by Gamble for the past two seasons that didn't please anyone, including the fans she was desperately trying to please.
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#4146

Gwonk

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Posted May 19, 2012 @ 7:52 PM

This fanservice may actually be a good thing compared to the type that was done by Gamble for the past two seasons that didn't please anyone, including the fans she was desperately trying to please.

No fanservice is good fanservice. Shirtless scenes, sex scenes, the constant Wincest and/or Dean and Castiel's epic romance that's not really a romance all take away from actually telling a serious (or at least realistic) story and instead serves to remind me that this is a low-budget TV show that is more interested in winking at fangirls than actually having good plotlines.

In other words - it would be hella stronger if they'd just stick to telling the story, instead of deciding to throw in meta, in-jokes, and spending more time appeasing the fangirls than normal viewers.

Edited by Gwonk, May 19, 2012 @ 7:52 PM.

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#4147

hat

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Posted May 19, 2012 @ 7:57 PM

it would be hella stronger if they'd just stick to telling the story,

Yes it would be, but I don't understand why the story can't be told with Dean and Cas and be just as strong. I think that with Carver, who has no personal agenda, nor does he have the hots for one of the leads, can actually work the characters, all of them equally, with a very interesting story for all three characters. I can see Purgatory as a great setting for Dean and Cas to have to fight their way out using whatever tools they can, and using both Dean's and Cas' expertise. I can also see where Sam has to use his own knowledge and guts to try to save Kevin and find a solution to the Leviathans. There's no reason the guys can't work on different problems.

I agree with the enough of the meta jokes; however, at this time, I have to wonder how many normal viewers are left compared to the fangirls and I also have to wonder if maybe some of the normal viewers may actually like and appreciate a new character like Cas instead of two brothers who can't get out of the rut the writers put them in since season 2.

Edited by hat, May 19, 2012 @ 8:00 PM.

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#4148

Gwonk

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Posted May 19, 2012 @ 8:03 PM

At this point I really can't see Castiel as a solid character because the writers have run out of both ways to use him as support and, more importantly, keep twisting him around from loyal, able-bodied warrior to comic relief back to struggling angel back to comic relief back to... a parody of Misha Collins' Twitter, apparently. And then back to overpowered (but not too overpowered) warrior.

If they can pull it off - good on them. But it has nothing to do with Dean and Castiel's grand relationship and everything to do with balancing Castiel's overpowered angelic abilities so that he can't fix everything (they usually deal with this by not using him often but do too little and he's dead weight), but still keep him relevant. I did like that in S6 he had another agenda to keep him busy but something like that keeps him solidly out of the Winchester story.

Too much and it's pointless for the boys to fight MotW's. Too little and Castiel's appearances are basically fanservice. I don't begrudge them figuring out that problem.

I can see Purgatory as a great setting for Dean and Cas to have to fight their way out using whatever tools they can, and using both Dean's and Cas' expertise

They'll only be in it for maybe two episodes, maybe three.

Supernatural has a rather solid history of getting back to normal MotWs relatively quickly.

Edited by Gwonk, May 19, 2012 @ 8:07 PM.

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#4149

MichaelaBelle

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Posted May 19, 2012 @ 10:08 PM

But it has nothing to do with Dean and Castiel's grand relationship and everything to do with balancing Castiel's overpowered angelic abilities so that he can't fix everything (they usually deal with this by not using him often but do too little and he's dead weight),

This show doesn't know how to not use deus ex machinas to save the day, so it may as well be Cas. He's been gone for most of the season and in his place the brothers have been saved by helpful demons (both Meg and Crowley), a murdering witch and ghost Bobby. Angels can't even kill Leviathans so Cas would not have been able to fix this problem easily and we would have been spared the brothers working with Meg of all creatures. I do agree he should have his own heavenly problems do deal with so he isn't at the brothers's beck and call for MOTW.
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#4150

snowflakey

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Posted May 20, 2012 @ 4:19 AM

At this point I really can't see Castiel as a solid character because the writers have run out of both ways to use him as support and, more importantly, keep twisting him around from loyal, able-bodied warrior to comic relief back to struggling angel back to comic relief back to... a parody of Misha Collins' Twitter, apparently. And then back to overpowered (but not too overpowered) warrior.


I agree. It does seem like we get a different version of Cas in every episode he was in. It would be one thing if it felt like an organic evolution of the character. "The End" version of Cas was somewhat believable, because you can kinda see how he ended up the way he did. Losing his angel mojo, turning to drugs and sex, facing his own mortality for the first time.

But to have a different Cas in every episode feels more like the writers aren't sure what to do with him. I also feel there is a bit of fanservice being given to the character too. Misha's public person is that of a weird, kooky oddball, which is all well and good for him, his fans love that and yadda yadda. But I think with the last couple of episodes, they are trying to turn Cas into "Misha," which I find kinda odd.

I just hope for next season, they give Cas some kind of cohesiveness and organic character development. Instead of the writers confusing the actor and the character to make a segment of the viewers happy.
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#4151

Bruinsfan

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Posted May 20, 2012 @ 9:03 AM

Well, much as I prefer the characterization he had in Season 4, I have to admit that having Castiel's mental damage keep him acting random and unfocused actually is an excellent way to keep him around for the character bits while avoiding having him save the day every time the Winchesters face off against a powerful opponent. If they make it a long-term aspect of the character they don't have to worry about continuing to make plot contrivances to neutralize his abilities so Sam and Dean can actually do stuff.
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#4152

phidra

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Posted May 20, 2012 @ 10:44 AM

I can see Purgatory as a great setting for Dean and Cas to have to fight their way out using whatever tools they can, and using both Dean's and Cas' expertise


They'll only be in it for maybe two episodes, maybe three.

Supernatural has a rather solid history of getting back to normal MotWs relatively quickly.

Maybe, but this is a new showrunner, one with, hopefully, more focus than Kripke and less fangirl traits than Gamble.

Plus, that's more story than Dean's had in the past 3 years, so it's still good. If the show goes back to what's wrong with Sam and how much should Dean angst over it, I can still drop it. But for the first 2 or 3 episode I will enjoy the show.
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#4153

Raynell

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Posted May 21, 2012 @ 8:59 AM

The setup for S8 has got me excited. I haven't felt scared for Sam or Dean for a while, even with no Cas or Bobby. But separated, my imagination is all fired up, wondering how both are going to survive and deal with the problems on their own.

Here's hoping Carver will go for character development and story growth instead of just the usual SamnDean alone forever with occasional wacky hijinks. Some people might like it, but I don't. It gets boring as S7 showed.
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#4154

saltrounds

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Posted May 21, 2012 @ 10:51 AM

I find it interesting that at Aecon3 just recently, when asked about the scene in The Third Man in which Cas apparently has no idea who or what resurrected Sam, Misha Collins said he played it as genuine ignorance because that is how it was written. He said he had been given no information hinting at any plan for it to be Castiel, and also stated his belief that the writers had no plan for that to happen at the time 6.03 was filmed (imo that must be the case, especially given the much debated lack of a handprint scar on Sam). It also – imo – suggests that there was no plan for Cas to be the culprit until the midseason "course change" Robert Singer mentioned, since I doubt the PTB wouldn't have at least an outline of how all the plot threads would be tied up at the end of the season.

ETA – I'm paraphrasing him from one of the (admittedly poor quality) Con videos on YouTube, but that's the jist of what he said.

Edited by saltrounds, May 21, 2012 @ 10:55 AM.

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#4155

Gwonk

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Posted May 21, 2012 @ 11:09 AM

He said he had been given no information hinting at any plan for it to be Castiel,

That's typical though. Jared and Jensen have both said that they typically only know things from script to script. Especially with the noir theme, none of the writers would have wanted to reveal anything.

I actually think that the midseason change was them giving Sam his soul back. IIRC, Sera and Singer have both said they considered making it a season-long thing (which was indeed a terrible idea). Jensen has said too he requested that they wrap it up sooner rather than later because he didn't like playing against Jared without their usual rhythm.

Here's hoping Carver will go for character development and story growth instead of just the usual SamnDean alone

I want actual honest-to-goodness scary cases. With focus on the victims and Sam and Dean actually getting to save them again. Feels like a long time since I really cared about any of the monster fodder.

And blood and stuff. Yes.

Edited by Gwonk, May 21, 2012 @ 11:11 AM.

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#4156

saltrounds

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Posted May 21, 2012 @ 11:15 AM

I actually think that the midseason change was them giving Sam his soul back.


ITA that must have been an element of the "course change" Ė we'll agree to differ wrt Castiel!
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#4157

Aeryn13

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Posted May 21, 2012 @ 11:29 AM

Something this show desperately needs is someone who knows how to do proper pacing. Kripke didn't. Gamble didn't.

In the beginning it just showed less because the plots were smaller. You could have the odd coordinates from Dad in Season 1 and then not pick up this theme for two or three episodes in a row before going back to it and it still more or less worked.

Meanwhile putting the Apocalypse on hold for entire swaths of pointless filler episodes in Season 5? Didn't work at all. Lucifer has risen, after the big bruhaha they made about this in Season 4, it should have meant something. When the apocalypse calls, your response isn't "please hold your call until the next possible operator is available for you".

I don't know what the fuck Season 6 was supposed to be with the myriad of plots that led nowhere. Alphas? Campbells? Mother of all Monsters? All on their own potentially interesting. All interconnected in terms of being stepping stones building up to a bigger story? Also an interesting possibility which however would have required more talented writing.

Instead the main plot of that Season was Cas vs. Crowley vs. Raphael vs. Purgatory (or something). And even that one wasn't bad. But what the fuck did it have to do with the Alphas, Eve, Campbells etc? The latter could have been spared for another Season while the heavenly weapons could have gotten some play. And worst of all, the main plot only emerged like five minutes to the Finale. Good call, pacing squad. Not.

The plot that got the most consistent play was the soulless!Sam pimping. Which didn't have to do with ANY of the above really.

Season 4 wasn't perfect by any means but at least they made an effort to tell the story over the entire Season, with little stepping stones along the way. Step 1: Introduction of angels, step 2: Lilith plan aka seal-breaking, step 3: how to stop said plan, step 4: oops, didn't quite work.

Sure, there were a few fillers but the main plot moved forward as the Season went on. Seals got broken along the way. The main characters learned about this, they were involved in it. They actively fought it so their actions contributed to the plot movements. Over the 22 episodes of the Season.

Noone waited around for 16 or so episodes to get an infodump three episodes before the Finale and then a hastily cobbled-together plan in said Finale.

And best of all, each brother had their own storyline that intersected with the overreaching main plot.

From what I remember from Carver's eps, within those episodic structures, he could manage plot and pacing. So hopefully he can extrapolate those skills over a 22 (or 23) episode long story.
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#4158

Dynaformer

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Posted May 21, 2012 @ 11:34 AM

It also Ė imo Ė suggests that there was no plan for Cas to be the culprit until the midseason "course change"


I find this appalling. It's bad enough that they decided to go in this direction with Castiel at all, but the idea it could have been an off-the-cuff plan underlines how poorly the show is run.


That's typical though. Jared and Jensen have both said that they typically only know things from script to script. Especially with the noir theme, none of the writers would have wanted to reveal anything.


I can maybe see the reasoning (though I disagree with it) for Jared and Jensen not to know what is going on as they were the characters being manipulated (but it really seems a slam against their ability to do their jobs....you know...this thing called ACTING). However, it doesn't make sense that Misha wouldn't know what the hell his character was doing and why. How can you sell a part you're playing if you don't even know the entirety of its scope? Nope. Don't buy the actors needed to be kept in the dark. This doesn't sound like a very healthy collaboration between writers and actors. Instead, it seems a way of undermining a good working relationship. JMO.
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#4159

Tralah

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Posted May 21, 2012 @ 12:00 PM

It still makes utterly no sense to me why Castiel would lie to Dean about rescuing Sam, and Misha played that part so straight that I definitely believe Misha's telling the truth at the convention and was in the dark during the 6.03. I also suspect that Castiel wasn't the original culprit in mind for Sam's soulless resurrection. It makes far more sense to me that Crowley would include saving Sam to sweeten the deal with Castiel, but Crowley would "accidentally" resurrect Sam without his soul, so he'd be a more efficient (and controllable) hunter. Castiel would have been too busy waging his Civil War in heaven and not have realized what Crowley had done for awhile. Just my speculation anyway.

The main reason I believe Misha when he said he didn't know is how he plays Castiel in the latter half of season 6. Misha's a good actor, and you could tell by his inflections that he was troubled lying to the Winchesters in those later season 6 episodes. Had Misha been informed that Castiel was to lie to them in 6.03, I think he would have put in some subtle sign that maybe Castiel wasn't entirely being truthful. I definitely think it was poor choice that Misha wasn't aware of what Castiel was doing so he could have altered his performance accordingly. It's either a sign that it wasn't the original intention in 6.03, or it's a sign of poor collaboration between the writers and the actors.

Misha was, according to what I've read though, made aware fairly early on in season 6 for the intention to kill off his character. Originally he was to die during the season 6 finale, but they ended up having him declare himself God instead and delayed his death for 7.02.

Edited by Tralah, May 21, 2012 @ 12:03 PM.

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#4160

saltrounds

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Posted May 21, 2012 @ 12:02 PM

I can maybe see the reasoning (though I disagree with it) for Jared and Jensen not to know what is going on as they were the characters being manipulated (but it really seems a slam against their ability to do their jobs....you know...this thing called ACTING). However, it doesn't make sense that Misha wouldn't know what the hell his character was doing and why. How can you sell a part you're playing if you don't even know the entirety of its scope?

I can almost buy it… IIRC Genevieve Cortese also was kept in the dark wrt Ruby's true motivations, although (and again this is just IIRC) I think it was because Kripke himself may not have made a final decision about having her be evol until the last minute. In her case there was enough of a backstory for it to be believable.

I can even see a reason for them to want to have Collins play it genuine simply so the Big Reveal would be a shocker. But then again, where it falls down (imo) is that if there isn't sufficient other evidence to back up their plot it ends up being unconvincing. It certainly was for me, especially as canon had made it plain Castiel shouldn't even be able to access the cage. It's yet another fail in a list of epic fails in that season from a showrunner who was inept when it came to preserving continuity. Again: just my view.

Had Misha been informed that Castiel was to lie to them in 6.03, I think he would have put in some subtle sign that maybe Castiel wasn't entirely being truthful.

Yes, and I really think that needed to be there.

It still makes utterly no sense to me why Castiel would lie to Dean about rescuing Sam, and Misha played that part so straight that I definitely believe Misha's telling the truth at the convention and was in the dark during the 6.03. I also suspect that Castiel wasn't the original culprit in mind for Sam's soulless resurrection. It makes far more sense to me that Crowley would include saving Sam to sweeten the deal with Castiel, but Crowley would "accidentally" resurrect Sam without his soul, so he'd be more efficient hunter. Castiel would have been too busy waging his Civil War in heaven and not have realized what Crowley had done for awhile. Just my speculation anyway.

Yes: this is exactly how I see it...

Edited by saltrounds, May 21, 2012 @ 12:07 PM.

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#4161

Stormyweather

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Posted May 21, 2012 @ 12:32 PM

I can almost buy itÖ IIRC Genevieve Cortese also was kept in the dark wrt Ruby's true motivations, although (and again this is just IIRC) I think it was because Kripke himself may not have made a final decision about having her be evol until the last minute. In her case there was enough of a backstory for it to be believable.


I don't know about GC but Kripke said in the commentary for the last episode of Season 4 that Ruby's true motivations were in place when the first Ruby was cast in Season 3.
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#4162

lynnea6

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Posted May 21, 2012 @ 12:46 PM

The main reason I believe Misha when he said he didn't know is how he plays Castiel in the latter half of season 6. Misha's a good actor, and you could tell by his inflections that he was troubled lying to the Winchesters in those later season 6 episodes. Had Misha been informed that Castiel was to lie to them in 6.03, I think he would have put in some subtle sign that maybe Castiel wasn't entirely being truthful.


This makes sense. When rewatching Season 6 it bugged me that Cas seemed so convincing in 6.03, whereas later on he appeared to be a rather bad liar (especially in My Heart Will Go On).
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#4163

Blackmantra53

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Posted May 21, 2012 @ 3:12 PM

I don't know about GC but Kripke said in the commentary for the last episode of Season 4 that Ruby's true motivations were in place when the first Ruby was cast in Season 3.

I haven't seen any of the commentary from S4 but I'm sure you are correct and up until the arrival of the fourth Ruby I believe he was sincere.
However, I do remember reading an interview with Cortese in which she stated she was told to play Ruby as a love interest and she made no mention of also bring told to play the character as untrustworthy and using Sam for her own ends. Her performance certainly did not indicate to me at any time that Ruby was anything but sincere in her dedication to Sam and my personal feeling is that Kripke was hedging his bets, hoping the viewers would embrace her and she could become Sam's faithful pet demon. When it became apparent no-one was buying it Ruby suddenly showed her true colors and declared she was so awesome no-one guessed her true motivation, except myself of course and possibly a few million other people.
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#4164

phidra

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Posted May 21, 2012 @ 3:29 PM

When it became apparent no-one was buying it Ruby suddenly showed her true colors and declared she was so awesome no-one guessed her true motivation, except myself of course and possibly a few million other people

Including Dean. LOL
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#4165

Tralah

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Posted May 21, 2012 @ 4:38 PM

I was convinced Ruby was up to no good when I watched season 3, but I started to think that maybe she did have good intentions in season 4. The way she helped them with Anna went a long way for me, and I was also intrigued when she told Dean about she could remember what it was like to be human. I thought the idea of a demon somehow holding on to those memories and not being fully corrupted was interesting to me.

However, I wasn't involved in the online fandom at the time, so I had I been browsing TWoP and other places at the time, I probably could have been persuaded otherwise. I'll now slink back at my embarrassing confession that I was one of the few foolish enough to be fooled and surprised. ;)
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#4166

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Posted May 21, 2012 @ 5:56 PM

Never thought, or felt, that Ruby was doing anything other than leading Sam around by his penis, and enabling him to do everything he wanted to do so he'd be in the perfect position to be Luci's meatsuit. Seriously, she's a demon. I have the same reaction to Crowley and Meg. They have a little more smarts than the average demon, so they're able to act with enlightened self-interest when their goal is roughly in line with others (the guys, the Campbells, the Levis or whomever). But it's not actually a partnership. As soon as either of them are out of danger, expect the double-cross. And I can't believe that lesson hasn't been learned yet. I just pray it isn't revisited during S8. I'm so over "Let's talk to the monster and team up! We need the fire-power!".
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#4167

RestlessThought

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Posted May 21, 2012 @ 8:43 PM

Tralah, my sister told me she was surprised and embarrassed to not have seen it coming too.
I was just disappointed. Like you, from the times Ruby helped, I was hoping she would rise above her species. But no, apparently zebras never change their stripes and demons never stop being evil.

Back to Castiel. I've read claims online by people that they knew Castiel was lying right from the start because he 'looked away every time Sam's soul was mentioned'. I've not rewatched the season to test the theory. I've never believed it, mostly because when I watched the season (which was all at once over a long weekend), I got the impression that it was a last minute decision to make everything come down to Castiel. If there was any lead up to it, I missed it.

Besides, why would Misha himself lie about not knowing? Aren't his lies usually jokes, more obvious and in good fun, than that?

And I also have never heard a good reason as to why Castiel lied to Dean about raising Sam. Though Kira Wills, a Supernatural recapper at a site called Star Pulse, believes Castiel raised Sam without a soul on purpose, so I guess the reason in their headcanon is Sam was raised to hunt Alphas and Cas was lying just to be evil. I thought the show at least made it clear that soulless!Sam had been an accident, but I guess not!

Edited by RestlessThought, May 21, 2012 @ 8:47 PM.

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#4168

hat

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Posted May 21, 2012 @ 8:52 PM

I think Cas being the culprit for souless Sam was a last minute change. Gamble had intended for Sam to be souless for the whole season (thank you gods, for small favors), but there was a change and I guess Gamble's fix was to make the culprit Cas for reasons I'm sure I can guess but it's irrelevant to the story. As it is, the whole thing fell flat, including the senseless souless Sam story.

Cas was never evil, and it really showed in the finale with Cas having so many regrets. Evil doesn't regret anything, and evil usually finds excuses for its decisions. The only amends it ever makes are those that make it feel better about itself. Cas never made excuses, nor blamed anyone for his decisions. He took full blame and is trying to made amends.
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#4169

Observe

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Posted May 22, 2012 @ 5:34 AM

I thought the show at least made it clear that soulless!Sam had been an accident


The show made it totally clear, RestlessThought, so no need to qualify that statement! ;-)
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#4170

Tralah

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Posted May 22, 2012 @ 9:48 AM

Cas was never evil, and it really showed in the finale with Cas having so many regrets. Evil doesn't regret anything, and evil usually finds excuses for its decisions. The only amends it ever makes are those that make it feel better about itself. Cas never made excuses, nor blamed anyone for his decisions. He took full blame and is trying to made amends.


This is well put. I admit I find it rather frustrating when some people who forgive Sam for all the evil and wrong he did that resulted in the apocalypse, and yet they turn around and act like Castiel's actions are beyond redemption. Personally, I love characters that are flawed and make mistakes, and it seems clear to me anyway, that while Castiel made mistakes, his intentions were good. The leviathans were an unfortunate accident resulting from Castiel trying to stop Raphael from restarting the apocalypse. This most inexcusable action of his, in my opinion, was breaking Samís wallósomething which I think he more than made up for in the way he healed Sam.

Sam willingly jumped into the Cage to lock Lucifer away. He had accepted that as his repentance for starting the apocalypse in the first place. The fact that not only was he saved from that fate, but now heís seemingly healed from the worst of the trauma, should be treated as a wonderful unexpected gift that Castiel has given him. Letís face it, even before Cas broke the wall, it was showing signs of crumbling. To the credit of the writers, I think they at least got that part right. We saw Samís speech to Cas in 7.21 where he expresses his concern and gratefulness to Castiel. Breaking Samís wall was wrong for Castiel to do, but I donít think itís unforgivable as Iíve seen some people make it out to be, especially in light of Castielís recent actions.

That said, I can understand why Dean's having such a hard time forgiving him. It can be really tough to forgive someone who has hurt someone you love. I'd love for their time in purgatory together to be the rebuilding of their friendship and trust.
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