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Torchwood: The Arse Spreads Across the Atlantic


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#13111

SDcat2009

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Posted Apr 13, 2012 @ 4:16 PM

Oh I didn't read the synopsis on amazon. I saw it elsewhere. So sorry for that oversight
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#13112

indeed

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Posted Apr 13, 2012 @ 4:55 PM

Well, hopefully Amazon is wrong because that would make more sense!
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#13113

Luckylyn

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Posted Apr 13, 2012 @ 5:16 PM

I'm in the mood to smile, and so I wanted to read the fanfic where John Hart kidnaps Ianto, and they end up on an adventure together. I can't find the link in my favorites, but I think I recommended it here way back when. I can't find my old post, but I was hoping someone might have the link. I'm not sure, but I think the title is Don't You Want to Be One of the Good Guys.

I've got a couple of fic recommendations as a bribe:

You Can Stay and 50 First Dates Torchwood Style

Edited by Luckylyn, Apr 13, 2012 @ 5:17 PM.

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#13114

captanne

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Posted Apr 13, 2012 @ 9:00 PM

Luckylyn as for that particular fanfic, I don't remember it. I don't read many that involve "hijinks" with John Hart. I love his character but for some reason his interacting with Ianto in any other way than pissing on each other, figuratively speaking, doesn't interest me.

Did you check over at the archived Torchwood House? They have a great selection and a terrific index with accurate tags.

Don't go near JolinarJackon's fic I recommended on the last page. Aint' nuthin' cheerful there.

Edited by captanne, Apr 13, 2012 @ 9:28 PM.

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#13115

Luckylyn

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Posted Apr 14, 2012 @ 11:29 AM

I can't seem to find that John Hart fic. I've read some dark John Hart stuff and fun John Hart stuff. I prefer the fun ones cause the dark ones get crazy dark. Do you have recommendations for fun Torchwood fics?
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#13116

SDcat2009

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Posted Apr 14, 2012 @ 11:35 AM

I can't seem to find that John Hart fic. I've read some dark John Hart stuff and fun John Hart stuff. I prefer the fun ones cause the dark ones get crazy dark. Do you have recommendations for fun Torchwood fics?


I read one that was a dark fic but had some dark humor. Parts were definitely rough but it still had that John Hart warped humor. I'll see if I can find it.


This isn't the one above but it's pretty humorous and it's so Ianto and John

http://www.fanfictio...nd_a_hard_place

Edited by SDcat2009, Apr 14, 2012 @ 11:53 AM.

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#13117

Luckylyn

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Posted Apr 14, 2012 @ 12:26 PM

I got a kick out of that.
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#13118

captanne

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Posted Apr 15, 2012 @ 11:33 AM

Isn't she great?!

JolinarJackson, too.

ETA: SDcat2009, I read the opening dialogue of "The Perfect Storm" and can tell immediately it's not my cuppa. Thanks, though!

Luckylyn, this story isn't full of grand hurrahs or wild laughter but I think it's one of the more beautiful ones. It's set just after TYTNW. Time is resetting and they are in the hotel. It's by sanginmychains. (It's divided into two parts. The first is a standalone. The second isn't necessary but takes the story to its logical conclusion and is equally lovely.)http://sanginmychain....com/14517.html

DARK for SDcat2009: THE FOLLOWING LINKS ALL GO TO THE AUTHOR'S INDEX. Sorry, guys, Skellerbvvt uses the old "frames" system and those links all go to her opening page. On the left (the picture of Sarah Michelle Gellar in some sort of filmy crepe thing) -- look up in the left corner. You'll see a selection for "fic". Choose that. The right frame will change and you'll first get her Buffy stories. Scroll down. Torchwood is after Supernatural. There aren't many. But she writes like I think when I'm very serious, tired and also very cranky. It's cold, dark, very clear and rather cruel -- to the characters and the reader.

INDEX PAGE: http://www.ficbitch....gah/index2.html

Set Post-CoE: It's called "Salt the Earth: Five Drabbles on a Theme".

Or her other ficlet: "Monsters Ianto Has Known."

This link is normal and goes straight to the story: mcparrot's first sexual encounter between Jack and Ianto (Lisa is still alive and breathing.)http://mcparrot.live...l.com/4602.html

EETA: Luckylyn I'll look for some fun stuff. I don't have much with John 'cause I keep coming across mostly dark stories with him in them.

Here are some nice ones by Sam Starbuck.

Manchild: http://sam-storytell...org/118867.html
Sleeping My Way to the Top: http://sam-storytell...org/118661.html (bittersweet and adorable)
Compromise: http://sam-storytell...org/124962.html (Not funny, per se, but Ianto has some unforgettable lines.)
Family Secrets: http://sam-storytell...org/145573.html (CoE: Ianto and Rhiannon get tipsy and discuss Jack.)
Trying to Communicate: http://sam-storytell...org/131686.html (The now famous LOLCat crossover that GDL read and commented on at an Australian convention. He liked it.)
On the Run from the Lunar Mafia: http://sam-storytell...org/127382.html (Can you handle Sam's RPF? It's pretty hilarious. Not ever my cup of tea but this is harmless. Mostly.)

EEETA: And, in honour of folks going on to CoE: My personal canon, set after Rhys has the unfortunate description added to his resume, "Cockblocker with Beans" and as Jack and Ianto drive in that ridiculous car to deliver Ianto to his death. Rm's brilliant, short "The Seventh Time Jack Shagged Ianto Silly" (it was written for a challenge and seven different writers created short vignettes of Jack and Ianto together in flagrante delicto -- this was hers.) http://rm.livejournal.com/1914909.html

E4TA: Luckylyn, qafkinnetic recommended this on story finder: http://www.whofic.co...8&warning=Adult See what you think? It's new to me. I've never read it.

E5A: I'm putting this in a second post (maybe it'll let me) for Luckylyn. Ukdramafan found your story for you. "Don't You Want to be on the Good Side, for Once?" Unfortunately the link doesn't work. BUT, I googled the name of the story and found 1. The link doesn't work (LOL) but also, 2. Your original Torchwood TWoP post. http://forums.televi...475&p=13038756 If that doesn't work, go back to post #5477 dated June 25, 2010, second comment from top of page (page 366.)

If you're ever on Torchwood Storyfinder, you might want to go there in the archives, 14 April 2012 and thank ukdramafan. That was very nice of him/her to remember it and post. :-) http://twstoryfinder...read=1#t4334643

Edited by captanne, Apr 15, 2012 @ 2:18 PM.

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#13119

SDcat2009

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Posted Apr 15, 2012 @ 1:33 PM

So because I'm a dork, I was watching a video from JB's appearance at the Chicago con yesterday...

At one point he's talking about the future of TW going forward. He said they are almost finished with the TW novel he and his sister are and he thinks it would make a fantastic movie. So.....yeah....just thought I'd share that tidbit.

Well here's the link


I'm getting ridiculously excited about this novel. And I totally trust JB to do Jack justice.

Over/under on the inclusion of Ianto?

ETA: Captanne: I had the same reaction to the first part of the Perfect Storm. I had to read it in fits and starts but in the end it was a redemption story and it made me cry several times. Grim for sure.


EETA: You know, captanne, we disagree about everything about CoE. But now you have just gone too far. That car is not ridiculous. That car was frigging awesome.At least he arrived at his demise in style. /harumph

Edited by SDcat2009, Apr 15, 2012 @ 2:15 PM.

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#13120

captanne

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Posted Apr 15, 2012 @ 2:14 PM

LOLOL

That car.

Unless I take rm's story as canon and then the car is totally redeemed.

The last line of the very, very brief story:

This moment is nearly all he could have ever asked for: a flash car, a tolerable suit, and I will die smelling of you.


SOB

ETA: Everyone needs a flash hearse, I guess.

Edited by captanne, Apr 15, 2012 @ 2:24 PM.

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#13121

SDcat2009

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Posted Apr 15, 2012 @ 3:25 PM

This

moment is nearly all he could have ever asked for: a flash car, a tolerable suit, and I will die smelling of you.


I love this. So perfect and I never thought about it that way.. I love this idea

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#13122

Luckylyn

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Posted Apr 15, 2012 @ 4:15 PM

I'm excited to see all the recommendations. Thanks!
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#13123

swansong

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Posted Apr 15, 2012 @ 4:19 PM

and I will die smelling of you.



Sadly not if someone's offering Jack beans he won't.
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#13124

SDcat2009

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Posted Apr 15, 2012 @ 6:13 PM

a

nd I will die smelling of you.


Sadly not if someone's offering Jack beans he won't.


I think Jack's smell is all over Ianto when he's dying in his arms......in my head anyway..

As if I couldn't love JB anymore...he's a total fanboy. Look at this video of him meeting Anne Rice....

http://www.youtube.c...eature=youtu.be
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#13125

captanne

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Posted Apr 16, 2012 @ 6:55 AM

Luckylyn, lookie what I found for YOU! http://www.mediafire.../?47xzyj7s37o50

And, swansong, I think Ianto reeks of Jack's pheremones. If only in that moment when he picks up the coat and holds it to his face. That must've been heady. (Obviously, I don't mean that in a Team Innuendo way.) And, I don't mean to get TMI, but he has to smell of him sometime. Reckoning they had intercourse at any time and I think we can safely assume that. Otherwise a hella lot of fan fiction writers are "barking up the wrong tree."

I don't think I've ever debated whether Jack and Ianto consummated their relationship. That was sort of a given.

Owen certainly made it clear with "You're just his part time shag"; and, Ianto's reaction, "No, I'm not just his part time shag. He needs me!" implies they've "shagged" which is Britspeak for "had intercourse."

Also, we had Johnny's lovely observation in CoE, "So, Ianto. You take it up the arse?" http://en.wikipedia...._it_up_the_arse (If anyone is offended by my observations here, then you really need to ask yourself why you're visiting a site called "The Arse Spreads Across the Atlantic.")

CoE: Nice. :-\ (That's sarcasm. There is very little "nice" about CoE.)

If what rm wrote in her drabble happened (and in my canon I pray to God that it did) then Ianto smells of Jack. No doubt about it.

Sigh.

(I'm an old romantic, y'all. I may only show a cold, dead heart but, really, I'm all for the schmaltz.)

Edited by captanne, Apr 16, 2012 @ 8:34 AM.

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#13126

Luckylyn

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Posted Apr 16, 2012 @ 8:27 AM

Captanne, I adore you!
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#13127

captanne

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Posted Apr 16, 2012 @ 8:51 AM

Takes a bow.

Or, in my Grandmother's native tongue, "Croeso."

Edited by captanne, Apr 16, 2012 @ 9:15 AM.

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#13128

swansong

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Posted Apr 16, 2012 @ 4:59 PM

I don't think I've ever debated whether Jack and Ianto consummated their relationship. That was sort of a given.



I don't think I was debating whether they'd had sex or not. I'm sure they did and I'd like to think that COE was the only time Jack's libido was felled by beans ( even being hunted and on the run certainly didn't quell it in MD) and considering what little else Ianto seemed to be getting out of the relationship most of the time I'd like to believe he was at least getting great sex out of it.



I think Ianto reeks of Jack's pheremones



If he did they certainly didn't render him irresitable the way they apparently did Jack since the only person who ever found him irresistable was Jack which then are we supposed to assume that Jack was only responding to his own pheromones on Ianto?

Edited by swansong, Apr 16, 2012 @ 5:03 PM.

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#13129

captanne

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Posted Apr 16, 2012 @ 7:35 PM

I like to think that neither of them ~needed~ the pheremone rush.

OTH, it probably didn't hurt Ianto to go with Jack and take the last step of -- not only physical and mental attraction -- acting on that attraction.

If CoE is to be taken into account, Ianto was never attracted to or involved with another man. "Only Jack". (Which brings me back to a page ago when I recommended that terrifyingly horrible little ficlet by skellerbvvt in which Jack goes back in time just after CoE and meets the whole team and Rose on separate occasions. When he meets Ianto, he realizes he was Ianto's first and only male sex partner. When he meets Rose, he kisses her and then strangles her to death with his bare hands.)

So, I would suggest that Ianto was taken in at first by Jack's pheremones -- we know that as canon from "Fragments". "Do you always smell this good?" And, perhaps (conjecture now) it was the pheremone rush that sent him over that delightful edge.

I don't think Jack ever indicated he needed the force of pheremones to be interested (or, as JB puts it, "int'rested") in sex.

ETA: Sorry if I misunderstood about Rhys' talent as a "Cockblocker with Food", and Jack's OOC and completely baffling "Oopsy, Ianto. Thanks for the offer of a quick shag with a guy I used to seem to like, but supper's almost on!" swansong. I thought you were saying that, unless Jack smelt of beans he never got laid. Or something. I don't know what the hell I thought. But, if it led innocently enough to a discussion of Jack and Ianto (S2, preferably) then I'm perfectly content.

Edited by captanne, Apr 17, 2012 @ 7:48 AM.

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#13130

SDcat2009

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Posted Apr 17, 2012 @ 12:02 PM

So the Barrowmans Torchwood novel synopsis is up on Amazon. Not the best worded synopsis but if the plot is somewhat accurate this has a lot of potential ....


It starts with a series of unexplained events. Earth tremors across the globe. People being driven insane by their heightened and scrambled senses. And the world is starting to notice - the number one Twitter trend is #TheLoco. Governments and scientists are bewildered and silent. The world needs Torchwood, but there's not much of Torchwood left. Captain Jack has tracked the problem to its source: a village in Peru, where he's uncovered evidence of alien involvement. Back in Cardiff, Gwen Cooper has discovered something lurking inside the Torchwood software - something alien and somehow connected to Jack. If the world is to be restored, she has to warn him - but she's quickly becoming a victim of the madness, too!


nd considering what little else Ianto seemed to be getting out of the relationship most of the time I'd like to believe he was at least getting great sex out of it.


Wait, wait, wait. Are you talking CoE or what? Because as of EoD it was clear they were emotionally together not just sexually and certainly throughout s2....
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#13131

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Posted Apr 17, 2012 @ 2:04 PM

Oh, for the love of Mike, I'm posting from flight level 340 in light turbulence on my way to Dallas to make a business speech. Modern technology blows my mind.

ANYhoodle, I think (I could be very, very wrong) that swansong was referring to CoE. I know if I'm talking about Jack and Ianto getting along like a house o' fire, I'm talking about S2. If I'm talking about weird, whiplash "He loves me, He loves me not" bullshit, I'm referring to CoE.

ETA: Anne waves from a very high altitude at SDcat2009 where, if she elects to chuck something at me (preferably marshmallows), she can't reach me. LOLOL

Edited by captanne, Apr 17, 2012 @ 2:06 PM.

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#13132

SDcat2009

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Posted Apr 17, 2012 @ 2:10 PM

I'm talking about S2. If I'm talking about weird, whiplash "He loves me, He loves me not" bullshit, I'm referring to CoE.


Even if there was the "whiplash" I still believed they were in it emotionally not just sexually. If he wasn't in it emotionally he wouldn't even ask the question.

But I think it was pretty clear in the kiss goodbye before Jack gets blown to bits that they are more than just sex partners....


/reminds captanne that I played softball and can throw far and on target to home plate. Your "at altitude" means nothing!!!

Safe travels!
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#13133

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Posted Apr 17, 2012 @ 2:19 PM

Yeah, but, marshmallows are notoriously not very aerodynamic. Marshmallows, right? Right?

Not "hard" softballs? Those things can raise a welt.

ETA: That kiss was one for the ages. No doubt about it. It warmed my heart even as my heart was racing for the exciting plot line. I agree. But that was early on, the weird exchange in the hospital with Ianto being all girlie (okay, "unsure of himself", hork) was just a bit out-of-left-field* rather than an omen.

Jack hadn't been blown to smithereens and THEN buried in cement and done the whole "no sex, please, we must eat Rhys' beans" thing. Along with all the other "something smells bad" and "what the hell have you been smoking?" looks he kept giving Ianto.

*To keep the baseball metaphor going. Go Nats!

Edited by captanne, Apr 17, 2012 @ 2:50 PM.

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#13134

SDcat2009

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Posted Apr 17, 2012 @ 3:13 PM

Yeah, but, marshmallows are notoriously not very aerodynamic. Marshmallows, right? Right?


Sure, but mine have been in the cupboard for about 10 years......

Jack hadn't been blown to smithereens and THEN buried in cement and done the whole "no sex, please, we must eat Rhys' beans" thing. Along with all the other "something smells bad" and "what the hell have you been smoking?" looks he kept giving Ianto.


But that's all kind of not true re beanblocked. As soon as they discussed it, the information started coming through about the other people that helped Jack in 1965 and that became the focus. Like literally in the same scene...

hen it was off to the death races for the rest of the series.

The hospital conversation and the kiss happened before Jack was blown up.
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#13135

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Posted Apr 17, 2012 @ 3:17 PM

Yep, my timing is right.

The kiss was just before Jack was blown up. It was "Get on that Invisible Lift right-the-fuck-now; I'll be fine."

(Oh, I see the confusion -- I was smushing all the weirdness together as one. I wasn't listing things in order of occurrence. 'Cause that wasn't necessary for the point I was making. I was just listing all the frickin' whiplash moments. Of which the absolute God damned worse was the scene from the warehouse in FOotR. I thought Jack was actually going to spit at him. I don't have a whole lot of protective moments when it comes to Ianto because I view him as an adult man who can more than take care of himself but I wanted to slap the shit out of Jack in that very moment.)

Edited by captanne, Apr 17, 2012 @ 3:22 PM.

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#13136

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Posted Apr 17, 2012 @ 3:25 PM

Of which the absolute God damned worse was the scene from the warehouse in FOotR. I thought Jack was actually going to spit at him.


What? At what point? I don't ...what?
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#13137

captanne

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Posted Apr 17, 2012 @ 9:44 PM

When he finally snarked at Ianto about Alice and Stephen. (Of course, Ianto got his own in, too. "I tell you everything." No, Ianto, you don't. You clearly didn't learn your lesson from Leeesaaahhh because you were STILL lying to him and you died lying to him about your Father in one of the most romantic, cute moments in the entire show. Your Father wasn't a Master Tailor -- he was a menswear clerk at the UK equivalent of Sears -- and you never told him the truth. And then, justifiably petulant, you lie to him again and say "I tell you everything." No, kiddo, you are such a pathological liar that you even lie about lying.)

Needn't have been, of course. But RTD felt that destroying Ianto wasn't enough by making him lose the SUV in his own neighborhood, be defeated by suppertime, lie to Jack about "not" lying, and then foolishly storm into a place he knew he didn't belong. RTD had to ruin his memory as well. That's so easy when the dead can't defend themselves.

We've been 'round about this before. I'm not watching CoE again to relive this pain in my heart.

RTD is home taking care of very real and very non-fictional horrors. I don't want to get all riled up about something horrid he did to a fabrication of his imagination that I, for some inexplicable reason, grew fond of.

ETA: Many years ago (wow, can it be almost 16 since 1995?) I remember posting on an LFN board (Heyn'sHussies for those who were around in those days) -- about how much I loved "Michael Married With Kid" (MMWK) as a twist in LFN. Because that's where I had come into the series. I loooooved it. I still do. It presented the characters with a head twisting turn that RTD can only dream of. It gave the actors a great chance to shine and the story was amazing.

But the folks who had been with the show since Series One and Two, hated it with a flaming passion. And I just didn't get it. I really didn't.

And people were of mixed minds, too. They ran the gamut. (And, stupefyingly enough, even when the show really had gone to shit in Series 5 -- real, bona fide shite -- there were still True Believers who had started watching during the S4 "Gelman Process" -- remember that LFNers? OMFG.)

But I loved that friction' MMWK twist so darned much.

Well, now the foot is snugly on the other foot and now I understand how they felt.

Live and learn.

I get the difference and the profound effect of how people view a series based on what season -- or even what episode -- they come in on. And Torchwood is no different. (Neither, really is Who. I still love and adore Four and Nine. Ten can take a long walk off a very short pier. And Eleven. Oh, Eleven drives me nuts.) If people fall in love with the show, they seem to fall in love with what brought them to it. And no amount of bitter complaining by folks who have other opinions will change anything.

It works both ways. Now I see how that happens from personal experience. (So, all you fans of LFN who couldn't stand MMWK, I apologize to you for insisting it was brilliant. I think it was and I probably always will. I even called it "Shakespearean". And I still think so. But I get your angle, now, too.)

Edited by captanne, Apr 17, 2012 @ 10:39 PM.

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#13138

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Posted Apr 17, 2012 @ 11:08 PM

I just never thought once that Jack was going to spit on him. That's just totally harsh. Nor did I think he was even upset with Ianto. I think he was just so upset that everything was falling apart.


To elaborate, I think Jack's universe was imploding with the news that 456 were back. And that his family was kidnapped. I think he was irritated but not with Ianto but just everything that happened.

Edited by SDcat2009, Apr 17, 2012 @ 11:18 PM.

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#13139

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Posted Apr 17, 2012 @ 11:59 PM

Needn't have been, of course. But RTD felt that destroying Ianto wasn't enough by making him lose the SUV in his own neighborhood, be defeated by suppertime, lie to Jack about "not" lying, and then foolishly storm into a place he knew he didn't belong. RTD had to ruin his memory as well. That's so easy when the dead can't defend themselves.



I have watched COE a couple of times since it first aired and I'm still of the opinion that the show wanted the audience both new and old to be ultimately left with a mostly negative opinion of him. I just can't see a compelling reason for the reveal at that point otherwise. He's dead. It's not really a necessary piece of information to what's going on at that point, it's not about character growth since it's not as if he'll get the chance to redeem himself since, you know, he's already dead (and in a pretty dumb fashion imo) and it's basically the last word we're supposed to get on him.


I think he was irritated but not with Ianto but just everything that happened


I think he was irritated with the situation and with Ianto for deigning to question him at that point.

ANYhoodle, I think (I could be very, very wrong) that swansong was referring to CoE. I know if I'm talking about Jack and Ianto getting along like a house o' fire, I'm talking about S2. If I'm talking about weird, whiplash "He loves me, He loves me not" bullshit, I'm referring to CoE.


Heh, yeah I was jokingly referring to the weirdness of Jack's libido and the fact that unconsciousness (kissing Ianto in Cyberwoman) and being hounded and on the run (MD) don't seem to dampen it, but Rhys having beans on apparently will. (yeah that moment still makes me roll my eyes).

As for Jack's feelings for Ianto I go back and forth on that. I'm not entirely sold that we were supposed to think Jack's feelings were that serious in s2. That he was fond of him, ,at least most of the time, yeah, but more than that is definitely up for debate. But then again I'm not sure the show did a good job of selling his investment in the relationship or even why he seemed so keen to get back into it in s2, which I think is mostly incidental in the first two seasons, but problematic in COE since I do think we're at least supposed to feel for Jack when Ianto dies and that's kind of hard to do if you're not exactly convinced Jack's behaviour in COE screams "I love this man." But then again maybe it doesn't matter. The show seemed determined to leave their relationship as mostly blank space so while that might have made frustrating and disappointing viewing (at least for me), the positive is we get to chose our own adventure where they're concerned so we can fill in their feeings how ever we like whether positively or negatively.
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#13140

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Posted Apr 18, 2012 @ 8:42 AM

Swansong, I completely agree about the lack of commitment with Jack and Ianto -- and I'd add that it was both in the meta and reflected in the writing. The acting in S2 went all in, I think. But it was especially baffling in CoE. I also think that Ianto's death didn't make him a hero; it made him a fool. And it didn't serve Jack too well, either. I do agree that a new viewer (or an old viewer) was supposed to come away from CoE with a "mostly negative" view of Ianto. And to hit him (club him? cudgel him?) post-mortem was the lowest blow of all. Particularly, as you so rightly point out, with a comment that has absolutely nothing to do with plot advancement -- except to prove that he's an insecure lying liar who lies even about lying. And leaves him with no chance to redeem himself.

In fact, the writers at that point were the only folks who had the power to redeem him and -- silence.

Where we diverge slightly is that I do think RTD (reluctantly -- or maybe he'd just released the reins a bit) and JB were on board for a full fledged "relationship" in S2. I didn't remember that from my first viewing.

But, man the rewatch here pleasantly surprised me. I'm not one to be delusional and I seemed to remember that Jack and Ianto were a pretty hot item in S2 but couldn't really "prove it" (if that's even possible -- see Bayliss' admonition above the line here) but the rewatch really cemented my accurate memory.

I would have to go back in our "archives" of the rewatch to remember all the points we made during S2 -- but I came away with a big ole warm fuzzy (heh, minds out of the gutter, folks) about Jack and Ianto. I knew there was a reason I was so attached to that relationship.

And, as I mentioned on another board the other day (looking for Luckylyn's fanfic), Ianto somehow crawled under our skin here at Chez Captanne and really became part of the family. To see him killed in such a manner and then his memory desecrated really hurt.

Call us weird. We can take it.

In the history of fiction, plenty of audiences have taken a shine to plenty of characters -- from Gilgamesh and Inkedu on. We're in good company.

PS: My talk about LFN above may have violated the board-on-board rule here at TWoP but it wasn't about this board or even a TWoP board so, technically maybe not. In any event, I think stories are helpful. Sorry if I did.

Edited by captanne, Apr 18, 2012 @ 9:04 AM.

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