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#12391

randomchance

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Posted Nov 18, 2012 @ 8:21 PM

While Penny hasn't been shown to be a cheater, I don't think Leonard's insecurities were completely unfounded. Penny has never been as invested in their relationship as him.

So his approach is to harass, nag and bully her into being more invested ... and when this drives her away, he'll say that she's the one who should have tried harder.

Edited by randomchance, Nov 18, 2012 @ 8:22 PM.

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#12392

Oldernotwiser

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Posted Nov 18, 2012 @ 8:55 PM

I thought of the Ross/Rachel parallel, as well...I really hope the writers don't go there. Neither character ever bounced back from that-- they both just became increasingly obnoxious.
It seems like sitcom couples all have to have their assigned shtick. With Shamy it's the lack of sex and with Howard/Bernie it's his mommy issues and with Lenny it's their back/forth dance of come here, no go away.
I'm still hoping to see something new for all of them this season.
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#12393

LoneHaranguer

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Posted Nov 18, 2012 @ 10:21 PM

I actually think it varies by episode in terms of her looks now.

When she is dressed for work, she is above average, not great looking. When she wears her nicest outfits though and makes some effort to look nice, I don't see her being any less attractive now. Its just she has matured physically and no longer looks like a college aged female and looks more like a late20s/ early 30s female (I have no idea how old she really is now or was when the show started)

They dialed down Penny's look when the writers needed to sell the idea that she wasn't as attractive as Priya, and never really cranked things back up, so she's not dressed in a flattering way as often as she used to be. You're right that if they need her looking hot again, it'll probably be with different clothing because Penny's not 22 any more.
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#12394

Homily

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Posted Nov 18, 2012 @ 10:25 PM

You're right that if they need her looking hot again, it'll probably be with different clothing because Penny's not 22 any more.

Does someone at 26 dress substantially different than someone at 22?
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#12395

SashaVanGenius

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Posted Nov 19, 2012 @ 4:51 AM

Depends on the person - I'm 26 and pretty much this year decided that I don't like the same styles as I used to. I tend to deliberately go for more professional, adult looking clothing that is less revealing. At 22 I still pretty much dressed like a teenager. At 26 I realised I was growing up and wanted to reflect that in my clothes.
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#12396

alllie

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Posted Nov 19, 2012 @ 12:05 PM

Kaley Cuoco is supposed to be 27 but I don't really believe that. 37, yeah. I remember when James Marsters (Spike on Buffy) was saying he was 10 years younger than he was. So actor ages are often faked. But Cuoco hasn't been dressed or made up as well as she used to be. They are not even keeping her hair as blond. Maybe to make the relationship less unrealistic. The waitress and the physicist? Penny would be doing well to get Leonard. And he would be condemning (probably) his kids to mediocrity. I was thinking her failing looks were just her getting older, which she may be, but it's also clear they are not trying to keep her as cute looking as they used to. On some episodes she looks downright middle-aged.

As much as I found Johnny Galecki (37) adorable as David on Roseanne, I've never liked him on BBT. Maybe because I like Sheldon and Leonard and all the guys are so mean to him. Because of his lack of social awareness, Sheldon usually doesn't notice. When Sheldon is mean to someone he rarely knows he's doing it. But when Leonard, Howard and Raj are mean to Sheldon, they know they are doing it.
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#12397

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Posted Nov 19, 2012 @ 12:33 PM

Maybe because I like Sheldon and Leonard and all the guys are so mean to him

They live with him, they hang out with him, they let him dictate movie night, food, they cater to his weird details...I think they are actually quite nice to Sheldon. They rag on him sometimes, but Sheldon does as much or worse back so I don't see that as a problem.

I think Kaley can look good, but sometimes she doesn't look as good as she could. I'm guessing that's a consequence both of getting older and the show's wardrobe decisions. And her facial expressions. I think she looks better when she is allowed to smile and be happy. As most of us do, actually.
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#12398

jch323

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Posted Nov 19, 2012 @ 12:37 PM

Kaley Cuoco is supposed to be 27 but I don't really believe that. 37, yeah. I remember when James Marsters (Spike on Buffy) was saying he was 10 years younger than he was. So actor ages are often faked.

Well, a record of her as a child actor does exist and proves her age.
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#12399

Homily

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Posted Nov 19, 2012 @ 12:47 PM

The waitress and the physicist? Penny would be doing well to get Leonard. And he would be condemning (probably) his kids to mediocrity.

One of the strengths of this show IMO is that it shows that simply having above average intelligence is no guarantee of happiness or of success. Leonard is almost consistently shown as not being able to measure up to his smarter siblings and that even though he has a phd he is not doing cutting edge research in his chosen field. In that way I think he and Penny are very similar, they have big dreams but they can't ever quite reach the goals they've set for themselves. But they both are happy for the most part with what they've got. Anyway IMO Leonard would be lucky to get Penny and to be able to have a family with her and I think he knows it. I hope when the show ends that it ends with them together.

Edited by Homily, Nov 19, 2012 @ 12:49 PM.

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#12400

Oldernotwiser

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Posted Nov 19, 2012 @ 12:49 PM

IMHO, they all get their shots in at each other, even Bernadette who's pretty much a sweetheart.
As for Sheldon, my favorite description is that line of Bernadette's : "Sheldon doesn't know when he's being mean because the part of his brain that should know is getting a wedgie from the rest of his brain."
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#12401

ari333

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Posted Nov 19, 2012 @ 12:56 PM

Kaley's DOB is listed as 11-30-85. She was on, "Northern Exposure" in 1990, I believe. She looked about 5 years old in the photos, but I suppose she could have been 7 or 8 and passed for 5. :) (Heh, passed for 5 - that sounds weird typing it.) So if she's shaving off any years as an adult it's probably only 2 or 3, if that.
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#12402

alllie

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Posted Nov 19, 2012 @ 12:58 PM

Leonard is almost consistently shown as not being able to measure up to his smarter siblings and that even though he has a phd he is not doing cutting edge research in his chosen field. He'd be lucky to get Penny and to be able to have a family with her and I think he knows it.


I guess this shows there are different social milieus.

To me a waitress, even a pretty one, is a very low status occupation. A PhD physicist is very high status. To me for Leonard to marry Penny, he would have to choose beneath him. She's not successful in any way. She's not particularly sweet or sensitive or fun or anything but transiently pretty. Which won't last much longer. She's not even making minimum wage. She has NO area of competence. Not even as a homemaker. Now if Leonard loves her then he loves her. He's screwed. But she's never gonna make him happy, even make a good home for him, or be his intellectual partner. If they married within a few years she'd be the formerly pretty woman who lived in his house and was a millstone around his neck.
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#12403

Homily

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Posted Nov 19, 2012 @ 1:13 PM

To me a waitress, even a pretty one, is a very low status occupation. A PhD physicist is very high status.


I guess I must run with a low status crowd since most of the people I know have worked in the service industry at one time or another but I don't know any physicists. Oh well, I'll cope. Seriously what does that have to do with anything? Lots of people work as waitresses or the equivalent while they wait for something better to come along. Penny wants to be an actress (based on what they show of her acting I think she's doomed to failure) but they do show she aspires to something more than the Cheesecake Factory. Further they have shown Leonard linking up with "high status" women and it's never really worked out.
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#12404

Oldernotwiser

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Posted Nov 19, 2012 @ 1:24 PM

Bernadette was a waitress while she was in school, too.
I don't really get the impression that "status" matters to this bunch of lovable geeks, which might be one of the few good things about never being one of the cool kids.
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#12405

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Posted Nov 19, 2012 @ 1:48 PM

They live with him, they hang out with him, they let him dictate movie night, food, they cater to his weird details...I think they are actually quite nice to Sheldon. They rag on him sometimes, but Sheldon does as much or worse back so I don't see that as a problem.


Exactly. Realistically, Sheldon is lucky anyone puts up with him at all. Any grief they give him is far outweighed by the kindnesses they do for him (and their basic forbearance).
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#12406

alllie

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Posted Nov 19, 2012 @ 2:13 PM

Lots of people work as waitresses or the equivalent while they wait for something better to come along.


While they work to make something better of their lives. While Penny waits for something better to come along. Like it is gonna fall out of the sky. Leonard is the something better. If she's lucky.

Penny wants to be an actress


But she doesn't want it very much. Apparently she thought she would show up in LA and just because she was pretty, she'd soon be rich and famous. They never show her going to classes, rarely going on auditions, working in unpaid productions, honing her craft, or even hanging out with other actors. She's in no way serious about being an actor.

Bernadette was a waitress while she was in school, too.


Yes, while she was in school. While she was working to better herself. And now she has her doctorate. And is no longer a waitress.

I don't really get the impression that "status" matters to this bunch of lovable geeks, which might be one of the few good things about never being one of the cool kids.


But everyone BUT Penny has worked very hard to get an advanced education and is still working in research. One of these things is not like the other. One of these things doesn't belong. Penny is the loser. Penny has gone from waitress to what, bartender. A bartender who drinks more and more. She should have figured out she wasn't gonna be an actress and gone back to school to try to learn to do SOMETHING. Or she's gonna be standing on her feet for the next 40 years, waiting on strangers. While she's young and pretty she'll get good tips (though considering how she lives, not that good) but as she gets older she won't. She'll be working in a diner making less than minimum wage, looking back on Leonard as the one chance she had for a better life.

Edited by alllie, Nov 19, 2012 @ 2:15 PM.

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#12407

CherryAmes

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Posted Nov 19, 2012 @ 2:32 PM

While they work to make something better of their lives. While Penny waits for something better to come along. Like it is gonna fall out of the sky. Leonard is the something better. If she's lucky.

See I come from this another way, if Leonard is lucky Penny will stay in his life. He wants to be loved. He didn't get that from his parents and so far he hasn't gotten it from any of the other women who've come in and out of his life. With Penny he has a chance to have a loving relationship with someone who cares about him and who also respects what he does for a living (unlike his own mother who can't pass up a chance to compare him to his more successful brother and sister).
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#12408

ikar

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Posted Nov 19, 2012 @ 2:35 PM

Penny wants to be an actress/ but they do show she aspires to something more than the Cheesecake Factory.

If this were a deeper show, I'd give the writers credit for showing both characters as deeply flawed, because neither of them comes off particularly well.

It's interesting reading posts about takes on the characters, but I do think you've all given much more thought to their lives/ work/ relationships than the writers have. For instance, I can't believe Penny is still at CCF, and lives in Pasadena. If she were like 20-something actresses in LA, she'd be living someplace else, and going to the gym far more often. I can't believe any one of the "doctors" haven't purchased a house (they don't seem to be money smart imo) and for Sheldon, something near the Gold line (LA subway and it's like a train!)

This show is so successful - money and ratings- I bet they have the money to make a new set so Penny could waitress at a better place -- but they won't. She's stuck there. I can't see TPTB even let them grow out and up. When Seinfeld got more money, the characters went all over, they had street scenes, walking scenes, wherever George worked, Elaine's various jobs, yogurt stores, Top-o-the muffin, Soup Nazi, etc. But I don't sense anything's gonna change much for this group, their sets, their lives, their jobs and interests. I find myself bored with the show; particularly Raj and Penny- she especially should be meeting and interacting with more people.

An incredible thing about ALL the repeats - TBS and local channels- is just how little has changed in six years. The recent show where Howard had his sob story about leaving his mom's house.. Ugh. He went to the moon, but they're just not gonna let him live a life now. His mom is just a sitcom joke contrivance, not a mother. How many more years has this show been renewed?
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#12409

CherryAmes

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Posted Nov 19, 2012 @ 2:40 PM

I can't believe any one of the "doctors" haven't purchased a house (they don't seem to be money smart imo) and for Sheldon, something near the Gold line (LA subway and it's like a train!)


This reminds me of something I've wondered about before, how much money are these guys pulling down? The impression I have is that they're doing ok, well enough to indulge their hobbies, to eat out or take in most of their meals and to not worry about paying the bills but not really enough to be considered well to do. At least not in the LA area anyway.

Howard in particular should have a nice little nest egg socked away given he's lived at home all those years yet when money is an issue he talks about cashing in bonds he got for his bar mitzvah.
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#12410

alllie

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Posted Nov 19, 2012 @ 2:46 PM

An incredible thing about ALL the repeats - TBS and local channels- is just how little has changed in six years.


It's like they are trying to convince us that instead of 5-6 years passing, it's only been one year. So of course it's okay that not much has changed, cause it hasn't been long.

Apparently time moves differently for them.

See I come from this another way, if Leonard is lucky Penny will stay in his life. He wants to be loved. He didn't get that from his parents and so far he hasn't gotten it from any of the other women who've come in and out of his life. With Penny he has a chance to have a loving relationship with someone who cares about him and who also respects what he does for a living (unlike his own mother who can't pass up a chance to compare him to his more successful brother and sister).


Okay. That's a good point. And if Penny loved Leonard that might help make him feel better and more secure. But when Penny and Leonard were together before she didn't respect what he did for a living and it grated on him how little she knew, about ANYTHING but popular culture.

Edited by alllie, Nov 19, 2012 @ 2:49 PM.

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#12411

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Posted Nov 19, 2012 @ 3:14 PM

Apparently time moves differently for them.

Like a cartoon!

I think they have let Howard move on in his life. They haven't let him move out of his mothers house (because some people apparently find his mother hilarious), but they let him get married, move up in his work life and just generally mature emotionally. I think that's great. I just wish they could do that with some of the other characters.

Realistically, they probably would not all still be living in crappy appartments, although maybe they would until they got married. Maybe that's why they don't let Penny/Leonard get married, although they would be easy since they could just move Leonard across the hall. Or swap with Sheldon.

Raj is the one that I find most unreasonable, actually. Raj is rich, right? He likes nice things. He would buy a nice place, not a crappy teeny apartment. In fact, that would give him something to do! They really have kept him most stagnant in his life. At least Leonard has been able to have relationships, as has Sheldon of all people. Raj is still the same as he was when the show first started.
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#12412

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Posted Nov 19, 2012 @ 3:23 PM

It was mentioned up-thread a-ways that as University scientists and researchers - they are NOT professors NOR teachers - they don't pull down all that much cash. We ASSUME that because they're "Doctors" they should be making "Doctor" money.

The only one who does is Bernadette. And maybe Amy. See, Amy has simple tastes, so we have no idea how much money she makes, but she has her own lab so she's not poor, and Bernadette was head-hunted by a huge Pharmaceutical(sp?) company and bought Howard an 80-thousand-dollar Rolex with PART (Part!) of the signing bonus.

Leonard & the Boys aren't *that* rich. Even Leonard's Mother (curse her) mentioned that, with such an advanced degree, his skills were under-utilized. Her kind doesn't fathom doing something as "meaningless" as experimental physics, where your results really mean squat, for a living. The guys do what they love. They are lucky enough to follow their academic Passions and do what they love for a living. Imagine waking up every day, excited to get to work and being a little scandalized that they PAY YOU to do that!

Not for the money. Never for the money. Sheldon even said once "If I could AFFORD TO LIVE BY MYSELF I wouldn't have you here..." To Leonard.
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#12413

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Posted Nov 19, 2012 @ 3:28 PM

Raj is the one that I find most unreasonable, actually. Raj is rich, right? He likes nice things. He would buy a nice place, not a crappy teeny apartment.

I didn't think his apartment looked crappy and he does live alone which is more than the other guys do so I think that does show he has some money to spend. I haven't seen all the shows so maybe this gets addressed but Raj's status in the US is a little precarious as well isn't it? A few seasons ago he almost had to move back to India when the funding for his job disappeared. He may not want to buy property until he knows he can stay permanently.
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#12414

umlautless

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Posted Nov 19, 2012 @ 3:49 PM

An incredible thing about ALL the repeats - TBS and local channels- is just how little has changed in six years.

It's like they are trying to convince us that instead of 5-6 years passing, it's only been one year. So of course it's okay that not much has changed, cause it hasn't been long.


I think some of that is the nature of the beast with TV. On Friends, people complained that the characters grew too much over the run of the show - but it started when they were ~25 until they were ~35, and that's a period of growth for most people; if the show stayed static - like BBT - people also complain.

With respect to Penny, and career prospects as a waitress - plenty of people make a career in food service. They tend to move up in terms of quality of restaurant or responsibility (going from waitstaff to bartender to manager; moving from a chain to more upscale bistros). I think she still wants to be an actress, which is why she's probably not thinking about those opportunities (plus the jokes about how she's not good at her job), but if she wanted to, many people turn it into a very successful career.

This reminds me of something I've wondered about before, how much money are these guys pulling down?


As it happens, CalTech is hiring for research scientist (staff; not academic faculty) and the salary range listed was 60-85k. Regarding housing, I've sort of assumed that Raj's parents would bought him a condo, and he just calls it an apartment - half the time he has sort of flaunted his family's wealth to impress people, and about half the time he seems like he tries to down play it. Early on Sheldon said he couldn't afford rent without Leonard, and that while their salary may have increased, they just haven't thought about revisiting living arrangements.
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#12415

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Posted Nov 19, 2012 @ 4:08 PM

She should have figured out she wasn't gonna be an actress and gone back to school to try to learn to do SOMETHING.

She has. She's only enrolled in one course right now, but it's not unreasonable to take things slow in going back.
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#12416

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Posted Nov 19, 2012 @ 4:09 PM

They live with him, they hang out with him, they let him dictate movie night, food, they cater to his weird details...I think they are actually quite nice to Sheldon. They rag on him sometimes, but Sheldon does as much or worse back so I don't see that as a problem.


Exactly. Realistically, Sheldon is lucky anyone puts up with him at all. Any grief they give him is far outweighed by the kindnesses they do for him (and their basic forbearance).


I also feel that they put up with Sheldon to an unbelievable degree and most of the time go along with his self centered demands. Lots of posters say that Sheldon is so unaware of his faults that we should take that into consideration when assessing him.

However, when he wanted to meet Stephen Hawking, he knew exactly how to try to cozy up to Howard, how to do things that pleased Howard and in general tried to be nice to him. Sheldon did not have any problem doing the 'right' thing and acting pleasant when there was something he wanted. Also concerning Howard, when the FBI agent came to ask questions about Howard's behavior and background, the only things that Sheldon had to say about him were terribly negative (although very silly). Howard broke Sheldon's dvd case, Howard hacked some board and changed Sheldon's nickname, etc.

I don't feel that Sheldon is all that unaware of his actions and responses to things. I think his self centeredness is so overwhelming that his needs and feelings are all that are important to him. Most of the time he knows exactly what he is doing. He is aware that his remarks are insulting and derogatory to others, but he doesn't care. Sheldon is all that matters to Sheldon....
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#12417

dustylil

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Posted Nov 19, 2012 @ 4:13 PM

Sheldon even said once "If I could AFFORD TO LIVE BY MYSELF I wouldn't have you here..." To Leonard.

Yet Sheldon also has a drawer with a large number of uncashed cheques, including pay cheques as I recall.

What Sheldon lacks are not the financial resouces to live by himself, but the life skills to navigate day to day existence. Leonard - the chauffeur, take-out food deliverer, and go-fer - provides much of that.
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#12418

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Posted Nov 19, 2012 @ 4:59 PM

What Sheldon lacks are not the financial resouces to live by himself, but the life skills to navigate day to day existence. Leonard - the chauffeur, take-out food deliverer, and go-fer - provides much of that.

This is true by the time we see the show in "real" time but it's evident from the flashback episode that there was a time when Sheldon really couldn't afford the apartment if he lived alone. He does take advantage of Leonard to be his all round go-fer but in part I think that whether he likes it or not he really does need human companionship.
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#12419

alrightchuck

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Posted Nov 19, 2012 @ 5:17 PM

She'll be working in a diner making less than minimum wage, looking back on Leonard as the one chance she had for a better life.


This is totally irrelevant to the discussion but I feel compelled to point out that waiters in California make minimum wage + tips, which is why it's not entirely implausible that Penny can afford that apartment. I have the say the thought of being a server for six years, at the same restaurant no less to be pretty depressing. Penny's character has become sort of depressing, the writers seriously need to throw her a bone and get her out the cheesecake factory.

Honestly, though, I enjoy BBT for what it is, a pretty formulaic sitcom...I think trying to find too much depth or realism in it is a useless exercise.
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#12420

alllie

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Posted Nov 19, 2012 @ 7:31 PM

I think they have let Howard move on in his life. They haven't let him move out of his mothers house (because some people apparently find his mother hilarious), but they let him get married, move up in his work life and just generally mature emotionally.


I suspect they did this because they had written Howard so slimely he was repellent. Since he got together with Bernadette he's tolerable.

Also concerning Howard, when the FBI agent came to ask questions about Howard's behavior and background, the only things that Sheldon had to say about him were terribly negative (although very silly).


And yet Howard, Leonard and Rag didn't have criminal charges brought against them for falsifying data when they were at the North Pole on Sheldon's project. In real life the least that would have happened would have been the three of them would have lost their jobs and never been allowed to work in research again. Certainly Howard wouldn't have been allowed to be an astronaut. They wouldn't have risked him fabricating data to keep from being annoyed by another astronaut. Indeed it wasn't credible that the FBI didn't find out about that when they did a background check on him. Four years after a group of graduate students faced the agonizing experience of turning in their mentor for apparently falsifying scientific data, she has pleaded guilty to a criminal charge in the case.

A scientist in the field of human obesity and aging, was the first academic in the United States to be jailed for falsifying data in a grant application.

This is yet another example that the writers don't really understand anything about scientists or the research milieu.

The “no-big-deal” attitude that the lead character took concerning the seriousness of scientific fraud was unsettling.

Edited by alllie, Nov 19, 2012 @ 7:36 PM.

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