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3-19: "The Brig" 2007.05.02


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#511

grack

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Posted May 8, 2007 @ 1:43 PM

I do think Jack was acting like a jerk there, and has been acting like a jerk towards Kate for awhile, but I still don't think it's his fault that Kate has an unhealthy obsession with him.


queenofdenile-- THANK YOU! I think this is a spot on description. I am certainly no defender of Jack and I do think he generally doesn't treat Kate with respect, but Kate takes it and wants more. That's her issue. Not his.

#512

LottaMoxie

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Posted May 8, 2007 @ 3:13 PM

If Kate wanted to speak to Jack alone, she should have waited until he WAS alone. I mean yes, he and Juliet are joined at the hip and that's a bit obnoxious, but I'm sure there is at least some small period of time where each of them is alone. He has to go pee at some point. Was it so urgent that Jack be told right then and there that it couldn't wait even a couple more hours?

#513

suneenart

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Posted May 8, 2007 @ 3:30 PM

Was it so urgent that Jack be told right then and there that it couldn't wait even a couple more hours?


I say possible rescue from the Island I had been stuck on for 3 months could and should not wait even a few more minutes. It's not like the Losties know they are going to be stuck there for 3 more seasons...since they don't have Internet access, they are still hoping to be rescued!

#514

Mandy P

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Posted May 8, 2007 @ 3:41 PM

Was it so urgent that Jack be told right then and there that it couldn't wait even a couple more hours?


I would say yes, a possible rescue helicoptor pilot crashing on the island and telling them that there's a search party looking for them IS pretty urgent.

And what if Kate HAD had some kind of medical situation that she needed to disclose to Jack? Should she have waited until he finished his beef jerky? It was hella rude for St. Jack to respond the way he did. In fact, I haven't seen anyone act like that since high school.

#515

DNunes

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Posted May 8, 2007 @ 3:42 PM

If "proactive" means stealing weapons only to be conned out of them and terrorizing the innocent just to get one's own way, then no thanks, with respect.


Proactive means controlling a situation by taking the initiative or anticipating events. I never said anything about Sawyer or whether he should be their leader (although I do think he'd be better than Jack). I was responding to your statement that Jack is reactive, which I agree with. I just don't think that is a good quality in a leader.

#516

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Posted May 8, 2007 @ 7:11 PM

And what if Kate HAD had some kind of medical situation that she needed to disclose to Jack? Should she have waited until he finished his beef jerky?


No of course not. I would hope in that case she would say something about needing to confer w/him as her medical doctor. I'm not saying Jack wasn't rude, cause he was, but I wouldn't disclose anything in front of Juliet.

#517

Mandy P

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Posted May 8, 2007 @ 8:04 PM

No of course not. I would hope in that case she would say something about needing to confer w/him as her medical doctor. I'm not saying Jack wasn't rude, cause he was, but I wouldn't disclose anything in front of Juliet.



It certainly was imbecilic of her to blurt it out in front of Juliet. Not to mention simpering and pathetic.

#518

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Posted May 8, 2007 @ 8:53 PM

I say possible rescue from the Island I had been stuck on for 3 months could and should not wait even a few more minutes. It's not like the Losties know they are going to be stuck there for 3 more seasons...since they don't have Internet access, they are still hoping to be rescued! - suneenart


Hee! I agree, the news of a ship being so near and them potentially having the means of communicating with it trumps an uninterrupted meal.

It certainly was imbecilic of her to blurt it out in front of Juliet. Not to mention simpering and pathetic. - Mandy P


I do think Jack was excessively rude to her for no particular reason. Asking to have a word in private is a fairly commonplace occurence, and Jack's just playing ego-games with ALL of them by insisting they accept Juliet completely just on his say-so. That said, it was idiotic of Kate to blurt out the information in front of Juliet. She got pissed off at Jack and blurted it out.

I think the B story was meant to echo the themes of the A story, as is often the case. Trust, secrets, provocation, anger, wrong action - All were present in both stories, though in vastly different proportions and circumstances, of course.

#519

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Posted May 9, 2007 @ 1:15 AM

Juliet is under Jack's protection, remember? Apparently he mostly protects her from even the slightest hint of social exclusion because suddenly this show is a Regency romance novel, the characters are all members of the ton, and Lord Jack has taken social responsibility for the lovely but naive lass from distant lands. Heaven forfend she not be called upon by all the finest ladies of Fort Tarp.

For all Kate's crimes, at least she's not implicated in the deaths of pregnant women.


I'm not sure Juliet is implicated so much as associated. If what we've heard so far is true, she attended the fatal pregnancies, but did not cause the fatalities. She may well have had a hand in some of the conceptions, in which case should could arguably bear some responsibility for the deaths, but I'm not altogether sure that's clear...

#520

SophiaPriskilla

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Posted May 9, 2007 @ 7:59 AM

I'm not sure Juliet is implicated so much as associated. If what we've heard so far is true, she attended the fatal pregnancies, but did not cause the fatalities. She may well have had a hand in some of the conceptions, in which case should could arguably bear some responsibility for the deaths, but I'm not altogether sure that's clear...


If I'm recalling "One of Us" correctly, she came to the island after being told that the women there couldn't get pregnant - and, indeed, her work pre-island was in fertility and conception, not in obstetrics; she's good at getting women pregnant, not getting the pregnancies to come to term. I suspect that women who have been on the island for a long time have trouble getting pregnant, period - Sun got pregnant after only five weeks there, but I got the impression that women who had been there for longer had a hard time getting pregnant at all. I definitely got the impression that she has had a hand in all the conceptions. If that's the case, she bears a great deal of responsibility for every death after Sabine's (when she figured out what was going wrong) - which was after she'd been on the island less than six months. She could've refused to help Ben (who never gave her any reason to believe that he'd helped her sister, just an evidence-free and none too credible promise) - he probably would've harmed or killed her, but eight more deaths is the point at which it's "sucks for her." (She's taken the Hippocratic Oath; the fact that [Ben says] the women consented to get pregnant is irrelevant.)

Anyway, that's just my $0.02 on part of why I got seriously evil vibes from Juliet last episode.

I would hope in that case she would say something about needing to confer w/him as her medical doctor. I'm not saying Jack wasn't rude, cause he was, but I wouldn't disclose anything in front of Juliet.


I blame both Kate and Jack in this scene. Kate shouldn't have told Jack, period (if she wasn't sure she could keep a secret, she shouldn't have promised Sayid), and she compounded it exponentially by telling Juliet as well, given that even she doesn't trust the woman. As for Jack... CompetentDoctor!Jack of S1 or S2 would've handled it better, I think; I am very much of the opinion that he was a good leader for quite a while, but has fallen apart under the strain. Anybody who's ever so much as had a part-time clerical job in a hospital could instantly tell you, "He's accepted the role as island doctor. Someone asks for a confidential conversation, he STFUs and complies, no delays or questions acceptable." Medically warranted consults with other physicians only (and if someone just asks to talk to a particular doctor in private about something unspecified, not have a procedure, it's not warranted). No ifs, ands, buts, or exceptions. I don't expect TV medical practice to mirror the RL perfectly, but we've seen Jack respect confidentiality with Charlie, Sun, and Hurley before. It's been established as part of the character's routine, so I think it's significant that he's deviating from it now. If he can't remember his first-year undergraduate pre-med classes... let's just say I'm kind of shuddering to think what he and Juliet are planning.

#521

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Posted May 9, 2007 @ 3:54 PM

If I recall correctly, no one was around to witness that killing, which I think happened a night or so before Sawyer stepped onto Flight 815. How would the Others know about it??


This reply might be a little too late, considering the new episode is on tonight, but I had a theory about this. The Others may not have had the opportunity to learn of Sawyer's first murder prior to him crashing on the island, but they certainly had the opportunity to do so after they crashed. Remember, when the plane went down and Ben began shouting orders about finding out who was on the plane? I think after they learned about Sawyer, they may have been able to link him to the murder. I don't know, it's a stretch - but the Others have a lot of resources and there was a link between Sawyer and the first man he mistakenly killed. (Through the man who fooled Sawyer into killing him in the first place).

I think the Others only started collecting their info after the plane crashed and really had no control over the crash OR who was on the plane. Just my opinion though.

#522

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Posted May 9, 2007 @ 3:58 PM

But using that argument, Jack didn't help them anymore than the island did, they are all still dead.

I don't quite follow the repeated argument that the stupid/bad/good but uninformed plan was *all* Sayid's fault. Yes, he came up with it, but Jack carried it out. How does that meke him smarter than Sayid?


Re the first question, while it's true that Jack probably couldn't have helped those I mentioned any more than the island did, he couldn't have made things worse, either. About the second, while Jack shouldn't have agreed with Sayid's plan, since it was Sayid's idea in the first place, he deserves most of the blame, the way I see it.

Proactive means controlling the situation by taking the initiative and anticipating events. I never said anything about Sawyer or whether he should be their leader (although I do think he'd be better than Jack), I was just responding to your statement that Jack is reactive. I just don't think that is a good quality in a leader.


With respect, I know what reactive means and I never said that you were talking about Sawyer. I was merely citing an example of what I define as bad leadership. Speaking of which, if I were on CI, I would trust my fate to someone who's not a cold-blooded killer.

Hopefully the Losties will banish Kate for her stupidity. Will she ever figure out that Jack is now an Other?? I believe that he wouldn't hesitate to kill any of the Losties if it was the only way to get off the island. Just like Michael. He and Kate deserve each other and Sawyer deserves better.


I totally disagree. If Jack really were a cold-blooded killer, then he would have just let Sawyer and Kate die instead of helping them escape. Jack is the designated hero and as a rule, heroes protect the innocent, not murder them. Jack and Michael are completely different men who've lived completely diffreent lives. I judt don't see Jack as someone who's so desperate to leave Craphole Island that he would kill innocent people without hesitation, no matter how long he's been with The Others. As for Sawyer, his victim-the first guy he killed- is the one who deserves better, as far as I'm concerned.

#523

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Posted May 9, 2007 @ 4:53 PM

I blame both Kate and Jack in this scene. Kate shouldn't have told Jack, period (if she wasn't sure she could keep a secret, she shouldn't have promised Sayid)

I didn’t see her promise Sayid. Did she? He asked her to promise, and as I remember she responded by asking for more information, in a tone that indicated she was pissed about even being asked to keep it secret. If I remember rightly there was no suggestion in her attitude with Sayid that she intended to keep a secret. But the memory, of course, is never a sure thing. (It makes my life like a mundane version of Lost.)

The writers made it clear in her earlier conversation with Sun that Kate has no doubts about Jack’s loyalties. It was kind of an extraneous exchange, which makes me think they were pointing out this certainty as a motivating force for her. It’s not just her romantic feelings for Jack but her fidelity to him, in my view, that made her tell him. She’s one of the island’s acknowledged leaders, as Hurley indicated in his pre-barbeque conversation with Sawyer. She’s not just trying to get between him and his new girlfriend. She’s making a decision about what she thinks is good for the group.

I know, I’m completely alone in thinking this. And It would be a lot more fun to see her tell him to go fuck himself. I’m rooting for it, too. But I think it’s strength rather than weakness that keeps her from doing that. Or maybe a combination of the two, since their relationship is complicated; both an alliance and a short lived quasi-romance. Expressing her exasperation with Jack’s behavior also struck me as a healthy rather than a needy thing to do.

Even Jack – until his plan is revealed it’s hard to know exactly why he’s doing what he’s doing, whether he’s got some rational reason that requires him to behave like an insufferable prick, or whether he just is one.

#524

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Posted May 9, 2007 @ 5:38 PM

queenofdenile-- THANK YOU! I think this is a spot on description. I am certainly no defender of Jack and I do think he generally doesn't treat Kate with respect, but Kate takes it and wants more. That's her issue. Not his.


grack, you are not wrong! I too can't fault Jack here, just like I can't fault him for Kate's crying/self-blaming/apology in Left Behind, it's Kate's own fault she acts that way around him.

What bugged me is that she decided to tell him in front of Juliet anyway. I found incredibly immature and pathetic. Hmmm.. those are two words I've been using a lot lately in describing her character!

#525

DNunes

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Posted May 9, 2007 @ 6:58 PM

With respect, I know what reactive means...


Prettyeyes, I have read a lot of your posts; they are always well thought-out and intelligent (even the ones I disagree with!) - I didn't actually think you needed me to define anything for you. I was trying to respond facetiously to your post. Sorry if it sounded condescending.

I also agree that a cold-blooded killer (see Sawyer's first victim) probably isn't the best leader. I just don't think a hot-head is either, and that describes both Sawyer and Jack.

#526

Norman Conquest

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Posted May 9, 2007 @ 7:07 PM

Was it so urgent that Jack be told right then and there that it couldn't wait even a couple more hours?


I say possible rescue from the Island I had been stuck on for 3 months could and should not wait even a few more minutes. It's not like the Losties know they are going to be stuck there for 3 more seasons...since they don't have Internet access, they are still hoping to be rescued!


What, Jack is now the duly elected rescue officer who must approve all escape attempts? Is there anything Jack could contribute, anything he could do, in the next 10 minutes or 10 hours or 10 days, that would invalidate the very sound plan Desmond, Sayid, Charlie, Jin and Hurley are pursuing?

Were he the most qualified electronics tech on the island, I can see an argument that he deserves input on the the repair/charging/salvage of the radiophone.
Does he know something abut the ionosphere and sunspots that might improve their radiophoning schedule or strategy?
Were he needed to keep Naomi alive so that she COULD contact her team, Dr. Jack has standing in the matter.
Is there imminent peril that the Five Stooges might kill themselves or others that Jack's intricate logic might reveal?

What exactly does Kate believe Jack knows or can do that outweighs the probability that suspected spy Juliet might sabotage, undermine or betray their attempt at rescue?

And in what scenario does Kate waiting a few hours -- until she cools down -- make matters worse?

Having made his own secret separate peace with Ben, Jack would have a hard time complaining about anyone else not sharing their rescue opportunity with him and Juliet.

#527

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Posted May 9, 2007 @ 8:25 PM

Is there anything Jack could contribute, anything he could do, in the next 10 minutes or 10 hours or 10 days, that would invalidate the very sound plan Desmond, Sayid, Charlie, Jin and Hurley are pursuing?


I'm guessing the chick with the punctured lung might like to see the Camp Doctor, in addition to the one-eyed, reborn creepy "medic." If Jack were not compromised, I think excluding the doctor's help would make the Scout Troop's plan less than sound. They clearly do not trust Jack and so excluded him; Kate trusts Jack and so she let him know.

I'm still thinking it's kinda urgent, and so did Kate.

#528

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Posted Feb 11, 2012 @ 6:20 PM

It seems like the show is implying the survivors are in Hell, and maybe that Ben is the Devil. I like this idea, but I’m sure it’s too obvious.

Why doesn’t Danielle wonder what in heck is going on with Locke at the Black Rock.

Oh boy, James “Sawyer” Ford really killed me tonight in his scenes with “actual” Sawyer. Brilliantly acted. As horrible as it sounds, I’m glad James got to give the real Sawyer his due. At least he got to give him the letter. Too bad it got torn up.

Jack and Juliet are in cahoots about something, and yet Jack wants Kate to tell her secret but he won’t tell theirs. Something is wrong with this picture. And Kate, seriously, you are asked to keep a secret and no sooner do you run to Jack with it, but then let Juliet in on it too. You are too dumb to live! Kate grates on my nerves more and more with every passing second. Please let her be pregnant and die.

I love how everyone on this show says “Don’t tell me what I can’t do.”

#529

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Posted Feb 11, 2012 @ 6:35 PM

I didn't like that Sawyer ended up back on his old vendetta and killing again, but I agree, the actor did an awesome job. Locke's dad was being such a jerk with all his taunting and Sawyer's reaction still showed his humanity despite what he did.

I really hate what the writers are doing to Kate.