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4-0: "Razor" 2007.11.24


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#781

Reraizure

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Posted Dec 23, 2008 @ 6:26 PM

The rewatch still had me wondering, just like many other viewers here, about Caine's decision. Nevertheless, I still enjoyed Razor just for the pure bleakeness of it all. All the tired flashbacks, sitting alone in the mess, the sound of the radio in the air, shooting herself up ... pure poetry in its own way.

#782

largenesse

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Posted Feb 15, 2009 @ 10:22 AM

Just saw it, as doing the whole series starting a couple of weeks ago. I have to say, Cain's affair w Gina-Six was a corny bit of retconning: making the sadistic "other" Cain into a Lesbian is corny stereotyping. I mean, how many other Lesbians are we seeing in BSG? Sadist freak Cain therefore stands in for all Lesbians in this universe. Just as Lumbly's dangerous and manipulable character stood in for all black males. I mean, where are the other black males in that universe? Lumbly's Bulldog - stupid violent strangler - stands in for all black men. A proud moment for everyone. Also, the affair (and other revealed details of Gina) detract from the emotional impact of Gina's blasting of Cain, due to the revelation of how much more deeply Gina betrayed Cain that we knew (I think). Gina knew she was a cylon, Gina had directly caused human deaths after the initial attack, Gina was sleeping with Cain. A little less like justice when she put the gun to Cain's head. But you know those TV Lesbians. Just like them TV Black Men. You just can't trust 'em.

#783

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Posted Feb 15, 2009 @ 10:26 AM

Yeah, Battelstar Galactica has a lot of gender and sexuality problems when it comes to first, representing them at all, and second that when they do represent them the characters tend to be huge scumbags. Gaeta's gay!!! And now he's gonna cause a murderous mutiny!!!! etc.

I don't think RDM is that smart a guy when it comes to that stuff. Like, I remember his reasoning for having all military superiors be addressed as "Sir" regardless of gender was that saying "Maam" just "sounded silly" aaannnd maybe that's a problem with you and not the word maam, Ron? Maybe?

#784

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Posted Feb 15, 2009 @ 10:51 AM

when they do represent them the characters tend to be huge scumbags. Gaeta's gay!!! And now he's gonna cause a murderous mutiny!!!! etc.

How many viewers, especially of this particular show, actually make such a causal connection though? I think the audience should be given more credit. The way I see it, the minority characters are flawed because nearly every single character on this show is flawed regardless of race or sexuality. The hetero whites have been behind some pretty shady shit in this series, too.

I liked the Cain and Gina relationship, outside the context of what happened next, which I don't think is important. Why does Cain have to "stand in" for everybody? The whole idea of stand ins seems too small for the BSG world: these are supposed to be real people, they all have to be realistically frakked. Gina and Cain was nice because it introduced some humanity into the Cain character: instead of Cain just being this evil 1-D severe-bangs bitch, she was someone who opened up and gave that tiny little piece of herself to somebody else, and they fucked her over worse than anything, and she did something horrible in return.

Edited by Shmangalang, Feb 15, 2009 @ 10:53 AM.


#785

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Posted Feb 15, 2009 @ 4:40 PM

Cain's affair w Gina-Six was a corny bit of retconning: making the sadistic "other" Cain into a Lesbian is corny stereotyping.


I have to disagree for two reasons.

First, I didn't see it as a retcon. Tricia Helfer and Michelle Forbes injected so much meaning into their two brief on-screen moments in the Pegasus arc that the reveal of a romance was hardly surprising. Unlike the later Gaeta reveal, I feel like their story was there all along.

Second, I think Gina humanized Cain in a way that was necessary for Razor to work, and was more effective than a male love interest could have possibly been. All we knew of Cain from the regular series was the edge of the razor - the super-hard mega-bitch that almost derails the Galactica's quest to keep civilization alive. It took Gina to show the other parts of her character - especially how she used to have a human side which she turned off for good.

In general, I don't get too tweaked about the lack of GBLT presence on Galactica, and the relatively glib ways in which it is occasionally integrated. To an extent this is a post-gender society, and I think they've been pretty consistent in playing it that way.

For instance, I think we as fans could have easily imagined Baltar, Starbuck, or Ellen chasing the tails of members of the same sex - but in each instance the potential sensationalism over the choice in the story would likely have derailed the narrative unnecessarily.

With Cain in Gina, it extenuated the narrative, and that's why I strongly believe it was the right choice.

Edited by krisis, Feb 15, 2009 @ 4:41 PM.


#786

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Posted Mar 22, 2010 @ 11:38 AM

The Great Battlestar Series Rewatch continues with Razor. As usual, all spoilers through the series finale are okay, so any new viewers wishing to avoid spoilers, go to the beginning of the thread and stop where the first Rewatch discussion began. For more information and the complete schedule, go to this post.

Discussion of either version is fine though by this time most of us have seen the extended version. But discussion of differences between the two would also be interesting. I originally got to see this in a movie theater full of BSG fans so it was a very different experience than watching the extended version later on DVD. For example, every time an established character (like Adama or Starbuck) made their first appearance, there was applause and cheers. It reminded me of when I watched The X-Files movie and how the entire audience erupted into applause when Mulder and Scully each first appeared and especially when the Lone Gunmen made their appearance.

#787

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Posted Mar 22, 2010 @ 2:13 PM

I originally got to see this in a movie theater full of BSG fans so it was a very different experience than watching the extended version later on DVD.


I really envy you that Romantique. I would have loved to see any episode (well almost any) on a big screen with other fans. I have only seen the extended version but I think I understand the differences. What I can't imagine is the episode without the Cain childhood stuff. That is an important part for me of making some sense of Cain. The first time I watched this I just didn't get it all. Watching on DVD I was just way too impatient to get going with the aftermath of the end of Crossroads. It wasn't a welcome fix of a drug I was missing, but an impediment to getting to the next disc. What a lousy judge I made first time around. Now I think this is awesome stuff, and even more awesome in light of Daybreak. What stands out for me is what the Pegasus story shows us about the story of what we have been watching on Galactica and the contingency of it. We weren't watching a show about what happens at the end of the world. We were watching a show about what happened to these particular characters at the end of the world. But at the same time the polarity between Galactica and the Pegasus, especially with what comes after this in Galactica's journey is not a hard-and-fast one. The polarities are there and yet they also blur.

I love the way that it is such a mixture of context and character that shapes the differences between Adama and Cain. It is circumstance but it's also choice. Adama doesn't have a mind that gets stuck in one place. He shows time and time again, he can change his mind. Whatever he feels in the heat of the moment, he can hear the other voice and choose to act differently. I love the way that the Lie of Earth and Lie of War are both followed by 'So say we all'. There's something chilling, but also moving, about the words being used to consecrate a pledge to war. This was the imperative that did make sense to these people at the moment. It did seem like something meaningful and even perhaps holy. There was no civilian fleet for them even to conceive in a way what the imperative to journey looked like. I do think that there was a pretty reasonable case for killing Cain, because she would ultimately have threatened the lives of the entire civilian population, but at least up until the moment she shoots Belzen I also kind of love her. There is so much compassion still in her when she is comforting her crew after the attacks and then tending the dead. But the moment when she shoots Belzen after asking for his own weapon, as if she is telling him that this is actually an act of suicide in choosing to be insubordinate, is just horrible. And yet when my feeling for her seems to have entirely gone after the Scylla, it comes back in those awful moments on the last day of the first Cylon war. How does anyone come back from that when the same enemy comes back again in human form and you find that you gave them your love? She thinks she's giving up her humanity for something noble but the more she descends into both the logic of war and her own emotional need for vengeance she loses it for becoming a god: she starts deciding who lives and who dies, and not out of necessity. When Kendra says 'military needs must take priority' that is when the whole Lie of War takes on an entirely different meaning. They can decide to devote the Pegasus to a war of vengeance, but they don't get to decide that these people are sacrificed to it. She has to die because that makes her dangerous to everyone but herself and her crew, but, I think, she doesn't have to die without our compassion for what she made of herself in the circumstances she found herself. And the end of Cain's speech about their imperative - 'And so we will fight. Because in the end it's the only alternative our enemies have left us ' - is in a way another way of putting Adama's rallying call for a suicide mission to rescue Hera. Adama lets people choose for themselves whether to engage in what seems like a futile last stand and it is for something that has been created by the journey and not for revenge, but saying there is nowhere left to journey, we can only fight and die is the point Adama has reached at the end. He's been led out of the Lie of War by Roslin at the beginning, and so the Galactica and Pegasus part company in so many important ways, but at the end they also decide not to run and Roslin stands with him willing to give the last drop of life in her for that fight. I think there's also a really interesting parallel between the blind jump here that Cain orders Kendra to do and the one that Adama orders Starbuck to do in Daybreak. Adama and Cain both say it doesn't matter where they end up; they just have to jump. The journey of the Galactica in a way ends in the same way that the journey of the Pegasus begins. Those on Pegasus go from that moment into a nightmare. Those on Galactica find a new beginning. But it is fortune that takes them so far apart as well as their different choices.

I also really like the way that the theme of people being defined by what they do and the choices they make and whether there is any way back from the choices that feel like they've killed something inside comes into focus here. Here there is the ongoing conflict between the possibility of forgiveness and what frequently seems the probability that there is no way back. Kendra says ''there are no second chances to make things up if you frak them up the first time'. It's interesting when this is and isn't true. It's partially true for Kendra here, it will be true for Gina, Felix, Zarek and Tory but not for Baltar or Saul or Boomer. More than anyone else, what Felix chose he became. The other Felix who was someone good and trusting died by Felix's own choices, the first of which in stopping the election theft was a noble one. And who is Kendra in her final act? She is Cain's heir: she is completing the mission, threatening to shoot Starbuck if she doesn't accept her order. But she also finally lets herself remember the truth of what she did on the Scylla and admits she wants forgiveness. She accepts that there are worst things than death both for her and for those who won't be now turned into machines. She says who you choose to be when it seems there are no choices left is more important than whether you survive. She is Adama's heir there and it is Adama who has barely known her who can see her worth.

The voice of the old hyrid is incredible. He sounds like an Old Testament prophet. I love his speech. In some ways my favourite line is 'The seven, now six who believe themselves without sin. But in time it is sin that will consume them. And the wrenching agony of the one split into the many'. I like it because I think that it is something hugely important about the Cylons - they can't see their own capacity to sin only the humans - that at times gets a bit lost in the story when the Cylons, espeically Sharon in season two, was used to reflect on the humans' capacity for sin when the humans are far more self-aware about it in the first place.

#788

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Posted Mar 22, 2010 @ 2:45 PM

The voice of the old hybrid is incredible. He sounds like an Old Testament prophet. I love his speech. In some ways my favourite line is 'The seven, now six who believe themselves without sin. But in time it is sin that will consume them. And the wrenching agony of the one split into the many'. I like it because I think that it is something hugely important about the Cylons - they can't see their own capacity to sin only the humans - that at times gets a bit lost in the story when the Cylons, espeically Sharon in season two, was used to reflect on the humans' capacity for sin when the humans are far more self-aware about it in the first place.

He remains the best part of Razor for me, and your point here is excellent. The Cylons were always prone to hypocrisy when it came to their own crimes and sins, without seeming to realize how human they were. Even the 'good' rebels only really embraced that side of themselves after they had no choice and the final difference betweem them had been pretty much eradicated. And of course, the one Cylon who was accepting of how similar the Humlons were to humanity and royally pissed off about it, Cavil, was the worst of the lot when it came to recognizing that point.

The Hybrid was very cool, and it was awesome to see some old school Cylons, complete with voices, though it makes what the FF inadvertently did even more tragic for me. I've not see Caprica beyond the pilot yet (I'll get around to it eventually) but just from this series we know the Colonial Centurions had their own beliefs and goals, which were hijacked by the FF - who either against the wishes of the Centurions gave themselves the power to reprogramme and inhibit them, or through neglect created a backdoor for Cavil to do so and wipe out the Colonial Centurions as a species.

The rest of it is mostly good, with some hit and miss stuff because we didn't know these people that much. The theme's Effra talks about are well done, and however one falls on just how bad Cain and her crew really were, the story told here paints a suitably bleak picture and deepens the S2 mini arc when Pegasus arrives for all subsequent reviewings.

I think there's also a really interesting parallel between the blind jump here that Cain orders Kendra to do and the one that Adama orders Starbuck to do in Daybreak. Adama and Cain both say it doesn't matter where they end up; they just have to jump. The journey of the Galactica in a way ends in the same way that the journey of the Pegasus begins. Those on Pegasus go from that moment into a nightmare. Those on Galactica find a new beginning.

I never would have made that connection, but it is interesting. I'm not sure it it was intentional, or what they are trying to say if it was, but interesting all the same.

"All this has happened before and will happen again...again...again". So true, hybrid. One of my biggest issues with the finale was how, although they had all realized something was interferring with them, some tangible presence, the characters didn't have time to really think about what that implied about all they had seen, and no way to do anything after being presented with the consolation prize of Earth 2.0 (consolation because I think our 'angels' did not get what they wanted out of this iteration of the cycle - but more on that come Daybreak). They are doing this again, as the hybrid says, and when I rewatched this, with the old school centurions and their quest to create humanoid models, it just draws me to Earth 1.0 and their very similar Centurions. No connection between their creation, and yet so similar,positive indication of active manipulation. This happening again is not just about repeating cycles of behaviour, it is about observing that behaviour with only minute changes to the window dressing of the cycle, seeing how the players react if this or that detail is different but using the same basic board and layout as before. It gives a much more sinister edge to the steering mystical forces IMO, and somethng about the almost fatalistic voice of the first hybrid just made me think he/it had caught on to that fact. Hybrids seemed able to tap into something the 'angels' used, or else into something that allowed them to be used as conduits but said 'angels', and this first and only look at a mostly lucid one makes rewatching it worthwhile all on its own.

#789

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Posted Mar 23, 2010 @ 3:03 AM

The Hybrid was very cool, and it was awesome to see some old school Cylons, complete with voices, though it makes what the FF inadvertently did even more tragic for me. I've not see Caprica beyond the pilot yet (I'll get around to it eventually) but just from this series we know the Colonial Centurions had their own beliefs and goals, which were hijacked by the FF - who either against the wishes of the Centurions gave themselves the power to reprogramme and inhibit them, or through neglect created a backdoor for Cavil to do so and wipe out the Colonial Centurions as a species.


kieran555, of the things that I dislike about the way the story finally played out, this whole question of the FF's actions in making the deal with the centurions and creating the humanoid models and giving them resurrection technology is one that in some ways bugs me the most. I mean I know they were trying to procure the peace but what were they thinking in going down this route (they really thought that 7 people replicated endlessly was a good thing?) and, except for a few moments of Tigh in Deadlock, the story entirely glosses over the immense consequences of their actions. Even back on Earth what were the FF doing trying to recreate immortality? That is the kind of thing that the logic and thematic impulse of this story required there were serious consequences for and it didn't happen for these characters. Caprica, aside from being generally brilliant, is doing a far superior job with the Cylon backstory.

This happening again is not just about repeating cycles of behaviour, it is about observing that behaviour with only minute changes to the window dressing of the cycle, seeing how the players react if this or that detail is different but using the same basic board and layout as before. It gives a much more sinister edge to the steering mystical forces IMO, and somethng about the almost fatalistic voice of the first hybrid just made me think he/it had caught on to that fact.


Entirely agree kieran555. And I think they do the slightly different version of repeating cycles of behaviour pretty well with the characters as well. Of all the different ways Baltar ends up betraying humanity it is never quite the same, either in the motivation that through the consequences produces it, or the way he then ends up reacting to what he has done.

Edited by Effra, Mar 23, 2010 @ 10:16 AM.


#790

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Posted Mar 23, 2010 @ 9:39 AM

The Hybrid was the best part of Razor for me, as well, Kieran555. I'm a sucker for the use of prophecy in epic storytelling like this b/c it's always intriguing to see how it plays out. Since prophecies are almost without exception riddles, they obviously never mean what one would think they mean at first blush. Kendra is horrified at the idea of Kara as "the harbinger of death", which, she, without a doubt is, but a harbinger of death for the Cylon. And she is also a harbinger of death b/c she, herself, is dead at the time. I love the wordplay.

I agree, Effra. Caprica is being very careful in affixing itself to the shape of things to come, with assiduous attention paid to the development of the Cylon consciousness. It is another brilliant addition to the BSG canon.

I mean I know they were trying to procure the peace but what were they thinking in going down this route (they really thought that 7 people replicated endlessly was a good thing?) and, except for a few moments of Tigh in Deadlocked, the story entirely glosses over the immense consequences of their actions. Even back on Earth what were the FF doing trying to recreate immortality? That is the kind of thing that the logic and thematic impulse of this story required there were serious consequences for and it didn't happen for these characters. Caprica, aside from being generally brilliant, is doing a far superior job with the Cylon backstory. - Effra



The FF role in the development of the humanoid Cylons was always problematic to me. It smacked of being a last minute addition and while you generally just have to accept that part of the story, it never made a tremendous amount of sense. Though, with Caprica, I can see more and more why the Centurions were so eager to take human form.

Cain's relationship with Gina was an interesting choice, here. First, well, we get Gina's name, which we never had before. And Cain is humanized by a relationship that, ironically enough, is both predicated on a lie, and with a Cylon. Her blood-thirst and dedication to military authority would still be a driving force, I think, even if she had not been deceived by Gina. Her childhood experiences during the war that did so much to shape her personality attest to that. But I think she believes that by letting her guard down with Gina, she gave in to a perceived weakness, and she cannot let that mistake stand. What Gina does to Cain, is much the same as what CapricaSix does to Baltar, but on a smaller scale. Cain and Baltar couldn't be more different as individuals, and their reactions to these betrayals are also markedly opposed. Baltar becomes crippled by his own weakness and fear, but never really turns on CapricaSix for her betrayal. He is also never really in a position of power. Cain, in her extreme authority however, becomes even harder in her resolve and does everything she can to destroy, humiliate and debase Gina. The enemy in each case seems to be the human reaction to the uncanny adeptness and capacity of the Cylon to emulate human form. Cain cannot let that stand. And by doing that she loses all concern for civilian life. Her war is a war that would ultimately have no survivors. What is she saving after all? In the end, even Kendra, her warrior, her razor, cannot live with what she's done.

Edited by Screenster, Mar 23, 2010 @ 9:41 AM.


#791

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Posted Mar 23, 2010 @ 12:22 PM

Aside from getting spoiled for part of the movie (they were testing a live satellite feed and you should have seen everyone desperately trying not to watch or listen...I was humming, my neighbor was listening to an iPod but all of us couldn't help but steal glances), yes, watching Razor with an auditorium-full of fans was an unforgettable experience. But of course we all still couldn't wait to get our hands on the extra scenes promised on the DVD.

What I can't imagine is the episode without the Cain childhood stuff. That is an important part for me of making some sense of Cain.

I completely agree, Effra. When I watched the extended version, especially in light of everything we've seen through Daylight and including watching Caprica and seeing little Willy Adama, those Cain childhood scenes gain even more poignancy.

Cain cannot let that stand. And by doing that she loses all concern for civilian life. Her war is a war that would ultimately have no survivors. What is she saving after all? In the end, even Kendra, her warrior, her razor, cannot live with what she's done.

I like this statement a lot, Screenster. It encapsulates and reminds me of why I had been so looking forward to Razor before it came out. Galactica and Pegasus led parallel lives but their respective captains made certain choices that led them to very different ends and I couldn't wait to see why and how Cain became the way she was when we first meet her in Pegasus.

#792

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Posted Mar 23, 2010 @ 2:07 PM

Galactica and Pegasus led parallel lives but their respective captains made certain choices that led them to very different ends and I couldn't wait to see why and how Cain became the way she was when we first meet her in Pegasus. - Romantique


::nods:: Yes, one of the questions asked repeatedly throughout the series is whether or not they are worthy of survival. Do the ends justify the means? Is the price of survival too high? These are questions Adama constantly asks himself and acts accordingly time and time again. Cain, meanwhile, never asks the question. This suggests that the draconian measures of exacting revenge are little more than that. Razor helps explain why the fates of the Pegasus (and its crew) and the Galactica and its are so different. And it has everything to do with the mindset of who was commanding each.

#793

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Posted Mar 24, 2010 @ 6:21 AM

I think the Baltar-Cain comparison is interesting too Screenster. I think another difference is that Cain experiences the betrayal of the 6 within a personal history that includes the First Cylon War. This is rage fuelling pre-existing grief, anger and guilt. I really like that Razor brings out that for the older characters this is revisiting the traumas of their youth. Cain and Adama come into this war with their lives already deeply scarred not just loss by but the things they have done and seen. When Adama feels this overwhelming guilt about abandoning the people on Caprica he is already a man who has had to live with leaving people behind to an unspeakable fate. Imagine him lying awake at night, utterly alone, during those four months driven mad by the thought of what the Cylons could be doing to Laura, Starbuck and Tigh, willing himself to dismiss it, and blaming himself that he can't get there more quickly.

Edited by Effra, Mar 24, 2010 @ 6:22 AM.


#794

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Posted Jan 15, 2012 @ 10:11 AM

T

#795

benteen

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Posted Jun 24, 2012 @ 2:16 PM

Cain's decision to execute the conscripts famillies was stupid. Wouldn't it have been easier to have told the conscripts that if they came along peacefully, they would take their families with them? The Pegasus just lost 700-800 members of the crew due to their most recent attack on the Cylons. They had PLENTY of room on the ship for the families (not to mention 700-800 less mouths to feed) and I imagine if knowing that their families would be safer on a battlestar, the conscripts would have gone willingly. But how the hell are they going to go along willingly with the Pegasus if Cain kills their families, the only thing important to the conscripts. I get some would go along out of fear of dying but I think a lot of them would tell Cain "Frak you. You just killed my family, why the frak should I go with you?" Cain was going to abandon their families on ships without FTL's or supplies, leading them to a slow death in space or certain destruction from the Cylons. I'm sorry but you're not going to get loyalty and hard work from the conscripts if you kill their families. A person with an elementary school education would be able to figure that out...you think an admiral would to.

Making things worse is Adama defending Cain's sadistic decision, proving that he is not only stupid but morally bankrupt. There was another way to bring those conscripts on Pegasus willingly....bring over their families. And if they were still not willing to come over, just kidnap the families. How the hell are you going to hold any power over them by killing the only thing that these conscripts have left? There are times that the BSG writers just didn't think about the details...they just wanted to go with the shock value.

Edited by benteen, Sep 9, 2012 @ 8:45 PM.


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Posted Sep 9, 2012 @ 12:38 AM

Cain's decision to execute the conscripts famillies was stupid. Wouldn't it have been easier to have told the conscripts that if they came along peacefully, they would take their families with them? The Pegasus just lost 700-800 members of the crew due to their most recent attack on the Cylons. They had PLENTY of room on the ship for the families (not to mention 700-800 less mouths to feed) and I imagine if knowing that their families would be safer on a battlestar, the conscripts would have gone willingly. But how the hell are they going to go along willingly with the Pegasus if Cain kills their families, the only thing important to the conscripts. I get some would go along out of fear of dying but I think a lot of them would tell Cain "Frak you. You just killed my family, what the frak should I go with you?" Cain was going to abandon their families on ships without FTL's or supplies, leading them to a slow death in space or certain destruction from the Cylons. I'm sorry but you're not going to get loyalty and hard work from the conscripts if you kill their families. A person with an elementary school education would be able to figure that out...you think an admiral would to.

Making things worse is Adama defending Cain's sadistic decision, proving that he is not only stupid but morally bankrupt. There was another way to bring those conscripts on Pegasus willingly....bring over their families. And if they were still not willing to come over, just kidnap the families. How the hell are you going to hold any power over them by killing the only thing that these conscripts have left? There are times that the BSG writers just didn't think about the details...they just wanted to go with the shock value.


I totally, agree that the BSG writers wrote crazy stuff just to get some kind of shock value out of the audience (even when it would have made more sense if something else happened) and solely in the name of drama (one example was the "death' of Starbuck back in Season 3).

The whole issue with Cain was that she was supposed to be an antagonist for Roslyn and Adama (well, okay for the whole Fleet) and she had to do something bad to justify the actions (of Roslyn and Adama) that came later (such as Adama's ordering Starbuck to assassinate her); which was the story of her leaving hundreds (maybe thousands) of civilians for dead, in space and the fact that she turned out to be a sadistically cruel and crazy bitch, hell bent on revenge.

As, with Adama defending Cain' sadistic decision, I actually believe that he didn't really agreed with her but went along because she was his superior. We do know that Adama wanted Cain dead and told Starbuck to shot her but the only thing I was upset about that was that they had Gina killing Cain, instead of Starbuck killing her (and it was hinted that Starbuck actually was agreeing with Cain on many issues and it could have been a great way of seeing who Starbuck was more loyal to; Adama or Cain, the Colonial Admiral that she liked and expressed that the Fleet need more officers like her). Plus, having Gina killing Cain, also wipes away any moral qualms about Starbuck's assassination mission.

Although, I do agree that the writers did have the characters do stupid stuff that was used only as shock value and they could have found newer (and smarter) ways of telling the story without the characters acting stupid.

Edited by TVspectator, Sep 9, 2012 @ 1:27 AM.