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You BASTARD!: The Kripkeeper (& Other Showrunners)


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#631

zombooni

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Posted Apr 24, 2013 @ 10:00 AM

I remember people claiming that Bela and/or Ruby were requested by the network.

What I remember Kripke saying about Bela is that he took his season 3 outline to Dawn Ostroff and Ruby was already part of the plan, but she requested a second recurring female character. Bela had already been written into "Bad Day..." so Kripke offered her up as the second female, one for each brother is my guess.
I thought this was huge interference coming directly from the... what was Ostroff, the CEO of Entertainment or something? and couldn't believe she would so obviously stick her nose in. So now I wonder, did Carver submit his proposal for this season and it came back covered in red ink? Status quo must be maintained at all times? Is each script vetted by some little pencil pusher and Carver is obligated to keep them happy ahead of writing the story he wants to see?

#632

stateofrest

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Posted Apr 24, 2013 @ 10:46 AM

Status quo must be maintained at all times?

Even at the disadvantage of the show? Because if this is the case, it's pretty self-destructive, in my opinion.

Edited by stateofrest, Apr 24, 2013 @ 10:47 AM.


#633

zombooni

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Posted Apr 24, 2013 @ 11:34 AM

Even at the disadvantage of the show? Because if this is the case, it's pretty self-destructive, in my opinion.

This is what I wonder. For the network, making money is the bottom line, so did someone say "Jensen and Jared must appear together in 85%'of the scenes" or "flashbacks would be better than having them seperated for four episodes so lets go with that".
I just wonder how much autonomy a showrunner really has with their storylines and how these decisions are made.

#634

Iguana

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Posted Apr 24, 2013 @ 11:51 AM

At this point, Supernatural has such seniority and stable ratings that I doubt the network is micromanaging it at all. They have so many other problem series to worry about in the schedule, and I would be very surprised if the network asked Carver for more than a broad outline, and was okay with anything as long as he didn't kill off the leads permanently and there was enough room to go to season 10.

#635

steve91199

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Posted Apr 24, 2013 @ 2:45 PM

Thanks for answering my questions. I couldn't remember if there was a general "the show needs ladies" suggestion and that brought Ruby and Bela. Bela being the main one from the network makes sense. I also wonder if Jo and the Roadhouse were from the network, as Kripke said he hated the place and loved getting to tear it down.

I have a feeling Singer is the main one who thinks the brothers should be together all the time and the idea that people watch for this reason.

#636

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Posted Apr 24, 2013 @ 3:28 PM

At this point, Supernatural has such seniority and stable ratings that I doubt the network is micromanaging it at all. They have so many other problem series to worry about in the schedule, and I would be very surprised if the network asked Carver for more than a broad outline, and was okay with anything as long as he didn't kill off the leads permanently and there was enough room to go to season 10.


Never underestimate network bosses ability and desire to micromanage. Many not only see themselves as business visionaries, but creative ones. I'm not saying you're wrong, but there's also the flip side: this is one of their best performing shows, so they're invested in seeing it continue to succeed so they can take the money SPN makes and throw it at the struggling shows--usually for marketing.

This is what I wonder. For the network, making money is the bottom line, so did someone say "Jensen and Jared must appear together in 85%'of the scenes" or "flashbacks would be better than having them seperated for four episodes so lets go with that".
I just wonder how much autonomy a showrunner really has with their storylines and how these decisions are made.


Depends on the showrunner and his/her track record. SPN has had three showrunners. If you look at the show as a whole, there's a "brand stability" going on that really isn't impacted that much by each showrunner. IOW, while Kripke came up with SPN and exec produced for five seasons, after he left it was still a CW-type of show and didn't veer too far from what it had become by S3. While huge changes in a show are never a good thing, each showrunner should put their own individual stamp on their seasons--unless they're not able to, either because of their own lack of creativity or because they have to be lock-step with what the network dictates.

It's pretty much Writing 101 that flashbacks are massive failures, in print and onscreen, unless you're doing something totally new, crazy, and different with a flashback--like the whole season is one big flashback or the flashbacks aren't really flashbacks, just written so the audience thinks they are, etc. (and that's not even new or crazy). But choosing flashback over real time storytelling is a bad idea, since its awkward to transition to and takes the viewer out of the moment. How many times did the action grind to a halt when Sam's flashbacks occurred? Dean's were a little different since they were action flashbacks, but still--never a good choice.

From a storytelling standpoint, it would have been better to spend the season with Dean fighting his way through purgatory while Sam searched for Dean, each of them encountering new conflicts and monsters and problems, etc. If Sam had to drag Amelia and Kevin with him and Dean had Cas and Benny, fine. But that would have separated Sam and Dean, and those two being all up in each other 24/7 365 is core to this series, so yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if that was network determined. It would also have required ditching the MOW eps and delaying the mytharc--again, core to the series.

If ain't broke don't fix it--the business mantra. SPN is still pulling in ratings and money, so just keep on keeping on with the same thing. How visionary of them.

#637

zombooni

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Posted Apr 24, 2013 @ 6:21 PM

At this point, Supernatural has such seniority and stable ratings that I doubt the network is micromanaging it at all.

I thought it might be diffferent this season, what with Pedowitz being the new network boss (sorry, I don't know his exact title) and there being a new showrunner as well. I'd love to be a fly on the wall in a lot of their meetings about this show because I've always thought the backroom goings on would be fascinating.
I guess I was hoping for a bigger shake-up than there was, maybe an end to the endless gloom, doom and constant angst.

Edited by zombooni, Apr 24, 2013 @ 6:23 PM.


#638

steve91199

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Posted Apr 24, 2013 @ 6:53 PM

I do wonder sometimes if the younger characters, like Krissy or Kevin, might be a request from the CW, or a suggestion.

I guess I was hoping for a bigger shake-up than there was, maybe an end to the endless gloom, doom and constant angst.


I feel like there's been some change in tone, just not always executed very well.

#639

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Posted Apr 25, 2013 @ 9:30 AM

[snip]


Didn't Ostroff butt in and tell them to keep cASStiel going? He was only to appear in a handful of episodes.

Depending on what agenda you believe, I think they are setting up next season to completely seperate the brothers.

Which will suck.

Edited by TWoP Lockley, Apr 25, 2013 @ 4:45 PM.
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#640

bethy

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Posted Apr 25, 2013 @ 11:42 AM

I think they are setting up next season to completely seperate the brothers.


Sadly, for me at this point, given what they've done with Sam this season, having the brothers separated would at least allow me the opportunity to only watch the Dean episodes.

#641

morrigan2575

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Posted Apr 25, 2013 @ 11:54 AM

Depending on what agenda you believe, I think they are setting up next season to completely separate the brothers.

I was saying in this week's episode thread that I really believe they've been auditioning new partners for Dean. It's possible that next season will have the brother's be apart.

#642

steve91199

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Posted Apr 25, 2013 @ 12:23 PM

I can't see them doing that for very long (this season was probably the most believable opportunity and they still didn't), but I could see a few episodes that are Dean-lite or Sam-lite, like "Chrissy Snow makes a phone call," to give the guys more time with their kids. Then Sam or Dean might be with Cas, or someone like Charlie, or Krissy, or Jody, or Kevin. Or maybe one episode would have very little of Sam and Dean and would just be Cas, or Cas and another character at his side.

#643

Austinthecat

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Posted Apr 25, 2013 @ 12:38 PM

Depending on what agenda you believe, I think they are setting up next season to completely seperate the brothers.


This could actually be a good thing. Have them apart more often, doesn't have to be continuous, but each having their own missions that require separations. It could give each character time to get their heads on straight and reunite fully for the (potential) last season, but healthier and with less pointless angst. So if the writers were planning this, I think I could get on board with it. I know I'd love to see Dean on his own or with other partners more, it could show us who he really is.

Then Sam or Dean might be with Cas, or someone like Charlie, or Krissy, or Jody, or Kevin.


For this to work, the writers have to stop killing off characters, and to be honest I'd probably skip the Krissy and Charlie ones. Jody and Cas I'm all for though. And if Benny came back, him too.

#644

mizkat

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Posted Apr 25, 2013 @ 12:48 PM

For this to work, the writers have to stop killing off characters, and to be honest I'd probably skip the Krissy and Charlie ones. Jody and Cas I'm all for though. And if Benny came back, him too.


This. I wouldn't mind seeing Jody and Sam work a case or Benny coming back and working with Dean. And I don't have a problem with the brothers being apart--as long as it's external forces doing it, not more angst and misunderstanding between them.

#645

zombooni

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Posted Apr 25, 2013 @ 1:35 PM

Depending on what agenda you believe, I think they are setting up next season to completely seperate the brothers.

This would make me very very happy, depending on which recurring characters they're teamed up with.

Edited by TWoP Lockley, Apr 25, 2013 @ 4:48 PM.
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#646

amazinglybored

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Posted Apr 25, 2013 @ 1:56 PM

Depending on what agenda you believe, I think they are setting up next season to completely seperate the brothers.


Don't tease me, I'm so for that. I doubt they will though, I don't think they have the awareness, creativity or guts to do it. It's probably just an attempt to have characters to carry J2 light episodes for next season. They really do need to stop killing characters though, especially the good ones. Even if there are characters that I want gone, I'll put up with a horrible character if that means keeping a good one; it's reached that point.

#647

steve91199

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Posted Apr 25, 2013 @ 2:05 PM

They mostly seem to have stopped, aside from Meg (still wish they hadn't done that). Benny was killed but has the open-ended return. I kind of wonder if the CW talked to them about this. Probably not.

#648

amazinglybored

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Posted Apr 25, 2013 @ 2:14 PM

With this show, technically anyone has an open ended death. See: Bobby Singer

Possibly -probably- Mrs. Tran too: Meg, Benny, Lee. Even Alfie or Henry Winchester, if you want to consider them there might be more, IDK). But they were IMO, created to be killed, that might be a part of the problem. Anyway, I don't think they've stopped and there's still 3 episodes left to kill characters off in.

I doubt the CW has talked to them.

#649

steve91199

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Posted Apr 25, 2013 @ 2:34 PM

I have mixed feelings about a few of those deaths, like Henry and Samandriel, but I don't mind the idea of characters who are there to be killed. I mind it more when characters who could add to the narrative are killed off for shock value or a brief emotional reaction, which started somewhere around season 3 and then got worse and worse. I guess that's more for all-seasons though.

#650

zombooni

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Posted Apr 25, 2013 @ 2:47 PM

I doubt the CW has talked to them.

I bet they have, at least as far as what the network would like to see in the way of new, recurring characters. Krissy and Kate the werewolf are the best examples of what seems to be the CW's on-going aim for youth, and Kevin if he's lucky enough to survive. Then there's Charlie, a little long in the tooth maybe, but designed to bring in the nerdlings.

#651

guacamolewindow

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Posted Apr 25, 2013 @ 3:39 PM

Maybe I should have said the sane-er part of fandom? How about that?


I visit those sites too, and there's not a lot of sanity present in the 'brothers only' section of fandom either. It's the same comments by the same people, over and over again. It's about as useful a gauge of viewership as here. The majority (the people who watch the show but aren't bother with fandom) probably have no strong feelings either way. I doubt Carver has plans to separate the brothers on any kind of permanent basis, so I doubt the general viewing audience will care if Sam and Dean spend less time together. They don't watch the show on high alert for any incoming 'threat' to the brotherly relationship. They want to be entertained, and after eight years, something has to give.

#652

zombooni

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Posted Apr 25, 2013 @ 4:07 PM

Maybe I should have said the sane-er part of fandom? How about that?

How be you just speak for yourself leave it at that.

#653

TWoP Lockley

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Posted Apr 25, 2013 @ 4:52 PM

I can't even fathom why any one of you would think it would be OK to carry on a discussion about who can and should post what and why. You MUST know it will piss each other and me off. (It does). It is called talking about the boards on the boards and it's not allowed here. Never has been. Never will be. I am closing this thread and I may never reopen it again. There's already so much whining about the show itself, I will not stand for this back and forth about who should post what and how and when.

And, if you simply port your comments originally intended for this thread over to another one, you will be immediately banned.

Try me.

Edited by TWoP Lockley, Apr 25, 2013 @ 4:58 PM.