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The Plan: They Have A Plan?!


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#2071

stargzr

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Posted Aug 6, 2008 @ 12:05 AM

I tried to access both the video and blog. Sendspace said the video had been removed, and I got an error for the blog. Any other way to get to them?

#2072

yannik

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Posted Aug 6, 2008 @ 1:20 AM

This is why it's all been removed:

http://community.liv...news/93607.html

Please refrain from discussing the video here, too.

#2073

TWoP Bayliss

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Posted Aug 6, 2008 @ 10:52 AM

Please feel free to discuss anything you like, actually.

#2074

chesley

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Posted Aug 7, 2008 @ 2:40 PM

Pulled from the Spioilers thread - thanks Gepap!

I saw this on IMDB:

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0576425/

According to IMBD, the actor who played Zac Adama (Tobias Mehler) is featured in episodes 4.18 through 4.20. I wonder where they get their info.


IMDB is often unreliable but if correct in this case this could be a huge spoiler.
1 - Could suggest Zak is the final cylon, which has been speculated - if it is a "dead" character this makes the most sense to me, rocks the Adama's by his "resurrection", impacts Starbuck as well given their relationship, possibly ties into "Caprica" if Zak is based on a past Adama, and means that Leoben wasn't lying when he said an Adama was a cylon.

2 - Could suggest the "has happened before, will happen again" is literal and something causes everything to reboot to before the mini-series - which would explain the cast speaking of how they were revisiting the show from the beginning given the revelations at the end, some scenes from the previously posted video suggesting a return to prvious roles, the spoiler pics of Roslyn back on Caprica (probably a dream/vision), Bamber commenting on getting out of his flightsuit and Sackoff suggesting that wasn't permanent, etc. Maybe we watch the characters going through the same events but making different choices and it being worse, or better?

Wild specultation - Maybe they make the right choices (morally) this second time but it ends worse - Starbuck doesn't let Zak fly, he lives, but it has bad repurcussions; maybe a living Zak means Adama isn't retiring and Apollo isn't estranged but the Galactica gets destroyed in the attack as they are elsewhere; maybe Zak is a civillian and impacts Roslyn and she doesn't become the leader or discovers Baltar's role and stops it; Starbuck isn't the maverick and has settled down with Zak and doesn't play her role in saving humanity; in other words, perfect for the show to have the characters fix their "mistakes" and flaws but have the end result being that thinsg are worse in a holistic sense.

3 - Or could just be many flashbacks near the end, indicating who and how the strings have been pulled from the get go,a dn Zak is part of that...

Edited by chesley, Aug 7, 2008 @ 2:49 PM.


#2075

Luteba

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Posted Aug 7, 2008 @ 4:52 PM

On 1 & 2, maybe. My pick is that someone just stuck Zac on the imdb page to mess with our heads, because the only people who'd know he was in 4.2 wouldn't put it on imdb - and if they did, they'd know at least some of who else was there, and put them too. If they don't know who else was there, then their "knowledge" that Zac was can't be any more than rumour.

And if it did turn out to be a vaguely true rumour (you know, Zac's mom told her hairdresser kind of thing), then I'm guessing as per 3.: given all the other spoilers involving flashbacks/dream sequences, it's just more flashback(s) by any or all of Adama, Apollo and Starbuck.

Why? Because a Sliding Doors option, while briefly entertaining, wouldn't really address the main themes of the show (in particular, what it means to be human). And because Zac turning out to be the 5th would just be pointless.

Edited by Luteba, Aug 7, 2008 @ 4:54 PM.


#2076

theschnauzers

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Posted Aug 7, 2008 @ 9:04 PM

IF you follow that IDMb link, and look and the pages linked for episodes 4.19 and 4.20, some other information about the three episodes is also listed.

While IMDb is essentially a wiki system for information, there have been times an actor's agent or manager adds information in, or others who might have access to a show's episode cast list. I take it as a tantilizing possibility.

One other thought. DId we see the Moon is either 3.20 or the 4.12 finales? I keep thinking about a comment RDM threw out before season 4.0 started airing about how the characters think they found Earth. But we never saw the Moon, which I think would be an important clue confirming the location. (If Dotor Who made quite sure the show the Moon in the series 4 finale, when the Earth was returned home, then I can't imagine RDM overlooking that detail.)

#2077

Wouter2

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Posted Aug 8, 2008 @ 5:50 PM

Zak coming back isn't that big of a revelation, since the wrap video that has circulated on the net (including in this thread) shows 3 "dead" characters returning. Zak would be the 4th (the other are Cally, Kat and Ellen). And earlier, we had Elosha as well. They can't all be the final Cylon, but what is clear is that the last episodes are going to be flashback or hallucination heavy.

#2078

chesley

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Posted Aug 9, 2008 @ 12:11 AM

Sure, we've had other flashbacks/visions with dead characters who were active in the show, but if Zak really is back for the last 3 episodes, that seems to be a lot of flashbacks for a character who previously appeared in one episode.

I'm as skeptical as anyone about IMDB postings, but its listing the three episodes that strikes me as being an odd choice for a faked/speculated/rumored entry. A fake one might have just thrown out there 4.20, or if it was a simple flashback just one episode.

Zak fits very well into the spoilery news we've had about the last Cylon:

That the character was selected during the first season.

That Katee claimed the actor was "under contract" - she might be more likely to know that than anyone as she had the most scenes with him.

Aaron's claim that it wasn't someone "expected" - to me a character that virtually none of the cast interacted with due to being in only a few scenes wouldn't register with them as a likely candidate ether.

He isn't in the Last Supper picture.

Olmos assertion the writers were "sick" - maybe the origin of how Zak "became" a Cylon (did he replace the actual baby/child at some point, did something happen to Bill/Husker when he found the Cylon experiments in Razor we haven't seen yet), or Bill's reaction (does he and Apollo have to make a choice about Zak - Bill couldn't pull the trigger with Tigh, Lee couldn't step up this time either I'd suspect), really hits home in terms of horrible parent/child situations.

But most importantly, his re-appearance would resonate storywise with (arguably) the three main characters - Bill, Lee and Starbuck - more than any other possibility. From a storytelling angle it has the most bite, could cause the most conflict/tumoil both personal and political. I also think it fits with the clues we have been given, yet would be a "surprise" that is also explainable to the casual fan. And, its a way to explain many of the mysteries of the Final Five - how'd they get to be Cylons given their past, what is death like for them and can they resurrect, what was their purpose and were they programmed to attach to key humans - a resurrected Zak could be used to explain all of that...

I think if the IMDB post is legit and the actor is back, he must be the Final Cylon.

#2079

MBenzN

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Posted Aug 9, 2008 @ 2:45 AM

But he's not in episode 11, which we know is when the final cylon is revealed.

If IMDB is right, then perhaps he was going to come back for the final two-parter. As a ghost ect. However, we know that they got an extra hour; presumably it made sense to stretch his tenure out longer.

Besides, only three episodes to deal with the revelation of the final cylon? On top of everything else going on? Awful cluttered, awful unsatisfactory.

#2080

Wouter2

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Posted Aug 9, 2008 @ 5:42 AM

Isn't the final supposed to be composed of the running time of three regular episodes, at the moment? It could just say that he appears in the (very long) final. He could have small parts in each segment, or perhaps only appear once or twice yet get credit for the whole episode (with maybe more in deleted scenes, for the even longer DVD version).

#2081

Bacon

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Posted Aug 9, 2008 @ 3:32 PM

Maybe the humans that side with one Cylon contingent learn how to reliably project their reality, and that is the reason for ... "I see dead people"?

It's all about projection for them, right? And I don't see Ron dropping the ball on that fundamental reality for the Cylon.

#2082

chesley

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Posted Aug 9, 2008 @ 10:48 PM

MBenzN -

But he's not in episode 11, which we know is when the final cylon is revealed.


We know they shot a scene to reveal the final cylon which they could air if the strike caused the show to end with that episode - whether that scene, and even the person revealed - remains in the plans is hard to say. I could see the reveal to end the show with 4.11 being different than what the storyline is with 10 episodes to go.

Besides, only three episodes to deal with the revelation of the final cylon? On top of everything else going on? Awful cluttered, awful unsatisfactory.


Well, who knows what else is going on? They have to deal with what happened to the Earth, with the story behind Starbuck's return, with the Cylon civil war, with Baltar's cult and with Roslin's cancer. I don't see why the revelaing the final Cylon needs to happen right away, as I assume it triggers the "conclusion".

Wouter2 -

Isn't the final supposed to be composed of the running time of three regular episodes, at the moment? It could just say that he appears in the (very long) final.


Not sure, but its a valid point that an extended finale could consist of multiple episodes in terms of the numbering. If so, then the fact three are listed means much less as you point out. But I thought they had gotten extra budget to extend the finale, not to just combine episodes into the finale to air at one time -in other words there are still 10 weeks of shows to go, even if the finale is longer than normal.

#2083

crescentNight

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Posted Aug 9, 2008 @ 11:08 PM

Personally, I just don't see Zak as the Final Cylon.

Sure, it would have the potential for conflict for the main characters, but for us viewers, it wouldn't bring the emotional payoff that we so desperately want. We never got attached to the Zak character, and for him to be revealed as the FF, well, I would be kinda meh on that.

I would prefer the FF to be part of the main cast, even though we risk massive angst potential. (but isn't that what BSG is best at?:P) As long as it's not Kara, who is too obvious. But didn't RDM say that he left clues along the way?

#2084

funkmachine

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Posted Aug 10, 2008 @ 12:14 PM

the final cylon is someone we have seen before, but is not in the Entertainment Weekly picture that was at the start of season 4. In some ways, knowing these two facts doesn't provide much of an emotional payoff with regard to who the final cylon is. Part of me wonders if it is Gaeta - which would leave two maimed characters among the final cylons...

#2085

LilaFowler

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Posted Aug 10, 2008 @ 1:04 PM

the final cylon is someone we have seen before, but is not in the Entertainment Weekly picture that was at the start of season 4.


So says RDM, but I don't necessarily believe him.

#2086

MBenzN

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Posted Aug 10, 2008 @ 8:36 PM

We know they shot a scene to reveal the final cylon which they could air if the strike caused the show to end with that episode - whether that scene, and even the person revealed - remains in the plans is hard to say. I could see the reveal to end the show with 4.11 being different than what the storyline is with 10 episodes to go.


Then wouldn't the actor who played Zac be credited for 4.11, much as Callum Keith Rennie was credited for "The Hub" even though his scenes were deleted?

Well, who knows what else is going on? They have to deal with what happened to the Earth, with the story behind Starbuck's return, with the Cylon civil war, with Baltar's cult and with Roslin's cancer. I don't see why the revelaing the final Cylon needs to happen right away, as I assume it triggers the "conclusion".


In between the giant space battles and Roslin's cancer, both of which happen in the final episodes, that's still an awful lof of clutter. It would make far more sense for the character to be revealed earlier.

Sure, it would have the potential for conflict for the main characters, but for us viewers, it wouldn't bring the emotional payoff that we so desperately want. We never got attached to the Zak character, and for him to be revealed as the FF, well, I would be kinda meh on that.


I'd have to agree with that. Zac is a character who's had all of three minutes of screentime, in season one. I think a lot of people would be confused if he turned up as the final cylon -- the last time he was mentioned was back in "He Who Believeth In Me".

#2087

Lizardbeth J

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Posted Aug 10, 2008 @ 11:41 PM

Zac is a character who's had all of three minutes of screentime, in season one. I think a lot of people would be confused if he turned up as the final cylon -- the last time he was mentioned was back in "He Who Believeth In Me".


It was actually that mention in "Believeth" that made me suspicious of Zak. There was really no reason for Zak to be mentioned at all in that scene after being out of the show for so long - it struck me at the time that RDM was reminding the audience that Zak existed. Reminders like that usually presage the character coming back in some way. It doesn't mean that Zak's the final Cylon, but that oh-so-casual mention was purposeful. If he gets name-checked again by Kara to make sure we GET it, I'll bet money on him being the Final Cylon.


Since I'm here, I'll throw out my other theory of the day regarding the wrap party video, which is that all the characters we see with known dead characters are also dead (Bill Adama, Tigh, Tyrol, etc), and what we're seeing isn't Caprica or Earth, but some sort of afterlife/next turn of the wheel/across the river to Elysium place. We might not even be told what it is.

I'm also wondering if it's Anders who somehow opens the door to that. At comic-con Michael Trucco said there was nothing he could say about Anders' final fate, even though everyone else had an answer. Putting that together with RDM's podcast in the Hub when he says Anders' comforting the dying Eight is his fundamental nature as a Cylon, I think Anders is key to whatever is going on with the dead characters coming back in the finale. Which would be really exciting for me to see the promise of the Final Five actually fulfilled in that way, but maybe I'm just grasping for theories at this point...

#2088

chesley

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Posted Aug 11, 2008 @ 10:54 AM

I could see the reveal to end the show with 4.11 being different than what the storyline is with 10 episodes to go.

Then wouldn't the actor who played Zac be credited for 4.11, much as Callum Keith Rennie was credited for "The Hub" even though his scenes were deleted?


What I meant was, the supposed reveal filmed for 4.11 could have identified a different Final Cylon than what we will see in the full season (so if the final cylon is character A in the full season, the fall back in a shortened season could have been character B and a totally different resolution). Like an alternate ending.

Its all speculation of course. In the "Final Five" thread we've discussed many reasons why it could be any character and you can make very good cases for alot of them. I fall in the category that feels any of the remaining lead characters (the Adamas, Roslin, Kara, Baltar) have enough of a story arc without adding "Final Cylon" to it, so selecting one of them would be totally plot/explanation/twist driven and not character/interaction/drama driven; similarly any of the supporting characters (Gaeta, Helo, Dee, etc) would be like the other four in terms of reveal/issues, so it doesn't get you much in terms of the conflicts on the show. So a dead character, or someone on the periphery like Zarek or Elosha who was pulling strings, makes the most sense to me. Since Zak was a character I though made a lot of sense (after Zarek, my first choice prior the events after D'Anna came back), evidence he's in the last few episodes was like "confirmation" to me.

And I agree with Lizardbeth J, that scene with Bill and Lee mentioning Zak was forshadowing.

#2089

ooeygooey

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Posted Aug 11, 2008 @ 12:15 PM

I think Zac being the final cylon is rewarding to the long term fan. Starbuck is essentially responsible for his death, right? It is entirely possible that the death of one of the "final" five -- whether permanent or some variation of cylon resurrection -- set the entire storyline in motion. Upon his death, the cylons began planning the destruction of the race of humans -- Starbuck's destiny? Harbinger of death. I think it would make sense in a lot of ways, but I agree that to a casual fan it would be less satisfying.

#2090

Luteba

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Posted Aug 11, 2008 @ 5:22 PM

Wait! Marine Nowart is now listed on imdb as being in episodes 4.15 and 4.16. And he's been in 8 other episodes, which is a whole 7 more episodes than Zac. So even if they weren't in Season One, I reckon he must be the Fifth. Why? Because we know so little about him! Even on the Battlestar Wiki, he only gets a stub. Anyone that obscure, who's now been listed on imdb before the season even begins, MUST be the fifth!

#2091

drabauer

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Posted Aug 12, 2008 @ 4:52 AM

I'm also wondering if it's Anders who somehow opens the door to that. At comic-con Michael Trucco said there was nothing he could say about Anders' final fate, even though everyone else had an answer. Putting that together with RDM's podcast in the Hub when he says Anders' comforting the dying Eight is his fundamental nature as a Cylon, I think Anders is key to whatever is going on with the dead characters coming back in the finale. Which would be really exciting for me to see the promise of the Final Five actually fulfilled in that way, but maybe I'm just grasping for theories at this point...


Lizardbeth, are you suggesting that Anders is an Angel of Death/Charon kind of figure?

#2092

Lizardbeth J

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Posted Aug 16, 2008 @ 2:50 AM

Lizardbeth, are you suggesting that Anders is an Angel of Death/Charon kind of figure?


in a sense, I suppose, yes. Not in terms that he's one of the Lords of Kobol, in a literal sense. Well, maybe... I'm sort of fumbling around for a theory in the dark here - I have the edges to it, but not the part in the middle.

First of all, it may not be only him - he's just the most obvious, but it could be all the Five working together, perhaps with Kara or Hera's help, or something like that. As I said before, I'm doubtful given the interviews that we're going to have it All Explained to Us at the end anyway, so I might even be able to revisit this afterward. But just to be clear, I'm using Anders for convenience, because I'm more 'sure' of him, but it could be all of them.

So there's a Colonial belief in cycles of time. There is/may be an afterlife also and imagery related to boats, rivers, and meeting loved ones again ("Faith"). There is also an Opera House as the image of the space before resurrection for the Cylons - an Opera House from Kobol, and a structure which hasn't been standing in the 'real world" for thousands of years, and one where the Final Five (or some aspect of them) seem to exist. But in enough "real time" that the Five there have the appearance of the ones we know (this is important because it means the Five in the Opera House are connected in some way to the Dylons).

We also see bits of the finale where known dead characters are interacting with 'live' ones. now, there's two obvious choices: either the dead ones are alive again, or the living ones are dead. Assuming the second, that's a whole lot of people dying: how do they get from dying in the war to frolicking around in some sort of afterlife/do-over life/resurrection?

And it occurred to me that not only do we have a genuine "space between life and death" in the Opera House, we have someone(s) who "lives" there and who could, perhaps, in some metaphorical or literal way, open the door in between. Plus, we have either a joke or a serious easter egg clue in the boat that Roslin and Emily are on, with the numbers 9 -12 on it, taking them toward the opposite shore.

I will even throw out my theory of HOW this all will happen: Anders (or the Five) will DIE, in order to merge with the part that's stuck in the Opera House. After he/they do that, then... well, I don't know what the heck they are, but after they do that, then they'll be able to open the door. Now, taking the guiding images literally, that does suggest that they'll take the dead to an afterlife to be with their loved ones, and break the cycle of time so that all of this WON'T happen again. Or perhaps the role is to guide people from here to the next cycle, and that's what we're seeing.

Or, I've been staying up too late watching Beijing, and I want to connect all this when it's not connected at all. I realize that one Tribute/wrap Video and numbers painted on by clever VFX people are not exactly the best support for my theory of How it Ends. :)

#2093

drabauer

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Posted Aug 16, 2008 @ 3:23 AM

Thank you. That is one cool theory, and it would be an elegant way to end the series.

#2094

jillythadalin

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Posted Aug 16, 2008 @ 1:28 PM

Wait... I think I remember Zac in a flashback in season one? That flashback is a bit obscure though. Lovely and I thought I wasn't going to repeat the great rewatch but now I must go back and look for this image I'm thinking of, could anyone tell me which episode this was?

Edited by jillythadalin, Aug 16, 2008 @ 1:31 PM.


#2095

Morganne

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Posted Aug 16, 2008 @ 2:05 PM

Could it be with Earth a waste land, they head back to the Cylon homeworld and they start making copies of the loved ones they lost?

#2096

elvisgrace

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Posted Aug 17, 2008 @ 5:09 PM

jillythaladin - That would be "Act of Contrition"

#2097

Ms Chicklet

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Posted Aug 19, 2008 @ 6:44 PM

Maybe I'm reading too much of this from the Spoilers Only thread, but

Starbuck asking "Isn't there any way out of here" (possibly on Earth)


sounds a lot like "There must be some way out of here" from All Along the Watchtower.

#2098

stargzr

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Posted Aug 20, 2008 @ 11:11 PM

I noticed that also Ms Chicklet.

4 1/2 months left til we see what she means. Sigh.

#2099

oufti

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Posted Aug 21, 2008 @ 9:15 AM

Nice catch!!

By the way, I was thinking about the Opera House vision. We do know that Roslin, Six, Athena, Baltar and the final five are in this vision. I was just wondering if there will be more character before the end of the show. When I say more character I think about the Adama's, Starbuck and maybe someone else (Helo, Dualla...). I mean, a lot of the main characters are in this vision but no Adama, Lee and Kara.

#2100

crescentNight

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Posted Aug 22, 2008 @ 8:36 AM

I was just wondering if there will be more characters before the end of the show.


I don't think this is the right choice for this particular storyline.

A lot of people are wondering why Kara isn't in the vision, but I feel that all the women in the Opera House have some connection to Hera, and Starbuck could have been one of them once, but she's...changed, to put it lightly.

Also, if you think about it, any other character won't really fit. Even if Baltar's presence is there he doesn't really experience the actual "dreaming", and other men like Adama and Lee don't really have a place, a role, in this orchestration. Helo could be a possibility, but for me, it just disrupts the flow of things. Hope I still make sense, here.;)

Anyways, I have complete faith in RDM and Co. that whatever they decide to do with this will be awesome. As long as they don't completely drop this storyline, I'm good. (yay for more Roslin/Six interaction!)

As an aside, I'm still really bothered by that time Laura felt faint when they reached the nebula. I need a concrete explanation for this!