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19 Kids and Counting (And Other Duggar Family Programs)


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#27301

snarkmonster

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Posted Jan 18, 2010 @ 11:30 AM

The Duggars make me really mad. It's not acceptable for their own daughters to think about higher education to maybe become a nurse or a doctor, they must keep pure and sweet, but it's perfectly fine for someone else to send their daughter into the 'heathen' world to become one. I really dislike how they pick and choose what is good and bad just by what mood they are in at the moment. I'm sure when Michelle was having her babies at home she was thinking that non-hospitalized care was the only way to have babies, and then when it came time for medical intervention it was all fine and good because they prayed about it and God said it was okay to go to the hospital. Do they ever pray for things and God says no? When they pray about child 20 will God say yes, put your life and your babies life in danger because you have a womb that just won't quit? Grrrrr.
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#27302

NoPity1066

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Posted Jan 18, 2010 @ 11:49 AM

It's convenient to use the services of educated people, including women scientists or doctors, when it suits the Duggars and other Gothardites. The rest of the time, they will silently or publicly diss them.

Yes to this, Girlsrule. And what happens when they get their wish... ? They and all the other Gothardite families finally pump out enough kids to take over the heathen world, and then there are no doctors or dentists or anything else to help them in their time of need when they deign to accept "God's help"... ? They want the educated and resourceful to be stricken from the earth, but what will they do when they need those very people... ?

We wouldn't be here to see it, as we're obviously all part of the godless masses, but I suspect they'd say that they would simply pray on it, and suffer the consequences with sweetly smiling equanimity.

Meh.
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#27303

BeenThinkin

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Posted Jan 18, 2010 @ 11:59 AM

It's convenient to use the services of educated people, including women scientists or doctors, when it suits the Duggars and other Gothardites. The rest of the time, they will silently or publicly diss them.

They're a bunch of flaming hypocrites. They'd be better off leaving everything to God, including healing and whatever else. At least then they would be true to their word.



So let me make sure I understand. The practical success of the Duggars' lifestyle and beliefs is DEPENDENT on the comfortable assumption that the majority of society will NOT agree and will live differently.

If everyone adopted the Duggar norms, there would be no one left surviving in a matter of one or two generations, as there would be no educated people to protect the blind-faithers from the consequences of their choices.

The idea of a group of entitled people who believe they are part of a small, elite class (which I think the Duggars do believe) owing their prosperity and well-being to a massive sub-class of industrious, hard-working people, all the while harboring disdain or contempt for those "others"--

this is the same pattern that built America on the backs of slaves. It is the same pattern that made France and America rich on the controlled poverty of Haiti and other third-world countries. The similarity of mindset and attitude is just appalling to me.

We are enabling the dependency of families like these. Whether we want to or not. And the success of the TV show (and resultant cash cow for the goldDuggars) is just the most obvious symbolic representation of that enabling.
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#27304

Memphis05

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Posted Jan 18, 2010 @ 12:44 PM

That's what kills me. If it truly were in God's hands then she would not have survived. It is man and technology outside of biblical ethos that makes survival possible. It's educated and working men AND WOMEN that makes possible our standard of medicine.


I agree with you wholeheartedly.

As far as Josie surviving due to modern medicine and professionals and not due to God's will, I can see Michelle and JB making the argument that God blessed them with modern technology therefore Josie survived by God's will.

IMO, these people won't stop reproducing, they'll see Josie's early birth as a test and continue to follow Gothard even more strictly.
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#27305

snarkmonster

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Posted Jan 18, 2010 @ 1:11 PM

IMO, these people won't stop reproducing, they'll see Josie's early birth as a test and continue to follow Gothard even more strictly.

I agree, and that's the scary part. They won't stop, even though their future children and mother's lives are at risk. Josie's birth should have been a wake up call. Maybe she had a hysterectomy this time due to complications. I can't imagine the shape that her uterus is in with all those pregnancies and c-sections. Is it wrong that I hope her uterus has been given a much needed rest? I say this only for the health of Michelle and her children.
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#27306

RachieLnnn81

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Posted Jan 18, 2010 @ 3:31 PM

I worry about Michelle carrying another baby to term. When she gets pregnant with j'20, and you know she will, what happens if the baby doesn't survive? Will they try again to hit that magical number 20? How many times would they try and try again, even if Michelle's health were to be at sake?

I'm looking forward to the new episode. I've missed fresh snark.
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#27307

tvmakesmesew

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Posted Jan 18, 2010 @ 3:48 PM

IMO, these people won't stop reproducing, they'll see Josie's early birth as a test and continue to follow Gothard even more strictly.


What worries me about this is how it will affect the older children in the family. I worry about another 'sin in the camp', or some other way to blame any misdemeanors of the older ones for what's happening with Josie. This isn't fair at all- not using birth control is JB and Michelle's choice, if they make stupid choices and have birth complications then they are to blame.
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#27308

Puppy Child

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Posted Jan 18, 2010 @ 3:51 PM

I caught the Mackynzee birth episode the other night, along with the one where Michelle and Anna go shopping for baby stuff with the older girls and the one where Josh and Anna take baby Mack to the doctor for the first time, and something struck me funny.

In the "Girls go Shopping episode, during phone call with Michelle, Jim Bob lists all of the things the kids have done that day and makes a point of saying "They all did their schoolwork. We got that all done."

Then in the episode where they take baby Mack to the doctor for the first time, Josh has a hard time getting the baby seat into the back seat of the Jaguar (Jaguar? Really, Josh?) and a pop-up says "Even though he's got 17 younger siblings, Josh is not an experienced baby-wrangler".

It's like someone on the production staff is reading this website and alternating between showing that the Duggars aren't that bad ("See? They DO do schoolwork!") and admitting that the Duggars are huge hypocrites ("You all are right about the division of labor: even with 17 younger siblings, Josh had never changed a didie in his life until he had a kid of his own.")
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#27309

snarkmonster

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Posted Jan 18, 2010 @ 4:12 PM

I hope Josh and Anna are taking a good look at baby making now that they have baby #1. I bet they never realized how expensive it is to raise a child, even when you buy used and save the difference. Maybe this will deter them from having a super sized family. It's hard to have a boatload of children when your used car lot is not doing so hot. I think Josh may be becoming a little more liberal since leaving the child zoo that was his former home. It'll be interesting to see what happens in the future.
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#27310

irisheyes

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Posted Jan 18, 2010 @ 5:03 PM

It's convenient to use the services of educated people, including women scientists or doctors, when it suits the Duggars and other Gothardites. The rest of the time, they will silently or publicly diss them.

They're a bunch of flaming hypocrites. They'd be better off leaving everything to God, including healing and whatever else. At least then they would be true to their word.


Plus, their beliefs fall apart when you consider various parts of the Bible. First, two books in the New Testament were written by Luke, a PHYSICIAN who was also a missionary with Paul. So, obviously, he wasn't too heathenized. There are also numerous examples of working women just in the book of Acts alone. While JB and J'Michelle wanted her to stay at home and homeschool their kids, to imply that people who don't are evil and godless is not really supported by anything Biblically. (However, they follow the Bible of Bill Gothard, so who knows what's actually printed in that one!)
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#27311

PlathsDaddy

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Posted Jan 18, 2010 @ 6:41 PM

As far as Josie surviving due to modern medicine and professionals and not due to God's will, I can see Michelle and JB making the argument that God blessed them with modern technology therefore Josie survived by God's will.



So what would they say if JosieCat took a turn for the worse and crashed? Would their view all of a sudden do a 180 and become "Twenty years ago she would have never made it this long" or something to that effect without giving props to modern medicine at all? I ask because right now I know a micropreemie about Josie's age who was doing so well, but over the weekend things took a serious turn for the worse and it's not looking good. Reminder to the Duggars, Cousin Oliver and all their fans who tihnk these people are somehow invicible: they're not. What they are is unbelievably lucky and if our Pussycat pulls through all this with no residual problems, they have to be the luckiest people ever and will go for #20 without a second thought.

Seriously, it's easy to trust in Jesus when the worst thing that happens to you is having to find a house in short order because the tinker toy project isn't finished, but are then bailed out by TLC, who has provided them unbelievable wealth solely based on the sheer number of kids they have. Those who are born again, in my experience) are often brought to that point by disease, horrific circumstances stemming from mental illnesses like drug addiction (generally once said person gets into a 12 step program), or sheer guilt (I think this is how Michelle got "in"...she was made to feel guilty for parading around in a bikini top and shorts in public. Boob was pretty much born into it and unlike most of us who quesitoned religion at some point, he went lockstep and with Gothard and Vision Forum, even beyond what JL and Mary instilled in him (and frankly, I didn't think JL was very religious...not uncommon in married couples).
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#27312

McKay

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Posted Jan 18, 2010 @ 7:50 PM

"Even though he's got 17 younger siblings, Josh is not an experienced baby-wrangler".

Somehow this continues to make my blood boil. I would bet all my money that if the first four or five had been boys, they would've shut down the assembly line.

Seriously, it's easy to trust in Jesus when the worst thing that happens to you is having to find a house in short order because the tinker toy project isn't finished, but are then bailed out by TLC,

Which they thank JESUS for rather than TLC. It's like they seriously think Jesus is up there on a cloud saying "Huh, the Duggars are having some trouble building that house...what the hell, I'll fix it for them." But it makes sense, I guess. The Duggars have never been good at taking responsibility for anything that goes wrong.

Do you supposed they'd take Josie's death as a punishment for some perceived shortcoming, a la their miscarriage back when Michelle was on the pill? (And I hope to god we never, ever have to find out. You keep hanging in there, kid.)
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#27313

raina1049

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Posted Jan 18, 2010 @ 8:53 PM

Well if the Duggars do go for #20, I think there will be a serious backlash against them for reproducing recklessly. Look at the backlash that octomom recieved.
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#27314

expositer

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Posted Jan 18, 2010 @ 9:26 PM

"They want the educated and resourceful to be stricken from the earth, but what will they do when they need those very people... ?"

Hi, new here in posting, but I have been reading quite a while. I was just wondering why some folks think the Duggars and or Gothard want certain people struck from the earth?
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#27315

Victorian Xmas

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Posted Jan 18, 2010 @ 9:45 PM

Hi, new here in posting, but I have been reading quite a while. I was just wondering why some folks think the Duggars and or Gothard want certain people struck from the earth?

Just Google Bill Gothard and you will see what people mean
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#27316

kdbear

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Posted Jan 18, 2010 @ 10:02 PM

I'm not actually religous, but here's a thought anyway - maybe this whole Josie tragedy IS God's plan. Maybe the Duggar girls (and boys) will see what has happened and decide NOT to follow in their parents' footsteps, that this lifestyle just isn't worth it. Or even if Michelle were to become pregnant again, and if she were to die from complications, maybe the kids at least would take THAT as a message form God to not have babies when it's risking someone's life.
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#27317

PlathsDaddy

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Posted Jan 18, 2010 @ 10:14 PM

Welcome kdbear! I have to disagree with your statement somewhat because the older girls were well aware of Kelly Bateses' near death experience after the birth of Callie last August. I have a feeling the older girls are schooled to believe complications are something that tend to happen to older ladies, although it's hard to say exactly since we aren't privy to their entire circle of ATI acquaintences.

I have a feeling the older four are more than anxious to pop out their first pup or two, so as to put them equal footing with Anna; these QF's seem to be a competitive bunch in that sense. Look at Boob, whom we've almost unanimously decided he's going in for #20, Michelle's heath be damned.
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#27318

GeoBQn

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Posted Jan 18, 2010 @ 10:40 PM

Is the commercial for the birth special posted anywhere? I keep flipping back to TLC for commercial breaks, but I haven't seen it yet.
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#27319

Backpack

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Posted Jan 18, 2010 @ 11:29 PM

Well if the Duggars do go for #20, I think there will be a serious backlash against them for reproducing recklessly.

I think so too, but they'd probably ignore it.

A #20 might push the older girls to the breaking point. They may have taken some heat for not helping J'Michelle rest enough when she was pregnant with Josie. If this is the case (and who knows) they'd have to work even harder if J'Michelle got pregnant again, only to be rewarded with another baby for the next designee to raise.

If the older girls revolt then the Duggar machine will likely grind to a halt. This could explain their 'vacation' to Gothard camp last summer - to remind them of their responsibilities.
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#27320

ladypuglover

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Posted Jan 18, 2010 @ 11:30 PM

If everyone adopted the Duggar norms, there would be no one left surviving in a matter of one or two generations, as there would be no educated people to protect the blind-faithers from the consequences of their choices.


Well we made it thousands of years with the Duggar attitude so I doubt we we all die. We would just have a throw back to the middle ages or worse the dark ages, but the hartiest would survive.

Such a shame too because where would we be in the world without the Stephen Hawkings or Theodore Roosevelts. I myself wouldn't have survived my mother's pregnancy almost 40 years ago if not for modern medicine and would have died a thousand times over before reaching adulthood.

Oh and welcome to all the newcomers!
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#27321

PlathsDaddy

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Posted Jan 18, 2010 @ 11:41 PM

It'll be interesting to see if there's any difference in Jana since she's had some distance from her reprogramming...errr...spiritual retreat. IIRC, she may have also gone to El Salvador this year since she stayed home last year, leaving Jill at home with Boob and Michelle Boob staying home is, in retrospect, a huge red flag that there were imminent problems, but I guess they'd laid out a lot of money for the plane tickets and to cancel 10-15 tickets (I'll assume Anna stayed home with Mack), but everyone else from Joshie on down, save Jana, to possibly the twins (they're a year younger than Joy and she went last year) went on this junket. I imagine, being over 21, married and a daddy, Joshie can take over the "man" role for this type of undertaking.

Still, it had to suck big time for the family to hear about Josie after the fact. Also, the pic someone saw when Michelle looked like "Hell," when was that taken? Wasn't she out of the hospital doing her best Carrie Nation impersonation less than a week after the c-section? If she had to have a complete hysto, wouldn't she have had a longer stay? My sister was hospitalized for a week following a c-section and hysto, but that was ages ago.
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#27322

jumper sage

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Posted Jan 19, 2010 @ 12:26 AM

"Even though he's got 17 younger siblings, Josh is not an experienced baby-wrangler".

Somehow this continues to make my blood boil. I would bet all my money that if the first four or five had been boys, they would've shut down the assembly line.

You are on to something here. In an episode this season Michelle said that God had a good plan in her having the older girls all first before the string of little boys came along.

ETA because you are on to something and not on something tee hee.

Edited by jumper sage, Jan 19, 2010 @ 12:27 AM.

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#27323

beanmam

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Posted Jan 19, 2010 @ 12:41 AM

It could possibly be that the Duggars will take the attitude that J'Babymaker was fine during the pregnancy (aside from hypertension, etc) but Josie wasn't. I know that sounds confusing but when I was pregnant with Tween Bean and his twin AngelBaby Bean, the doctor kept saying I wasn't doing pregnancy well but the babies were doing fine (right up until delivery, when everything went to hell). Didn't J'Babymaker have hypertension in some of her other pregnancies? I know this all sounds stupid, I'm just thinking of the excuses the Jippidoodas will make while planning #20. I'd like to say we've heard it all, but I think we'll hear something REALLY ridiculous this time around.
Why do they have to go to El Salvador? I've been to Arkansas and there were some really poor people there, some even living in shacks. Why don't they take the money for the El Salvador plane tickets and trip and use it locally? If they want to claim there are no poor people in ARK, then spend a little of the El Salvador money and come up here to Chi-town. I'll show them people who have no heat, water, electricity, food, proper shoes and clothing for themselves and their kids. I'll show them people who live in substandard conditions and don't even have beds for themselves and their children. I'll show them people who can't even afford the basic necessities of life, i.e soap, shampoo, laundry products, toilet paper, etc...
Why do people always got to go to a foreign country to find poverty?
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#27324

chemjen

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Posted Jan 19, 2010 @ 3:11 AM

I'm also new to posting on TWOP, but have been lurking for a couple of shows for a while.

Is the commercial for the birth special posted anywhere? I keep flipping back to TLC for commercial breaks, but I haven't seen it yet.


Ditto, I've been trying to catch it too, and I don't know how many more previews of BBQ Pitmasters I can take.


As for the mention of J'Uterus and J'Helmet Hair attending rallies and liquor protests at this point in time, this just blows my mind. I know they can't be there at the NICU all the time, but it seems like they would be devoting a good amount of time to visiting Josie and meeting with doctors to plan her care, plus the other children at the rent-a-mansion who must be pretty upset. Seems to me that their hands are pretty full with their own family, but alas, when have the J'Parents tended to the kids' needs before? Why do I even ask myself these questions when I can answer them in my own post? I would say that they were being forced to provide material for the show, even now, but a protest rally over something so polarizing is not usually how TLC rolls.

Hope this isn't too long for the first one, and maybe I'll be welcome into the fold for the upcoming "19" incarnation, which will, God willing, be the last name this show ever has.

Edited by chemjen, Aug 11, 2010 @ 12:41 AM.

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#27325

CarolMK

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Posted Jan 19, 2010 @ 12:16 PM

No matter how TLC shows us this upcoming episode of Josie's birth, this is a very serious and dramatic delivery...and I really hope the actual birth itself wasn't filmed since it was an emergency. However, I do think that the Duggar show has a lot of children watching along with their parents....I know my 14 year old niece is a big fan, along with my SIL. Will this be too much for her to handle watching? And yes, I do think that within a year or less, we will be dealing with Michelle being pregnant again...and possibly not being able to carry the next baby to term. Didn't this happen to Kelly Bates twice before their last baby born in August? How is TLC going to continue presenting the Duggars in a totally positive, family-friendly image when there are so many risks involved to Michelle's health? I agree with whoever posted upthread that Michelle looked really BAD after Jordyn was born. Jim Bob was asking her what to name the baby, and she could hardly get the words out. The show may not edit out their religion, but it sure downplays it to the general public. How popular is the notion that this is all "God's will" going to be to the viewers?
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#27326

Puppy Child

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Posted Jan 19, 2010 @ 12:34 PM

If Michelle DOES get pregnant again after this, I really hope that TLC makes it clear -- even if they do it in those damn pop-ups -- that, given her age and the fact that she's had pre-eclampsia on more than one occasion in the past, she is taking huge risks not only with her own health but with the health of the next baby, who will probably be pre-term like Josie and may not be as lucky. That is, assuming Josie makes it and does not face significant health challenges as a result of her prematurity, which she probably will.

Because seriously, I think that getting pregnant again would be the most selfish, stupid thing Michelle could possibly do and if she and Jim Bob call it "God's Will" I might throw something at my TV. Taking risks with her own health is one thing, because we all know that if Michelle died the J-Girls would just keep on as usual and after awhile no one but Jim Bob would miss her, especially. She is getting to where she reminds me of the Queen Ant of a colony, pumping out workers who bring her food and take away the eggshells and feed the larva. But to knowingly take that risk with the life of their next child? I don't really even have a word for that kind of arrogance.

Edited by Puppy Child, Jan 19, 2010 @ 12:39 PM.

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#27327

KolyMane727

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Posted Jan 19, 2010 @ 3:25 PM

I knew if I watched TLC long enough the commercial for A very special delivery would come on! Seeing JB hold back tears like that brought tears to MY eyes =/

I'm looking forward to Jan 31st...
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#27328

tvmakesmesew

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Posted Jan 19, 2010 @ 3:32 PM

The only downside to finally seeing the baby 19 special commercial, is that they aired it during the re-run of the creation museum episode today. Yes, Jimboob looked very scared and sad, but the minute it goes back to the overly-preachy creation museum episode I just want to throw things at the screen.
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#27329

Madeleine Jane

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Posted Jan 19, 2010 @ 3:46 PM

I finally saw the commercial, and I teared up a bit! Jim Bob was really struggling to hold it together, and that just broke my heart. Say what you want about them and their beliefs, but I really believe that his world would be shattered if anything happened to his wife or babies.
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#27330

bathethecat

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Posted Jan 19, 2010 @ 4:01 PM

I'm hoping Josie is doing well but I'm still put out that TLC has taken such control over information from the family and appears to be so intrusive in the Duggars' lives.

Edited by bathethecat, Jan 19, 2010 @ 4:03 PM.

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