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Counterpoint to The Fight: Season 5


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#91

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Posted Nov 7, 2008 @ 10:51 AM

I was just thinking about Latent Image and I just realize how easily the whole situation could have been avoided. After Doc discoveres he's performed surgery on harry that he doesn't remember how hard would it have been to lie and say that there had been an accidnet that had damaged his program and the memory files had been erased? A cover story should have been in place in case he caught on thta something wasn't right.
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#92

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Posted Dec 10, 2008 @ 5:34 PM

He would still have looked into it and still have gone through the cycle. I think it would have been a nice opportunity to deal with the not so righteous pasts of some of our more important characters, in a sense, giving an airing to things they wished they hadn't done but can't change now, almost as a broader reading of the character, bottle story we got because the concept behind this one is really weird. Its very wrong that these people should be able to go into the Doctor, who is by this point a human being in all but a biological sense, and effectively partially lobotomise him, no matter what the reason. Whose to say that somebody can't do it again, but for less than benevolent reasons, after all, we've seen how vulnerable his ethical subroutines are to alteration after his assault on Seven during the 'Equinox' two-parter. But yet again with Voyager, they miss the mark....
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#93

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Posted Dec 10, 2008 @ 6:19 PM

But he only kept going because they kept lieing to him in obvious ways. Have everyone onboard with the same story, something happened, a few memory files lost, maybe make an real seeming attempt once more to get them back and fail and then distract him with something else. Instead they acted in ways that would make anyone dig deeper. An unkown crewman? An unknown medical manuever preformed by himself thta no one remembers? Not letting Seven of Nine in on the problem before hand, because really, only an idiot would have thought she wouldn't have sided with him on the matter.
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#94

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Posted Dec 11, 2008 @ 2:28 PM

I did wonder about that last bit. Seven maybe effectively constitutionally incapable of lying, or at least very averse to it, but would she not have seen the alteration of the Doctor's programme in similar terms to the alterations she herself underwent loosing what she would have seen at the time as, necessary bodyparts.

She's gotta wonder, when it comes to artificial intelligence or cybernetics or whatever, how much of the actions of this group of people is because they need to and how much is it because it suits them to do it a certain way. Was he being fixed to suit their needs so he stayed productive to them rather than receiving the treatment rather than more conventional help? Was she effectively forced to become human because it suited Janeway and not because she particularly needed to? I can't help but wonder whether she wouldn't see the two things as much the same, in the end, choice has been taken away and a fundamental change forced upon them. Not to mention the fact that they are both still permenantly vulnerable to the same thing happening again, the Doctor could have his programme altered at any time Janeway saw fit, there's no reason to believe that Janeway couldn't just decide that hey, she's human, she doesn't need an abdominal implant anymore or whatever. They are both in the end, technological and reliant on the ship to function in a way that nobody else is, this whole episode probably would make her very wary indeed about just how safe, how secure either of them are in the long-run or how far the rights all Federation citizens really extend to them. Money says that B'Elanna wouldn't make a distinction between having to fix something that was 'broken' and individual choices, hell it was probably her who came up with the idea of removing the 'problem' in the first place, treat it like an engineering problem to be solved rather than a medical problem, which was what it was, essentially, just that the patient wasn't a biological entity. This is where Kes could have come in really useful as well, she would get it right away, damn Harry Kim!
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#95

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Posted May 28, 2009 @ 10:18 PM

A couple of weeks ago, SpikeTV stopped airing Voyager smack in the early part of Season 5, the bastards. Last episode I caught was "Thirty Days". They'd better bring it back soon! I thought things were cruising along nicely.

(Although a 2 AM airing is a bit of a death yard, my DVR does not care. Then I can fast forward through all of the Extenze, Viagra, and Post-T-Vac ads.)
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#96

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Posted Mar 10, 2013 @ 5:31 PM

Moving on with my rewatch...

Night: somewhat interesting concept. I remember Captain Proton, although mostly from the awesome Bride of Chaotica episode. I think I am at the point where I wasn't religiously watching every episode of Voyager. I don't remember this episode really.

Drone: I suppose I should be getting tired of the Seven-centric episodes but I enjoyed this. Some nice performances from Jeri Ryan and the actor playing One.

Extreme Risk: Total misfire for me and I'm not sure why. It might have been the somewhat lame wrap-up. The stuff B'Elanna was dealing with should have taken awhile for her to resolve (yeah yeah I know they weren't doing arc story lines on Voyager. Doesn't mean I'm wrong).

In the Flesh: Absolutely no memory of this one. Despite it being a Chakotay-centric episode, I quite enjoyed this. I am still unclear why the hitherto awesome Species 8472 should need to create space camps so they can infiltrate the alpha quadrant, but if I ignore the illogic of that, it's a pretty good episode.

Moving on with my rewatch...

Night: somewhat interesting concept. I remember Captain Proton, although mostly from the awesome Bride of Chaotica episode. I think I am at the point where I wasn't religiously watching every episode of Voyager. I don't remember this episode really.

Drone: I suppose I should be getting tired of the Seven-centric episodes but I enjoyed this. Some nice performances from Jeri Ryan and the actor playing One.

Extreme Risk: Total misfire for me and I'm not sure why. It might have been the somewhat lame wrap-up. The stuff B'Elanna was dealing with should have taken awhile for her to resolve (yeah yeah I know they weren't doing arc story lines on Voyager. Doesn't mean I'm wrong).

In the Flesh: Absolutely no memory of this one. Despite it being a Chakotay-centric episode, I quite enjoyed this. I am still unclear why the hitherto awesome Species 8472 should need to create space camps so they can infiltrate the alpha quadrant, but if I ignore the illogic of that, it's a pretty good episode.
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#97

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Posted Mar 11, 2013 @ 8:44 AM

I don't think B'Elanna is suddenly over her problems, she's just begun the process of moving on. I'm not sure if you'll get to see signs of it though. In The Flesh is the last appearance of Species 8472.
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#98

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Posted Mar 11, 2013 @ 11:48 AM

Night was good because it rang so true ... it was only natural that the situation would cause Janeway to question her decision to remain in the Delta Quandrant, have the crew on edge, etc. I liked all that a lot more than the MOTW.

Drone was fantastic. That is all.

Extreme Risk: Every season, it seems, had a "B'Elanna deals with her issues" episode. While I usually enjoyed those, I thought this one was the weakest of the bunch.

In the Flesh: That rarest of jewels -- a good Chakotay episode. The Starfleet Academy replication made sense to me ... what better way to understand your enemy than spend some time in their shoes? And Mulgrew and Ray Walston were good, also.
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#99

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Posted Mar 11, 2013 @ 2:35 PM

The catch in her voice as she tells him, for the second time, "you are hurting me," followed by his, "you will adapt"


I think this is a wonderful scene. I'm rewatching Voyager for the first time since its original airing (and enjoying lurking on your season-by-season rewatch threads) - and even back then, I only watched sporadically. Something about having small children and being in grad school...

Anyway, that scene with 7 and One was one stuck with me from the original airing.
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#100

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Posted Mar 18, 2013 @ 8:02 PM

Once Upon a Time: I admit to liking Naomi Wildman. I could have done without the Flotter character--I thought holodeck stuff only came along with TNG so I'm confused as to how all these other characters had encountered Flotter, but whatever. It was a nice episode and I didn't hate Neelix. Victory all around.

TImeless: Ugh. That was a waste of my time. It was painful watching Garrett Wang trying to emote. I realize this is a popular episode, but it just wasn't resonating with me. There's no tension. Obviously they are going to get the ship back. I can't really bring myself to care.

Infinite Regress: Wow. Tour de force performance from Jeri Ryan. I know they overused her, but damn that woman can act. I would rather see 10 Seven-centric episodes in a row than see 1 Harry Kim or Chakotay centric episode.

Nothing Human: I had a hard time getting invested in this episode. I got the ethical argument, but they're in the middle of fricking nowhere. I would think by this point these are the kinds of moral compromises they would have become more accustomed to making. I think they could have made this work better but it would have required more set up than they would have been able to give to it.

Thirty Days: I vaguely remember this from the first time around. Kinda meh for me.

Edited by Luciaphile, Mar 19, 2013 @ 2:41 PM.

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#101

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Posted Mar 19, 2013 @ 5:19 PM

Finally! Someone else who doesn't worship Timeless like it's some work of art! I'd say Naomi Wildman (Subunit of Ensign Samantha Wildman) is the best child in all of Star Trek, though that's not saying much considering the competition. The moral dilema of Nothing Human is completely pointless since every other medical datatbase in the Federation possesses the exact same information. It wasn't new data or anything, they crippled themselves over nothing.
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#102

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Posted Mar 20, 2013 @ 11:24 AM

I enjoy "Timeless" well enough, until I start thinking about it too much. Then, I recall the tired use of the Magic Reset Button and the final scene with Harry talking to ... himself. And then I remember how much I hate most Trek episodes dealing with time travel. So, yeah, the episode isn't anything spectacular.

But, on the plus side, you have drunk Seven of Nine gushing, "We are as one!" That was priceless.

I had to look up "Nothing Human" online to remember what the ep was about, so that tells you how memorable it was to me.

"Once Upon a Time" and "Infinite Regress" were both solid episodes and utilized the Naomi character really well, I thought. I liked the chemistry between her and Seven.
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#103

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Posted Mar 22, 2013 @ 3:29 PM

Counterpoint: this one stirred some vague recollections for me. I definitely remember the inspections and the sleazy love interest Devore guy making himself comfortable in Janeway's ready room. I don't know that he was all that convincing in being attracted to her, but he wasn't bad. Mulgrew was actually pretty good in this episode. She's not the most consistent actor on this show. I read somewhere that she was going through a divorce so maybe that's it.

Latent Image: good interesting episode on several levels. It was annoying that they introduced a character we'd never seen before and yet who was apparently integral to the crew, but I'm trying to get past that. Robert Picardo and Jeri Ryan both did some nice work in this.

Bride of Chaotica!: This was fun. I remember this one and it was awesome on the rewatch. The bemused/irritated looks everyone gives Tom throughout his whole Captain Proton phase are priceless. It helps that RDM looks like he could totally be cast in the lead of a 1930s Saturday morning serial. When the Doctor appeared looking vaguely like FDR, I just lost it. Also that great exchange between Tom and Tuvok. Tom talking about a death ray and Tuvok deadpanning "it's a shame we don't have one." Great stuff all around!
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#104

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Posted Mar 22, 2013 @ 8:16 PM

Latent Image suffers from the flaw of it not making sense how they handled it. Why create an eloborate web of lies, one which you neglect to inform Seven about despite her being the most likely to be able to undo all your data deleting, when they could have just deleted his memories and told him mostly the truth, skipping the part that caused the breakdown.
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#105

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Posted Mar 24, 2013 @ 6:15 PM

Gravity: OMG, it's Lori Petty. Other than that it's a boring episode. For once someting Tuvok-centric failed to capture my interest.

Bliss: Heh, and W. Morgan Sheppard having a ball as Ahab, er Qatai going after the monster. Some nice work from Jeri Ryan and the little girl who plays Naomi Wildman.

Dark Frontier: Rather good episode all around. The Borg Queen never did much for me (in the movie played by Alice Krige) or here. The contradictions of the concept make no sense. Also, I had thought the Borg ignored small snips and pockets of people? Or no? It doesn't make a lot of sense to me. They want to assimilate absolutely everyone from a species? WTF? Also, the whole psychological manipulation thing, the illogic of it all. Not the best writing here. On another note, Janeway is as arrogant as Seven's parents. Nice work from Jeri Ryan though.

The Disease: That was boring. Harry Kim falls in love. Again. Yawn.

Course Oblivion: This is not a well constructed episode. Once we find out that the crew is not really the crew of Voyager, well, where's the tension? They're all biometic goo underneath. Why should I care? And when FauxJaneway insists on trying to get her crew "home" (home = Earth), there is another WTF on my part. The thing is RealJaneway does stupidass stuff like this all the time. It's not endearing. It's not admirable. It's just irritating.

The Fight: That was painful. Kid Chaos? Beyond stupid as an episode.
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#106

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Posted Mar 27, 2013 @ 12:19 AM

I don't find the Queen a contradiction at all, they've never come out and actually explained what the Borg really are, their history or how the Collective and the Queen works so there's little to actually contradict. A bunch of Starfleet officers made observations, assumptions and outright theories but that's not fact. You also need to factor in relevance to how they behave. If a species has useful biology or interesting technology then yes, the Borg want all of it. If not they take what they need and ignore you unless you're a threat. Emotional manipulation is to be expected, why shouldn't a Collective of billions of minds be capable of it? The question is why they care enough to try and coerce someone into working with them willingly. The Collective/Queen seems to desire an independent mind to guide them, possibly having recognised the value of creative thinking.
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#107

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Posted Mar 27, 2013 @ 8:33 AM

You make some good points about the Queen, TimeMonkey. I'll have to think about that some more.

Think Tank: I'm not the biggest Jason Alexander fan, but I thought he did some nice work here. He looked and sounded creepy. I also liked the concept of the episode. I kind of love that Seven thinks of the Voyager crew as her "collective" and is willing to do what is best for the good of the many. She's overused as a character, but she has made the show so much more interesting and enjoyable to watch.

Juggernaut: I totally remember this one. I liked it back then and I like it now. It's a bit cliche, but it's creepy and interesting. I do kind of wonder about B'Elanna these days. She seems a hell of a lot angrier than usual and it's been very inconsistently dealt with.

Someone to Watch Over Me: Some genuinely funny stuff here. I loved Seven's date with the hapless Chapman. I am not sure I completely bought the Doctor falling in love with her. That kind of stuff is earned and needs to be developed over multiple episodes to be effective.

11:59: Great to see Kevin Tighe, but other than that this is a misfire for me. The concept is fine. Family stories are often incorrect and get more so as they're passed down. Someone up the thread pointed out an inherent problem with this story. Kate Mulgrew was 44 when this story aired. Maybe I could buy that she was in her late 30s, but that she managed to have multiple children? Not so much. Story was kind of a miss for me.
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#108

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Posted Mar 27, 2013 @ 11:44 PM

11:59: Great to see Kevin Tighe, but other than that this is a misfire for me. The concept is fine. Family stories are often incorrect and get more so as they're passed down. Someone up the thread pointed out an inherent problem with this story. Kate Mulgrew was 44 when this story aired. Maybe I could buy that she was in her late 30s, but that she managed to have multiple children? Not so much. Story was kind of a miss for me.

Well, we are talking about early 21st-Century reproductive technology here. The episode was literally set on the eve of the turn of the millennium, and who knows what medical advances might have happened between then and the time that Henry and Shannon actually got married and started their family. Besides, it's also entirely possible that at least some of their children could have been adopted.
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#109

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Posted Mar 29, 2013 @ 6:31 AM

Well, we are talking about early 21st-Century reproductive technology here. The episode was literally set on the eve of the turn of the millennium, and who knows what medical advances might have happened between then and the time that Henry and Shannon actually got married and started their family. Besides, it's also entirely possible that at least some of their children could have been adopted.


Aren't we supposed to assume that ST's early 21st century Earth is our early 21st century Earth?

Anyhow moving on:

Relativity: I hate time paradox stuff but this was fairly well done. Bet Jeri Ryan was thrilled to not have to wear the facial prosthetics and the catsuit for part of the episode.

Warhead: Good story and some nice work from Robert Picardo

Equinox Part 1: This I remember. Olivia Birkelund who played Marla had a semi-regular role on All My Children as Kelly Ripa's hot mess of a mother. Also nice to see the future man-in-black from Lost. I suspect this was written as the answer to people who questioned why Voyager had remained so goddamned Star Fleet the whole time. I can't remember the resolution to Part 2 so maybe I should hold off commenting, but I have to say I found the way Janeway was written anc acted in this to be particularly weak. In her first one-on-one with Ransom, she claims she's not had to break the Prime Directive. Yeah, I don't know about that. If it's not been broken, which I suppose is arguable, they have seriously bent it more than once. And then later on when she's railing against him (quite justifiably), there's some depth lacking on her part. What the Equinox crew has done is heinous. No question. But it's like she's looking at them the way a desk bound administrator back home might have done. Their ship is less than half the size of Voyager. They had less crew and had suffered more losses. What happened to Equinox could have happened to Voyager. I would have liked to have seen something more from Mulgrew's performance or the writing to acknowledge that.

Fairly decent season overall.
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#110

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Posted Mar 29, 2013 @ 11:14 AM

Janeway admitts she's bent the rules. And I buy her reaction, these people took the Prime Directive, the single most important thing ina Starfleet officer's life, and spit all over it. It doesn't matter that their situation was less convenient, or that they were more desperate. They should have been willing to die rather than do what they did, that's the point of the oaths they take, uphold the values of the Federation, no matter the personal cost. It spits in the face of every sacrifice and hard choice Janeway and her crew have made. These people willingly trap sentient beings, murder them and use them for fuel.
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#111

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Posted Mar 29, 2013 @ 1:31 PM

I'm not arguing what they did was beyond forgiveness. I totally agree that their actions were horrifying. It's that I thought something was missing from the performance of Mulgrew. I found this in another thread and I think it expresses it better than I can:

Janeway's anger at Ransom in "Equinox" doesn't come from "that could have been me"; it's always from a point of moral superiority--"you should have known better."


I haven't seen Part II so I'm not sure if I'll still feel this way by then. I don't honestly remember Part II. I was definitely not watching VOY at all regularly by this point.

Edited by Luciaphile, Mar 29, 2013 @ 1:35 PM.

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#112

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Posted Apr 7, 2013 @ 8:01 PM

Yeah, that's the whole point. She's not thinking 'that could have been me' she would have died rather than do that, her crew would have died rather than do that, and the crew of the Equinox should have been willing to die as well but instead they chose to abandon their principals.

Edited by TimeMonkey, Apr 8, 2013 @ 9:14 AM.

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#113

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Posted Apr 8, 2013 @ 8:21 AM

In the second part, she has abandoned her principles as well. You can see it in that scene where she locks the Equinox crewmember in the room where the aliens can get at him. What she's doing is nearly as heinous as what the Equinox crew were doing. But there's no acknowledgement of that.
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#114

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Posted Apr 8, 2013 @ 9:18 AM

I think there is. Chakotay turns against her and Tuvok was straining how far he was willing to follow and Janeway herself eventually realises how over the line she is. The problem is that there's no consequences because she's the one in charge. That is an ongoing problem with Janeway's character, she has nobody to answer to but herself so she either gets away with things she should at least geta reprimand for or she takes too much onto herself and lapses into depression.
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#115

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Posted Apr 9, 2013 @ 10:32 AM

I always enjoy Voyager episodes where Beltran wakes up from his coma and actually acts, so part 2 of "Equinox" is one of my favorites. I just thoroughly enjoyed watching him call BS on Janeway's actions.

The show was always at its best, IMO, when it remembered that this was a mixed crew with mixed priorities, and any episode that had Chakoty and Janeway at odds was the better for it.
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#116

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Posted Aug 2, 2013 @ 10:20 AM

What I like:

 

Bride of Chaotica! - I've already rewatched this twice since my rewatch of the show started. Everyone, but especially Mulgrew is hilarious. It's just a very fun episode.

 

Counterpoint - This episode left me unsatisfied, but I think it's suppose to do that. It reminds me of Schindler's List, but the ending is very bittersweet. As I don't ship Janeway/Chakotay, this is probably the most chemistry Janeway would get on this show except with Q (who has chemistry with everyone).

 

Someone to watch over me - I can believe that the Doctor's feelings escalated quickly in this episode. He and Seven actually interact with each other than they do with anyone else (except Seven and Janeway). He's also been proud of her for a time now. But I completely agree that it was a OOC for Tom to make that bet since he's also been really positive about Seven in the past. That was a B'Elanna thing to do.

 

In the Flesh - I love Species 8472. They are probably one of the most fascinating to me, and I wish we explored it more. It's not the best plot, but a good one overall for them to end it on.

 

Drone - I like the Seven of Nine character even though the writers overused her. While I do dislike some of the other Borg arcs (Unimatrix Zero and the one with her former unit), this isn't one of them even though this episode reminds me heavily of the TNG episode Data created his daughter. Jeri Ryan is underrated, and she plays the emotions of losing One very quickly.

 

Bliss - Love Naomi Wildman especially when paired with Seven of Nine. What a great Moby Dick episode.

 

Relativity - This one is much better than Future's End. I like how both Seven and Janeway worked together too.

 

Warhead - I wouldn't rewatch this necessarily, but it's a good Doctor and Harry episode. The Doctor even has chemistry with a weapon.

 

Episodes I did not like as much:

 

Extreme Risk (not crazy about B'Elanna eps), Thirty Days, The Fight, Juggernaut (Malons are boring), The Disease, Nothing Human, 11:59.

 

Timeless, Gravity, Warhead, and Infinite Regress have some great acting moments, but ultimately, they just are not my favourite in terms of plot. I do think Latent Image is one of the better character episodes of this season probably because it's the Doctor and secondly, it deals with Seven and Janeway's discussion of privacy and individual (or hologram's) rights. 

 

Course: Oblivion - I really liked how the silver blood did clone the crew, but as an ending to that storyline, very depressing. I don't like how often they used the reset or alternate reality button on this show.

 

This show has some interesting characters, but often, the character-centric or character isolated episodes do not work as well as TNG.


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