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S2 and All Stars: Evil Dr. Will Hates Everyone In This Thread


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#1

VAHokies

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Posted Jun 14, 2006 @ 11:51 PM

He's the king. Comparing him to the other winners is laughable in terms of how he implemented a strategy. Oh yeah, he also was entertaining as hell.

#2

HellfireClubGuy

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Posted Jun 15, 2006 @ 1:55 AM

One of my favorite players and was highly entertaining, BB2 would have not been a great season if it wasnt for him.

Now, I have to admit I hated Chilltown, Shannon was a cold hearted bitch and Mike Boogie was the lamest asshole I've ever seen on this show. But after they were eliminated, Will brough his awesomeness come in to play.

He was deceptive, brutally honest, narcissistic and arrogant but he was also charming, funny and did show some sincerity (or maybe not!) a few times. However the best thing was how he manipulated so many of the people in that house and did it with such ease.

You know he was a charmer when someone like Nicole who just hated him would fall for it constantly!

Edited by HellfireClubGuy, Jun 15, 2006 @ 8:27 AM.


#3

Hey Im Jeff

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Posted Jun 15, 2006 @ 8:19 AM

I'll take the opposing side... He's the most overrated houseguest of all time. Sure, he did a good job of manipulating people, but that was it. He got extremely lucky and he basically Cowboy'ed his way through the game, constantly putting himself in vulnerable situtations where his luck could have run out at any moment. If it weren't for other people's stupidity, he wouldn't have made it halfway through the game.

Calling him the best player ever is a gross overstatement. If anyone is deserving of that honor, it's Danielle. She completely controlled the house, effectively choosing who would be evicted each week. She was directly responsible for Tonya, Eric, Josh, Roddy, Marcellas and Amy's evictions. Will was nothing compared to her, and I wouldn't be surprised if he's the first evictee on All Stars.

#4

Mekias

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Posted Jun 15, 2006 @ 8:57 AM

Danielle = best strategist to ever play the game.

No one even suspected that her and Jason were in an alliance together until the end. If it weren't for BB letting the evicted houseguests see her Diary Rooms, she might have won. She was also pretty funny with the "Roddy is the devil" schtick and all her impersonations.

That being said,

Dr. Evil = most entertaining houseguest ever

I give credit to Will for realizing that NOT winning competitions is a good strategy. But with that final speech of his, he almost gave away half a million dollars. I'd say that's the second dumbest move in BB history behind Marcellas not using his veto.

#5

swsa

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Posted Jun 15, 2006 @ 9:03 AM

Except that that *didn't* cost him the game. Which makes it one of the most awesome moves in my book. That's why I think he's the greatest player ever. He took risks, he was consistently in danger, and yet he came out on top every. single. time. And he did it with no real allies in the house after the first couple weeks and without ever being HoH. I'm not at all sure he can pull it off again, but I think if he makes it through that first eviction, he could go a long way. Because I think Will's adaptable. He'll switch stuff up. He'll kiss the asses of the people he hated the day before. He'll charm when he needs to. And he strangely is able to make himself valuable even to the house, by virtue of being fun to be around. I mean, even Hardy and Nicole, who *hated* him, admitted that they couldn't imagine the house without him and didn't know what they'd do if he was evicted.

#6

Mekias

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Posted Jun 15, 2006 @ 9:14 AM

Well, just because the final speech didn't hurt him doesn't mean it wasn't a dumb move. It made for great TV though. So I guess what I'm saying is that is was both an awesome and dumb move.

#7

VAHokies

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Posted Jun 15, 2006 @ 9:24 AM

Danielle sort of wanted to play Will's game - but lost. So that's the only reason he gets the nod over her.

#8

Hey Im Jeff

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Posted Jun 15, 2006 @ 9:27 AM

Danielle sort of wanted to play Will's game - but lost. So that's the only reason he gets the nod over her.

I'd say that would be more accurate if describing James. I don't think Danielle and Will's games were comparable. Danielle was the most powerful player in Big Brother history, whereas Will's strategy centered around not having any power.

#9

VAHokies

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Posted Jun 15, 2006 @ 9:35 AM

I'd say that would be more accurate if describing James. I don't think Danielle and Will's games were comparable. Danielle was the most powerful player in Big Brother history, whereas Will's strategy centered around not having any power.


I would agree with that. Danielle, though, pissed everyone off and only got 1 vote. Will did it and got enough to win.

#10

PhilMarlowe2

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Posted Jun 15, 2006 @ 10:16 AM

Okay, so the server ate my initial post when I started this thread and then wouldn't let me add it. For the record here is what I wrote:

Figured I'd get this thread started since the Kaysar (aka Cockula) thread has already begun evolving into a Will debate. Here he is - a player so controversial and divisive he's polarizing the boards before BB7 has even gotten underway. Love him or hate him, Will won arguably the best season of BB with weasel-like finesse that has become the gold standard for all other players. A target of his fellow houseguests and viewers alike after the first week, Will somehow survived the decimation of his Chill Town alliance and further pitted the remaining players against each other - all the while mocking, mimicking, betraying. Part charmer, part sociopath, part sincerely nice guy, Dr. Will holds a special place in reality TV history.


Personally, I love him!

#11

vanden

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Posted Jun 15, 2006 @ 3:39 PM

I loved Danielle and wanted her to win. I loved Will and wanted him to win. Both were great manipulators. But Will read his house better than Danielle read hers, so that gives him the edge as a player in my book. Both of them had housemates and potential jury members who would see their Diary Room confessionals. Will got away with mocking people because no one expected anything else from him and because he was up against someone whom they had expected something from -- Nicole. Danielle did her countdown and laid out her strategy in the Diary Room. It was seen by people who had trusted her and who believed she was on their side up to the point they saw those confessionals. (Well, except for Marcellas, who figured it out when she conned him into not using that Golden Veto in one of the all-time great moves ever.)

Will won as the lesser of two evils against Nicole and manipulated as much as he could to make sure that's who he was going up against. I'm not sure that he would have won against Monica, but Danielle's confessionals pretty much ensured she couldn't win against either Lisa or Jason. So I give the edge to Will -- but I would dearly love to see them go up against each other in the house.

Didn't Will and his buddy Mike Boogie (who I never want to see again, especially not in the BB house) own a restaurant that a lot of the LA reality types hang out at? As in Survivor:All Stars, I think a lot of relationships and/or friendships from outside the house and across seasons could come into play with BB:All Stars. Danielle's established those relationships, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if Will hasn't as well -- even if he was just giving people free rounds of drinks.

#12

Hey Im Jeff

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Posted Jun 15, 2006 @ 3:58 PM

Danielle's diary room comments were blown out of proportion, IMO. She made fun of a few people, but she was nowhere near as cruel as Marcellas (who was absolutely unrelenting in his bashing of other HGs). I don't think that her losing was a direct result of her DR entries. She two things that prevented her from winning were that (1) she angered the more persuasive jury members (Roddy and Marcellas), and (2) she was too apologetic when making her final pleas to the jury. I think Lori, Gerry, and Josh would have voted for her if it weren't for that.

#13

PhilMarlowe2

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Posted Jun 15, 2006 @ 8:11 PM

Moving this here since it's Will-related...

I was watching some of the first few episodes of BB2 the other day, and Kent said that he was upset that Bunky was warming up to Will despite the fact that Will had referred to Bunky as "a f*g."


Hmm, not promising on Will's behalf but also not the most damning evidence considering that it's second-hand information and also considering the hypocrisy of the source - even after cultivating a friendship with Bunky, Kent said in his Chenterview that he still considered homosexuality depraved and immoral. I remember being touched by Will's (seemingly) genuine connection with Bunky on the helicoptor ride. Call me an apologist, I just think Will has a politically incorrect sense of humor. So do I and so do my friends - that is why people like Will and Janelle don't offend me when they get off color. It never seems to come from a genuinely hateful or mean-spirited place (unlike, say, Kent or Robert or Justin or Cappy etc.). Plus, I really feel the live feeders would've been all over that if it had been witnessed - there was never really any discussion back in BB2 of Will's homophobia.

Edited by PhilMarlowe2, Jun 15, 2006 @ 8:13 PM.


#14

Jenn211

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Posted Jun 15, 2006 @ 9:02 PM

there was never really any discussion back in BB2 of Will's homophobia.

I can second that. I had live feeds and joined an IRC chat back then. We talked about every little things went on in the house. I don't recalled any discussion regarding Will's homophobic remarks in the IRC chat. If anyone was a homophobe, that would be Kent. If I recalled, I think he apologized to Bunky.

#15

Hey Im Jeff

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Posted Jun 15, 2006 @ 9:02 PM

I have an off-color sense of humor, as well, but I just think don't see the appeal that many see in Will. I didn't find him funny, attractive or intelligent. I just saw him as an incredibly lucky and mediocre player. I won't even comment on his choice of allies.

I know I'm in the minority, but I just think he's horribly overrated and he won't last three weeks on All Stars.

#16

marlaas

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Posted Jun 15, 2006 @ 9:17 PM

I won't even comment on his choice of allies.


Hee! I actually wish you would, if only so I could see if just reading and/or hearing the words "Mike Boogie" can still make me snicker and gag at the same time.

I actually remember thinking that Will was extremely clever, but in retrospect that may be due to the fact that he was surrounded by some of the very stupidest people ever to get on camera. It'll be interesting to see if he comes across as bright and cunning when competing against players who are presumably at least a little more competent---or at least maybe a little less moronic---than the crew he was up against in S2.

#17

The Color Pink

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Posted Jun 15, 2006 @ 9:42 PM

I agree, I think at the time he appeared more clever than he was. In reality, he didn't really make any big moves or orchestrated anything remotely clever. Clever is Janelle talking with April privately in the HOH room so Ivette thinks they have a deal, causing friction between them. Clever is coming up with the six-finger plan as Nikomis did. Clever is making Marcellas feel so secure that he opts not to use the veto, and then evicting him. All Will did is lie to people. He lied well, and it was entertaining, but it really wasn't a dominated strategy.

I maintain that if there had been a veto in season 2, Will never would have made it to the end of the game.

but in retrospect that may be due to the fact that he was surrounded by some of the very stupidest people ever to get on camera.

Seriously. Hardy and Nicole were fools to keep him. There was no reason for it.

I'm thinking we will see Will trying to be a smart-ass in the DR but a funny, charismatic guy in the house again. I don't think these people are that stupid. I think if Kaysar and Janelle make it, Will better watch out. If Danielle does, oh man, he's toast.

#18

blackwing

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Posted Jun 15, 2006 @ 9:48 PM

If he makes it onto All Stars, I predict he will be the first one evicted. I don't think anybody is going to trust him. Plus I think these people that have played the game are probably tired of constant comparisons to Will and how Will was the best player ever.

It'd be kind of like one time there was a Weakest Link episode with former Survivors. They voted Richard out first out of spite, even though he wasn't the worst player.

#19

PhilMarlowe2

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Posted Jun 15, 2006 @ 9:58 PM

But there are so many more safeguards in place on BB - first, there has to be an HOH that nominates Will (which, if any member of his alliance wins, will not happen); then, there is the veto ceremony. Plus, there is a full week to turn the tide - unlike an afternoon before TC on Survivor. I haven't counted Will out yet. It depends who's in the house, how alliances form and who wins those first few HoH's.

#20

Jenn211

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Posted Jun 15, 2006 @ 10:16 PM

Are there any incentives of being clever but still couldn't win game? They sure aren't that clever, are they?

One can portray himself as the master strategist and still be played by two least threatening people in the house. Yes, I am talking about Kaysar. Jennifer wasn't the only played him. April manipulate and lied to him and made him to go after James first rather than the nerd herd.

What if this person ... or what if that person in the house and Will wouldn't have a chance is irreverent. It is easy to second guess. But the fact remains that he won the BB2 game, masterfully.

#21

The Color Pink

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Posted Jun 15, 2006 @ 10:38 PM

Drew won the game. And he literally slept through much of BB5. (And Cowboy, the worst player in BB history made #2, and only lost by one vote.) Winning doesn't automatically mean that someone is a smart or "clever" player. I think, looking at the winners, losers, and the way they all played, it's clear that winning this game isn't mostly due to luck and circumstanc. It is very plausible to say that circumstance got Will to the end and circumstance got someone like Janelle only third place.

And I don't understand what Kaysar has to do with any of this? Not in a rude way, I just don't understand. I haven't seen anyone claim Kaysar was a masterful player (having been evicted twice by week 5, he was sloppy with his second chance) and I haven't seen anyone compare Will to Kaysar. Whether Kaysar is a good player or not doesn't change the fact that Will's game wasn't much of a game at all and luck played a heavy role.

Before it got down to the last five, Will pretty much just existed. The people around him messed themselves up -- he played no hand in their evictions. Someone like Danielle, I think could make it to the final 3 of BB nine times out of time. Will, maybe like three two of ten.

Why? He wasn't actively responsible for much of what went on in the house. He wasn't actively getting people evicted. He wasn't actively creating rifts in alliances. He was actively making people turn on one another.

I liked Will. Will was sure entertaining and Will sure was a good liar. But he was hardly "masterful" at the game of Big Brother.

Edited by The Color Pink, Jun 15, 2006 @ 11:31 PM.


#22

Jenn211

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Posted Jun 15, 2006 @ 10:48 PM

I think if Kaysar and Janelle make it, Will better watch out.

And I don't understand what Kaysar has to do with any of this?

Probably not much.

#23

The Color Pink

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Posted Jun 15, 2006 @ 11:09 PM

I didn't compare Kaysar to Will. I said Kaysar is going to target Will because they don't like each other.

Edited by The Color Pink, Jun 15, 2006 @ 11:23 PM.


#24

katesus7

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Posted Jun 16, 2006 @ 12:13 AM

In reality, he didn't really make any big moves or orchestrated anything remotely clever. Clever is Janelle talking with April privately in the HOH room so Ivette thinks they have a deal, causing friction between them. Clever is coming up with the six-finger plan as Nikomis did. Clever is making Marcellas feel so secure that he opts not to use the veto, and then evicting him. All Will did is lie to people. He lied well, and it was entertaining, but it really wasn't a dominated strategy.



I both agree and disagree with this (and, for the record, I HATE Will. I seem to be impervious to his particular charm). Yes, he didn't do any of these kick-ass strategies. But, good Lord, this man, who I spent the entire summer shouting at my TV at, got the majority of these people, who he had talked constant smack about in the DR, to vote for him. Yes, it was over Nicole, but still. After that speech? And he still won? I have to give him some credit there, because I was literally tearing my hair out in frustration that anyone who had ever come into contact with him would ever want him to win anything. Ever.

And, I love Danielle. LOVE. But, forgive me, because I can't remember that far back, but didn't the jury get to watch the episodes, and therefore Will's DR's his season as well? So didn't Monica get to watch Will say she was the stupidest person he'd ever met? And didn't the others see how he made fun of them, and was a sanctimonious, superior prick about everything? Yet they still voted for him. That takes some serious mind-control, and for that, I have to rate him above Danielle.

I still hate him, though, and don't think he uses the "gay" insults just as a joke to get under people's skin. I think he just thinks gay insults are funny.

What I would like to see? Will vs. Maggie. Snake-charmer vs. Cult-leader. He would see right through her, she would be impervious to his charm. I'd like to know who would come out ahead in that battle. Actually, I'd like both of them to be kicked out on their asses, but that could just be my bias showing through again.

#25

vanden

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Posted Jun 16, 2006 @ 4:35 AM

Before it got down to the last five, Will pretty much just existed. The people around him messed themselves up -- he played no hand in their evictions.

But what was key is that he managed to work it so that they were being evicted, not him. He managed to work it so that whenever there was a choice of Will or someone else to nominate or evict, it was the someone else who left. When Kent walked out that door instead of Will, I think his vote against Nicole was sealed and I'm willing to bet that Shari's was as well.

I love Will but don't think he was near as smart or charming as he thought he was. But in comparison to pretty much every one else in the house that summer (maybe except for Shari), he was a friggin' genius. Who knows if he'll last beyond the first vote, but if I'm CBS, I manipulate everything possible to make sure he does because Will and his Diary Room confessionals are fun television. Live feed Will is one character and there've been better ones, but when it's just him and the camera (oh, and maybe that Nicole doll), he's a classic.

#26

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Posted Jun 16, 2006 @ 7:18 AM

I haven't seen anyone claim Kaysar was a masterful player (having been evicted twice by week 5, he was sloppy with his second chance) and I haven't seen anyone compare Will to Kaysar.

Kaysar's done both.

For me, the bottom line is that anyone who was a target from week 2 on, who managed to get someone who hated him to take him to the final 2, and who won the jury vote *decisively*, deserves their rep as the greatest player of this game. And I disagree that his strategy wouldn't work any other time. Because really, Will's strategy is charm and reading people. And he's good at it. Which is why if he makes it past the first vote, I think he's got a good chance of going some distance.

#27

The Color Pink

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Posted Jun 16, 2006 @ 7:52 AM

And, I love Danielle. LOVE. But, forgive me, because I can't remember that far back, but didn't the jury get to watch the episodes, and therefore Will's DR's his season as well? So didn't Monica get to watch Will say she was the stupidest person he'd ever met? And didn't the others see how he made fun of them, and was a sanctimonious, superior prick about everything? Yet they still voted for him. That takes some serious mind-control, and for that, I have to rate him above Danielle.

I already touched on that. Danielle's DRs bit her in the ass because she wasn't the same way in the house at all. People thought she was their friend and then they watch her in the DR and she looks like a completely different person. It had to be a serious slap in the face to the people who had trusted her and befriended her in the house.

Will, on the other hand, was the same asshole in the house as he was in the DR. Everyone knew that's how Will was going to act so it wasn't a shock when he did. I don't think it had anything to do with mind control whatsoever. The houseguests just didn't like Nicole. In Krista's exit interview, she basically talked about how the house hated Nicole. Nicole picked Will, hoping the house would be mad enough at his behavior to vote for her, but her fate had been sealed weeks ago -- whoever was against Nicole would win.

Kaysar's done both.

Kaysar isn't on TWoP, which was my point, but yes, the man is pretty self-deluded. Almost as self-deluded as Will. ;)

Edited by The Color Pink, Jun 16, 2006 @ 8:39 AM.


#28

Nich337

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Posted Jun 16, 2006 @ 9:01 AM

Winning doesn't automatically mean that someone is a smart or "clever" player. I think, looking at the winners, losers, and the way they all played, it's clear that winning this game isn't mostly due to luck and circumstanc. It is very plausible to say that circumstance got Will to the end and circumstance got someone like Janelle only third place.

and

Before it got down to the last five, Will pretty much just existed. The people around him messed themselves up -- he played no hand in their evictions.

I agree completely, but I think that's part of what made Will a good player. He wasn't totally in control the way Danielle was, but he knew it was a good idea to keep his mouth shut sometimes and let everybody else shoot themselves in the feet. He knew he could be a total asshole because everybody would try to drag him to the final two. And he knew how to work the jury. I think that he and Danielle both had flaws in their gameplay, but if you took the better parts of each of their strategies, you'd be unstoppable.

Edited by Nich337, Jun 16, 2006 @ 9:00 AM.


#29

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Posted Jun 16, 2006 @ 10:57 PM

I love this guy. Seriously, anybody who ridicules Kaysar up to his face is aces in my book.

If he is voted out early in All Stars, I will be making sure he gets voted back in via America's Choice.

#30

thuganomics85

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Posted Jun 17, 2006 @ 2:34 AM

I'm hoping he's in this season. I haven't seen any of BB shows (besides some of S6), but I've heard so much about him. And he was also pretty cool in Battle of the Network Reality Stars that aired on Bravo. I'm not sure if he's the greatest player ever, but I will say that despite my limitied knowlege of BB, I also knew who Will Kirby a.k.a. Evil Dr. Will was. So, he at the very least, it seems that he's position himself as one of BB's biggest stars.

But I am worried that he might get voted out very early (see the previous winner on Survivor during their All-Stars.) And if Kaysar also comes back, that means he might already have someone after him. He better work his magic if that happens.

Edited by thuganomics85, Jun 17, 2006 @ 2:36 AM.