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#3991

randomchance

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Posted Apr 26, 2012 @ 5:16 PM

It tends to be a red flag saying that they don't think the work they're doing is good enough for viewers to come back after a few months

I agree, and I also think that whatever flimsy value cliffhangers do have, they only have for shows that are back in a few months. When a whole year goes by between seasons people have to be more invested in a show than just, "gee I wonder how they get out of that one," because they've had plenty of time to conclude "oh who cares." In my opinion, of course.

Speaking of Farscape, I guess being a fan of that and similar shows, I can't say I am finding this season particularly dark.

True for me too. So far Eureka has only killed off my least favorite character (and I'd wonder if that was fan service if the writers weren't so clearly enamored of her) and the four year jump turned out to be fake - on a truly dark show, it would have been real.
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#3992

seashore56

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Posted Apr 26, 2012 @ 7:03 PM

The writers just plain shouldn't be doing end-of-season cliffhangers. It tends to be a red flag saying that they don't think the work they're doing is good enough for viewers to come back after a few months, and discourages less-than-rabid fans from buying a favorite season or two.


Exactly! They're a sign of lazy writing, IMO. Plot-driven shockudrama for what the writers must see as an attention-span challenged audience. When did pretty much every show have to end on a cliffhanger? What happened to giving closure to one year's story arcs while setting up new scenarios for the next? I think that unless a show has an ironclad renewal in writing, they should end each season as if it will be their last. And, even then it seems like networks change their minds all the time so cliffhangers still aren't a good idea.

I agree, and I also think that whatever flimsy value cliffhangers do have, they only have for shows that are back in a few months. When a whole year goes by between seasons people have to be more invested in a show than just, "gee I wonder how they get out of that one," because they've had plenty of time to conclude "oh who cares." In my opinion, of course.


Yep, the only cliffhangers that don't irritate the life out of me are the ones that I've watched when mainlining several seasons of a show on dvd.

As for who was to blame for Eureka's cancellation, I found this interesting article from last year:

http://brusimm.com/i...a-cancellation/

Quote: "Before you tie Syfy to the stake and light the pyre, you should keep something in mind: Syfy, whose parent network is NBC, is now owned by Comcast. Yes, we now have to add the newest ingredient to the programming decision makers, Comcast.

I was reminded of this scenario when it was driven home when Eureka‘s co-exec producer Amy Berg (Eureka, Leverage, The 4400) used Twitter to make the following public note:

“Everyone is asking why. It’s simple, really.”

“We are the network’s golden child in every way, except profit margins. Fact is, #Eureka is an expensive show to make.”

“And we could not maintain the quality of our show with the cuts it would take to make us profitable for Syfy’s new parent company.”

“Our creative execs at Syfy fought hard to keep us. Trust me, they LOVE us. We just couldn’t make the numbers work.”"

Not that this explains the Farscape situation at all, though.

Edited by seashore56, Apr 26, 2012 @ 7:46 PM.

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#3993

ganesh

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Posted Apr 27, 2012 @ 1:16 AM

I just don't believe that. Everytime the excuse id kicked over to somewhere else. Please. There are similar excuses for Farscape and IMan. The, only reason Sanctuary isn't canceled is because they rely on private investment.

The network is about making super cheap shows and milking as much as they can from it. It will be ther same excuse when they can W13. There's a discussion about that in the network thread.

As far as cliffhangers go, if you are given 2 seasons contractually, and are under the assumption you can end the show on your own terms, then I don't find a cliffhanger to be that big of a deal. I doubt TPTB intended to end the series on a cliffhanger. Hell, every episode of GOT literally ends on a cliffhanger. They've beem pulling the same crap for a decade at ghis network. There's just not a serious commitment maintaining good programming. Any good show has been dumb luck, and then they screw it up.
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#3994

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Posted Apr 27, 2012 @ 10:57 AM

The network is about making super cheap shows and milking as much as they can from it. It will be ther same excuse when they can W13. There's a discussion about that in the network thread.

The death of Eureka looks like a case of new management sweeping away old shows by playing around with their scheduling until they have a financial excuse to cancel them. This lets them install a new slate of shows that are "theirs", letting them take credit for success. By going super cheap, they're trying to avoid getting embarrassed by any flops they get before they have some successful shows to point to.

When a whole year goes by between seasons people have to be more invested in a show than just, "gee I wonder how they get out of that one," because they've had plenty of time to conclude "oh who cares."

As cliffhangers go, I don't think the last was very compelling; I think I was at "oh who cares" within a week. It's not like the writers were going to kill off that many main characters, so what's the worst we'd have gotten, a homage to Lost In Space?
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#3995

ganesh

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Posted Apr 27, 2012 @ 12:16 PM

I was interested enough in the cliffhanger to get excited when it was time for S5 to start again. I wanted to know where the ship went and who was behind it. It didn't matter to me the length between the season. I barely got my license over the last season of Mad Men and now I'm divorced with two kids! Ha, no, but it was a long time. It just doesn't bother me. I didn't think the season ender was all zomg!!! But it was good enough.

No one does a cliffhanger like Farscape though. Holy damn. Blow up a moon, rob a bank, trout or bass?, *literally reduce your main characters to smithereens* and leave the audience with one of the other main characters wailing in anguish for over two years. While his girlfriend went blind.

The death of Eureka looks like a case of new management sweeping away old shows by playing around with their scheduling until they have a financial excuse to cancel them. This lets them install a new slate of shows that are "theirs", letting them take credit for success. By going super cheap, they're trying to avoid getting embarrassed by any flops they get before they have some successful shows to point to.

It's exactly that. That's why I think W13 may be done soon too, and I highly doubt their spin off will get off the ground. The problem is no one stays at the network to develop anything long term, so why bother? Even if an actual scripted show is reasonably good, the same thing is going to happen. I've given them 10 years, and I think it's enough for me.

Edited by ganesh, Apr 27, 2012 @ 12:20 PM.

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#3996

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Posted Apr 27, 2012 @ 4:14 PM

I have always really disliked Holly - she's nothing but annoying to me, but I didn't like to see her killed in cold blood. That is way darker than I care for this show to get. It was just chilling to see that and it puts me off quite a bit.

I was looking forward to this show returning for its final season, but hadn't been giving it much thought and had forgotten about the timing of the cancellation. Now I'm very leery of investing time in watching this season which apparently was headed for a huge cliffhanger and instead gets a tacked-on final episode to wrap up. I really don't see how this can work very well - with a planned arc headed one way, suddenly tied up in ribbons and bandaids.
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#3997

ganesh

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Posted Apr 27, 2012 @ 5:46 PM

The way I see it is TPTB didn't know they were getting axed, so it's not their fault they ended on the cliffhanger. So I'll still watch the show. I'm sure the last episode will feel very tacked-on, but it's better than nothing. On the one hand, getting 5 seasons for any show is a major accomplishment and that's great. On the other, if you're already in year 5, maybe best to tell a more self-contained story. Should TPTB have known better? I guess; I don't know. It just wasn't fair to renew it for the two seasons. Even HBO doesn't do that.
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#3998

randomchance

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Posted Apr 27, 2012 @ 8:16 PM

Is 13 episodes technically a season, though? They may call it a season, but it's like putting a size 6 tag on a size 12 dress and telling people you dropped three dress sizes. By U.S. standards it's really only season three at best. Whenever TPTB talked about aging-show issues I thought about that.

I'll take a tacked-on resolution over a cliffhanger any time, so I'm glad the writers fought for that. And I'll stick with the show to the end, because even "bad" Eureka is still better than "good" reality TV.
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#3999

ganesh

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Posted Apr 27, 2012 @ 11:50 PM

A season is however long you say it is. The typical 22 episode "season" is a relic from the days when broadcast tv was the only ticket in town. All the good cable shows have pretty short seasons. Or, they'll air 8 in a row and then later in the year another 8 in a row. It's not that bad of an idea.

No one likes or watches re runs because if you like the show that much, you're recording it and watching it again anyway. This happened with Lost. They did the usual re runs and people just bitched and didn't bother watching, so they ran this huge ad campaign where it was like "16 new episodes in a row!"

And if you have a short episode order, then you can have more shows. The old 22 episode season really only applies to procedural shows where it doesn't really matter about characterization or continuous storytelling.

Not for nothing, I like GOT and MM and BB, but they're dense, if they were longer seasons, it would be hard to keep up. Or even something more soapy like TB has to be short too. Hell, it's worked for UK shows for a really long time. The new Doctor Who is 13 and that's considered long over there.

Edited by ganesh, Apr 27, 2012 @ 11:51 PM.

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#4000

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Posted Apr 28, 2012 @ 1:21 AM

I apologize in advance if I missed it, but when is a senator allowed to tell military personnel to arrest anyone? I don't think she'd be allowed to do so. Especially when the people to be arrested are civilians, by and large, or working for a private contractor (GD.)

That took me out of the episode a bit, so the reveal about the Senator didn't surprise me, it just made me grumpy. I've watched Ming-Na since her soap days and I'm glad she's still on my tv, but I seem to only catch her when she's being bad.

If anyone with better recall on Sen. Wen's authority can reply, that'd be cool. I have a feeling that arrest powers are not part of a senator's arsenal, though.
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#4001

Tarasme

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Posted Apr 28, 2012 @ 1:39 AM

With regard to cliffhangers; I'm trying to remember, hasn't Paglia always ended his seasons with CHs? Season 1 was fake future and the explosion in L5. Wait... I guess it wasn't really a CH, we just didn't know how Carter would get back to the life he had w/ Allie. And S2 was... actually resolved w/ Kevin doing the whatsits to get rid of the artifact and Beverly going bye bye. S3.... Good Lord S3 was Lexi and Jamie Ray Newman and Stark death and babies. Okay so I'm wrong about the CHs at end of season. :)

For awhile I had been under the incorrect assumption that Paglia, Berg et al, had *chosen* to end this year. I was really hoping for a well nuanced build to happily ever after. Now I guess not so much.

I will sorely miss Eureka when it is gone. It's one of the few shows my family watches together.
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#4002

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Posted Apr 28, 2012 @ 2:00 AM

Its funny. Everyone describes Eureka as light and fluffy, but this was the show whose first season ended with Henry and the others being forced to let Kim die in order to keep the world from unraveling.
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#4003

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Posted Apr 28, 2012 @ 8:14 AM

I've been operating under the assumption that Holly is actually dead but won't be gone immediately. I imagine that Beverly will have to create a VR Holly to keep the others from realizing that she is missing.

It makes sense that they would generate a VR Holly. They will probably need it to keep Fargo productive. Poor Fargo.

Poor Holly. Too smart for her own good.
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#4004

seashore56

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Posted Apr 28, 2012 @ 9:46 AM

Its funny. Everyone describes Eureka as light and fluffy, but this was the show whose first season ended with Henry and the others being forced to let Kim die in order to keep the world from unraveling.


That's true. And, you're right that Eureka has always had dark, sad, tragic things happening in the midst of the quirky humor that also is a hallmark of the show.

But, for me, there's a big difference between Jack stopping Henry from saving Kim, thereby letting her die to set the timeline right, and the way Holly was killed in cold blood to further Sen. Wen's agenda.

If Holly had accidentally died someway, I'd chalk it up to another day in Eureka type of thing. Cold blooded murder, however, is a huge shift in tone for the show and one that was not necessary, IMO.
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#4005

Tarasme

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Posted Apr 28, 2012 @ 11:00 AM

CheerAngel and Seashore- Eureka began as Much more menacing with the pilot having the pseudo death of Rob LaBelle, Beverly killing his wife, the sheriff losing a few limbs, Zoe being a felon, etc etc. it's mellowed a teensy tiny bit but still, all those characters being stuck in alt time and poor Jo being screwed over again and again, well, Eureka has never been Disney. :)
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#4006

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Posted Apr 28, 2012 @ 12:07 PM

I have a feeling that arrest powers are not part of a senator's arsenal, though.

They are not, but even in the real world would the cop on the spot refuse to make an arrest or hook someone up and let the DA sort it out later. All in all its not as bad as the corporate executives who order their security guards to murder federal agents as happened on 24 one season.
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#4007

seashore56

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Posted Apr 28, 2012 @ 1:07 PM

CheerAngel and Seashore- Eureka began as Much more menacing with the pilot having the pseudo death of Rob LaBelle, Beverly killing his wife, the sheriff losing a few limbs, Zoe being a felon, etc etc. it's mellowed a teensy tiny bit but still, all those characters being stuck in alt time and poor Jo being screwed over again and again, well, Eureka has never been Disney. :)


Yeah, I see what you're saying. Maybe its a case of nostalgia making things seem better than they really were?

Speaking of the pilot, I can't copy the tweets to show here, but Jaime Paglia's Twitter http://twitter.com/#!/jaimepaglia does say the finale will address these things:
Spoiler


He also recommends that we rewatch
Spoiler
before watching the finale.
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#4008

ganesh

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Posted Apr 28, 2012 @ 2:49 PM

Poor Holly. Too smart for her own good.

If anything it's totally in character. She never knew when to shut up.

It would be interesting to have her be an AI/avatar like S.A.R.A.H or something.
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#4009

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Posted Apr 28, 2012 @ 4:51 PM

It would be interesting to have her be an AI/avatar like S.A.R.A.H or something.

That would be well within Fargo's abilities of resurrection, and would require less commitment, time-wise, from Felicia Day than my idea of only her avatar having been killed.
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#4010

ganesh

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Posted Apr 28, 2012 @ 5:06 PM

It occurred to me because E1 already had S.A.R.A.H. running GD, and then I thought maybe Fargo could somehow install her consciousness from the VR Eureka into a GD "cpu" or something. Not that she would control the facility, but she'd be able to access essential systems. A human-type cpu would be adaptable enough to not just go into a general self-destruct mode or something.

It's kind of a cheat, but a fair one, because her death would still have an impact. Not that this is a realistic show, but Fargo would be devastated to the point of not being able to function if she was dead for real.
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#4011

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Posted Apr 30, 2012 @ 11:58 AM

The way I see it is TPTB didn't know they were getting axed, so it's not their fault they ended on the cliffhanger.

It is if there was no compelling reason to have a cliffhanger, other than maybe they weren't sure they were really getting another season and were trying to force the network to give them one (or at least "a few more episodes to wrap up the series").
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#4012

ganesh

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Posted Apr 30, 2012 @ 3:53 PM

I thought there was a 5th season guaranteed? So that was why a cliffhanger was written. I agree that doing a CH to force the show to get renewed is bush league. Maybe the use of the CH is something of a cliche. I don't mind it. I think the important point is that TPTB were under the assumption that there would be another season and got the cancellation news while filming the last episode. Even if it wasn't a CH, it would still lack the closure befitting of a series finale.
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#4013

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Posted Apr 30, 2012 @ 9:06 PM

I'm so glad they're out of the virtual world! I was not looking forward to a season of dual worlds ala Lost.

Poor Fargo, though. Jo's offering to hold him up was super sweet. And Senator Wen ending up in a virtual prison was a just punishment. At least Beverly has a sense of (very dark) humor.

I wonder how long the awkwardness between Henry and Grace, Alison and Jo, Jo and Carter, and Andy and everyone else is going to last. Not too long, I hope.
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#4014

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Posted Apr 30, 2012 @ 9:09 PM

And Senator Wen ending up in a virtual prison was a just punishment. At least Beverly has a sense of (very dark) humor.

And here I had thought I'd never root for Beverly. Never say never and all that.

My favorite moment was Jo offering to hold up Fargo, and the look on his face when he realized what was wrong. I swear, this show kills me with the subtle moments sometimes.
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#4015

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Posted Apr 30, 2012 @ 9:14 PM

Loved Carter. In particular when he first goes into VR and has to explain the plan to Zane and when are back in Eureka and Jo touches his should and he jumps about three feet in the air from a sitting position.
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#4016

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Posted Apr 30, 2012 @ 9:18 PM

I just wanted to hug Fargo. He was so lost without Holly.

Carter being awkward will never get old.

Funniest line of the night? Zane: I'm feeling a bit limp right now. Jo: I'm just going to let that one go. Yes, I am 12. Plus, I needed the humor to offset the Fargo heartbreak.

Henry can be very scary. He was scary in VR. But even in Real Life he was not too shabby in shutting down Beverly's feeble attempts to explain herself.
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#4017

seashore56

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Posted Apr 30, 2012 @ 9:22 PM

I'm still glad this little mini-arc of dual realities is over, but I will say this episode was the best of them for me. I was dreading the Jo/Carter scene where she strips for him, but having real Carter instead of AR Carter in the scene saved it for me. He was as freaked out over it as those of us who see them as having a sibling vibe were.

Does anyone else wonder if Sen. Wen fading out at the end meant Beverly was killing her just like Wen killed Holly?

And, as a Jo/Zane fan, I was glad to see that they've picked up their friendship pretty much where it left off. I don't necessarily need them together romantically just yet. They need to build a solid friendship as a foundation first, IMO. Jo/Zane having an adult conversation at Cafe Diem and Zane not snarking at Jo about virtual Jo/Carter was nice, too.

Edited by seashore56, Apr 30, 2012 @ 10:00 PM.

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#4018

msani19

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Posted Apr 30, 2012 @ 9:23 PM

Relief that the alt universe is done! Celebrate. Carter had some of the funniest lines when he was within the virtual world. His delivery is everything!
Poor Fargo. Way to make me care about Holly who I was always meh about. He deserves to be happy, I'd hate for the show to end and Fargo not live happily ever after. That little goofball has grown, but has maintained his charming doofus core. His reaction to naked virtual Jo was, again, hilarious.
I did sniffle a tad when Carter sat down on the bench with him. Aww....my cold dead heart was touched.

It does seem interesting the reaction the crew is having to their counterparts back in the real world. Carter leaping out of his skin and chair when Jo touched him was...yes, I repeat myself...hilarious.

The senator deserved her fate. Loved how it went from her arrogant "I'm untouchable" to the realization she was completely trapped in a virtual world. Oh well, too bad, so sad. However, can we never see Beverly again. I don't care if she gets away, never pays for her crimes, just get her off the show & no more screen time in the precious few episodes we have left. Her character leaves me cold. Boooooring.

Seems like next episode is classic Eureka, some crazy experiment goes horribly wrong & Carter saves the day.
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#4019

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Posted Apr 30, 2012 @ 9:51 PM

Whew, this episode had my stomach in knots. I mean, I knew our heroes would pull through in the end, but I thought TPTB did a nice job keeping the suspense up until Jack was pulled out of the virtual reality. I am glad things will be getting back to normal (for the most part) next week. I did find this arc interesting, and didn't mind the darker tone-- it just sucks because we know these are the final episodes.

I really enjoyed the scene (in our reality) between Carter and Fargo. Poor Fargo.

Loved that Senator Wen ended up in her own virtual reality. Payback is a bitch. I'm a little bit peeved that Beverly is still on the loose-- I wonder if this will come into play during the finale. I heard that
Spoiler


My love for Colin Ferguson grows exponentially with each episode.
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#4020

benteen

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Posted Apr 30, 2012 @ 10:31 PM

Really good episode. Colin Fergunson was a riot tonight. Very glad Senator Wen got the punishment she deserved. Hopefully she'll remain stuck in there for the rest of her days.
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