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6-11: "Cold Stones" 2006.05.21 (recap)


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#601

Sharon59

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Posted May 24, 2006 @ 6:51 PM

Comme staje, I have amended my two posts regarding this topic (the Leotardos and their twist on Catholic doctrine) to clarify that

a.) I was referering to the characters and their beliefs as outlined by DC & Co., and

b.) Regarding the harpy Mrs. Leotardo, the sentence involving that now reads:

However, I'm amazed at the especially harpy Mrs. Leotardo, quoting HER VERSION OF the Catholic view on homosexuality, all the while apparently refusing to believe that Catholic doctrines, etc have ANY adverse views on murderous, greedy thugs.


All along I have believed that these characters have their own misguided views, which are not in alignment with the RC or any other Catholic church, and regret that anyone misconstrued otherwise from my posts on the subject.

Sharon

#602

thatguy01

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Posted May 24, 2006 @ 6:54 PM

the heaviness of the whole episode.


Yup, I'm gonna miss having Vito as a topic on the board.

#603

rockjupiter

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Posted May 24, 2006 @ 6:55 PM

I think 20 years in the Phil got some so hes trying to justify his own sins with his retard wife

#604

Sharon59

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Posted May 24, 2006 @ 6:58 PM

Angels with Dirty Faces



At first I thought you meant the movie Kevin watches in "Home Alone," but that is "Angels with Filthy Souls." (laughing) Thanks for the trip down memory lane. ;-)

ETA: Had a double quote for some reason...

I think 20 years in the Phil got some so hes trying to justify his own sins with his retard wife


Do you think he was worried Vito might run into someone who knew him when he was in the slam?

Edited by Sharon59, May 24, 2006 @ 6:56 PM.


#605

rockjupiter

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Posted May 24, 2006 @ 7:41 PM

Do you think he was worried Vito might run into someone who knew him when he was in the slam

Not sure but clearly his wifes bs about answering to a higher authority weighed on him

#606

winginit

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Posted May 24, 2006 @ 8:11 PM

I was the one who quoted the Graves' poem about cold stones up thread:
"Here now is chaos once again,
Primeval mud, cold stones and rain.
Here flesh decays and blood drips red,
And the Cow’s dead, the old Cow’s dead."
Copyright Robert Graves (1895–1985). Fairies and Fusiliers. 1918.


I was quite taken by this poem, so I did a little research on it. I didn't find much, except an article that said that Graves wrote this volume of poetry following his experiences in World War I. It seems to me that the last few lines, quoted above, are what a soldier might say in despair while looking over a bloody battlefield (or many bloody battlefields). It is certainly nihilistic in its vision and seems a little too deep for The Sopranos, which despite all the literary and historical allusions still revolves around a bunch of thugs killing each other. I don't think that anyone would conclude that the universe is without meaning or direction because Ralphie, Richie, Pussy, Vito or even Adriana have been violently murdered. I would love to know if Chase really was thinking of this poem when he used the title "Cold Stones."


I've been working on my Seven Souls theory, revisiting all the articles about and interviews with David Chase. Here's an excerpt from a 2/29/04 NY Times interview conducted by Virginia Heffernan. NYTimes

HEFFERNAN: What are the formal distinctions between "The Sopranos" and network shows?
CHASE: Network television is all talk. I think there should be visuals on a show, some sense of mystery to it, connections that don't add up. I think there should be dreams and music and dead air and stuff that goes nowhere. There should be, God forgive me, a little bit of poetry.



#607

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Posted May 24, 2006 @ 8:30 PM

My thought on the photographer at the end was that it was meant just to underscore how differently things could have gone. In the picture he's proud and happy with himself.


Pretty close to what I was going to say. Pathos. Sympathy for (one of) the devil(s). He was beaming with happiness, and he was genuinely proud of his accomplishment, and that was the side of him that the "Thin Club" photographer saw and captured for posterity. But even when that picture was taken, there was this dark hidden side to him (not homosexuality, but the choice he made to exploit, hurt and kill people, and to spend his life surrounded by other killers); and that, not his former unhealthy weight, was his destruction.

ETA: "Photos of happier times = pathos" is an oldie but goodie in visual media, of course. See also 6-1, with Eugene wistfully looking through the shots of his now-crumbling family having fun on the beach, immediately before he hangs himself. Huh...something else to tie together "Thin Guy" and "Wide Guy."

Edited by Sparafucile, May 24, 2006 @ 8:39 PM.


#608

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Posted May 24, 2006 @ 8:41 PM

Someone earlier said that Catholics don't do that "curing homosexuality" thing.

Most don't, but there are some who do:

http://www.couragerc.org
http://www.cathmed.o...osexuality.html

Check out EWTN sometime.

Again, this extreme is a minority view, but these are real Roman Catholics who really hold these beliefs.

#609

touchofgrey

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Posted May 24, 2006 @ 8:55 PM

After the stabbing of Dom, Sil says to Carlo: "Ditch his car, get some biangaleen." The rhythm sounded awfully familiar. I was wondering if anyone else thought the line was an homage to the famous, "Leave the gun, grab the canoli" from The Godfather.

ETA winginit's information

Edited by touchofgrey, May 24, 2006 @ 9:34 PM.


#610

thatguy01

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Posted May 24, 2006 @ 9:01 PM

FWIW, I attended Mass in a very small town with my sister a few years ago. After the homily (sermon), my sister asked me, "Do you think this guy actually went to priest school, or do you think he's just making it all up as he goes along?"

#611

tharthh

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Posted May 24, 2006 @ 9:10 PM

My thought on the photographer at the end was that it was meant just to underscore how differently things could have gone. In the picture he's proud and happy with himself.


And at the time of the photograph, he was half the pig he used to be. At the end, he was crouching toward pig-Bethlehem, eating ribs, johnny cakes, veal and vinegah peppahs; and finally slaughtered, like all the pigs before and after him at Satrialle's and the neon-French pig place.

#612

comme staje

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Posted May 24, 2006 @ 9:16 PM

sharon59

You are very gracious.

#613

winginit

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Posted May 24, 2006 @ 9:26 PM

I couldn't make out the last word Sil said to Carlo after the stabbing of Dom: "Ditch his car, get some _____________." (Could someone fill in the blank for me?) Anyway, hearing him say it, the rhythm sounded awfully familiar.


“Biangaleen” is the phonetic spelling. Heard it all the time from my mother, aunts and grandmothers. Don’t know the true spelling. But it’s Italian for bleach.

#614

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Posted May 25, 2006 @ 5:02 AM

But it’s Italian for bleach.


Yes, as was 'crystalline' (sp?). Nice echo of an Italian childhood from the 1950s, when the bleach man brought it to the house in gallon jars. What my mother did with a section of the basement full of crystalline is beyond me.

Finally saw the show. I'm very underwhelmed. How I could have invested soooo many episodes in Vito and not have cared when he was whacked....either a testament to me becoming tired of this show or an indication of how the show has slipped.

It's not JG, his "don't test me" was chilling indeed and a vision of seasons past.

However, the rest of the episode, for the most part, left me cold.

In addition to the statues Carm admired (what, no Rodin???), were cold stones the cold cojones of Vito?

#615

KolijBajan

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Posted May 25, 2006 @ 8:11 AM

It's not JG, his "don't test me" was chilling indeed

"Don't put me to the test" It was a plea and a threat and a glimpse into the love that he has and the rage that he is capable of, all at once. Gandolfini...mmwah.

#616

Bryan D

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Posted May 25, 2006 @ 8:27 AM

In the garage scene with AJ...

When Tony had his hand clamped on the back of AJ's neck and leaned in and said "Your my son, and I love you", I was totally expecting the "Fredo kiss of death".

Nice shout out to TWO in that scene!


Also..how much is the History Channel paying for those placements? Did anyone else notice that when Tony was watching the documentary on the French Occupation in the kitchen that the bug (that gold H on the reddish background in the corner of the screen) was artificially large? It was taking up a huge chunk of real estate in the corner of the screen!

#617

winginit

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Posted May 25, 2006 @ 8:50 AM

Been thinking about the rat turds Silvio discovered just before Fat Dom comes into Satriales. All season, we've seen plenty of fish, birds and, as of this episode, pigs, but we really hadn't considered any rats since the first episode when Ray and Eugene died. So who's the rat? I've been thinking Patsy or Carlo. Who was it who borrowed the money from Vito? I see in the imdb cast list, "Butcher at Satriales." Who is he? Does he ever speak?

#618

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Posted May 25, 2006 @ 9:42 AM

Has anyone noted yet there there really is a statue of Lou Costello in New Jersey? What is the significance of having the scene by his statue? He is from New Jersey, and is actually of Italian heritage (Costello is an Irish name and not his real one), but how does that play into the story except for the fact that he is now just a "cold stone?"



It's on Cianci Street in downtown Paterson, Lou's hometown, county seat of Passaic county and birthplace of the industrial revolution. Here's a link. (If you google there's lots of links.) The statue was put up in 1992 in what is like the only vestige of the old Italian neighborhood in Paterson. Every time I've been there (lots of times) there are bums hanging out in the little park the statue is in, even in the middle of the day.

Lou was very Italian, real name Lou Cristillo, and there are still Italian-American associations named after him in North Jersey.

So what's the significance? First, "who's on first", the old Abbott and Costello routine about confusion. That's why Phil and Tony meet there, because they don't know who's on first. Another reason that they can meet there in real life is because nobody will f with them in downtown Paterson. It ain't the mall.

Another reason: Paterson really was the birthplace of the industrial revolution in the US. In the 1790s, one Alexander Hamilton made a business deal to use the Great Falls (here's another link) as a power source to run fabric mills. The water from the Falls was channeled throughout the city to run machinery in the mills. Paterson is called Silk City because of this. Also the home of Colt Manufacturing (there's a Colt Street by City Hall), where they made all those Colt revolvers.

Nearly all of this is gone, and Paterson is now a post-industrial depressed city. The current mayor, Joey Torres, is a great guy, but the one before that, Marty Barnes, just got out of the Federal pen (or will soon?) after serving three years for taking beaucoups bribes from concrete contractors. The mayor before that was Bill Pascrell, Italian American, who is now the congressman from the area, another good guy. He went on the Colbert Report to defend North Jersey Italian Americans, it was hilarious. They used the Sopranos intro for the appearance.

Using Lou in Paterson is probably an anvil about the demise of the old ways.

One more thing - rumors have floated about that Lou was gay; I don't know, but it's not like there would be anything wrong with that.

Edited by YellowJacket, May 25, 2006 @ 9:44 AM.


#619

winginit

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Posted May 25, 2006 @ 10:23 AM

Has anyone noted yet there there really is a statue of Lou Costello in New Jersey? What is the significance of having the scene by his statue? He is from New Jersey, and is actually of Italian heritage (Costello is an Irish name and not his real one), but how does that play into the story except for the fact that he is now just a "cold stone?"


The one fact that always stayed with me whenever I see a reference to Lou Costello is what my mother told me years ago, that he was never the same after his youngest son, Lou, Jr., drowned in the family swimming pool. That’s what I remember every time I see Tony and Phil meet at the Paterson statue. I just looked up the date. It was during WWII, 1944. “Cold Stones” was so dark, cold and wet. The episode literally depressed me. Carm’s crying, “It all gets washed away.” She tells Ro, “I can’t imagine what it’s like to lose a son.” After she says goodbye to A.J., she goes downstairs to do wash. I don’t know if there’s foreshadowing here or not. There are none of the usual clues. No eggs, no oranges. I don’t think Tony has to lose his son, like in “One,” in order for there to be what some feel to be proper tragic closure to The Sopranos. Maybe this belongs on another thread, but I’m not yet ready to go there.

#620

Sharon59

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Posted May 25, 2006 @ 11:16 AM

Silly me, I just thought they met in public places because the feds may be able to watch from a distance, but they can't hear what they are saying as they can't set up surveillance equipment that quickly, and certainly, they can't bug public places in the off chance that some mobsters will show up and say something incriminating.

Sometimes I think filming is simply done to give a local shout out, to prove that you'll never be expected to believe that a palm-tree lined street as suburban NJ. ;-)

#621

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Posted May 25, 2006 @ 11:42 AM

Over in the media thread, someone posted a story from the NY Daily News quoting Joe Gannascoli as saying (I think on the WPLJ Scott and Todd morning show) that he was a little disappointed in his murder scene. Apparently the scene was much much more graphic than what we eventually saw. I can see why Gannascoli would have wanted us to see his character really go out in brutal fashion, a la Ralphie, but I think what we saw was even more affecting.


I did find it a bit anticlimactic. Not that every hit has to be gruesomely detailed. Ritchie Aprile's wasn't, and Adriana's certainly wasn't. But those both had shock value going for them. Vito's demise has seemed like such a foregone conclusion for so long that it didn't have any "Wow, I never saw THAT coming" to it. After so much build-up, it was just suddenly all over, almost entirely off-screen. I don't have bloodlust for gory scenes, this just seemed non-proportional.

On re-watch I was really struck by the garage scene and the range of emotions Tony went through. Genuine love for your ne'er-do-well son, and an almost desperate desire to see him do well; desolation over the prospect that it probably won't happen; anger at thinking "How could this by MY SON?"; frustration at the realization that he not only isn't listening to you but is (literally and/or figuratively) giving you the finger; the impulse to strike back, express your rage, do something to impress upon that this is serious, goddamit - like smash a car windshield (indeed, smash HIS car windshield), and then the cold-blooded "Don't put me to the test." (If it sounds like I've been there and done that, well...) Great job, JG.

#622

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Posted May 25, 2006 @ 11:48 AM

I definitely agree that I get irritated when Kelli comes onscreen. Maybe because the relationship with Chris and Ade was so beautifully defined and illustrated. Their spats, the drug abuse, and also the love. It felt like a real relationship and my heart broke when it ended. It was almost like losing a loved one. That's what it felt like to me, after watching the two crazy kids for five years. Kelli - we still have no idea how she met Chris, who she is, what she does ... Chris is too important of a character to have him married to a total cipher like Kelli. That's JMO.

#623

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Posted May 25, 2006 @ 12:23 PM

I did find it a bit anticlimactic. Not that every hit has to be gruesomely detailed.


No, but when I'm sitting there, watching the episode after having read all about it already and after coming to the moment and I find myself thinking but why isn't the blood spattering on Phil? then something is missing.

I was BESIDE myself when Ade got it. Therefore, it is either due to the acting of Gannascoli or the depth to which this show has sunk for me, but to me, this show has lost its soul. As has been noted, it may be due to Marchand's demise. I can't say for sure, but I do know for certain that this season has left me cold.

Cold, cold, cold.

#624

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Posted May 25, 2006 @ 12:40 PM

I thought the whole "pull Adrianna out of the car by her hair" and then having her scrabble away like a rat was very graphic. And realistic. I wouldn't say it had a lot of shock value because I knew she wasn't going to move to suburbia. But that's what makes the show great. I can't take a lot of graphic violence. Tracee almost made me crawl backwards over my couch and they didn't show any blood at all.

Edited by hothead, May 25, 2006 @ 12:41 PM.


#625

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Posted May 25, 2006 @ 1:09 PM

Been thinking about the rat turds Silvio discovered just before Fat Dom comes into Satriales. All season, we've seen plenty of fish, birds and, as of this episode, pigs, but we really hadn't considered any rats since the first episode when Ray and Eugene died. So who's the rat? I've been thinking Patsy or Carlo. Who was it who borrowed the money from Vito? I see in the imdb cast list, "Butcher at Satriales." Who is he? Does he ever speak?


When Tony got back into his car after discovering the Fat Dom situation, I got a very strong impression that the new driver was up to something. I'm not sure what accounts for it, but my immediate though was "Oh, my God -- Penne Arrabiata is a rat."

But I've been wrong before. A lot, in fact...

#626

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Posted May 25, 2006 @ 1:12 PM

I agree that we saw and heard enough to convince the viewer that Vito's demise was gruesome enough- like when his wife says he "didn't even look like a person" after the beating.

During that same scene, Phil actually sunk to a new low by taking contol of Vito's funeral and making it a "immediate family only" affair. Probably a wise choice, but hateful nonetheless.

#627

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Posted May 25, 2006 @ 1:24 PM

to convince the viewer that Vito's demise was gruesome enough


Oh, I know, that's why I was upset that I wasn't feeling anything, rather I was wondering where the blood spatter was. Too much CSI, perhaps? Acting not good enough?

I don't know, but the show is not getting to me like it used to.

#628

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Posted May 25, 2006 @ 1:36 PM

New to this thread -- you people are fantastic.
Wanted to say that it was stunning to me to see Carmela in a different setting. Just outdoors, away from her kitchen and her friends' garish houses, and without her Porsche, her fur coat, and with no one to show off to - -- I don't know, it just hit me hard. And it hit her hard, too. I was really thinking that Carmela was a truly awful person this season, but she's coming around.

When she watched Ro light the two candles, that was pivotal, I think. I've been to St. Eustache, and it is mind-blowing. Religous or not, you the feel the presence. I was really proud of her. She's opening her mind in a way that Tony is not capable of doing. It's going to set her on a course for an ugly confrontation with Tony, I think.

Forgive the aimless rambling, but I can't get Paris out of my mind.

#629

Cosmocrush

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Posted May 25, 2006 @ 1:44 PM

Who cares about the advertising people at the end that had a picture of Vito? Wouldn't it have been better if Johnny Cakes saw the story in the paper instead? ::sigh::

That seemed pretty random to me also, and I am still puzzling over it. Any ideas anyone? Only one I can come up with is that the photographer seeing the pix and recognizing Vito is a way to show us, the audience, that Johnnycakes will have a similar chance at "closure", without the melodrama of showing us a shot of Johnnycakes seeing the same article.


I agree with the first poster, I'd rather have witnessed JohnnyCakes see the story/photo. I don't get the significance of the "Thin Club" photo, unless it was that Vito was living a lie and that is hardly newsworthy at this point.

#630

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Posted May 25, 2006 @ 1:50 PM

I found the two newspaper scene as indicative of how the "inner" (kids) and "outer" (ad folks) see the world of the Family.
The sad resignation, helplessness of the readers in both scenes. The male reading to the female. The male spotting the truth that the article reveals. VitoJr's "NO" the photographer's "I know him". The wonder, the need to let it sink in.
Vito meant something to people other than his crew and Family. He touched other lives. JohnnyCakes' included but Johnny wouldn't qualify for a "I hardly knew ye" scene.