58 replies to this topic

[Azurekite]

All about "Ariel", that Core planet where Firefly went from cool to deeply cool. The Blue Hands reappear, Simon gets heroic, Jayne walks on the dark side, Mal gets really irritable, and there a lot of humourous tripping over medical lingo.

ETA: Oops. Speaking of tripping. The date should be 2002.11.15! My bad! Also, using the DVD order this ep would be 1-9.

Edited by Azurekite, Mar 11, 2006 @ 10:09 PM.

[CliffHogan]

Jayne looks better in red, but the orange hat isn't too bad either.

[cutecouple]

I liked this episode. Lot's of A-Team moments, and Jayne's moment of redemption.

[Vercingetorix]

Ariel is a great episode. I loved the way it built on Jayne's character moments from Jaynestown and Out of Gas, and I always love it when Simon pulls out his bad -ss persona.

- The hospital moment was very nicely done. Simon really does belong there, but he'd give it all up again in a moment for River.

- Mal sure takes "You're in my crew" seriously. Jayne is basically right that they should dump the Tams, but Mal's sticking with them to the end. I wonder at what moment they actually crossed from "annoying passengers" to "crew" in Mal's mind.

[mollyann]

I wonder at what moment they actually crossed from "annoying passengers" to "crew" in Mal's mind.

The night he and Simon made sweet, sweet love?

Ahem. Sorry. On topic, "Ariel" is indeed one of the best episodes of the series. When it first aired, I was terrified that Jayne really was going to bite it at the very end. Joss and Tim have earned such healthy mistrust.

[stoutheartedmin]

The night he and Simon made sweet, sweet love?

I can't remember...is that the one where Simon was tied to the bunk? ;-)

This is the episode that made me think that Firefly was not only fabulous sci fi fun, but that it actually had the makings of a truly great piece of drama. This ep is almost perfect, except for niggling little thought that there is no way they could have gotten the medicopter refitted that fast (and why would the hospital have junked a repairable vehicle, in the first place?). But I'm willing to suspend disbelief, because of its other amazing qualities.

[Raychill Canuck]

There was something that struck me as unrealistic too as I was watching this episode today, but for the life of me, I can't remember now.

What made me laugh was when Mal & Zoe were clearing out the medical supplies were the blue bins being used. Apparently those bins will not change in shape, colour, materials or usuage in the next 500 years. Something from the Earth That Was that remains in the galaxy that is.

[CliffHogan]

The main screw-up for me, in an otherwise fantastic episode, is when they break into the vault. Mal's ID doesn't work, Zoe's doesn't work, so they use unconscious ego-doctor's badge. . . and then Mal uses HIS OWN thumb, and it works. Wouldn't have been that hard to reach for the unconscious doctor's hand, but they probably never thought of it.

[Azurekite]

This ep is almost perfect, except for niggling little thought that there is no way they could have gotten the medicopter refitted that fast (and why would the hospital have junked a repairable vehicle, in the first place?).

Well, Kaylee is the master mechanic! I didn't find it that odd that only a slightly damaged ambulance would get junked. Ariel, like a lot of inner planets, appears to suffer from both slothfulness and apparantly wastefulness.

Jayne: "We applied the cortical electrodes, but we were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient!" And the look Mal gives Jayne after that still cracks me up!

[whateverfloats]

This is the episode where Simon discovers that Rivers amygdala has been "stripped".

Is my psych 100 knowledge failing me or would removing (or stripping or tampering with) the amygdala not make someone less fearful rather than more? Somewhere in the recesses of my mind I have a nagging feeling that people have had their amygdalas removed and been totally without fear or remorse. Am I totally wrong?

[sailorwind]

To be honest, I always thought the "amygdala" was just the McGuffin they made up in this episode to explain some of River's craziness, but now I think you may be right, whateverfloats. This is what I got from Wikipedia:

The central nuclei are involved in the genesis of many fear responses, including freezing (immobility), tachycardia (rapid heartbeat), increased respiration, and stress-hormone release. Damage to the amygdalae impairs both the acquisition and expression of Pavlovian fear conditioning, a form of classical conditioning of emotional responses.

Despite the importance of the amygdalae in modulating memory consolidation, however, learning can occur without it, though such learning appears to be impaired, as in fear conditioning impairments following amygdalar damage.

Two preliminary small-scale studies have linked lower neuron density in the amygdala with autism. It is unclear whether this is a cause or an effect of the condition

The part about the link to autism particularly interests me, as my brother is autistic. So perhaps by stripping her amygdala they made her high functioning autistic? I could see that, she definately has some traits in common with autistic children, I just never thought about it like that before cause I always assumed they just drove her crazy.

[mollyann]

Yeah, the writers' attempt at a neuropsychological explanation for River's behavior is a bit of BS. It would have made much more sense for Simon to discover that River's amygdala had been enhanced somehow rather than stripped. Even better, the writers could have vagued it up and had Simon explain merely that her limbic system, which has quite a lot to do with emotions in general and of which the amygdala is a part, had been screwed around with, and left it at that.

[PixiesSix]

I know absolutely nothing about the medical whatsis in this episode. But if stripping her amygdala means she'd be without fear or remorse, then that would totally make sense if the Alliance were trying to turn her into an assassin. What better kind of killing machine than one that has no fear?

Edited by PixiesSix, Oct 6, 2006 @ 1:15 PM.

[mollyann]

Oh, it makes plenty of sense for the Alliance to have done what they did, but Simon's explanation about what the amygdala does and the effect stripping it had on River was pretty off-base.

[PixiesSix]

Ah, I see. Hey, maybe Simon's not as smart as he thinks he is.

[NightsMistress]

I'm not sure, though, because River clearly shows fear and remorse throughout the show: she's afraid to go into St Lucy's on Ariel, she's remorseful for her being the root cause for why Simon's been taken away from his old life...

I think the explanation that Simon gives is consistent with River's condition, but it's not factually accurate based on what we know about the amygdala. As a fanwank, we could argue that 'cause we don't know all that much about the brain and how it functions, five hundred years from now they know things about the brain's structure that we don't know.

[PixiesSix]

It could also be because River's..."treatment"...was never finished. Simon got her out before they could finish whatever they were doing to her brain, so she wavers between fearing things she shouldn't and not fearing things she should.

[kat_may]

Okay, Jayne has just been totally ruined for me, and I need to be convinced not to hate him forever. Because that makes me sad. (First time viewer here.)

It's weird because I've been enjoying him, a lot; he's maybe my favorite. Also, while I'm always glad when the crew does dumb, risky things to save each other's asses, I'm not sure their loyalty has really been established. Like I was relieved that Mal came back to get the Tams from the Inquisition, I wasn't clear on why exactly he would, other than just to be a nice guy. And the crew coming back with the shuttles in "Out of Gas"; that kind of thing. So basically I'm saying that it makes sense for Jayne not to be loyal to the Tams, but I still hate him for it. His little quip at the end didn't help his case since I was NOT in the mood to find him cute and funny. Shut up, Jayne.

[Mack the Spoon]

Well, kat_may, Jayne gets his for his disloyalty, if that helps. :-) Also, though I was really mad for him after this incident, things he does later redeem him, IMO. Sorry for being vague, but I don't want to spoil you (and also it's been a while since I've watched the show, since I don't own the DVDs).

[Eegah]

From the beginning, Jayne has been completely open, both to the viewers and Mal himself, that he'd be perfectly willing to sell out the rest of the crew if the price was right. But we let it go because he's fun to watch and has some great lines. Then this episode reminds us that maybe we shouldn't like him so much. Kind of like Tony Soprano. Very well played by Joss.

[stillshimpy]

I agree, Eegah, I think his actions in this episode are needed as a reminder that he really isn't hiding a heart of gold, he can be a very dangerous man. I know I needed the reminder at least because before Ariel I had myself convinced that Jayne was more talk than action when it came to talking about the price being right. I thought he was posing, didn't want to reveal how much the people on Serenity meant to him. This reminded me that Mal had essentially bought Jayne's loyalty, and some day, if the price was right he might actually sell out Mal, or not but the question is always out there with Jayne. That above all the worst mistake a person could make around Jayne would be to consider themselves safe.

I do think he grew a bit, and changed a bit after this, after having to face Mal's anger and nearly being killed for his actions. He definitely felt shame, and sometimes that can be a path to growth.

I recently introduced Firefly to my sixteen-year-old son, and right before Jayne delivers the Tams to the Alliance Feds he commented, "Come on Jayne, prove you have a soul!" Of course Jayne doesn't at that particular point, but what I found interesting is that my husband, who was watching with us had completely misread the scene the first time he saw it, he thought Jayne was trying to help them escape. So, I was watching surrounded by guys who were shocked to find that Jayne's greed went that deep.

I was shocked the first time also, because he's just found out that River's been subjected to treatment that most of us would be shocked to hear of a lab rat having that inflicted upon them. It was a really well done, shocking betrayal on Jayne's part. I know it shouldn't have been shocking, but it was for me and obviously my family.

Okay, Jayne has just been totally ruined for me, and I need to be convinced not to hate him forever.

kat_may, I tend to think of this as the low point for Jayne's character, but it is also a starting point for potential change. He does care about Mal, and he does care about the crew. There are even signs of remorse when he asks Mal not to tell the crew what he did. He gets it, he understands, and whereas I don't think he feels remorse specifically towards the Tam's, at least we find out that Mal's respect is valuable to Jayne.

[Eegah]

And then in the next episode, even though Simon and River don't yet know what he did, he tries to make up for it by getting everyone fresh apples, which was probably really hard given how nuts Kaylee goes over that strawberry in the pilot.

[stillshimpy]

Don't worry, kat_may, I'll be vague here to keep from thoroughly spoiling you.

Eegah, there are a couple of things coming up having to do with what Jayne does with the money from the heist that go towards redeeming him.

It's not until the movie though that we learn that in his own very gruff way, Jayne cares about doing "right" at least when presented with an ultimate wrong. Not that he goes all fluffy carebear on any situation, but he is willing to at least risk his life to try and correct a terrible wrong.

[kat_may]

I was shocked the first time also, because he's just found out that River's been subjected to treatment that most of us would be shocked to hear of a lab rat having that inflicted upon them.

I was hoping that at that point he'd change his mind and try to get them away, but I guess that wouldn't really make sense either. He wouldn't just decide to give up all that money because he suddenly feels sorry for a crazy girl he doesn't even like.

Very well played by Joss.

Oh, I agree, I suppose. It does show integrity that he had one of his main characters do such a shitty thing; at least one of them really is an unethical criminal. It was just sad.

There are even signs of remorse when he asks Mal not to tell the crew what he did.

That helped a little. And now that I think about it, he also didn't have to take the Tams with him after he escaped from those first guards; he stopped to take off their handcuffs. I'm going to pretend he didn't have any reason to believe they'd be helpful in the escape. Also the apples - that was nice.

Thanks for the vague. Watching a show completely unspoiled is a rare experience for me, so I'm enjoying it.

[petpluto22]

From the beginning, Jayne has been completely open, both to the viewers and Mal himself, that he'd be perfectly willing to sell out the rest of the crew if the price was right. But we let it go because he's fun to watch and has some great lines. Then this episode reminds us that maybe we shouldn't like him so much. Kind of like Tony Soprano. Very well played by Joss.

See, I always had a different reaction to Jayne. I think he probably would sell out the crew and Mal if the price was right, but that would have to be a very high price indeed. I find Jayne interesting because of his reason why he didn't think selling out River and Simon was as bad as selling out Mal and the others -River and Simon weren't a part of the crew in Jayne's mind. He has a bit of loyalty to this crew, but not to hangers on. I tend to see it in this light simply because of his volatile reaction to Kaylee getting shot in Serenity and how he was going to kill the law man for it. If he was just a complete mercenary, it wouldn't have bothered him because Kaylee and the rest would just be collateral damage. I also see it in what he tells Mal in the end -he didn't sell out Mal, so Mal shouldn't be upset with him. He was only turning over two people who were causing more trouble than Jayne thought they were worth.

[stillshimpy]

Thanks for the vague. Watching a show completely unspoiled is a rare experience for me, so I'm enjoying it.

Oh, I'm sure, kat_may! That must be tremendous fun. Although, you probably want to stay out of the episode threads until such time as you have finished watching the series just to be on the safe side. . You've only got a bit to go, have fun with it all!

[sailorwind]

What Jayne did in Ariel didn't shock me at all. I thought it fit perfectly with his character. The only two things that shocked me about that episode were that:
A) Jayne didn't sell them out EARLIER for the cash, and
B) That Mal was stupid enough to send Jayne as their escort in the first place. There wouldn't have been a bit of difference in the plan had Mal taken Jayne to the vault and sent Zoe with the Tams, and since River had just SLASHED Jayne, that would have been the wise thing to do.

[beastie]

I can't decide whether it's bad writing or something profound about Mal's character that he's constantly putting himself in positions where he's depending on the loyalty of people whose loyalty is suspect. He trusts Jayne with the Tams. At various times, he expects Tracy and Simon to know that he wouldn't sell them out and go along with plans that make it seem like he's going to. I almost think that his only remaining faith is in the people he's decided to trust, and he's constantly giving them opportunities to prove that that faith is false, too. But maybe it's just bad writing.

[petpluto22]

I don't think it is bad writing. Mal's a loyal guy, but even more than that I think he has the expectation that those around him will acknowledge that he has their best interests in mind as well as his own when he comes up with a plan. It doesn't seem to occur to him that he has to explain himself to Tracy and Simon, and it seems like an affront to him each time someone reacts to a plan he hasn't fully explained with hesitancy or suspicion. I don't think he trusts Jayne to do the thing that's best for the crew, but I do think he trusts Jayne to do what Mal tells him to do. I also think that Jayne was more loyal to the crew than he let on. He betrays the Tams after making it clear to them throughout the previous episodes that he doesn't consider them part of the crew, and then tells Mal that his betrayal wasn't so bad because he didn't betray Mal. I definitely think it's more than partially this though:

I almost think that his only remaining faith is in the people he's decided to trust

But I don't agree that

he's constantly giving them opportunities to prove that that faith is false, too.

There's a certain bullheadedness to him, and he always seems surprised when people he's taken care of before or housed before don't trust him completely. Even though he's now outside the law, he's still "a man of honor in a den of thieves". And I think he expects those around him to understand that. When they don't -when they treat him like he's like all of the others- it upsets him.