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Kate and Sawyer: Rebel Swell


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#7531

Andewi

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Posted Jun 28, 2010 @ 5:53 PM

The majority of Sawyer/Kate fans that I've come across online, have always been notorious and blasted in their Jack hate.


While you may be an exception, most of the Jack/Kate fans I've seen online, are far worse in their descriptions of how much they hate Sawyer, and usually it involves STD's, just to give you an indication.

Especially after 'I do' aired, some extremely disturbing stuff was written by Jaters, about both Sawyer and Kate and I have never seen that level of disgusting venom in posts by Skaters, at least not the ones I know.

Edited by Andewi, Jun 28, 2010 @ 6:24 PM.


#7532

Annina

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Posted Jun 29, 2010 @ 1:13 AM

I was going through the rewatch thread and saw a comment about how Sawyer and Kate are too similar, both criminals, and therefore couldn't have reached redemption together, but with other people.

I have to admit that I've never seen them as being alike, or even the same as some people say. Yes, they were both had criminal pasts and family issues, but personality-wise, I always saw them as very different. Especially in the way they both related to their crimes.

Sawyer sort of wallowed in his pain, he pushed people away, isolated himself and pretended to enjoy being the outcast and a lone wolf. Kate, on the other hand, appeared to want to escape from her past and even pretend it never happened, she liked being with people and feeling useful, and she craved the approval for her good deeds.

The way I saw it, Kate was the one who made Sawyer reach out and start showing that he cares and he was the one who made her face her past and loved her just as she was. And I really would've loved to see these two together at the end of it all. *sad sigh*


Nice video compilations of some of Sawyer and Kate's best moments. (Not new videos)
Top 15 Sawyer & Kate moments (Part 1)
Top 15 Sawyer & Kate moments (Part 2)

I still can't choose my favorite Skate moment. I like too many of them too much.

#7533

LongLostie

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Posted Jun 29, 2010 @ 5:01 AM

After "I Do", I don't think I was of the group of Jaters that defamed Sawyer or Kate, because I was too busy reeling happily over the fact that Kate wasn't willing to leave without Jack while Sawyer is about to meet a .22 caliber bullet the hard way right in-front of her, placing Jate at the forefront of what was a very dramatic and fitting end to Skate.


That was the end of skate? I sure missed that. She wasn't leaving without Sawyer, that was for sure. It wasn't even a question. After that scene, she even ran and threw her arms around Sawyer when he was being threatened by another shooter. Then she DID leave without Jack of course. And there was plenty more Skate after that. And in all the years and years that followed, Jack and kate never ever got a moment or an episode like I Do.

Until the end they always mixed Jate and Skate into one anothers episodes. Something Nice Back Home, which I guess was the best Jate episode, ended the same way I Do did - Jate was "ended" because of Skate. That was the modus operandi of the writers. But neither one ended until the end. That was also their modus operandi. Like Evi said on some tv show, the whole idea of the triangle was to string the women viewers along, because they thought of women viewers as idiots I guess, who only watched for the soap opera. And that caused A LOT of backbiting among fans. It was a dirty trick.

The way I saw it, Kate was the one who made Sawyer reach out and start showing that he cares and he was the one who made her face her past and loved her just as she was


This is what I saw also. I think when you look at how much the Lost writers didn't seem to like women and wrote Kate in such a way she became hated, it makes sense they couldn't let a couple like Skate win in the end. It was too equal, not conventional enough and the woman had too much power in the relationship. These writers didn't find that interesting. They wanted a more standard story where the little lady "makes herself worthy" of the big hero man. In Jack's heaven at the end, they even made her innocent, I guess so she could be pure enough for him in heaven LOL.

Edited by LongLostie, Jun 29, 2010 @ 5:42 AM.


#7534

workingmom

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Posted Jun 29, 2010 @ 6:51 AM

I have to admit that I've never seen them as being alike, or even the same as some people say. Yes, they were both had criminal pasts and family issues, but personality-wise, I always saw them as very different. Especially in the way they both related to their crimes.

Sawyer sort of wallowed in his pain, he pushed people away, isolated himself and pretended to enjoy being the outcast and a lone wolf. Kate, on the other hand, appeared to want to escape from her past and even pretend it never happened, she liked being with people and feeling useful, and she craved the approval for her good deeds.


Good point about their differing personalities although I didn't see Kate doing things to get approval - she'd help people when there was no gratitude coming (like dragging Ray the farmer to safety). I saw that from the start in Kate, and Jack did too apparently as they became a team looking out for the good of the survivors.

The way I saw it, Kate was the one who made Sawyer reach out and start showing that he cares and he was the one who made her face her past and loved her just as she was. And I really would've loved to see these two together at the end of it all. *sad sigh*



Sawyer's "just as she was" often translated to him putting her down and not recognizing that she could be anything other than a lowlife like he saw himself. To me that was the wrong sort of acceptance except for being a rainy day man.
I always wondered at the double standard that it was sweet for Kate to try to encourage Sawyer to be a better man, but when Jack encouraged Kate to follow her better impulses and leave her conniving ways behind, it was called paternalistic and demeaning. I suppose that instead of a double standard I could be magnanimous and blame it on poor writing for a different gender.

Edited by workingmom, Jun 29, 2010 @ 6:52 AM.


#7535

Habte

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Posted Jun 29, 2010 @ 6:54 AM

LongLostie - i'm responding to you in the Jack/Kate thread.

#7536

Andewi

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Posted Jun 29, 2010 @ 6:56 AM

I think when you look at how much the Lost writers didn't seem to like women and wrote Kate in such a way she became hated, it makes sense they couldn't let a couple like Skate win in the end. It was too equal, not conventional enough and the woman had too much power in the relationship. These writers didn't find that interesting. They wanted a more standard story where the little lady "makes herself worthy" of the big hero man. In Jack's heaven at the end, they even made her innocent, I guess so she could be pure enough for him in heaven LOL.


I think this is exactly what the writers did and it's really sad. Jack's done almost nothing but put Kate down, belittle her, make her cry, make her feel unworthy.
Then there is Kate's relationship with Sawyer, which is the opposite : Kate is happy, laughing, Sawyer openly admires her etc. That was a nice change and it's the way it should be, a woman and a man should be each other's equals, but what happens then, the writers just backtrack in the end and ruin it all by letting Kate become Jack's doormat again.

The fact that Kate is innocent in Jack's dreamworld, how pathetic is that, basically, he has never changed his mind and she remained unworthy even after everything that's happened between them and on the island, she still needs to be be innocent for him to accept her, whereas Sawyer in the SW, after Kate's been arrested still admires her and tells her he likes her, innocent or not...

The whole SW was ridiculous, Jack also made himself a nice person, suddenly it was like he had a personality transplant, gone were the screaming, stalking, crying, vein-popping and Jack was very Zen.... Laughable !
If TPTB think it was the right way to get people to care about Jack, they were wrong. After 5 seasons of controlfreakishness, pathetic daddy-issues and self-pity, it was too late for Jack to redeem himself to me as a viewer, too little, too late. (and anyway, this new Jack was a corpse, LOL).

#7537

LongLostie

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Posted Jun 29, 2010 @ 7:02 AM

Sawyer's "just as she was" often translated to him putting her down and not recognizing that she could be anything other than a lowlife like he saw himself. To me that was the wrong sort of acceptance except for being a rainy day man.


That was how it started out, not how it developed over time. I don't think accepting someone as they are is ever a bad thing. It reminds me of that moment in Bridget Jones when Colin Firth says it to Bridget. It's never a bad thing. It's always beautiful, and super romantic. It's the essence of romance I think.

I always wondered at the double standard that it was sweet for Kate to try to encourage Sawyer to be a better man, but when Jack encouraged Kate to follow her better impluses and leave her conniving ways behind, it was called paternalistic and demeaning. I suppose that instead of a double standard I could be magnanimous and blame it on poor writing for a different gender.


I think it's because of a few things. One is that Jack was of the upper classes and very prestigious, being a spine surgeon etc. Whereas Kate was poor and a criminal. For him to emphasize this about her was very insulting. It made sense that he'd be arrogant and superior to her, nothing illogical or unrealistic about it, but it was NOT romantic imo. The oppposite. Then the fact that he was the alpha male of the show made the power imbalance worse. I actually read many places where people were in favor of the idea of Kate "making herself worthy" of Jack. That kind of makes me sick, because a. it makes the love conditional and b. it reinforces the idea that Kate was a lesser being than Jack. They did in fact reinforce that in the finale by making it all about Jack and by having Kate imagine her afterlife self as being innocent, i.e. "worthy" of jack. I really didn't like the anti woman mindset these writers came from and I think Jack and Kate typified it.

One thing that does make me happy is reading how both Josh and Evi said at various times recently that the cage scenes were their favorite of the series. I love that. I think of it every time I read someone disparage those scenes as filthy disgusting fuck porn. Obviously not to Josh and Evi!

I also love that Sawyer and Kate have the only two truly famous romantic moments in Lost. I can't count how many times I've seen the cage scene and the Con Man kiss mentioned as great screen love moments, by objective (meaning non-skate oriented) media. That means a lot to me because I know those moments will survive. I don't believe I've ever seen a single Jack & Kate romantic moment mentioned as great on any such collection of great moments. I can't even think what moment would be a candidate.

#7538

Andewi

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Posted Jun 29, 2010 @ 7:25 AM

I don't believe I've ever seen a single Jack & Kate romantic moment mentioned as great on any such collection of great moments. I can't even think what moment would be a candidate.


That's because there's nothing that even compares to these scenes, which makes you wonder why TPTB didn't put some more effort and energie into their pairing of choice.

The writers gave Kate and Sawyer the most romantic scenes, the first kiss, be it blackmail or not, and Kate didn't really seem to care one way or another anyway, the first sex-scene (triangle-wise), more beautiful kisses, that Kate did not run away from (Glass Ballerina, Helicopter etc.).

Why ? Why go to such lenghts with one couple all the while not giving the other couple (J&K) anything romantic, if they turn out to be endgame ? It is a weird way of telling a story, but I suppose the J/K ending was supposed to be a gotcha! moment, the stuff these writers seems to get a kick out of. Sick really that the triangle ended being nothing more than another 'guess-you-didn't-see-that-coming' moments...

Edited by Andewi, Jun 29, 2010 @ 7:35 AM.


#7539

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Posted Jun 29, 2010 @ 7:31 AM

The fact that Kate is innocent in Jack's dreamworld, how pathetic is that, basically, he has never changed his mind and she remained unworthy even after everything that's happened between them and on the island, she still needs to be be innocent for him to accept her, whereas Sawyer in the SW, after Kate's been arrested still admires her and tells her he likes her, innocent or not...

Taking it to Jack/Kate.

#7540

Habte

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Posted Jun 29, 2010 @ 7:52 AM

I don't think accepting someone as they are is ever a bad thing.

But he never accepted her b/c he thought she was fine as she was. He accepted her b/c he thought she was incapable of change. Vastly different and not very Ďbeautiful.í

One is that Jack was of the upper classes and very prestigious, being a spine surgeon etc. Whereas Kate was poor and a criminal. For him to emphasize this about her was very insulting


Iím sorry but when did Jack ever say she was a poor, socio-economic little runt? He never did. He only called her out on her shady stunts where necessary. Stating truths hurt sometimes. Teasing moments like Jack saying 'Iím a doctor' and joking that he could do better than her at golf is just that - teasing.

Regarding all the immaterial media mentions and love-ins. Iím sorry but is the average fan who appreciates Jack and Kate meant to feel LESS moved or touched by their story because they never entered into some mainstream collective consciousness? Please now.

If you feel Skate have attained a non-narrative superiority because of the praise bestowed on whatever woman Josh Holloway happened to be paired up with next, then Iím at least happy that you can take something positive out of your time spent watching the show.

#7541

LongLostie

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Posted Jun 29, 2010 @ 8:18 AM

But he never accepted her b/c he thought she was fine as she was. He accepted her b/c he thought she was incapable of change. Vastly different and not very Ďbeautiful.í


No, this wasn't as presented on the show. He thought she was very fine as she was. He was in love with her, and it was that love that brought him out of his lifelong depression over his childhood. Did Mark Darcy think Bridget Jones was incapable of change? Is that what he meant when he told her he loved her "just the way you are" ? I will always think that acceptance and unconditional love are the most beautiful parts of romance. I'll never see romance as a self improvement project for deficient women like Kate.

Iím sorry but when did Jack ever say she was a poor, socio-economic little runt? He never did. He only called her out on her shady stunts where necessary. Stating truths hurt sometimes.


Like I said, I don't find the superior man correcting the lesser female "where necessary" to be at all romantic. I think it's loathsome actually, very paternalistic and unsexy. They could have corrected it by giving them a final arc where Jack said the words that Mark Darcy said to Bridget. That would have been one way to redeem all the ugly years between Jack and Kate. But that wasn't a priority because I don't think these writers had enough respect for women to even think of writing something like that.

If you feel Skate have attained a non-narrative superiority because of the praise bestowed on whatever woman Josh Holloway happened to be paired up with next, then Iím at least happy that you can take something positive out of your time spent watching the show.


I don't know what this means and I don't think there will ever be much worthwhile to take away from a show that ended as badly as Lost.

#7542

workingmom

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Posted Jun 29, 2010 @ 9:48 AM

The fact that Kate is innocent in Jack's dreamworld, how pathetic is that, basically, he has never changed his mind and she remained unworthy even after everything that's happened between them and on the island, she still needs to be be innocent for him to accept her, whereas Sawyer in the SW, after Kate's been arrested still admires her and tells her he likes her, innocent or not...


I answered the Jack part of this in the Jack & Kate thread. As for Sawyer accepting her, not quite. It's Sideways Detective Ford who rejects her (twice) because she's a criminal. Even if he flirts with her, he won't give her an inch of help -

SAWYER: [laughs] It'd never work, sweetheart. I'm a cop, you're a murderer.
KATE: I already told you, I'm not a murderer.
SAWYER: Yeah, well, I'm still a cop.



AUSTEN: You could still let me go.
SAWYER: Why the hell would I do that?
AUSTEN: Because I told you I was innocent. And you believe me.
SAWYER: Doesn't matter. Still can't let you go, I'm a cop.
AUSTEN: You don't seem like a cop to me.
SAWYER: Nice knowin' ya.


So who's not accepting of her?

#7543

LongLostie

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Posted Jun 29, 2010 @ 9:52 AM

That was in the sideways whatever it was world. I have no idea what any of that shit was even supposed to be. I still think it was Jack's forever land, no one else's. I'm talking about the actual living characters on the other show. I don't know how we draw any conclusions from all that last minute weirdness but I know it had next to nothing to do with the story we watched all those years.

#7544

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Posted Jun 29, 2010 @ 9:54 AM

I think it's because of a few things. One is that Jack was of the upper classes and very prestigious, being a spine surgeon etc. Whereas Kate was poor and a criminal. For him to emphasize this about her was very insulting.


Could you cite the scene in which he emphasized that she was poor and a criminal? He said "I am not a murderer" to her in anger and frustration over her suggesting he kill the marshal, but where did wealth or poverty enter into that conversation? Since he outed his own father (arguably on the same or higher socio-economic status) when he committed a criminal act, I'd say Jack's issue is with someone causing wrongful death and lying rather than with lower classes as you say.

#7545

Andewi

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Posted Jun 29, 2010 @ 10:36 AM

I have no idea what any of that shit was even supposed to be. I still think it was Jack's forever land, no one else's.


If it was all in Jack's head, that would make it slightly better but not much. The writers completely messed Lost up by tacking on this stupid ending and making it all about Jack. All the other characters, IMO every single one of them more interesting than whiney Jack, had to be sacrificed for him. They got stupid stories that didn't go anywhere (they created the SW together, really, so they chose to have Sun shot in the belly while pregnant or did she create this herself ? That's just one example, there are many more).

They could have made Sawyer and Kate end-game and I still would have hated it. The whole 'SW is purgatory' revelation and to top it off the cheesy church scene, would have ruined the end anyway, no matter what pairings were going through the gate together.
I can't believe the writers messed up this badly, well, they're still in hiding, so I assume they've read the reviews....

#7546

gds

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Posted Jun 29, 2010 @ 10:47 AM

I also love that Sawyer and Kate have the only two truly famous romantic moments in Lost. I can't count how many times I've seen the cage scene and the Con Man kiss mentioned as great screen love moments, by objective (meaning non-skate oriented) media.


Putting aside the cage sex scene for a second, I don't see how the Con Man kiss was a great love moment. It was a sick moment where Sawyer was tied to a tree begging for a kiss while he made everyone think that he had the medicine needed to cure a girl who was having trouble breathing. I think that the Con Man kiss was more of a hot moment, but when it came to the story, it didn't highlight how much Sawyer and Kate loved each other. I'd say that the cage sex scene was more of a hot moment as well because I don't see how the remainder of "I Do" and the rest of season 3 portrays Kate and Sawyer as two people who are in love. Those moments got the media's attention because sex sells, IMO. The media is not going to highlight the ridiculous circumstances of both scenes because they are only interested in the heat created during those scenes, not the story behind it.

Edited by gds, Jun 29, 2010 @ 10:49 AM.


#7547

LongLostie

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Posted Jun 29, 2010 @ 10:48 AM

I would have hated the finale just as much if Skate was endgame too. First and foremost I wanted Lost to be GOOD. I didn't want it to go out the way it did. I used to think Lost was a thinking person's show but it turned out to be one of the stupidest shows I ever watched. That pissed me off. Having Skate get some fakey tacked on ending wouldn't have fixed that one bit.

#7548

gds

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Posted Jun 29, 2010 @ 11:04 AM

I would have hated the finale just as much if Skate was endgame too. First and foremost I wanted Lost to be GOOD. I didn't want it to go out the way it did. I used to think Lost was a thinking person's show but it turned out to be one of the stupidest shows I ever watched. That pissed me off. Having Skate get some fakey tacked on ending wouldn't have fixed that one bit.


Then I'm a little confused about this Skate debate then. What's the point if Lost sucks anyway, right? Sawyer and Kate could have had hot moments galore in the series finale and it apparently wouldn't have mattered.

#7549

workingmom

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Posted Jun 29, 2010 @ 11:07 AM

AUSTEN: You could still let me go.
SAWYER: Why the hell would I do that?
AUSTEN: Because I told you I was innocent. And you believe me.
SAWYER: Doesn't matter. Still can't let you go, I'm a cop.


It just occurred to me, Detective Ford in this scene is making a callback to a scene with Harrison Ford and Tommy Lee Jones in The Fugitive - where the Marshal Gerard got Dr. Kimble cornered and Kimble says "I'm innocent." The marshal says "I don't care."
It's his job to bring him in, not to pass judgment.

#7550

Andewi

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Posted Jun 29, 2010 @ 11:15 AM

Then I'm a little confused about this Skate debate then. What's the point if Lost sucks anyway, right? Sawyer and Kate could have had hot moments galore in the series finale and it apparently wouldn't have mattered.


The ending of Lost sucked, so much so that it kind of ruined six years of storytelling, because the whole SW did not go anywhere, it was just filler. That is what is disappointing.
I did not say I didn't want a Skate endgame, I said if they had been given an ending like Jack and Kate, then no, it would still have sucked. What I would have wanted was for Lost to have the past 5 seasons make sense in some way or other. Not some cheesy 'we're all dead but we're soooo happy to all be together' crap tacked on at the end, that had nothing to do with the overall story and could have been the last episode of any other TV show.

#7551

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Posted Jun 29, 2010 @ 2:12 PM

From June 18, 2010

Alongside moments like Ross & Rachel's first kiss, the Moonlighting kiss, Cheers, True Blood etc: Top 20: TV's Sexiest Scenes

4.Cage Match
Show: 'Lost' (2004-10)
Episode: Season 3, 'I Do'
Stars: Evangeline Lilly and Josh Holloway

Sexy sitch: In fairness to all the other sexy moments, Sawyer could muster up chemistry with a wet sponge. So when he and Kate, both hot, sweaty, thinking they might die and clinging to only each other, finally consummate their long-simmering feelings for each other -- in a cage! -- it resulted in the show's sexiest moment ever.

Scorch factor: You wanted them to, you thought they never would, and then they did ... perfection.



#7552

Professor Fate

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Posted Jun 29, 2010 @ 2:30 PM

TV Squad? Quite honestly I really could give a rat's ass about what they think is sexy. True Blood? IMO, one of the most overrated and at times stupidist shows on television - so I can totally see how the people who find True Blood sexy would find such a repulsive scene set in a filthy cage so damn sexy. There really is no accounting for taste.

Isn't it like the twentieth time you've brought up that TV Squad review. I don't blame you - when your favorite couple isn't even acknowledged in the series finale you've got to hold on to something.

Edited by Professor Fate, Jun 29, 2010 @ 2:35 PM.


#7553

LongLostie

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Posted Jun 29, 2010 @ 2:36 PM

so I can totally see how the people who find True Blood sexy would find such a repulsive scene set in a filthy cage so damn sexy.


CAn you think of any reason why Josh Holloway and Evangeline Lilly repeatedly refer to those scenes as their favorites? Are they those "kind of people" also?

#7554

Andewi

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Posted Jun 29, 2010 @ 2:46 PM

Yeah, I'd say that an ending like Jack and Kate's was far more epic. It just was, that's your issue.


It just was and it's my issue ? Who said it was epic, you ? So if I get this right, you say it's epic, so it just is, and that's my issue. Right, well then I say IMO it wasn't epic at all.

IMO, there was nothing really epic about Jack and Kate, and the fact that they were the slapped-on end-game doesn't change that.

And you're exactly right, the journey was good, the destination sucked, in other words Lost (=the journey) was good overall, then came the stupid season finale (=destination) and that sucked.

And I misinterpreted the journey ? Why, because I didn't see the Jack/Kate ending coming or more generally speaking, because I was so stupid as to think I would ever get any answers to all the mysteries of Lost ? So if I had just been a Jater, and only cared about one 'mystery' -who is Jack going to end up with- I would have liked the finale ? Well that explains it then....

Save face ? Reserve some dignity ? Arrogant ? I'm not the one going LOL and LMFAO when someone puts his/her meaning forward. That's arrogance for you...

#7555

Professor Fate

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Posted Jun 29, 2010 @ 2:47 PM

CAn you think of any reason why Josh Holloway and Evangeline Lilly repeatedly refer to those scenes as their favorites? Are they those "kind of people" also?


Both Josh and Evie could go ahead and get "I love cage sex" tattooed on their asses and imo it still wouldn't change the fact that that is an unbelievably awful scene. Maybe TV Squad could get us some footage of the actors getting that tattoo because I would find that much more entertaining. I totally agree with a poster who described it as pure "trailer trash" and I felt my IQ dropping significantly from watching it.

#7556

gds

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Posted Jun 29, 2010 @ 2:55 PM

CAn you think of any reason why Josh Holloway and Evangeline Lilly repeatedly refer to those scenes as their favorites? Are they those "kind of people" also?


To my recollection, I've heard EL repeatedly say that her favorite scene was when Claire gave birth to Aaron on the island and Kate delivered the baby, while Boone died in the same episode.

#7557

LongLostie

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Posted Jun 29, 2010 @ 2:59 PM

You didn't like it and that's totally cool but calling it filthy doesn't make it so. It just means you found it filthy, nothing more.

A wonderfully talented artist going by the screen name gideons life has made a beautiful set of posters for each episode of Lost. They are like breathtakingly beautiful and I enjoyed seeing what he did with each episode, how he summed it up. I mentioned it before but here is the link.

http://www.flickr.co...s/28863833@N07/

He also of course chose to feature the beautiful cage sex in the poster for I Do.

http://www.flickr.co...57623562151305/

And like I said, which I found so funny, for SNBH he featured an appendix! LOL!

http://www.flickr.co...57623867401286/

It's really fun to see what he chose to make a picture of. I don't think he's a filthy bad person and he sure doesn't seem like a shipper,just a nice Lost fan with an eye for good visuals. He did a great job on all the episodes.

To my recollection, I've heard EL repeatedly say that her favorite scene was when Claire gave birth to Aaron on the island and Kate delivered the baby, while Boone died in the same episode.


yes she also has mentioned that and called it her favorite episode. But she said that time in the cages was her favorite time and she loved that series of episodes. I will look for the links.

Edited by LongLostie, Jun 29, 2010 @ 3:01 PM.


#7558

TWoP Mars

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Posted Jun 29, 2010 @ 3:06 PM

Locking this thread. Not sure when or if it will reopen, since there is no attempt by most posters in here to follow the site's rules.