234 replies to this topic

[psydrama]

I had some things to say about the Dharma venture itself, and wasn't sure where to post it. Seeing as it is now part of the official show canon, I thought it might be appropriate to have a thread dedicated entirely to Hanso, the DeGroots and the Dharma project. I hope we get to keep it. I leave it to those wittier than I to come up with a catchy name or something.

Anyway, there has been a lot of discussion regarding the Nazi connection with Hanso and the Initiative, as well as the research methods possibly used in the project. As a grad student and researcher, I do a lot of work that is probably similar to what the DGs (De Groots) did at the University of Michigan. I got a real kick out of seeing their lives on campus on that film. Not a lot has changed in grad school, let me tell you. especially the pay. or the haircuts.

However, as a someone working primarily in the social sciences, I can tell you that by 1980, the US had implemented strict guidelines, known as Human Research Protection and human subject consent laws (1974), to prevent abuse in research, even with the best of intentions. This was inspired primarily by the horror of the Nazi experiments during WWII. The absolute immorality of these experiments conducted on human beings showed scientists that an "honor system" among themselves would no longer work. The universities in the US implemented committees known as Internal Review Boards (IRB), which monitor and approve all human subject research done at the university. This system is very much in place today, and is famous for being the bane of researchers' existence, as it limits their ability to control and manipulate subjects in almost any way.

In addition, there were several unfortunate "incidents" (hee), here in the US, such as the infamous Milgram experiments, in which ppl were made to believe that they were torturing others, as well as the horrifying and surreal Stanford Prison Experiment which drove ppl to violence and mental instability almost overnight. Therefore, the concept of "necessary deception" was introduced. As a researcher, you were obligated to be upfront about every possibility of deception in order to be approved by IRB and the gov. Deception of subjects or tormenting them emotionally was no longer acceptable by standard law.

My point is that the experiment and orientation film are clearly deceptive and misinforming. There is no way that film ever got approved by UIM's IRB, nor the research design and living conditions of the subjects. Therefore, I think that after 1970, the Dharma project very quickly went privatized and was no longer attached to mainstream academia by 1974, when these laws were passed. Hanso's up to no good, y'all!

Another word about experiments: you always assume that a subject must be able to equally choose either A or B. You don't set up an experiment where if a subject happens to feel kooky that day and choose B, everyone dies. It doesn't make a lot of sense.

Anyway, just wanted to get that out there. Hope this thread stays around!

BTW, if you haven't yet, check out The Hanso Foundation (Disney/ABC)

And The Dharma Initiative

ETA:
The Lost Online thread found something really weird at https://www.thehansofoundation.org (Secure)

Also, the orientation film is hidden at: http://www.thehansof...org/dharma.html

And apparently more video is coming! (tingle of excitement) see:
http://www.thehansof...s/ref_video.gif

Edited by psydrama, Oct 8, 2005 @ 5:42 AM.

[NuclearFunk]

I have already posted this on the Orientation thread, and on the speculation without spoilers thread, but I thought that this would be better suited here.

Alvar Hanso did apparently support resistance fighters during the second world war. That might explain why the city of Narvik (Norway) did appear on the orientation film myself. I am Norwegian myself, but didn't recognize the city, a friend of mine did. I immediately went to the norwegian lost site/forum and indeed, Narvik is the city on the clip.

Narvik was a very important cityy during WW2. It was a place of strategical interest, as it was the only harbour where zie Germans could export iron ore, which they depended upon. Narvik was probably the reason they invaded Norway on APRIL the 15th (4-15) (the allied mined it on the 8th!) If Narvik is a randomly picked city, then this coincidence is perhaps the coolest thing ever.

Another detail that leads us Norwegians to believe/hope that the city of Narvik is a plot point, is the fact that it is a city above the polar circle. Polar bears do not live here, but Narvik is close enough to provide some explanation as to where the polar bears come from.

For your information also, the city of Harstad, a neighbouring city, has a mayor named Hallvard Hansen. This is pretty close to Alvor Hanso! But probably a coincidence... And actually, Norway's second largest newspaper picked up the story quite fast, and is speculating if the man in the window actually is the father of a famous soccer coach!

Now for the evidence:

This is from the clip from the orientation film

This is the city of Narvik

And this is an image comparing the two

The city is Narvik, there is no doubt in my mind.

------

I have been perplexed for why ther hasn't been more interest from non-norwegians for this info. That the city is Narvik, is the best "evidenced" piece of information that the producers haven't thrown right at us. (Like the B.F Skinner reference, Unicersity of Michigan etc.)

I am aware of the possibility that they just picked a random city no-one, except a lot of Norwegians knew of. But I find this hard to believe. They could easily have done something totally unkown with 3D, a technique they've used before. there are also some small elements that indicates that this could very well fit with the Hanso Foundation, and the danish Alvor Hanso.

ETA: A fellow poster on the Norwegian lost-forum posted this info on The Fuselage where it was quickly removed, for no obvious reason.

Edited by NuclearFunk, Oct 8, 2005 @ 9:20 AM.

[psydrama]

The city is Narvik, there is no doubt in my mind.

Ooooh. Trippy! I don't think they would do this by mistake. What is that building in the center?

[LosinIt]

Love the Narvik connection. I'm sure its not totally coincidental. It could be a link to some kind of covert Nazi connection, but I hope not. Maybe the polar bears are from this area, but we still don't know how they fit with the experiments. The sound of the word, Narvik, resembles the sound of Dharma though. I'm sure most other lostaholics are interested as well. It's just that this season we are overwhelmed with hundreds of little detail clues. This could keep us occupied for years.

[NuclearFunk]

The big building is the city hall, for administration of the city. However, I doubt that this is the function of that building in the universe of "LOST". The building to the left is also a part of it. The red symbol on the wall, is the symbol of Narvik. The building to the right, is a shopping mall right now.

I may be wrong, but almost everyone from Narvik on the Norwegian forum (all two of them) has agreed with me on this.

[psydrama]

ETA: A fellow poster on the Norwegian lost-forum posted this info on The Fuselage where it was quickly removed, for no obvious reason.

conspiracy!

Nuclear, I think the photos prove beyond any doubt that it is the same building. I knew the Lost crew would be shocked at how quickly the Norweigan base would figure it out. God bless bit torrent. they need to stay on their toes with all of us scrutinizing everything.

Edited by psydrama, Oct 8, 2005 @ 7:22 AM.

[NuclearFunk]

Well, satelite and advanced cable makes it possible to recieve ABC over here. I know of a couple of guys, including me, that tapes it from there, and watches it before school/work. (University in my case.)

But yes, with this in mind AND bitTorrent, they should have known.

[DownsideUp]

I am so blown away by the immediate connection to the city of Narvik. Lost is not just a show you can sit back, relax and enjoy. You have to do your homework to fully grasp all the clues and mysteries of the island :) It's interactive TV, working closely with your online buddies to figure out just what's coming next!

[NuclearFunk]

Gonigal, I guess that is the strongest argument people have for linking Sun's father to the Hanso Foundation/Dharma Initiative.

I find it to be a little over-the-top if a mobster were to be involved with a psychological experiment or whatever the hatch is. However, we haven't really learned much from Sun's relationship with her father, or her father.

Edited by NuclearFunk, Oct 8, 2005 @ 1:09 PM.

[todell]

On the other hand, in general when one thinks of Pseudoscientific Eugenics fanatics the first thing to leap to mind is Nazis, so much so that by this point bringing Nazis into this sort of ominous conspiracy is cliched & downright cheesy. Fortunately, so far there seems little evidence of a Nazi connection here beyond Alavar Hanso reportedly having been an arms dealer since WW II

But in any event, I suspect that at it's shadowy core the Dhrama Initiative is a Build-A-Perfect-Utopian-Society-Through-The-Mass-Extinction-Of-The-Rest-Of-Humanity Doomsday Cult, which might lend a bit of credence to Desmond's fear that if he stops pushing the button the rest of the world might not be there anymore.

What about building the perfect soldier? If you put these seven projects together, perhaps that's what you come up with. Who's to say Hanso has ever stopped being an arms dealer?

Edited by todell, Oct 8, 2005 @ 5:00 PM.

[NuclearFunk]

What about building the perfect soldier? If you put these seven projects together, perhaps that's what you come up with. Who's to say Hanso has ever stopped being an arms dealer?

That is an interesting theory. However, I don't see how separating these projects from another would create the perfect soldier. And forcing a person to not do anything else than pushing a button wouldn't exactly prepare you to shoot and kill or whatever. Desmond doesn't act anywhere near "soldierism".

[todell]

That is an interesting theory. However, I don't see how separating these projects from another would create the perfect soldier. And forcing a person to not do anything else than pushing a button wouldn't exactly prepare you to shoot and kill or whatever. Desmond doesn't act anywhere near "soldierism".

Ahh, but Desmond wouldn't be the subject, rather he is acting in the researcher's capacity when he pushes the button. I think the subject/soldier is someone else altogether; perhaps the others?
Ethan?

And I didn't mean that the projects would be separated, but rather used together somehow.

But I don't know. I'm not committed to this. I just think the whole "working for the betterment of humanity" thing is an obvious crock. The only thing I could think of that Hanso would be obviously interested in would be warfare, what with his history and all. You mix eugenics, with immortality, a dash of remote viewing and you might come up with a very talented undead killing machine.

[psydrama]

Well, in the Seventies the hippies and the Skinnerians did not exactly get along. The hippies were more about Make Your Own Kind of Music than about Condition Me to Do Your Bidding. In other words, these were two conflicting philosophies/world views and apparently the goal of Dharma Institute was to somehow conjoin them. This could be echoed in the conflicting philosophies of the original Locke/Rousseau worldviews as well. The philosopher Locke would seem to go for Skinnerian Blank Slate conditioning. Whereas the more romantic Rousseau believed that man could be ennobled by following his own natural inclinations and it was best to avoid being enslaved by the evils of civilization (which goes with the hippy ethic).

this was posted in the episode thread, and I thought it would contribute to the discussion here. Losinit, yes! When I watched the video it seemed very counterintuitive to me that they would invoke Skinner when talking about the work of these flower-power academics. And then part with "namaste". This seems like a bunch of cockamamie to me. These are all very discrete and somewhat conflicting views of life. These concepts are being used, just like everything else on the island, as pawns to create a situation. The one reason I am pleased is that the writers have clearly read their shit and are using these ideas very masterfully.

OH. I am so waiting for the introduction of Dharma's LSD research. In 1970 scientists agreed that LSD had proponents which could potentially change human nature. it increased parasensory perception (hallucinations), telepathic abilities (remote viewing), changed ppl's physical condition (regained use of limbs), etc. However, the research was so controversial that it was shut down by the government. Maybe the whole island is an LSD trip! HEE.

Edited by psydrama, Oct 9, 2005 @ 1:49 PM.

[TheKandaKid]

From the Whole Earth Domination Catalogue (Fall 1970):


So you’ve finally decided to take over the world. Congratulations! Ambition is the first step.

First order of business is a secret base. You’re going to need some privacy to build your Doomsday Weapons Suitable for World Domination. Someplace not on any maps. Try to get your hands on dusty old Thule Society files (assuming you were never a member yourself). The Nipponse probably discovered a cursed island in the Pacific and shared it’s location with their Western Axis allies. Remember: cursed is good.

But how do you fill your island with jumpsuit/hardhat wearing minions in golf carts? It’s the 70’s so young folk and bright people are down on that whole military/industrial complex thing that you made you filthy rich. Convince them it’s a commune for world peace! You can use all kinds of eastern symbols and nomenclature. The kids love that stuff.

Now as any arms dealer knows, “you don’t put all your grenades into the same backpack”. You’re going to need to explore your options. Consider the following: weather control, electromagnetic railguns, psychic ninjas, mutated animals, hallucinogenic gas, etc. Since you have plenty of eggheads at your disposal who are now dependent on you for regular shipments of food and supplies, you may want to have them study technologies for you personally. Consider Life Extension drugs (since you probably are a mean old bastard who smokes) and cryogenics (in case something goes wrong, and you need to fast forward 30 years when the dust has settled and all your enemies are in geriatric care).

And don’t neglect your security. Remember. Dr. No’s “Dragon”? It was nothing more than a flame-thrower mounted ATV. It should be easy to outdo that. This is the 70s, anything is possible! You could make your security system invisible. Heck, make two! And remember, nosy government agents love sneaking in from the sea so have lots of sharks with lasers. Underwater lasers only have a 10-year life span so change the batteries periodically.

I know what you’re thinking. What do you do when everything goes to hell, thanks to the fore-mentioned spy? It always happens. An over-sexed super secret agent arrives; monkey wrenches your plans and triggers a self-destruction sequence. It’s going to happen, so you have to be prepared.

Make sure you have a reset sequence that can keep any of the high-energy projects from overloading and blowing the island sky-high. Even if it only resets the countdown for an hour or so. If the numbers aren’t easy to remember, post them everywhere so no one forgets. You can always convince some gullible spacemonkeys to stay behind and enter the reset sequence as long as you keep them fed and give them a groovy place to dance.

Next, reconfigure your radio tower with a code so you know if the space monkeys hit the wrong button and turn the island into a reef. If you can get off the island, run. But be sure to search every inch of your escape vehicle because $10 says the saboteur is in it with you. Don’t worry about leaving your henchman behind. They will all probably revert to savagery and the worshipping of strange underwater gods by the time you land in Cuba.

Finally, contact all your remaining minions and have them go into deep cover. Your personal physician, the hard-drinking con-man, the Triad boss, the young Australian psychic, and all the rest. Have them start families, get rich and lay low until you reappear 30 years later from cryostorage. Then you can all go back to the island and rebuild. But when your return be sure to bring a dozen heavily armed mercenaries in missile-loaded black helicopters and your beautiful but deadly knife-throwing granddaughter. You never know what sort of human refuse may have washed up while you were away.

[todell]

Y'all see the Dharma logo on the plane?

[joan]

Where?

[todell]

enlarge, and then look to Walt's left, our right. It's lighter than the body of the plane.

[Jchaney]

Could that be a fake? Is that site legit?

[todell]

It's not a fake. This is a fan site, just like TWoP or the Fuselage, but these shots have been up there since the episodes aired. Here is a shot from White Rabbit. If you go to the main list neither White Rabbit or Tabula Rasa were updated since October. I really don't think these photos have been altered.

Edited by todell, Oct 9, 2005 @ 9:50 PM.

[todell]

You're kidding, right? The Shark logo also didn't look exactly like the Dharma logo (the swan was missing, there was a black bar in its place, and I haven't lined up the I-ching blocks exactly, but you get the drift), do you deny that it was there? I respect your attention to detail, but I am not clear on why you are so quick to assume that it is not for real. It could just be a similar pattern like the shark pattern was similar, maybe representing different projects within the Hanso foundation.

But you have to admit that it is strange that it's on the plane. The thing about the visions of the Virgin Mary or of Jesus or the face on Mars is that as humans we are neurologically wired to see human faces and forms in patterns. But the Dharma logo isn't human. And not many of us are familiar with it--yet, there it is. And not just in one shot, but in mulitple episodes. From mulitple shots. I'm just sayin'.

[Haole]

Awesome post, TheKandaKid!

[DenMother]

Psydrama, your post just brought helpful chunks of information flooding back from college psych! Your point about the ethical regulations is a great one because I found myself wondering why, with alleged powerful financial backing, the Dharma corp name didn't hold any name recognition for Jack nor Locke.

As a doctor, you'd assume Jack would be fairly well read and even though he would have been a bit young to be involved with current events in the 70s, if it really was a powerful corp he'd at least recognize the name.

Same for Locke, as far as seeming well read (except not as young :)). Since it didn't click with either of them, that might support your idea that the company would have been forced to privatize and perhaps stay out of the public eye to practice the work they wanted to do.

And to TheKandaKid, well played. :D

[psydrama]

Y'all see the Dharma logo  on the plane?

HOLY BANANAS. *runs to find old bit torrent files*

Next, reconfigure your radio tower with a code so you know if the space monkeys hit the wrong button and turn the island into a reef.

Oh no! What if when Danielle changed the transmission, some automated system automatically wrote off the island and cut off all contact. or something. stupid! I never liked that she did that.

Edited by psydrama, Oct 10, 2005 @ 1:56 AM.

[TheKandaKid]

Thanks Haole and DenMother.

Oh no! What if when Danielle changed the transmission, some automated system automatically wrote off the island and cut off all contact. or something. stupid! I never liked that she did that.

It's a fair bet that Danielle set off alarms somewhere (UofM, Narvik?) when she switched the radio messege. If that was the DeGroots in the S.S. Kidsnatcher, they may have a bone to pick with her for condemning them to Craphole Island much longer than they planned. She better keep her rifles handy.

Of course she missed Hurly standing still so I think the Others are safe.

Edited by TheKandaKid, Oct 10, 2005 @ 3:14 AM.

[Acez]

That logo on the plane is an unmistakably close match to the dharma logo, and propably one of the seven projects signature.

Since the shark had a logo we can assume that it was a part of the zoology experiment.

The Swan is electromagnetism.

And the plane?

Edited by Acez, Oct 10, 2005 @ 5:14 AM.

[NuclearFunk]

I am not so sure if the plane was intentional. It is so vague, it could be anything. But if it was intentional: Yay to continuity! (or writers knowing where the show is going, whatever)

Btw. Velkommen Acez, håper du liker deg her.

[hhenggeler]

Now for the evidence:

This is from the clip from the orientation film

This is the city of Narvik

And this is an image comparing the two

The city is Narvik, there is no doubt in my mind.

Now my question is this.

Does the background in the Desmond/girl photo not resemble a similar area?

http://lost-media.co...7263&fullsize=1

It appears that it does. Not exact, but at least similarly? Can anyone corroborate?

[NuclearFunk]

It isn't Norway! The weather is nice.

No, but Norway hasn't got a city with "skyscrapers" near a harbor, like that. It looks like Sydney to me.