Posted Feb 21, 2012 @ 2:55 PM
Posted Mar 14, 2012 @ 2:20 PM
Why just end it without actually providing an ending?
I don't see how Nancy getting shot in the head isn't an ending. If it had been the series finale, there would be no is she or isn't she dead question. I think most people would have perceived it as pretty definite had it actually been the final episode. I also don't think we would need to see the other characters mourning Nancy at all.
Posted Apr 18, 2012 @ 9:11 AM
Its an interesting series, but so far I pretty much find all the characters, except Conrad, just horribly bad people.
Its a TV show, so I can judge without repurcussions. Nancy is a bad mother who barely even attempts to have any control over her kids. Silas is a snot nosed little punk that needs to be slapped. The DEA agent that married Nancy deserved to get killed. Nancy's supplier/COnrad's family are a bunch of self centered ***wipes.
I like COnrad and Kevin Nealon the best
The whole neighbor family is messed up.
I find the show interesting, but so far, I don't care if the dad died, I have little sympathy for the family.
My lack of sympathy also has nothing to do with Nancy dealing weed. I don't care about that, ought to be legalized and sold, taxed without a prescription IMO anyway. I just see a whole group of very selfish people with only their own interests in mind at almost all times.
Edited by HickoryColt, Apr 18, 2012 @ 9:12 AM.
Posted Apr 18, 2012 @ 9:44 AM
You have a lot of great show in front of you. Andy and Celia are the most annoying to me. Shane becomes better and better as each season progresses. I thought they would start up when The Big C started, but apparently there's no new Weeds until July.
I am half way through season 3 right now via Netflix,
Posted Apr 18, 2012 @ 12:23 PM
Posted Apr 18, 2012 @ 12:45 PM
Posted Apr 18, 2012 @ 1:04 PM
So excited they announced a start date!
Andy and Celia are the most annoying to me.
I cannot understand how Andy could ever be annoying except maybe in the very early seasons! But perhaps that is because I love Andy/am married to the real thing (not Justin Kirk, and with a job and his shit together, but still at heart they are so unbelievably similar).
HickoryColt clearly Weeds isn't everyone's cup of tea as evidenced here, personally I liked it more as it went on not less, others didn't like the changes that occur post S3 and post S6 and I can understand that. But you have good taste in TV so I encourage you to give it another chance & keep watching-- there is some acting GOLD coming up from MLP and JK as well as incredible, nuanced performances from Silas and Shane that really shows them growing up, and that its possible to be both a good and bad/horrible person which I think is true of all the characters at this point to some degree.
Posted Apr 18, 2012 @ 1:18 PM
HickoryColt clearly Weeds isn't everyone's cup of tea as evidenced here, personally I liked it more as it went on not less, others didn't like the changes that occur post S3 and post S6 and I can understand that. But you have good taste in TV so I encourage you to give it another chance & keep watching-- there is some acting GOLD coming up from MLP and JK as well as incredible, nuanced performances from Silas and Shane that really shows them growing up, and that its possible to be both a good and bad/horrible person which I think is true of all the characters at this point to some degree
Oh I will keep watching. Its not that I don't like the show. I just think it falls short of other shows of the same genre for this reason.
I just think the show fails in areas where similar shows have succeeded, which is in making me be emotionally invested in the characters and their lives. I am thinking most specifically of The Sopranos and Breaking Bad, the two shows that are the most similar to it that I have come across. There are characters in all of them that I don't like, but I can at least have empathize(not sympathize, its an important distinction) with them DESPITE knowing what horrible things they sometimes do. These characters, there are few of them I have much empathy for. Shane and COnrad, thats about it
Posted Apr 20, 2012 @ 10:30 AM
However that doesn't mean I'm not more excited for the return of BB because it is frankly so much more complex and fleshed out and not necessarily better, but different. Like the last 3 eps of last season, I couldn't watch sitting down, I was so on edge. Weeds has never done that to me-- although it has shocked me w twists, I have never been so nervous watching it I can't sit still.
I have to admit I was never particularly empathetic towards the majority of the characters on the Sopranos. Some sympathy yes, not so much empathy for anyone but the kids and maybe Adrianna.
Thanks again to Ganesh for insisting I watch BB. Best recommendation ever.
Posted Apr 20, 2012 @ 10:49 AM
I think the show should still end with Nancy's death or her faking her death. She's gotten away with just too much, and the kids and Andy wouldn't be able to start over with her still around.
I don't mind that they keep changing the show around. It makes sense that Nancy is always pushing it.
Posted Apr 20, 2012 @ 1:23 PM
HC I hear you and BB does do a better job at what you are talking about. And there are so many direct parallels btwn the 2 shows that you can't help but compare. I started watching Weeds when it premiered whereas I only became a BB junkie prior to the last season, so my comparison is backwards to yours. I guess I feel like Weeds is more obviously funny that BB (although for us junkies they do throw in some wanfank humor, like the pizza that has no slices cut), which distinguishes it, and is more random too, which is fun. I also think that as the show goes on you empathize more for all of the main characters, with the exception of Nancy who some have zero empathy or sympathy for. With Nancy it's either you love her or you hate her basically. If you love her (and strangely this theme plays out on the show almost exactly as it does w viewers!) you will put up with a lot because she has sucked you into her web, and will rationalize her behavior somehow. I have been sucked in totally. But whether you love her or love to hate her MLP is one of the best working actors on TV today and is captivating to watch regardless, she (and JK and Silas and Shane) inhabit their characters so well at this point that its crazy. Just as good if not in some cases better than the BB principals in my mind. I would put MLP on Bryan Cranston level for sure
Weeds is certainly lighter and funnier that BReaking Bad. Breaking Bad is intense and focuses pretty narrowly most weeks on the drug storyline, whereas with Weeds there are many other plots they have along with it. A wider cast of characters as well.
I am on the side of just not empathizing with Nancy, though, and that is where I think the show fails for many people. When you aren't really rooting for the supposed protagonist, it hurts the show.
Which is weird because Tony Soprano and Walt on Breaking Bad are much, much worse people overall than Nancy, and I know that. SOmehow though the writers on those shows sucked me into their lives and rooting for them. I think with Tony vs. Nancy its he at least TRIED to recognize his issues, was seeing a therapist and attempting to become a better person, even though ultimately, he failed, in many cases. There was effort though. WIth Nancy, its kind of like she just gets into it for the money, makes half hearted attempts to act like she cares about it affecting her kids and goes through the motions of keeping her family together emotionally after her husband's death, but ultimately she strikes me as incredibly self centered and not making that much of an effort to protect her family from her lifestyle.
Posted Apr 23, 2012 @ 9:49 PM
And really, wow, every one of these characters is just selfish with seemingly little to no conscience about what they are doing. Nancy will seemingly sleep with any male with power. Not that I mind the sex scenes, but still, she goes for any guy that can help her financially or professionally.
And now they are smuggling people across the border? And none of them give it much thought. Actually I think this is another thing that differentiates this show from Breaking Bad and The Sopranos. The consequences from breaking the law and all they day is treated in a very light hearted and "everything will work out" sort of manner. With the other shows, while the actions of the characters are worse, the consequences and the high stakes nature of it all is taken much more seriously. The basic nature of that is this is a comedy whereas those are dramas, but it still bugs me for some reason
Still an interesting show
Edited by HickoryColt, Apr 23, 2012 @ 9:55 PM.
Posted Apr 26, 2012 @ 6:17 PM
But I think Weeds does have a bit of an agenda too unlike the other shows mentioned. The season you are watching now addresses immigration/smuggling/borders in a variety of ways, its kind of a theme. The prior season addressed, in an oblique way but still, religion-- so there's a background agenda/theme to seasons a lot that you don't find in those other shows. I would say the first and second season addressed race and class and of course the use of drugs. Later seasons I'll not spoil for you. And the whole concept of having the ultimate narcissist as your main character I think is also a theme in and of itself, we live in very self-obsessed times right now.
I guess I disagree that all the characters are selfish, even where you are Shane would give his right arm for his mom. Nancy is clearly so selfish she can't see it or help it, but I still love her faults and all. Doug is... well, he's Doug. The others no spoiling.
Overall though on your empathy point- I guess it goes back to, do you empathize with Nancy's original plight and handling of it in S1? Because like BB and Walt's cancer diagnosis, everything else stems from that. It's like she's been backing herself further and further into a corner ever since Judah died. Her choices since then all stem back to that original choice to sell dime bags. I guess I do empathize very much with where she started. I can't imagine being a stay at home mom without a college degree or career, living in an expensive house and keeping up with the Joneses, with 2 kids, and then having your husband just drop dead-- the idea of that literally makes me feel sick, so I think that's empathy. I can see myself doing whatever I thought I had to do to hold onto whatever shred of normalcy I could, even if that meant naively setting up a paradox that ultimately destroys what you were trying to preserve. Or the idea that by trying to provide for your family in this way you are ultimately damaging them even more. Or maybe along the way you realize you never wanted to preserve normalcy anyway and you never really were the person you seemed to be pre-Judah's death. Either way I really do empathize with that-- trapping yourself, getting in your own way to such horrible effect. But like I said, I'm sucked into Nancy, so I give her a pass on a lot(I have never loved her promiscuity but that is part of her whole persona- control, especially over men, which ties back into how good or not good of a mother she is).
Keep watching- only on Weeds would you get a line this great about what's wrong with the current world according to Andy:
Hive collapse, Somali pirates, credit default swaps, Mexican gangster druglord politicians, North Korean Nukes, American Idol
Posted Apr 26, 2012 @ 8:32 PM
Financially, sure, I can understand, and again, I don't care that she sold weed. What turns me off from her is the fact that in Season one/two, shortly after the death of her husband, while she does everything she can to financially support the family, she does little to nothing to support her kids or help her kids psychologically. SHe goes off and has an affair with a DEA agent and gets married to him in secret. Then she proceeds to have a number of affairs/flings with her business partners/bosses, all the while ignoring the ruin of the lives that she is creating for her kids. She acts like she is sorry for this by once in awhile telling them she knows she is not there enough amd she will try harder, but she never does
I am finding Season five interesting though because she finally, on the verge of being killed, seems to have been convinced of the serious nature of the situation she has put everyone in.
I still ultimately see all these characters as very selfish though, except maybe ANdy, who seems to really have the families best interest in mind, in a twisted way, at the end of season 4/season 5 beginning.
I am enjoying Season 4/5 more than the first 3.
I think Nancy's highlight of the series so far is her driving towards the border at the end of season 4, on the phone buying SIlas 18th birthday gift, trying to sum up her feelings about all her regrets and all she has done for his card to accompany his gift basket. That scene was great, as she see her get closer and closer to the border and running out of time to trying to explain her feelings and her actions. Probably her best scene of the series so far.
Edited by HickoryColt, Apr 26, 2012 @ 8:34 PM.
Posted Apr 27, 2012 @ 8:59 AM
I think Nancy's highlight of the series so far is her driving towards the border at the end of season 4, on the phone buying Silas 18th birthday gift, trying to sum up her feelings about all her regrets and all she has done for his card to accompany his gift basket. That scene was great, as she see her get closer and closer to the border and running out of time to trying to explain her feelings and her actions. Probably her best scene of the series so far.
A million times yes HC although there's more to come, but that is one of her best scenes for sure, and you can almost hear the anguish going through her head as she faces where her choices have led her with regards to her kids. I also love her in two non-verbal scenes: in S1 (when she watches the tape of her and Judah and cries) and S4 (when she is in the bathtub talking to Andy but its mostly music). She is a damn good actor. Especially because she is playing a character who is also an actor in her own way.
I like S4-6 the best because most of the focus esp later on is on the nuclear family and addressing the issues that as you point out she has created/ignored/let get worse to horrible effect, as you've seen in the S4 oedipal plots with the boys, and also will address the selfishness issue (you're already seeing the turn in Andy). I don't agree with the choices she has made as a mom on an objective basis, but I also feel like not all moms are great (although on TV they almost always are)and maybe she never was to begin with and this huge event just made a mediocre mom worse.
Regarding her promiscuity, I think that is a way of her asserting control over men (and they seem more than willing to let her play them). I don't think can empathize with that, I don't think I would handle myself that way personally (but then again I have a good job and if god forbid Mr.LevitateMe weren't in the picture I would have options available to me that she didn't-- income/savings, family, etc) but I think she enjoys the control and having sex generally and its a way to get that while maintaining emotional distance all the while. She is terrified of anyone getting in whether she realizes it or not- I think Conrad actually came the closest. Esteban... we can talk when you're done w S5.
But specifics aside I do truly empathize with the idea of getting in your own way to such huge effect and with such disastrous consequences to those immediately around you, and your own character flaws making you largely blind to those results until they smack you in the face.
BTW they cut the theme song for budget, they were going to switch to a new one (to show that she's out of her little box) for the first ep in Ren-Mar but it was too much money to pull off a similar thing to what they did S1-3. Thx SHO!
PS S5 "Van Nuys" is my favorite episode of the entire series and where the prior ridiculously awesome quote from Andy came from.
Edited by LevitateMe, Apr 27, 2012 @ 11:10 AM.
Posted Apr 27, 2012 @ 4:03 PM
I will say the show, over time, does show you that nothing good seems to come of the deeds of this group of people. You slowly are exposed to the ruin of their lives and its downward spiral as the show continues. It was not as evident in the first few seasons as the 4th and 5th seasons.
The funniest thing of all was Celia being kidnapped and the phone calls trying to find someone to pay her ransom. Hilarious watching one by one and not one person even gives a second thought to whether they will pay for her to be saved.
Posted May 21, 2012 @ 4:52 PM
Totally agree S4-5 (and 6 if you are there) are the karma boomerang from S1-3 for the nuclear Botwin fam and their closest "friends" Doug and Celia, but you also see some serious growth in character from Andy, Silas, and even Shane and Nancy herself (depending on where you are) -- during this time you see examples, some small and some huge, that they do care about more than just themselves. It's crazy to watch a later season episode of one of those characters close to an early one-- with the kids the difference is huge because they also grew physically, but its in their performances too. Andy as he currently is is barely recognizable as the couch-crashing lovable loser in S1.
I have been thinking about this though and wonder- Nancy is a narcissist. We know this. The show hammers it home through her actions, behavior, the words of others (OMG isn't Jill Price-Grey awesome?!). But HC you made the comparison to two characters with whom you empathize- Walt from BB and Tony from the Sopranos. Despite circumstances, I think its reasonable to assert that these two are narcissists as well (Walt with his having to be the smartest/best/not being able to take any kind of outside help, Tony with... well, everything). Honestly I think the reason people empathize less with Nancy and view her as being more self-centered, beyond the format of the show not being an hour long drama that can explore every nuance and detail, is that she is a woman and mother. Honestly. I think if Nancy were a guy it would not be such a big issue. She is a woman and she knows how to use that to her advantage.... she is not the poster child for being a mom, even though we've seen just as shit parenting on the show from others who fit the more traditional maternal stereotype. So honestly... this show I think is a wierd mirror for our society, as self-absorbed as it is now btwn Facebook, Twitter, etc, and also how f'd up our expectations from women in society (be a great mom! be good at your job! it's totally possible to do both awesome-- except actually it's usually not!) are right now. Dunno if that was intentional or not but that's another difference btwn this show and the 2 comps.
And yes that bathtub scene rocks but it's Andy not Shane who she is baring herself too, which I love, because I wish those 2 crazy kids would get their act together and stop pretending they aren't already essentially married.
Edited by LevitateMe, May 21, 2012 @ 4:53 PM.
Posted May 23, 2012 @ 11:23 PM
A man is a strong leader... turn him into a woman, and he becomes a bitch.
A man is a poor parent, well, it's the mother's job anyway. A women is a poor parent and the hate and bile come cascading down on her.
Objectively, Nancy Botwin is a better person and better parent in almost every way than Tony Soprano, but he is the one that the audience sympathizes with. It's no mystery why that happens.
Posted Jun 14, 2012 @ 11:34 AM
Posted Jun 17, 2012 @ 9:17 PM
I am up to last season now, episode 4
And I don't think the difference between the perception of Nancy and the others mentioned is based on her being female. To me its based more on ww and tony, as best they can, keeping their families out of of their corrupt lives. Nancy actively involves them in her life, though she tried half heatedly to keep her kids out at first. Now tony and ww are completely successful at keeping things separate, but their is still some separation
Posted Jun 19, 2012 @ 11:34 PM
Posted Jun 20, 2012 @ 7:04 PM
Posted Jun 21, 2012 @ 10:05 AM
HC when you are at the end of last season I do have a question for you. I wonder what someone's take on the finale would be if they saw all of the episodes from S1-present closer together like you did as opposed to over the years.
Ganesh nice to see you again and totally agree that this is a great way to wrap this series. I love this show and will miss it but everything comes to an end/runs out of original material, and I really like that they are going to be able to end it on their own terms as they envision it ending, which truly is unusual today. Now if only that would involve Andy/Nancy resolution.... I would be in Ms. Kohan's debt for a while.... but I'm not holding my breath
Bri Pag I dunno but would be happy to cosign that petition
Posted Jun 24, 2012 @ 11:35 AM
HC hi there and glad to see you hung in. And I think you raise a good point, the other 2 don't actively employ their families in their endeavors (well, Walt does but that was not his choice), so that is another difference for sure. But I do think her being a woman plays a part as well. I mean, Walt and Tony have put their families in just as great (if not greater) risk at times despite the families being more removed from their father's/husband's criminal activities, but I don't think they got so much venom directed towards them about being horrible fathers for endangering their families as Nancy does for being a horrible mother. I think in the other shows the writing and the viewer put the onus of family on Carmela and Skylar more. Nancy has to take it all as both the bad guy and the sole parent
I think it goes beyond her just being female as opposed to the other two being male, though.
If you just separate out for a minute their personal and professional lives, Walt and Tony I never thought were horrible parents. Horrible husbands? Yes. But not bad parents. And while Carmela and Skylar have their own separate faults, I actually never thought they were bad parents either. Don't agree with all their decisions, but most of them don't involve parenting
The key is Walt and Tony seem to be able to separate their personal and professional lives. Tony messes around on Carmella, but not with business associates. Granted its easier because most of his business associates are male, but still, he keeps them apart.
Nancy CONSISTENTLY and seemingly PURPOSELY becomes involved with the people she is working with. She MARRIED a DEA agent. She started to have an affair with Conrad while they were growing weed together. Almost everyone associate or boss she has, it seems, she ends up having an affair with. Not only does she NOT separate her personal and professional relationships she seems to actively TRY to mix them up, as if she doesnt know how to run a purely professional relationship with a male. She doesn't seem to learn from past mistakes.
Posted Jun 25, 2012 @ 1:49 PM
And she doesn't really learn from past mistakes for sure! Part of what makes her so fun yet painful to watch.
Edited by LevitateMe, Jun 25, 2012 @ 1:51 PM.
Posted Jun 26, 2012 @ 1:44 PM
Can't wait for it to start!!!!!!!