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Criminal Minds: You Are Not Tired of Serial Killers, Are You?


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#36991

FrogsRule

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Posted Apr 23, 2012 @ 5:41 AM

Zanneej, I replied in the same thread. Thanks! :-) It would be nice if they listen.

Re Ziva - I like her character for several reasons, not least of which is that the kick-ass persona is Cote in real life. She was good at kick-boxing and other martial arts before she was cast in NCIS. It wasn't an afterthought with that role, as it seems to be with JJ.

Heck, IRL women are better at marksmanship. We don't tend to 'power' (pull) the weapon - we're more patient and don't force it. Why can't stuff like that be written into the nuJJ profile?
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#36992

alegra

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Posted Apr 23, 2012 @ 7:08 AM

OK, I guess I’m the only one here that loved the old JJ and has no problem with the “new” JJ.

Before she was summarily fired only to miraculously reappear, JJ made a unique contribution to the team. In addition to deciding what cases they took, she was their liaison with the media and with other police agencies. It was a job she handled exceedingly well. She knew how to coddle both, yet when it was time to be tough with them, she could. And along the way, she became a decent profiler herself, learning from her colleagues.


This is why I don’t find it unrealistic that JJ is a good profiler, she was an already experienced SSA with all this first hand exposure to profiling plus her duties with reading all the files and picking their cases.
I don’t think they showed her as being any kind of super profiler (or super mom or super good in languages – we actually saw her struggle with being away from her child and saying what’s your name in Spanish doesn’t make her proficient in any language) but on the other hand to me it’s very plausible that she adapted easily to her new role.

And in any case it’s not just JJ, they all are exceptionally good at what they do, that’s why they are in the first team of the BAU. So if JJ wasn’t very good at what she did as a liaison or as a profiler she wouldn't belong in this team.

Then she reappears - which indeed made me happy. Suddenly she's a full-fledged profiler who has become proficient - no, super-duper - at not only profiling, but also at all forms of self-defense, a blond Ziva. And who just as suddenly seems to stink at her former liaison duties.


When did they show her to suddenly stink at her former duties?

As for the physical aspect of the new JJ, I think is too much ink spent on a very small part of the character. I know they seem to talk about it a lot but it was just one little scene in one episode - and supposedly one more on the finale - out of 24 ep. That doesn’t make her Xena or Ziva or whatever.
As it happened with Beth and Hotch where a less than 10’ appearance stretched over 3 episodes was talked about like it was an arc that took over the show, I believe it’s too much focus and publicity in something minor because they don’t know how to properly promote the show (they also said that Hotch’s fight in Heathridge Manor made him the American Jackie Chan and it really wasn’t even close).

Her talk with Morgan about training in self-defense before she came back I think is enough for one or even two fight scenes per year and if they did spent any more time showing her training, people would go ballistic with accusations that she is taking over the show instead of spending the time on the cases (or Reid or Hotch or Prentiss).

If they aren't going to make JJ go back to picking the cases, they should at least let Reid take a crack at it.


I don’t think they were ever going to make JJ go back to picking the cases or give the job to Reid or even make the new girl a media liaison. The network didn’t believe they needed a character doing such a job - hence AJ’s firing - and by the end of season 6 they pretty much invalidated the importance of the job by suggesting Garcia could do it with no prior knowledge in law enforcement, just her mad computer skills, and with the team effortlessly going forward without a liaison.

Edited by alegra, Apr 23, 2012 @ 7:13 AM.

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#36993

MsTaken

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Posted Apr 23, 2012 @ 7:32 AM

While I agree with FrogsRule's points (and made many of the same ones in my prior post), I actually don't see *that* radical a difference between Old JJ and New JJ, sudden physical combat 'skillz' aside. IMO, she was always a generic, undefined, blandly perfect cipher; it's just a matter of degree.

The network didn’t believe they needed a character doing such a job - hence AJ’s firing


Honestly, I always figured the network just felt this relentlessly dull, charisma-free character/actress added nothing to the show, and while I'm generally a big proponent of including more 'strong' female characters on TV, I can't disagree with them there. (IF that was their reasoning, of course---I don't work for CBS, and can only speculate on the motives behind some of their decisions!) I blame the CM writers for failing to create remotely layered or compelling female characters, not the network for getting rid of them.

and by the end of season 6 they pretty much invalidated the importance of the job by suggesting Garcia could do it with no prior knowledge in law enforcement,


Heh---yeah, I always thought the show did a poor job of defining the media liaison role, and some clunky dialogue about how it's a VERY important and difficult job (and one which, of course, flawless JJ does better than any other person ever could!) still didn't do much to convince me. I thought it was funny how S6 conceded---without intending to, of course---that JJ's job really was vague and easily filled even by people who already HAD other full-time jobs of their own.

Edited by MsTaken, Apr 23, 2012 @ 7:34 AM.

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#36994

Hazy Hazel

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Posted Apr 23, 2012 @ 8:38 AM

As for the physical aspect of the new JJ, I think is too much ink spent on a very small part of the character. I know they seem to talk about it a lot but it was just one little scene in one episode - and supposedly one more on the finale - out of 24 ep. That doesnít make her Xena or Ziva or whatever.
As it happened with Beth and Hotch where a less than 10í appearance stretched over 3 episodes was talked about like it was an arc that took over the show, I believe itís too much focus and publicity in something minor because they donít know how to properly promote the show (they also said that Hotchís fight in Heathridge Manor made him the American Jackie Chan and it really wasnít even close).


I agree with this wholeheartedly. This does seem to be the season of fans sinking their teeth into a few minutes of something that occured on screen and blowing it way out of proportion and giving it way more more attention then it ever deserved. I think for the millions of fans who don't scour the internet obsessively for comments from the show's production staff and cast, they watch these episodes in blissful ignorance and appreciate those minor moments on screen for what they were and give them little or no second thought at all. I'm guessing that JJ's fight in "Closing Time" was no more noteworthy to a blissfully uninformed viewer than any other take down of any other unsub in any other episode and that Hotch's few minutes of romance was no more memorable or bothersome (depending on your point of view) than any other cutesy personal moment he's had over the past seven years.

I'm not a big fan of JJ 2.0 because I preferred the role she had with the team as the liason and am not impressed with profiler JJ who is full of piss and attitude. I don't know if the fighting thing really bothers me. I think I liked the team better when they weren't superheroes who consistently got physical with the bad guys, but when they were smart, calm individuals who would beat the bad guys with their minds and could get physical sometimes if they needed to. I'm guessing if "Natural Born Killer" were written/shot in Season 7 instead of in Season 1, Hotch would've miraculously kicked that guy's ass in the junkyard instead of getting completely owned, but being allowed to beat him with his mind later. Brains are always more entertaining that brawn to me though.
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#36995

alegra

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Posted Apr 23, 2012 @ 1:48 PM

I guess we have to strongly agree to disagree MsTaken because I never saw anything “relentlessly” dull or generic or lacking in charisma in the actress or the character.
In AJ I see a talented actress with both charisma and grace on screen that always delivered big time in the few occasions that they gave her good storylines and she infused her JJ with spank and warmth in equal measure and for me was an essential character in the team - and I will admit that I found her character more essential than Prentiss.

I don’t believe that the network had any trouble with AJ’s talent (or Paget’s for that matter), I think they saw that the spin off didn’t have a liaison in the team, so of course the mother ship didn’t need one either, and since this is a show about profilers why not save some money by firing the two veteran females and hire one younger and cheaper actress to be the female profiler, at least that seemed to be the original plan, before the backlash.

I always thought the show did a poor job of defining the media liaison role, and some clunky dialogue about how it's a VERY important and difficult job


I disagree with this too. I think her job was very well defined in both the picking of cases and involvement with the media and other law enforcement agencies. They could have done a better job at showing it more often, that is undeniable. Still the few times that they did show how instrumental she was in choosing their cases were always memorable (North Mamon, Legacy, The Crossing or Risky Business comes to mind).

I'm not a big fan of JJ 2.0 because I preferred the role she had with the team as the liason and am not impressed with profiler JJ who is full of piss and attitude.


Hazel I agree, I would have preferred JJ the liaison as well but as I said before that was not going to happen unfortunately.
But I don’t have a problem with profiler JJ because the attitude was something that we saw on occasion in the past too (I recently rewatched Slave of Duty and with Hotch out for the count JJ stormed the police station with exactly this kind of attitude and authority), so the different role in the team brought out that attitude in the front. But when we saw her dealing with families or victims the old JJ was still right there (Foundation being one of the better examples in the season).

Edited by alegra, Apr 23, 2012 @ 1:52 PM.

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#36996

FrogsRule

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Posted Apr 23, 2012 @ 4:31 PM

You know what just hit me? (Ha!) Why don't they bring in the African-American actress (cannot remember her name!) who subbed for JJ during JJ's pregnancy?

When they brought her in, it "proved" how difficult JJ's job as liaison was, how effective she was for the team, what differentiated that job from profiling. And it underscored all the reasons that that should not be part of Garcia's job.

I liked that actor and liked how she meshed with the team - and messed with Morgan's head. ;-) She would be a natural.
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#36997

Mattybangbang

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Posted Apr 23, 2012 @ 5:16 PM

FrogsRule, I did like Jordan, but if they bring anyone back I really feel it should be Elle.

I know she isn't very popular in the fandom, but I always really liked her character, even when she was doing something shitty. She was always... interesting, and I liked her sisterly bond with Reid. Her arc could be really fine drama, too, in the hands of a GOOD writer (paws OFF, Erica).

I think Elle would do a great job of filling the 'familial' vibe Em's departure is once again leaving. She could also be a possible conduit to Gideon, if the writers decide they've kept in sporadic touch. We could wank they both had meltdowns, so could relate. Elle could be... rehabilitated. She could be the Spike.

ETA: Oh, and Hear Hear to the JJ love. Yeah, she's a bitch this year, but not in MY story...

Edited by Mattybangbang, Apr 23, 2012 @ 5:17 PM.

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#36998

cmm226

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Posted Apr 23, 2012 @ 7:28 PM

FrogsRule, I did like Jordan, but if they bring anyone back I really feel it should be Elle.

I liked Elle, more than JJ and much more than Prentiss, but I don't think they should bring her back. They ruined the character when they wrote her off.

Re: JJ. Before she left, I liked her (or at least, I didn't mind her) but she's become ff material for me since she came back. I hate looking at her permanent scowl.
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#36999

Cendre

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Posted Apr 23, 2012 @ 8:29 PM

As for the physical aspect of the new JJ, I think is too much ink spent on a very small part of the character. I know they seem to talk about it a lot but it was just one little scene in one episode - and supposedly one more on the finale - out of 24 ep. That doesnít make her Xena or Ziva or whatever.
As it happened with Beth and Hotch where a less than 10í appearance stretched over 3 episodes was talked about like it was an arc that took over the show, I believe itís too much focus and publicity in something minor because they donít know how to properly promote the show (they also said that Hotchís fight in Heathridge Manor made him the American Jackie Chan and it really wasnít even close).



I agree with this wholeheartedly. This does seem to be the season of fans sinking their teeth into a few minutes of something that occured on screen and blowing it way out of proportion and giving it way more more attention then it ever deserved. I think for the millions of fans who don't scour the internet obsessively for comments from the show's production staff and cast, they watch these episodes in blissful ignorance and appreciate those minor moments on screen for what they were and give them little or no second thought at all. I'm guessing that JJ's fight in "Closing Time" was no more noteworthy to a blissfully uninformed viewer than any other take down of any other unsub in any other episode and that Hotch's few minutes of romance was no more memorable or bothersome (depending on your point of view) than any other cutesy personal moment he's had over the past seven years.

I'm not a big fan of JJ 2.0 because I preferred the role she had with the team as the liason and am not impressed with profiler JJ who is full of piss and attitude. I don't know if the fighting thing really bothers me. I think I liked the team better when they weren't superheroes who consistently got physical with the bad guys, but when they were smart, calm individuals who would beat the bad guys with their minds and could get physical sometimes if they needed to. I'm guessing if "Natural Born Killer" were written/shot in Season 7 instead of in Season 1, Hotch would've miraculously kicked that guy's ass in the junkyard instead of getting completely owned, but being allowed to beat him with his mind later. Brains are always more entertaining that brawn to me though.


I completely agree. I'm not a fan of "Profiler JJ" either but I think some fans are giving too much attention to that fight.
The fighting scene didn't bother me, it simply left me unimpressed. Just like you I'm not one to enjoy fighting scenes much, I really prefer the cerebral aspect of the show.
I'm not bothered by the fact that JJ might
Spoiler
, what bothers me is
Spoiler
.

I would also tend to say that what's done is done.

The writers are not going to backpedal on JJ 2.0 : seeing JJ struggling with her new role next season wouldn't really make sense now.
Should they have portrayed JJ in such a way this season, should they have portrayed her as a rookie profiler ? In my opinion yes, because even she worked with the team as a media liaison for seven years (and learned about profiling through her work and team mates) she was still no profiler.

But the writers didn't portray it that way, and they probably can't go back on that.
It simply wouldn't make sense to see JJ asking for advices about some basic aspect of a her "new" job now (she was already the one assisting Garcia when she "negotiated" in "Hope", ... a scene that made absolutely no sense).

I suppose the writers could still have JJ asking for help, for something truly challenging (profiling wise), but that would be it. She's now, in canon, just as good and efficient as the rest of them (or almost).
I'm not saying that I'm enjoying it, but I don't see the writers suddenly deciding to write her differently now. And JJ being sure of herself and confident seems to be an important aspect of the character for the writers.

There's still one positive thing about it : with JJ as a profiler maybe there's a tiny chance that Prentiss won't be replaced.

I'm pretty sure that if JJ was still the media liaison of the team, whether or not a new female profiler would join the team wouldn't even be up to debate.
Now, at least maybe, just maybe, they won't go down that road. I know that it's also up to CBS (or at least it seems so), and they're apparently forcing their hand...but I'm going to try to stay positive.

About Beth, you're also right. Some fans blew it out of proportion. I happen to like that storyline for Hotch and I thought it was portrayed nicely.
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#37000

zanneej

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Posted Apr 23, 2012 @ 9:09 PM

It wasn't just the actual fight scene that bothered me so much as it was the fact that they couldn't leave well enough alone and just had to try go make JJ into Superwoman or something. They completely lack subtlety and they just don't know how to edit and tone things down. Not only is she a great profiler who has suggestions that trump Reid's (like in "A Family Affair") but now she has to be all badass at fighting. It just turns her into more of a caricature-- which is something they seem to be doing with all of the characters to an extent and it is frustrating. Even Morgan and Hotch have gotten their asses kicked. Hell, Morgan got his ass kicked by a woman in one episode (but it was a more realistic close range fight rather than a flashy fake looking one).

I'm also annoyed that they feel that Garcia just has to be in the round table room all the time now. So they made up the BS excuse that she picks the cases-- which makes absolutely no sense for the character whatsoever.

I still think JJ is likeable and human. I thought she was pretty badass before and didn't need to have them add fighting skills to make her "better". She was sassy and she didn't take crap from people. She could be flirty and seem sweet to get cooperation or she could just flat out tell people what she was going to do and that was that. Like when she threatened to pull rank on Will in "Jones". I would rather see that side of her than roundhouse kicks.

As for a replacement, I liked Jordan but a lot of people didn't and it was clear that she couldn't handle the job. She basically said she couldn't wait to get back to her previous job because the stuff the BAU dealt with was too much for her.

I miss Elle and wish they would have her guest star to see how she's doing, but I can't see Lola wanting to move back out to LA and come back on-- plus they sort of burned bridges with the way they wrote her off.

Unfortunately for Rachel Nichols, I don't think they would bring her back. I feel badly for her-- especially the way she was fired, but her character was not my favorite. If I could ignore the whole cadet thing and screwing up in her first ep she wasn't so bad. She was good with exposition dialog in her first ep, but the character lacked a certain spark.

There was another chat awhile back-- I can't remember which one-- where we asked if we would find out about Hotch's childhood and if he was really abused and I think the answer was that the writers weren't going to go there. I don't need them to do a whole episode about it or go into great detail, but it would be nice for them to touch on it and confirm one way or the other and at least know who the abuser was. We don't even know the names of Hotch's parents. We know the father is dead and can assume the mother is either dead or in a nursing home. It would be interesting if something related to a case Hotch prosecuted in the past came up.

And now I suddenly have brain freeze. LOL.
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#37001

FrogsRule

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Posted Apr 24, 2012 @ 1:52 AM

I think the reason my Jordan (thanks, all!) aha moment appealed to me so much:
  • It would bring back the liaison role. I think it was dumb to lose it. ;-)
  • Garcia would be back in the position that she does best (and hey, they could even give her a promotion or add in a tech layer like liase with CIA-other FBI-DoD high level techies, to keep it from being a demotion).
  • They would have an opportunity for an additional 'team member' who could even out the male-female ratio.
  • It would leave the central team intact (i.e., Jordan or the new liaison person would be second tier like Garcia), so the writers could focus on developing them.

Prentiss's leaving may actually provide the writers with the excuse they need to correct the nuJJ issues. With Prentiss gone, JJ could realize how much she depended on Emily, and how green she really is as a profiler. In fact, it would leave the door open for Emily to mentor JJ offscreen, to keep the Prentiss character alive and viable, talked about.

Yes, JJ learned a lot about profiling while she worked as liaison. But she was not a profiler, nor was she a field agent. There's still plenty of room in her "sophomore" year to let her grow into her new role.

I think the bottom line is just that. We were expected to suspend disbelief and accept nuJJ as full-fledged profiler overnight. Yes, I want the JJ character to grow. But I want to see the growth, not have it crammed down my throat.
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#37002

alegra

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Posted Apr 24, 2012 @ 5:13 AM

I don’t agree that JJ should have been portrayed as rookie profiler who is unsure or needs much mentoring. That was something they should have done with Ashley - and failed miserably - or if it was an agent that came from another unit. I think her experience working with this very team for almost 7 years prior, even if it was in another capacity, makes all the difference in the world. JJ was never portrayed as staying solely in a liaison capacity. She was taking active part in the investigations in working victimology, taking part in interrogations, contributing during the brainstorming sessions that led to the profile and she constantly asked questions for all 5 seasons before she was gone. Plus she knows the dynamics of the team in terms of personalities and how they operate during the case. There was also a 3 month period that happened off screen that could have worked as time for adjustment.

Of course there is always room for learning things and growing but that applies to all characters. What I would have liked to see in one episode early in the season, since we had that scene in North Mammon about her liking her previous job, was her thoughts on being a profiler as opposed to the liaison or even her thoughts on being - in way - forced to become a profiler as the only way to come back in the BAU.

And of course she was a field agent before. She was always a field agent, she was not only going on crime scenes, she was also taking part in raids regularly. The only new element is the hand to hand fighting technics that I still think is blown way out of proportion and I don’t think made her a superwoman… she ultimately won the fight by kicking the unsub in the nuts, a very womanly way to win :)

Edited by alegra, Apr 24, 2012 @ 5:15 AM.

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#37003

zanneej

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Posted Apr 24, 2012 @ 3:24 PM

Did you guys see the transcript for the chat with Shemar Moore?
http://www.cmsetrepo...re-4-23-12.html

I'm not trying to hate on him, but the way he refers to himself in the third person irks me. LOL.

I have to say I was really really irritated at the part where he said that the Unsubs are the real stars of the show and its not about the team. ARG! Go back and watch the first four seasons! It's about the team figuring out who the unsubs are and finding justice for the victims! I wonder if Erica Messer coached him or was nearby.

He thinks this is the best season of the show so far....
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#37004

FrogsRule

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Posted Apr 24, 2012 @ 3:39 PM

alegra, I am not well-versed on CM canon, and in fact did not watch the entire season that JJ and Prentiss were off the team. Watched exactly one show, hated what they had done to "my" CM, and started watching something else. After having watched from S1.

Saying that, because I do not know off the top of my head what was given as JJ's educational and training background for her role as liaison. I would think it had to have been an educational background steeped in project management, journalism or PR, or something else with an administrative bent. That was what her role entailed.

While I don't remember canon on her background, I very well remember one show when (as liaison) she helped them figure out an essential component of a case. Hotch asked her if she'd ever considered doing what it took to become a profiler. JJ flatly turned him down and said she liked her job too much, that while she respected what she did, she did not want to do what *they* did.

That scene clearly stuck with me (and I've probably seen it three or four times, since CM is in reruns).

They therefore cannot wave a magic wand and go poof and have JJ become a profiler with minimal training. Profiling requires a deep background in psychology or psychiatry and other behavioral sciences, along with forensic training (they are not CSIs, but they have to know a lot about crime scene investigation).

It's not the type of training that JJ could pick up simply by watching the team or by reading textbooks. And frankly, if she had had that type of training (instead of project management, PR, or something administrative), she would have been a lousy liaison. It's why Garcia stinks at the project management side of stuff.

Zanneej, ITA that Shemar has to be toeing the company line. If they take CM in that direction, it may not even make it through all of next season. Regardless of how many shows they tape.
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#37005

DrBlork

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Posted Apr 24, 2012 @ 4:24 PM

zanneej, what irked me most about Shemar's chat was his repeated referral to non-CM projects of his. Gratuitously so, like out of the blue. ITA with everything else you said. The more I read/see of him outside his CM character, the more superficial he appears to me; always "on." I don't hate or even dislike the guy, but he really is sounding more and more like just a pretty face without a lot behind it...
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#37006

zanneej

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Posted Apr 24, 2012 @ 6:18 PM

I think he has a public persona he portrays to some extent. I think he is quite different from Morgan so its weird to see how he talks when not playing Morgan. I can't say that I can relate to his lifestyle in any way, but its his life. I do worry that he might end up alone when his physique can't be maintained and if he doesn't keep the money coming in. I mean, he can probably find someone, and I hope he does-- but he's already 40. It's his life though so its none of my business.

I think he is a warm and caring person from everything I've seen and read. He's involved with charities and he's obviously very affectionate with his cast mates. They seem to adore him and he is clearly pleasant enough to work with that they haven't drummed him off of any shows. Other than getting picked up for suspected drunk driving once, I think he's managed to stay out of trouble.

The third person thing is just irksome though. LOL.
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#37007

Hazy Hazel

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Posted Apr 24, 2012 @ 6:56 PM

Finale photos that make it seem pretty clear that it is
Spoiler


http://ajcook.fan-si...ormal_001~0.jpg

http://www.tv.com/sh...otos/image-336/

http://www.tv.com/sh...otos/image-334/

http://www.tv.com/sh...otos/image-337/

Edited by Hazy Hazel, Apr 24, 2012 @ 6:57 PM.

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#37008

Cendre

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Posted Apr 24, 2012 @ 8:02 PM

Finale photos that make it seem pretty clear that it is

Spoiler


http://ajcook.fan-si...ormal_001~0.jpg

http://www.tv.com/sh...otos/image-336/

http://www.tv.com/sh...otos/image-334/

http://www.tv.com/sh...otos/image-337/


I saw that too and I'm fine with that possibility.
The only thing that I didn't want to see was Hotch sending in
Spoiler
, it wouldn't have made sense.

And the possibility of the
Spoiler
was already on the back of my mind.
Spoiler

Edited by Cendre, Apr 24, 2012 @ 8:03 PM.

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#37009

Westmoon

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Posted Apr 24, 2012 @ 8:31 PM

Finale photos that make it seem pretty clear that it is

Spoiler
.

http://ajcook.fan-si...ormal_001~0.jpg

http://www.tv.com/sh...otos/image-336/

http://www.tv.com/sh...otos/image-334/

http://www.tv.com/sh...otos/image-337/


I'm thinking there is a very real possibility it's
Spoiler
But this is Season 7, where nothing much makes sense anymore.
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#37010

MarasCross

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Posted Apr 25, 2012 @ 12:07 AM

It wasn't just the actual fight scene that bothered me so much as it was the fact that they couldn't leave well enough alone and just had to try go make JJ into Superwoman or something.

The fight scene was ridiculous. We already know she's a crack shot, but she doesn't pick the guy off. She's got great communications skills, but she doesn't distract him until Morgan can sneak up behind him. She puts her gun down and rushes an armed suspect. Sorry folks, she's dead. And Morgan is dead from confronting Billy Flynn alone. Hotch is dead too, for stripping off his vest before talking to the unsub in"Hanley Waters". Same goes for Rossi, for doing the same thing in "Snake Eyes". And Reid in "Corazon". And you thought it was just Prentiss. Damn, after Seasons 6 and 7, I think they're all dead.

There was another chat awhile back-- I can't remember which one-- where we asked if we would find out about Hotch's childhood and if he was really abused and I think the answer was that the writers weren't going to go there. I don't need them to do a whole episode about it or go into great detail, but it would be nice for them to touch on it and confirm one way or the other and at least know who the abuser was.

I concede Gibson's point about the value of retaining the mystery in Hotch's character, so I wouldn't want them to spell it all out, but it was such a subtext to Hotch's actions and attitudes in the first five seasons that now that they never refer to it, I really feel its loss. The complexity is not there in his character anymore. The Beth arc is all very well, but,I have to wonder what happened to all his problems maintaining a relationship. He's made an effort to find more personal time, but there must still be times when he has to drop everything and fly clear across the country. Why is Beth okay with that? And I keep waiting for that awkward conversation: "Yes, I was married, but she divorced me because i was obsessed with my job, and she's dead because one of those psychotic madmen that I hunt for a living kidnapped and killed her, but it's all fine now because I killed him with my bare hands. So, dinner at 8?"

I think the bottom line is just that. We were expected to suspend disbelief and accept nuJJ as full-fledged profiler overnight. Yes, I want the JJ character to grow. But I want to see the growth, not have it crammed down my throat.†

She could have made the same job transition much earlier in the series with Hotch's blessing, but she turned it down because she genuinely embraced her position.†They sold her media-liaison skills as the bestest ever, so good that other government agencies were clamoring to hire her away, and those job offers were so politically charged that she essentially couldn't say no. Then after 3 months of pursuing a full-time job with one or the other of those agencies, she's mysteriously back as a profiler, with apparently no recollection of her earlier vocation and no negative consequences to her career. This evolution is not driven by any kind of logic, it and the absurd Prentiss spy arc are a combination of overcompensation and self indulgence.

I have to say I was really really irritated at the part where he said that the Unsubs are the real stars of the show and its not about the team. ARG! Go back and watch the first four seasons! It's about the team figuring out who the unsubs are and finding justice for the victims! I wonder if Erica Messer coached him or was nearby.

It's disappointing to have someone who's been with the show the whole time understand its appeal so poorly, or at least act as if he does. It's every bit about the knights and not the dragons. A show where the unsubs were the real stars would be fucked up and not worth watching. They've got to see that that candle shines most brightly in the darkness.
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#37011

FrogsRule

FrogsRule

    Fanatic

Posted Apr 25, 2012 @ 1:58 AM

MarasCross, I so second your emotion! Re Hotch: One of my writing teachers taught us that in a good story, you never put a weapon above the mantel if you're not planning to use it. (Metaphorically, and literally.)

Why introduce that aspect of Hotch's background and then forget it? Serves zero purpose except to frustrate viewers who paid attention in class. They shouldn't harp on it, and I don't see anyone here asking them to do so. But if they're going to tease with it, the tease means nothing if it's never mentioned again.

I also totally agree with your additional comments to my original ones about JJ. You said it so much better. :-)

I feel like we're watching a collection of unrelated short stories that all revolve around the same characters and have the same general theme, but that have no connection to one another, no continuity whatever.

A shame. The old CM didn't suffer from that disease.
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#37012

alegra

alegra

    Channel Surfer

Posted Apr 25, 2012 @ 2:29 AM

FrogsRule we don’t know JJ’s educational background in college, or Prentiss’s or Elle’s for that matter, but we know that both Hotch and Morgan had studied law so they didn’t have any deep background in psychology or psychiatry beforehand.

But that is beside the point because JJ is first and foremost an FBI agent (she was already a Special Agent in Season 1 and I think by season 2 she was a Supervisory Special Agent) and that means that JJ went through the FBI Academy. If you check their website you’ll see that the train amongst other things in law, behavioral science, basic and advanced investigative and intelligence techniques, interrogation, forensic science, counterintelligence, cyber, and criminal investigations and of course there is also weapons and physical training which includes “everything from defensive tactics to surveillance…from physical fitness to tactical driving”. So even her training with Morgan was a refreshment course after being away at the DOD/State/Whatever, not first time training.

So JJ was already a fully trained field agent before she joint the BAU and her liaison duties were an additional role that could tie back to her studies before joining the FBI.
And most of the above skills we have seen her use in one way or another in the first 5 seasons.
So it’s canon that she is an experienced field agent.

Now she needed to take extra training to become a profiler and that she did between seasons 6 and 7 but she also had the advantage of being around profilers for all those years, so she is way more in tune with those extra skills than any agent who becomes a profiler but comes from any other unit of the FBI.

Garcia on the other hand works in the FBI but is not an agent of any kind, she is a technical analyst, and that’s what makes her unqualified to pick cases (the fact that she is over sensitive about it is just annoying).

Then after 3 months of pursuing a full-time job with one or the other of those agencies, she's mysteriously back as a profiler, with apparently no recollection of her earlier vocation and no negative consequences to her career.


I have to check the S7 premier but I believe JJ returned to the team as a profiler 7 months after Prentiss’s “death” and the premier was set 3 months after her return to the team in her new position, so she was at the DOD/State/Whatever way more than a year and there was plenty of off screen time to take the profiling courses. And why should there be any negative consequence to her career?

She could have made the same job transition much earlier in the series with Hotch's blessing, but she turned it down because she genuinely embraced her position.


That scene in “North Mammon” was really great and memorable as I believe it was the first time a member of the BAU articulated why she loved her job instead of expressing how soul crashing it is and it’s a scene that solidified my love for JJ (and I loved Hotch’s playfulness in the scene too).

But that happened in season 2, way before the network had the epiphany that they didn’t need to have a liaison for the team. So in real life it’s understandable why they made JJ a profiler and in imaginary CM it’s plausible that JJ changed her mind (they even referenced in the season 6 finale that it was something that she needed time to think about) and became a profiler as the only way she could come back to team she loved. And as I said before I really wish we had at least one mirror scene with Hotch where they discussed the forced change but that story got lost in the aftermath of the super spy drama and JJ’s return to the team was pretty much swept under the rag.

Sorry folks, she's dead. And Morgan is dead from confronting Billy Flynn alone. Hotch is dead too, for stripping off his vest before talking to the unsub in"Hanley Waters". Same goes for Rossi, for doing the same thing in "Snake Eyes". And Reid in "Corazon". And you thought it was just Prentiss. Damn, after Seasons 6 and 7, I think they're all dead.


MarasCross that is funny and sadly true!

Edited by alegra, Apr 25, 2012 @ 2:41 AM.

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#37013

DrBlork

DrBlork

    Video Archivist

Posted Apr 25, 2012 @ 10:15 AM

MarasCross, everything you said and thanks for a few chuckles along the way there, too.

It's disappointing to have someone who's been with the show the whole time understand its appeal so poorly, or at least act as if he does. It's every bit about the knights and not the dragons. A show where the unsubs were the real stars would be fucked up and not worth watching. They've got to see that that candle shines most brightly in the darkness.

D'you suppose the sea change in CM's storytelling format could be due to CBS wanting to appeal to more of the same audience that likes shows about killers, like Dexter or the new one in the UK, Appropriate Adult, whose lead was just nominated for a BAFTA? That the glorification of violence (and I don't mean just the gore factor) is something CBS, or maybe CM's writers themselves, think is needed to help get back their audience (which, as we can see from the ratings, is slipping a little more each week)?
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#37014

lovelygirl81

lovelygirl81

    Channel Surfer

Posted Apr 25, 2012 @ 12:00 PM

I concede Gibson's point about the value of retaining the mystery in Hotch's character, so I wouldn't want them to spell it all out, but it was such a subtext to Hotch's actions and attitudes in the first five seasons that now that they never refer to it, I really feel its loss. The complexity is not there in his character anymore. The Beth arc is all very well, but,I have to wonder what happened to all his problems maintaining a relationship. He's made an effort to find more personal time, but there must still be times when he has to drop everything and fly clear across the country. Why is Beth okay with that? And I keep waiting for that awkward conversation: "Yes, I was married, but she divorced me because i was obsessed with my job, and she's dead because one of those psychotic madmen that I hunt for a living kidnapped and killed her, but it's all fine now because I killed him with my bare hands. So, dinner at 8?"


This is exactly what I've had a hard time articulating about hotch and the Beth arc. He has always been a complex character, particularly when it comes to family. While he could have started out and stayed the generic family guy agent, that wasn't who he was. He struggled with his obligations and his commitment to the job which made him more complex and interesting. The Beth arc has made it seem like he's the relationship/family guy agent of the show and now that Haley is dead, time to return him to his original state.

I agree with marascross that the Beth arc is all very well, but it's completely robbed Hoth of his complexity. It's great he's learned some lessons from the Haley/reaper situation, but I doubt he's got it all figured out. Why not show him telling Beth about Haley and working through those issues as opposed to just cutesy scenes of them running together? I think I fall into the camp of liking hotch a little tortured or a work in progress. While the Beth stuff is fine, it is sort of generic for my tastes.

Edited by lovelygirl81, Apr 25, 2012 @ 12:04 PM.

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#37015

alegra

alegra

    Channel Surfer

Posted Apr 26, 2012 @ 10:36 AM

Every arc has stages and you got to build a relationship before you bring the clouds over it. And since this a procedural about serial killers and not a character drama you only have 2 little scenes, about 3 minutes total per episode to tell the personal story of your heroes. And that has been pretty much the norm in CM, with few exceptions, since the beginning.

So in the Beth/Hotch arc we had 3 episodes where we saw the tentative meeting and Hotch mulling over moving on, Hotch taking the first step in that direction with the first date and the acceptance of the new relationship by introducing Beth to Jack and the team. Total scene time 10 minutes or less. Thatís the first stage of this arc and part of Hotchís ongoing struggle between work and personal life.

The disgruntled fans are already going wild at this point with complaints of Beth being shoved down throats, sheís too stalkerish, too perky, too much Hotch, why Hotch gets a girlfriend and not Reid/Morgan/Rossi, Hotch is acting OOC etc. The producers, wisely I believe, eased up on this storyline before death threats start to come about, giving the characters, actors, writers and fans time to take a breath.

Now next year, if they donít give up on this arc altogether, there will be time for the next stage, for the hard questions, the difficult conversations and the complications that come in every relationship sooner or later. Hopefully they will do it as good as they did in this first part Ė and for me this arc is probably the only thing this season they did right. But in that small part of the story that we saw on screen, there really was no room for dark revelations.

And as much as we all love a dark and brooding Hotch you really canít torture your character nonstop. You got to give him time to recuperate and heal and change chapters because otherwise he becomes one note. And I donít think that having a little sunshine in his life makes him lose his complexity or stops his growth. If anything it adds layers to him.
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#37016

Hazy Hazel

Hazy Hazel

    Couch Potato

Posted Apr 26, 2012 @ 3:45 PM

I agree that Hotch's arc played out exactly as it was supposed to an needed to and I thought it was done quite well considering the amount of time they can devote to something like that. However I don't agree that they wisely or otherwise eased up on the storyline because I doubt they pay that much attention to a handful of screaming fanatics on the internet. I think they gave it the attention they had planned on giving it and continued on with the season as planned. Beth will make another appearance this season and I suppose that will determine whether or not they will continue on with it next season, well that and the actress's availability of course. She could end up like the Tamara gal from Season 5 and never be spoken of again.
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#37017

zanneej

zanneej

    Couch Potato

Posted Apr 26, 2012 @ 5:12 PM

Hazy_Hazel, thanks for the links to the pictures from the season finale.
Spoiler

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#37018

lovelygirl81

lovelygirl81

    Channel Surfer

Posted Apr 26, 2012 @ 10:10 PM

Well, I'll respectfully disagree about the hotch/beth arc playing out exactly as it was supposed to. I wouldn't say I was gong crazy about it and calling Beth a stalker or whatever, I just didn't think it added anything to the show and the characterization of Hotch considering how generic it was. And while I do agree characters need to grow, I'd rather see a work in progress on my screen for purely entertainment reasons. Fully developed Hotch may be great for his personal development, but I find it boring to watch.
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#37019

Westmoon

Westmoon

    Loyal Viewer

Posted Apr 26, 2012 @ 10:34 PM

I think the writers have missed the boat on many points this season that have been raised over the years (and even from September on), and I don't have any real faith in them running well into next season with the few things they did right.

There were numerous opportunities for them which most people have mentioned already.

A second conversation between Hotch and JJ, where she explains to him (or anyone, really) why she changed her mind, took the profiling courses and came back.

Just what's happening with Reid's headaches, and what caused him to take a sabbatical (his mother we assume - unless that was a blind on his part - but what exactly and was that the only thing?) and contemplate not being re-instated?

Is Hotch experiencing any doubt over his new relationship other than the awkwardness and fear/joy of riding that bike again? Because while I love the sweetness of what he's building with Beth, there's a pretty big elephant in the room representing his failed marriage and Haley's murder.

Given that only Hotch and JJ knew Prentiss was alive and that Doyle's capture would be the only action that could bring her back, why was no one looking for him other than Morgan and Garcia? Interpol seemed to be okay with his murdering several agents and their families, Hotch was off in Pakistan and JJ was apparently taking Profiling 101. Didn't they want her back? It sure didn't look like it to me. Thank God Morgan and Garcia went rogue, or she'd still be in Paris.

And speaking of Emily, who's looking after Declan now? She risked everything for years to keep him hidden and safe but is he even in her life anymore?

In Self-Fulfilling Prophecy last night, both Hotch and Morgan tell Strauss that her alcohol dependency is putting the integrity and safety of the team at risk. She needs help, and by golly they're going to make sure she gets it whether she wants to or not, because it's not just her career at risk. A moment to reflect (even in a subtle manner) that they could (and maybe should) have taken the same route with Reid would have been a rare nod to continuity. A learning from past mistakes. Because their inaction back then could have resulted in a very bad ending for Reid and themselves.

I find it disappointing that despite being a procedural first and foremost, they've given most fans enough small scattered character moments so we can relate to the team as people and discuss details until the cows come home, yet they seem incapable or unwilling to at least carry through with those very things they themselves introduced.

I'm hoping they do mine Hotch's doubts and fears (surely he has them!) next season but I'm under no illusion they'll do it well.
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#37020

MarasCross

MarasCross

    Loyal Viewer

Posted Apr 27, 2012 @ 12:17 AM

D'you suppose the sea change in CM's storytelling format could be due to CBS wanting to appeal to more of the same audience that likes shows about killers, like Dexter or the new one in the UK, Appropriate Adult, whose lead was just nominated for a BAFTA? That the glorification of violence (and I don't mean just the gore factor) is something CBS, or maybe CM's writers themselves, think is needed to help get back their audience (which, as we can see from the ratings, is slipping a little more each week)?


Had to think about this one. CBS actually did run an edited version of Dexter on broadcast, which may tell us something about where their thinking lay, but I don't think it did too well after the initial curiosity wore off. Serial-killer-as-protagonist is a concept I'm not willing to dumb myself down for, and maybe others aren't either. No matter how many awards it wins, it's just an exercise in audience manipulation, because you can't escape the reality that serial killers are a uniquely repellent group of individuals.

The question is, though, whether CBS could dictate the format of CM to the degree we've seen and have all the writers cheerleading it. Judging by the degree of meta the show runner introduced into "JJ", I'd say no. I think we're seeing what we're seeing because the writers are true believers. I first started to worry when Simon Mirren began to compare CM to a thriller in Season 6. That's when the show started to turn from a detective story with slightly epic undertones to a more conventional and exploitative cop show. The gore factor crept up, sympathy with the victims ebbed, the subtle character moments dwindled, and we began to spend more and more time having our faces rubbed in the unsubs' dysfunctions. Erica Messer recently reinforced that point of view when she likened the show to telling campfire stories.

I don't know whether this is what they genuinely believe we see in the series, or it's just what they themselves see. What I do know is that I don't see viewers on the forums agreeing with the perspective.
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