115 replies to this topic

[eejm]

Cuddy shows us just how big her cajones are by standing up to Vogler and the board. She's also shown to be rather adept at chugging cheap champagne. (And who says we don't know much about Cuddy's backstory?) House and the team lose their third patient in a very sad storyline, complete with a haunting ending done to Grant Lee Buffalo's "Happiness."

Oh, and Vogler? Can you straighten up a bit before you leave? That's a dear.

[aquarian1]

I loved the opening dream sequence. And the "crazy, screwed up friendship." I really felt for both House and Wilson. Like the clinic couple and their baby, Olive. Liked House yelling at Volger about killing the pregnant patient by stopping the c-section. Liked House talking to her husband to help him make that hard decision. So much to like, despite being a Volger episode.

[Lizzim]

Liked House yelling at Volger about killing the pregnant patient by stopping the c-section.

That was House's angry voice, wasn't it? I remember thinking "I wonder if Hugh uses that voice with his kids when he catches them sneaking in after curfew." Ummm - American accent and all, probably not. But a scary angry tone nonetheless... He struck the same note in the Pilot, when Cuddy pulls his authorization to order tests, and in a later episode where Chase scans the wrong foot. He's not angry in every episode, but when he is...

And the "crazy, screwed up friendship."

This is one of my top five dramatic moments of the season. The whole thing... Wilson's voice breaking; House taking things out of the box as Wilson is putting them in (like a little kid there); just a really, really lovely scene.

And to give credit behind the scenes - the way that episode was edited was brilliant. There are so many moments where there is a strong sense of isolation and despair - Sean standing at the end of a long empty hallway as they take his wife to surgery. House sitting on the bench, staring at the floor.

Finally, that closing montage? The hauting melody of "Happiness" as we see each of the characters looking rode hard and put away wet? Wow. I'd forgotten how much watching this episode wiped me out!

[Britomart]

This is one of my top five dramatic moments of the season. The whole thing... Wilson's voice breaking; House taking things out of the box as Wilson is putting them in (like a little kid there); just a really, really lovely scene.

I couldn't agree with you more. Even if I tried really, really hard. I also loved that House still asked Wilson to look into possibilities for his patient at the end of that scene. And parallel to that, I loved the scene where he tracked down Cuddy before the board meeting to advocate for the vegan parents & their unfortunately-named daughter. That scene was so well done by both HL & LE.

And, highlighting the fact that his obsessive need to cure and advocate for his patients outweighs just about everything for House could have been awfully over the top in the hands of other writers and another actor. Instead that facet of House was much more delicately nuanced, absolutely believable & free of any scenery chewing.

I'm probably going to be tarred and feathered for this, but as much as the Vogler arc annoyed me at the time, the more I reflect on it, the more I think it was worth it for some of the scenes and character explorations it sparked. Hell, I could probably argue that the arc was worth it just for the scene Lizzim describes above. I also thought it gave significant insight into Cuddy -- fleshing her out as more than just a frustrated (by House) administrator & bantering genius.

Edited by Britomart, Jun 18, 2005 @ 1:20 PM.

[Lizzim]

I'm probably going to be tarred and feathered for this, but as much as the Vogler arc annoyed me at the time, the more I reflect on it, the more I think it was worth it for some of the scenes and character explorations it sparked.

You're not alone in that sentiment, Britomart - and I personally, couldn't wait for the Vogler arc to end. Someone else (deekay?, eejm?) said something similar in another thread. There was much to dislike about the Vogler arc, but it gave us many, many good things (the aforementioned "crazy, screwed up friendship" speech; the "jumbo sized coffin" dream sequence). Even when it's not at its best, this show rocks the house six ways from Sunday.

[deekay]

It hurts me to agree with the positive assessment of the Vogler arc, but I guess Love Hurts. I hated Vogler as a character, but when I look back on some of my most-loved scenes, I'm surprised to realize many came from that arc (the Wilson-House scene being way up there on my list). It even contains some episodes I loved - until I remember the Vogler parts and the gooey-eyed Cameron parts - and Babies and Bathwater was one. I think it was a good concept to bring in the House-threatening board chair who challenged his free reign in the hospital, and to shake up the relationships between the characters we love to reveal more about them. They just forgot to put some effort into the character of Vogler himself.

ETA: Lizzim beat me to it - yah, a couple of us discussed this to death on the Vogler thread.

Edited by deekay, Jun 18, 2005 @ 1:48 PM.

[eejm]

"Heeere pussy, pussy, pussy!" Even if it is evidence of Chase's weird personality morph with the Vogler arc, I absolutely adored his and Foreman's verbal sparring in this episode.

But I want to know who in the heck names their baby Olive in this day and age, even if they're a little granola-y?

[deekay]

The same kind of people who would name their kid Apple?

[Shelwood]

Right, these days they would spell it "Olyff". And pronounce it "Bob".

[Britomart]

Ah, I'm relieved I'm not alone. I don't think tar and feathers is a look that would really work for me. And I definitely don't have appropriate shoes for it.

yah, a couple of us discussed this to death on the Vogler thread.

See, I've never even gone into the Vogler thread given my former distaste for all things Vogler. Now that I've had this epiphany about the arc, though, I'll scamper over there & see what wise & interesting things y'all had to say.

[DarknessReigns]

My biggest quibble with the episode is we FINALLY get a LEGIT cancer case and Wilson, by voting to keep House, gets sacked himself, thus taking him right out of the picture/off the case (and most of the rest of the eppy), cept for the wonderful HL/RSL 'screwed-up friendship' scene.

If you think about it...Wilson had a bad day all around. First House didn't heed his warning about Vogler, saying he had Cuddy and Wilson, so he wasn't worried. Then the woman decided to go against his advice re delaying treatment to give her baby a better chance of survival. Then he goes right from there to the board meeting where he's the only one to vote to keep House and then gets booted himself. No wonder he was pissed when House came looking for him.

As with Maternity, I felt bad for everyone involved (minus Vogler) and this one stuck in my mind for quite a while afterward.

I too liked that House still asked for Wilson's help even after finding out he'd been sacked. And Wilson, being Wilson, wouldn't or couldn't refuse to give it either.

Edited by DarknessReigns, Jun 18, 2005 @ 4:09 PM.

[Elen]

I too liked that House still asked for Wilson's help even after finding out he'd been sacked.

And that look on House's face right as he asks for the study? He almost winces, like he knows it's totally inappropriate, but he has to do it. For the millionth time, the acting is incredible.

[mrsolive]

But I want to know who in the heck names their baby Olive in this day and age, even if they're a little granola-y?

This cracked me up!

I am not granola-y in the least, but I named my female basset hound, Olive. Does this make me dated? I love her name so much that I use it in the forums. The Mrs. refers to something a little boy asked me when I was walking her with my male basset, Hank (he asked if they were married, hence, MrsOlive).

Enough about me, I like this episode because I love that even though House is well aware of the consequences of his actions before he chooses to act, he does what he damned well pleases anyway. At times it is because he is thinking of others, but other times it seems to me that he is simply "testing" others to see how far he can go assuming that only he (House) will pay the price. On this occasion, however, he learned that others may pay a price for his actions (i.e. Wilson and Cuddy). House tries so hard to be disconnected from others, yet he isn't and it is fun for me to watch someone like House deal with this.

ETA Not at all, eejm! And, I agree, dogs are kinder at the kennel than kids on the playground.

Edited by mrsolive, Jun 18, 2005 @ 11:01 PM.

[eejm]

Hee - nope, pets don't count, mrsolive. I do apologize if I offended. For some reason, outdated names are endearing in pets, but not in humans. Maybe it's because pets won't get beat up at the kennel if they have an antiquated name. My own basset/border collie mix is named Vera. It's very cute on her, but would I name a daughter Vera if I had one? That's a resounding 'no'.

Edited by eejm, Jun 18, 2005 @ 6:38 PM.

[jophan]

But you never know ... ten years from now, Olive or Vera might be popular names again. When I was a kid (60's), a Hannah or an Emily would have been laughed out of school. Now they're everywhere. (And Olivia's in the top ten, if Olive isn't.)

Edited by jophan, Jun 18, 2005 @ 7:43 PM.

[RacerX]

This wasn't House's finest hour. When he said to Wilson that there was no need to worry about Vogler because he had Cuddy and Wilson on his side he ignored the fact that they would have to put themselves in the line of fire on his behalf. Even if we say that his ego drives him to think that choosing his position should be the right choice because he is right, he still must realize it is a position that has to be defended. Just because you are right doesn't mean other people will see it your way or that those who advocate on your behalf won't suffer penalties for their efforts.

A sincere "thank you" for both Cuddy and Wilson was sorely needed but markedly absent. I don't really buy that he thought he was "untouchable" because he popped a vicodin right after talking to Wilson.

House letting Cameron out of her contract for no good reason was another low point. If he doesn't think that Vogler can harm him, then why does he let Cameron leave? If he does think that Vogler can harm him then what kind of MDWuss is he to let his staff take the fall for him?

B&B was also good for increasing my Cameron appreciation. Before B&B I would say I could take or leave her, but going an episode with her nowhere to be seen, I realized just how important she is to the mix.

[deekay]

Just because you are right doesn't mean other people will see it your way or that those who advocate on your behalf won't suffer penalties for their efforts. 

I think that's a defining characteristic of House – he doesn't think about the broader consequences of his actions. He was completely stunned that Wilson's job ended up being sacrificed for him. He shouldn't have been - Wilson had been warning him about consequences since the beginning - but he was. And he wouldn't be the House we know and love if he said a simple thank you. Instead, he choked out “it matters” to Wilson, and called Cuddy “the man of the hour.” For him, that's practically gushing.

If he doesn't think that Vogler can harm him, then why does he let Cameron leave? If he does think that Vogler can harm him then what kind of MDWuss is he to let his staff take the fall for him?

But she chose to leave because of her personal feelings for him and his inability to reciprocate, not because she was taking the fall for him. Even if he could force her to stay while forcing another duckling to leave, making her work out her contract when she doesn't want to work for him because it's too painful would be highly cruel.

Still, you're absolutely right - not House's finest hour. But that's what I loved about the episode: it showed his weaknesses and him at his most vulnerable. I think we need an injection of that sometimes when he's playing Doctor Superhero.

[RacerX]

But she chose to leave because of her personal feelings for him and his inability to reciprocate, not because she was taking the fall for him. Even if he could force her to stay while forcing another duckling to leave, making her work out her contract when she doesn't want to work for him because it's too painful would be highly cruel.

I was always hoping that we would get a definitive statement about why she left, how and when she did. But we never did. This is probably better left for the Cameron thread, now that there is a Cameron thread, but I was really hoping that when she reappeared, Cameron would explain just what she was thinking.

And yeah, I definitely don't want House to be the type of guy who would handle these problems well. The guy needs these major failings in order to be as appealing as he is (at least to me).

[deekay]

Oh, and I just realized it was in Role Model that she says she's leaving to protect herself. Maybe we are talking about this in the wrong thread! It's funny, I didn't miss her in Babies and Bathwater, because I thought the episode was strong anyway, but I did miss her in Kids, where she actually made a couple of little appearances, because it was a weaker episode to me.

[erendis]

Personally, I liked this episode despite the absence of Cameron, even though the pregnancy storyline strongly reminded me of that old episode of ER with Bradley Whitford.

Anyone else notice how House doesn't limp in the dream sequence, as he walks over to comfort Vogler? I love the attention to detail on this show!

[MsJ]

My guess is that House had been through 3 management changes and didn't think he, or Wilson and CUddy, for that matter, could be gotten rid of. The problem was that he had just never run into someone like Vogler--who was more interested in what the noted doctors on the hospital staff could do for his drug company than whether they were healing impossible cases on a regular basis. And in Vogler's company, he was used to total allegience, so when he didn't get it from House, he decided to enforce it.

I don't really know that much about hospitals and how they are run, but I get the distinct impression that it is very difficult and hardly ever done to get rid of doctors who have tenure. I also get the impression that doctors hardly ever "testify" against each other, even when the person being investigated has been guilty of incompetence. I say this mainly because whenever a doctor who has been grossly incompetent is on the news, they usually say that patients had been complaining for years but that nothing had ever been done about it by the state medical board. Not that House would ever have been seen as incompetent, but he seemed to have left quite a few bent and broken rules lying around. So House was expecting what had always happened before (when he resisted and won, probably by exhausting his enemies), and instead he got Vogler, who did not give up easily. In fact, I sometimes wonder if we've seen the last of Vogler. The very thought gives me nightmares.

O/T: Erendis, your name sounds familiar. Have you ever hung out over at Khazaddum.com?

Edited by MsJ, Aug 6, 2005 @ 10:44 PM.

[Euphony]

It's funny, because I've always thought this episode is some of House at his best. I guess technically he does come off as bad in the way he doesn't seem to think about the consequence to Wilson and Cuddy, but his interaction with the patients in this episode is particularly good. Especially when he insists on being the one to talk to the father. This episode didn't so much give me the impression of House as selfish as much as House as literally unable to compromise, especially where patients are concerned. He just has to do what he does, and I don't even know if he has accepted why--namely, that he cares about his patients. He cares about what's right for them, even if he doesn't care about them on a personal level. And that makes me very sympathetic to him. He can't push a product he knows is just trying to squeeze patients out of extra crash. He can't let healing people become just a business. He can't be anything but a good doctor, even when that means that he can't be a good friend. It's a weird combination of sad, frustrating, and noble, which I tend to think is why everyone sticks by him.

[Lizzim]

I don't really know that much about hospitals and how they are run, but I get the distinct impression that it is very difficult and hardly ever done to get rid of doctors who have tenure. I also get the impression that doctors hardly ever "testify" against each other, even when the person being investigated has been guilty of incompetence.

Tenure is only an issue in hospitals that are affiliated with universities, and it works the same way that tenure works for professors and other academics. Once you have it, it's nearly impossible to lose it. In non-university affiliated hospitals, there is no such thing as tenure, but there is a general reluctance to let physician's go, unless there's gross incompetence. For a physician, I would imagine that it's easier for him/her to lose his/her license to practice medicine (which is administered by a state licensing board) than it would be to lose tenure.

It's correct that physicians have been very reluctant in the past to police one another. A few months back I posted on this very subject in the ethics thread, sparked by the discovery that an eye doctors who did surgery on my eyes had longstanding issues with alcoholism and mental illness. There were numerous reported incidences of this doctor performing surgery while intoxicated, and other inappropriate and dangerous behavior. There were many patient complaints before an investigation began, and many more before this physician's license was suspended (and it still hasn't been revoked entirely). There are a lot of theories about why the physician culture is this way - fear of reprisal, old fashioned belief in the infallability of physicians, and perhaps most of all, a healthy sense of "there but for the grace of God" i.e. - no physician is incapable of making a mistake, so there's a desire to not end a career over human error.

In fact, I sometimes wonder if we've seen the last of Vogler. The very thought gives me nightmares.

Ack! That is a horrible thought...

[deekay]

It's funny, because I've always thought this episode is some of House at his best. ... He can't be anything but a good doctor, even when that means that he can't be a good friend. It's a weird combination of sad, frustrating, and noble, which I tend to think is why everyone sticks by him.

I think you're exactly right, Euphony. What I like about this episode is that it shows his professional strength and his personal weakness, which are basically two sides of the same coin - he couldn't have his strength without that weakness (echoes of John Henry Giles' speech to him in DNR). Even though he hurt people he cares about in this episode, I really felt for him, because it also showed how aware he is of the personal sacrifice he's made to be the kind of doctor he is.

There are a lot of theories about why the physician culture is this way - fear of reprisal, old fashioned belief in the infallability of physicians, and perhaps most of all, a healthy sense of "there but for the grace of God"

I'd add the fear that admitting fallability means losing power. Physicians here do police themselves, but they're not quick to pull a licence, it's done confidentially, and patients don't have access to information that didn't go to court and lead to a judgement. With House, it's hard to call him incompetent (in the House world, at least, where his methods work) and he did have confidence that tenure made him safe, so his recklessness with those people he cared about wasn't caused by not giving a damn what happened to them, it was not fully realizing what might happen and in retrospect, realizing that he couldn't act any other way anyway.

In fact, I sometimes wonder if we've seen the last of Vogler. The very thought gives me nightmares.

Noooo, don't even say this! I can't see them bringing him back, not just because my powers of denial are impressive when it comes to things I don't want to see, but because it was resolved quite definitively. I think.

Edited by deekay, Aug 7, 2005 @ 1:07 PM.

[freebie]

it was not fully realizing what might happen and in retrospect, realizing that he couldn't act any other way anyway

I completely agree that House couldn't have done anything but make the speech he made. However, I can't believe that, at the time he decided to dump the safe speech and go for broke, he didn't have a full realization that something bad was going to happen -- definitely to either Cameron or Foreman, and maybe to himself, as well. The only thing that really seemed to blindside him was the attack on Wilson.

House seemed to realize *he* was in peril based on his behavior at the beginning of this episode when he was doing everything he could to stay out of Vogler's way, so it doesn't take much to conclude that he also recognized the effect of his actions on the team, who were in more immediate danger. He definitely glossed over the whole Cameron quitting thing in front of Foreman and Chase, so it seemed to me that he was aware that he'd brought that about (even if Foreman and Chase didn't have the full story about what exactly drove her to quit). And Foreman certainly seemed to agree that House was responsible for the whole mess because of the speech. Didn't he initially conclude that House had fired Cameron?

So, even though House had to make that speech, to me that doesn't absolve him of the negative consequences of making it. He might care what happens to the people around him up to a point, but his level of caring has unfortunate limits that will necessarily limit his personal relationships. Definitely sad and frustrating for him and anyone in his life.

[deekay]

However, I can't believe that, at the time he decided to dump the safe speech and go for broke, he didn't have a full realization that something bad was going to happen

I was talking about Babies and Bathwater, though - this isn't the episode where he doesn't make the speech and Cameron quits. It's the one after she has quit, so Vogler is not insisting on him getting rid of a team member anymore. House won't apologize or offer his resignation, so Vogler's powerplay is less about controlling him and more about getting rid of him. House knows he's in danger, but doesn't seem to realize Wilson and Cuddy would be putting their jobs on the line to protect him.

[freebie]

I was talking about Babies and Bathwater, though

I assumed you were doing what I was doing, talking about the aftermath of the speech. That seemed to be the main focus of this episode, particularly with respect to both Cameron's absence and Vogler's next move, using the board to simply get rid of House by first getting rid of Wilson. It was the non-speech that precipitated all of the action in this episode, so even if it didn't happen here, the fallout certainly did. This is also the episode with Wilson's dialogue about House not being able to make a different speech, which is partly why I thought you were talking *about* the speech. Anyway, I'm not sure what you mean, then, by House not fully realizing what might happen. As a result of what? What actions did he take in this episode that fall into the category of him not being able to act any other way? Do you just mean him not apologizing or offering to resign? It seemed to me like the damage was already done before the credits even rolled, so none of that really mattered. Would Vogler really have been OK with a public apology? I think he would have gone after House no matter what.

Edited to say that I've sort of answered my own question, as I recall that the first board vote was scheduled for the same day Vogler issued his ultimatum, so even if he gave House until the next morning (I think?) to hand in his resignation, Vogler was already moving forward to get rid of him. I guess for someone like Vogler, asking for the apology/resignation was more of a formality.

Edited by freebie, Aug 7, 2005 @ 3:54 PM.

[deekay]

It was the non-speech that precipitated all of the action in this episode, so even if it didn't happen here, the fallout certainly did.

Sure, except the fallout was related to Wilson and Cuddy, not Cameron and Foreman. That fallout had already happened in a previous episode. That's what I was clarifying - that the "people he cares about" I was referring to are not the ducklings in this instance.

Anyway, I'm not sure what you mean, then, by House not fully realizing what might happen. As a result of what? What actions did he take in this episode that fall into the category of him not being able to act any other way?

As I said in my post above, as a result of not apologizing or offering his resignation. He never really did answer Wilson seriously in Heavy, when he asked why he didn't offer himself up as Vogler's sacrifice. I can only speculate as to why (besides the fact that we wouldn't have a show if he up and quit). I know why he wouldn't apologize - that's what he simply couldn't do differently, and I admire him for it.

Would Vogler really have been OK with a public apology? I think he would have gone after House no matter what.

I agree - but I also think that from Control, Vogler was going after House no matter what. That's why I think the Vogler arc was so badly written. He didn't need the 5 episodes to go to the board and say "House, or my millions." The drama was gratuitous. The sacrificial duckling, the speech, the apology - none of it was going to be OK with Vogler. But while we knew that, the characters presumably didn't until the end. Even after his confrontation with Vogler in B&B, he claimed to be untouchable because he had Wilson and Cuddy on his side.

Edited by deekay, Aug 7, 2005 @ 4:03 PM.

[freebie]

I was editing while you were posting, so you might not have seen the stuff I added about the timing of the board meeting. Anyway, I agree that House couldn't apologize, partly because he didn't feel he had anything to apologize to *Vogler* for and partly because he knew it wouldn't make any difference if he did. Before he even got a chance to think about it, Vogler was already getting rid of Wilson and moving in for the kill on House. And all that time, House was still sure his tenure would protect him.

That's why I'm not sure I can admire him for not apologizing. I can agree with it, mostly because it would have been completely fruitless, but not because it was noble. And, anyway, moot point, as he never had the chance to follow through on Vogler's instructions. As for the fallout being related mostly to Wilson and Cuddy, within the narrow confines of this episode, sure, particularly the Wilson fallout. He was totally the innocent bystander here, wearing a target simply because he was House's friend. Cuddy, on the other hand, made her own bed (or rather made a nice big bed for Vogler and then got right in there with him), so I see House as less responsible for anything negative that might happen to her.

By the end of the episode, it seemed like anything bad that happened to Cuddy occurred as the result of her own decision-making process (and as a result of Vogler's shenanigans). House's lack of apology/resignation wouldn't have hurt her, particularly if she'd just voted with the board to keep the millions in exchange for House. I'm still not sure about the Cuddy character and how much of her connection with House is based on actual friendship. Some days, she seems to barely tolerate him, and she was certainly ready to latch onto Vogler's money even if it meant making life difficult for House. It's a puzzle.

[deekay]

I think we sort of agree, then, freebie, now that we're clear what the other is saying. I do think that House's reasons for not giving the speech were noble, so therefore not apologizing for it is noble, but I see the other side of the argument, too, and that's a discussion for another thread anyway (and one I think we've probably done to death anyway. Is it season 2 yet?).

I was only looking at this from House's point of view, too - I think he felt badly that he put Cuddy in a difficult position. But I don't know that Cuddy deserves much sympathy for it. She certainly thinks that if he'd tried to suck up to Vogler, they could have kept his millions and House too. But I've never liked that last little speech she gave in this episode, because it's just not realistic. House was only Vogler's first target - everyone but Cuddy seemed to realize that in the end, it wasn't House versus Vogler, it was Vogler versus a functional hospital. But I can't blame my beloved Cuddy, I blame the bad Vogler arc writing for trying to milk the drama.

I don't think the House-Cuddy connection is based on friendship, exactly, but I think she truly likes and admires him. I think she just wishes she weren't his boss, so she didn't have to clean up after him!