89 replies to this topic

[manic]

Well, between the ones in bed and the Clinic, the world is full of twits that lie to House.

[Britomart]

My favorite clinic patient? The elderly, syphilitic poetess. Loved. Her.

Not only was she a quirky, amusing character (helped immensely by being portrayed by a wonderful actress), but her plotline also gave us all sorts o' House characterization. One the most obvious level, so much humor! House's refusal to suffer her insufferable son, his reaction to her comparison of him and Aston Kutcher. The line: "I'm too handsome for paperwork!" And Wilson's recitation of her poem? Comic platinum.

But the best thing about it -- one of the first looks of House's compassion and sensitivity in how he handled her attempt to refuse the cure. I melted. Into a puddle. Yet, it was still subtle, and not out of character. (We should start a thread for starry-eyed crushes on the writers, now that I think of it.)

I would stop watching the show in horror & disgust if they ever started trying to sell House as a sensitive and compassionate fellow. But if they'll continue to give us brief, yet powerful, glimpses into his character,and that side of him, like this, I'll be devoted to the very end.

[Harrison Fjord]

I thought Peter Graves and his mistress were my favorites, especially when House realizes they're not married to each other.

"My ob-gyn died recently. Nice man. Warm hands." "Not anymore."

Like the syphillitic poetess, a very squicky subject handled with aplomb and humor, and highlighting the sensitivity AND the snark.

[TheAngleMan]

Are we lumping all the patients, i.e. the mystery disease sufferers and the clinic patients all together? I suppose a lot of the guest patients will be covered in the episode threads.

[Examorata]

But the best thing about it -- one of the first looks of House's compassion and sensitivity in how he handled her attempt to refuse the cure.

Oh, Britomart, you are so right on the money on this one. Between House's humanity with Mrs. Syphilis, AND the poem (who could forget the poem!?), this is definitely one of the best side-plot patients so far.

I also want to take a moment to do the shout-out for my favorite guest star this season, Cynthia Ettinger as the mom in "Heavy." A hard episode to watch, especially for Chase fans, but I thought she was spot-on perfect. Plus I love her and want to be her when I grow up. (Yes, I am 33, why do you ask?)

[Rinaldo]

It's early days for me, as I've seen only 4 episodes so far, but out of those my favorite guest to the hospital is actually a patient's father -- Mark Harelik in "Detox." He seems to be everywhere these days (was in the Six Feet Under season opener, and he's currently in the cast of the gorgeous Light in the Piazza on Broadway), and a good thing too. He's always memorable and riveting.

[mujer]

I'm voting for the pregnant (though she didn't know it, had a fling, then not knowing who the father is) young woman from "Maternity" as my favorite "lying patient." ("The most successful relationships are based on lies. You're off to a great start.") Well, so far she is; I still need to catch up on some episodes. But it's close race -- the dude who told House "do her or your gay" holds a special place in my heart, too.

Edited by mujer, Jun 15, 2005 @ 4:34 PM.

[eejm]

Not counting hospital patients, I'd say my favorite clinic patient is either the pregnant woman from Maternity or the MP3 player guy from Occam's Razor. The look he gave House when House told him that he had to kiss Cuddy's ass to get out of clinic duty? Priceless. The "Are you kidding me?" look House gives to him when the MP3 player turns out to be the culprit? Hilarious.

Hey, maybe we should start a favorite clinic patient poll...

[Meems]

"Do 'er or you're gay" guy is my favorite clinic patient. No contest. He had such a great repoire with both House and Wilson, he was funny, and he was kind of cute. Impressive, especially considering the fact that I noticed the aforementioned humor and cuteness while he was sharing the screen with RSL and HL, charismatic, scene-stealing hotties that they are.

Runners-up include: Pregnant "Maternity" Lady, Elderly Syphillitic Poetess, Brilliant Kitty Figurine Saving baby, and Slaps Himself On Command Hiccuping Guy.

Edited by Meems, Jun 17, 2005 @ 3:29 PM.

[eejm]

Oh man, Meems, you reminded me of so many I'd forgotten! I loved the baby who "sent in teams to save the cat"! I only got to see Love Hurts once because my TiFaux ate it (grrr), but I did love "do her or you're gay" guy. I wonder what he came into the clinic for anyway?

[Countbeans]

I did love "do her or you're gay" guy. I wonder what he came into the clinic for anyway?

To watch the baseball game.

[labyrinth]

Meems, you beat me to the rescue squad baby! I'd like to add the fake-blind student who was the last in the 'speed diagnosis' scene. Because he yanked House's chain...and because Cuddy was amused that he yanked House's chain.

[Elen]

I really liked the clinic patient from 'Fidelity'. Has anyone mentioned her yet? Her facial expression when she explains about the rash on her butt? Priceless.

[Lizzim]

Do 'er or you're gay" guy is my favorite clinic patient. No contest.

I did love "do her or you're gay" guy. I wonder what he came into the clinic for anyway?

He's my favorite, hands down. In fact, that's definitely in my top five favorite comedic scenes of the season list. BTW - he came in for an employee physical, after which, House notes, both the patient and House have to go back to work.

Oh - and I'm not sure if this counts or not, but a close runner up is (God, I can't believe I'm about to type this)... Carmen Electra. I think she was a good sport about it all and HL just looked like he was having a great time with it. His facial expressions alone were fabulous and he got to say things like "she's here to play out my fantasy, not because she's Meryl Streep" and "Baywatch Thespian" and "if we have to look at a leg..."

Edited by Lizzim, Jun 17, 2005 @ 3:51 PM.

[Meems]

Oh yeah, Carmen Electra is definitely my favorite imaginary clinic patient. For all the reasons Lizzim listed above. And the pretty, pretty blue eyes, which matched so nicely with HL's. (And I can't swear to it, but I seem to recall reading somewhere that she and Dave Navarro are big fans of the show, so that just makes me like her even more.)

[RacerX]

I thought Peter Graves and his mistress were my favorites, especially when House realizes they're not married to each other.

Ramona is definitely one of my faves. "Close your legs" and that look exchanged between House and the nurse when Ramona said having to compete with women who put out was worse than in high school never fail to amuse me.

Although technically not real, I loved the guy who played House in Three Stories. When he comes back and says it hurts again there something about the way he looks at House that always gets me. Maybe he can come back again, whether or not as a figment of House's imagination or in the flesh.

[eyeroller]

(And I can't swear to it, but I seem to recall reading somewhere that she and Dave Navarro are big fans of the show, so that just makes me like her even more.)

They're still married? So happy for Carmen that it's lasted longer than her liaison with Dennis Rodman.

Anyway, I loved the baby and crunchy-granola mom with the all natural frog in Paternity. The way that kid reacted to House was beautiful. Perfect snark fodder, and it turned out to be the key to lacrosse kid's troubles.

[Britomart]

Brought this over from a discussion in the Sticky Wicket thread since it addresses personal, not medical issues. In this article, David Shore was quoted as saying:

The diagnosis always has to do with the flaws and foibles of the person House is treating.

So, this got me to thinking about the patient in Mob Rules. The fundamental dishonesty of his life was the key factor in his diagnosis. (Please understand, though, that I’m not arguing that lying about his homosexuality while a member of the mafia was unethical. It was eminently sane and necessary, I’m sure.) And, though I’m hard-pressed to argue that testifying against the mafia could be unethical, can we categorize his motivation as unethical? Self-preservation is particularly interesting, I think, because it’s a common motivating factor that can easily be either ethical or unethical. What do all of y'all think?

[deekay]

You picked a tricky case, Britomart. The mobster had so many different things wrong with him: Hep C, early emphysema, maybe too many Chinese stop-smoking herb thingies, estrogen, and the don't-eat-too-much-protein disease. I've probably forgotten a few and gotten a couple wrong. They knew about the Hep C from tests, but it wasn't enough to cause his symptoms. The final key - I think - was the estrogen and protein, but it was all so complicated that I'm not sure I can find it in me to say his non-disclosure or motivation was important. Even if he'd said he was gay, the link between being gay and taking estrogen is pretty obscure, and the connection between that and the protein disease is even more obscure.

[Britomart]

Even if he'd said he was gay, the link between being gay and taking estrogen is pretty obscure, and the connection between that and the protein disease is even more obscure.

::sigh:: Don't you hate it when pesky details you'd forgotten rear their ugly heads to torpedo an argument? You're absolutely right, deekay. I'd forgotten a lot of that & knowing he was gay wouldn't have helped at all with the diagnosis.

So, the worst that can be said of him is that he put his brother in a tough spot by not being more forthcoming, but that has nothing to do with personal ethics in my book, and I think it was absolutely his call whether or not he told *anyone*. No ethical discussion here...

[deekay]

In your defence, there was a lot to forget. I loved this episode, but it's one where I enjoyed the mystery only by shutting my brain off - not necessarily because it didn't make sense (I wouldn't know if it does or not) but because my poor brain hurt too much trying to figure out the twists and turns.

The nun might be a better example for your attempt ... though we might be getting a much closer look at Dante's inferno if we try to call her unethical. She lied about her life before the convent, as did her Mother Superior, but they didn't think it was relevant. And neither did House when he first heard about it, though it ended up being the key to that diagnosis.

ETA: You weren't completely wrong about mobster guy's deception though - his being gay was one of the keys in that case. It was just an example of a case where there was more than one key, and knowing only that piece of information wouldn't have solved the puzzle.

Edited by deekay, Jul 4, 2005 @ 11:14 PM.

[Lizzim]

Even if he'd said he was gay, the link between being gay and taking estrogen is pretty obscure, and the connection between that and the protein disease is even more obscure.

I think that the sick Arnello brother should have disclosed the full range of medications (herbal and not) that he was taking... the fact that he was gay wasn't relevant to his case, but the fact that he was taking an "herbal supplement" marketed to gay men was. What stopped him from disclosing this was that it would have outed him, which he clearly didn't want to do.

I don't necessarily think that his motivation (wanting to remain closeted) was necessarily unethical... sad, perhaps, but not unethical, particularly since I don't think it occurred to him that the herbs he was taking had any possibility of being related to his illness.

[deekay]

I think that the sick Arnello brother should have disclosed the full range of medications (herbal and not) that he was taking...I don't think it occurred to him that the herbs he was taking had any possibility of being related to his illness.

Britomart's point (on the sticky wicket thread, I think) rings true for me here - sometimes patients just aren't equipped to know what's relevant or understand the consequences, and maybe shouldn't be held responsible for lack of disclosure, because they don't know what they're supposed to disclose. I wonder if he was asked specifically about herbal stuff ... many people don't think of that as medication. Same with the nun - she didn't think her birth control or abortion was relevant, and had no way of knowing it was. So I probably wouldn't relate it to their ethics.

[Britomart]

sometimes patients just aren't equipped to know what's relevant or understand the consequences, and maybe shouldn't be held responsible for lack of disclosure, because they don't know what they're supposed to disclose

Yep, the more I think about this, the more I'm brought back to intent. I think that in order to judge the ethics of a patient, at a personal or medical level, you have to understand their intent. With the nun & the mobster, I think you're both right in thinking they didn't have any idea that what they were hiding could have anything to do with their current illness & treatment.

I think a patient has to be deliberately deceiving their doctor/the medical community, knowing what they're lying about might be a factor. Which brings us back to Elise & Carly. I just thought of him, and you know who might be the most clear-cut example of this? The diabetic who was lying about his condition and medication to score Viagra.

[Lizzim]

The diabetic who was lying about his condition and medication to score Viagra.

He was an idiot. It was both stupid and unethical for him to lie to score Viagra - stupid because it could kill him; unethical because he was placing his physician (in this case, House) at risk for losing his license and living with the repercussions of killing a patient (or at a minimum, House would have to defent himself against the inevitable lawsuit). I can understand that, for the sake of a funny punchline, House would prescribe the Viagra anyway, but from a realistic perspective, it was a ridiculous thing to do.

[aquarian1]

The new House Survivor is up and running. This time it's all about the patients. It's called Patients' Paradise. Check it out! Maybe it will spark more conversation here too.

[Nomad]

Chiming in on this discussion rather late...

The diagnosis always has to do with the flaws and foibles of the person House is treating.

I think that the sick Arnello brother should have disclosed the full range of medications (herbal and not) that he was taking... the fact that he was gay wasn't relevant to his case, but the fact that he was taking an "herbal supplement" marketed to gay men was.

sometimes patients just aren't equipped to know what's relevant or understand the consequences, and maybe shouldn't be held responsible for lack of disclosure, because they don't know what they're supposed to disclose.

I think it's not so much about what the patients believe is or isn't relevant as the things they convince themselves aren't relevant because they don't want to reveal them. It's not neutral details that they leave out, but rather information that says something about the patient and their lifestyle or history. They don't want to reveal it, so they take on a decision that should belong to the medical staff, and reject the uncomfortable things as irrelevant when they're not truly qualified to know if they are or aren't.

I think the underlying theme is probably lack of trust in the doctors to do their job: the patients worry about the moral judgement that might be made, so they don't give all the information for the correct medical judgement to be made. Not quite "everybody lies", but "everybody selectively edits the truth to make themselves more comfortable".

And it's a motif that comes up a lot. The parents in Paternity decided for themselves that the fact their son was adopted shouldn't matter, so they didn't give that information. The nuns didn't believe a sister should be judged for how she lived before, so they didn't give House enough details to look at that period for medical clues. The mobster's herbal supplement wasn't mentioned as a possible cause because it could lead to him being outed. (I'm sure there are more examples, but I'm still catching up on episodes.)

It's about the patients investing more in keeping up their self image in front of the doctor than in actually allowing the doctor to treat them. And when it's taken to extremes, you get cases like the woman in Fidelity who would have died rather than admit to her affair and be cured.

[Jeni]

You know, we haven't seen many out-and-out lies. Just...omissions. Exactly how are these patient histories being collected? How is the patient supposed to know what's important and what's not?

I've been to the doctor before where I tried to give all the info I knew, and they didn't want to hear it, b/c they were in a hurry and thought I was wasting their time. And I've also given the exact same info to seven different doctors and a bunch of nurses, all of whom (?) seemed to be using the same checklist.

So are the patients really lying everytime, or is Cameron not asking the difficult questions to make it easier on them?

[Lizzim]

So are the patients really lying everytime, or is Cameron not asking the difficult questions to make it easier on them?

It's not always Cameron - all of the ducklings take histories. Since the patients are always admitted with a mysterious malady, my guess is the ducklings ask a lot of questions and listen carefully to everything since they don't have a diagnosis in mind already and don't know (or think they know) what might be important later.

I think it's not so much about what the patients believe is or isn't relevant as the things they convince themselves aren't relevant because they don't want to reveal them. It's not neutral details that they leave out, but rather information that says something about the patient and their lifestyle or history.

Interesting thought, nomad - particularly since many of us on the forums find House to be a pretty non-judgemental guy. Ironic then that patients are concealing these things from one of the only people who probably wouldn't hold their foibles against them...

[deekay]

Ironic then that patients are concealing these things from one of the only people who probably wouldn't hold their foibles against them...

I think that's exactly what David Shore was getting at in that flaws and foibles quote - that House's real job is to find out what the patient is lying about (or omitting from the truth). The cases don't come to him if a simple test can diagnose it, so when he's not using trial and error to learn something new, he's sort of diagnosing the person, not the illness.