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Logan and Veronica: "What Are We Doing?" "I Have No Idea."


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#1

arabian

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Posted Apr 14, 2005 @ 12:31 PM

The wonderful Couch Baron gave me the go-ahead to start a LoVe thread ... so here we go! Have fun.

Edited by arabian, Apr 14, 2005 @ 12:31 PM.


#2

Tell Me A Story

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Posted Apr 14, 2005 @ 12:45 PM

I have yet to officially squee, because I wasn't sure if it was just shock, but as I'm still internally squeeing now, nearly two days after the fact, without reviewing...

SQUEE!! Thank you.

Also, best.thread.title.EVER.

#3

Feisty

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Posted Apr 15, 2005 @ 11:13 PM

Yep. Squee. LoVe. Woo Hoo!

#4

bluedahlia

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Posted Apr 16, 2005 @ 1:05 AM

I have nothing profound to add except, Right now these two just make me endlessly Swoon, I still get butterflies rewatching the Camelot Scene. But what I really love about LoVe is the witty snark+ swoon factor+ great chemistry and acting all around.
Game, Set, Match as far as I'm concerned.

#5

meggygurl

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Posted Apr 16, 2005 @ 5:07 AM

Okay. I'm new here. And yes, this was the first thread I looked for.

I, screamed. And jumped up and down. And scared my roommates.

It was the kiss I have been looking forward too the most since Pacey kissed Joey on the side of the road on Dawson's Creek.

Which... is where my ultimate love for Veronica/Logan comes from. They have this intense, hate/love relationship, and the on screen chemistry is just... THERE. Which isn't always easy to find between two actors. (SMG and MB from Buffy anyone? Why were we suppose to care about the two of them again?) I had hoped it was coming, and it made perfect sense when it did. And I will admit, I DL'd that clip, and I have watched it like.... 30 times since I got it Wednesday night. I thing it was insanely well done, with just the bare amout of dialoge. "Are you okay?" "Yeah." And that's all you get for hte next 2 minutes. But the facial expression on Logan after Veronica kisses him is classic. You just know everything he's thinking. And Veronica has this "OMG, what am I doing, that was so silly of me." look until he grabs her back. And then at the end of it, when they both kinda jump back, like they were shocked. And to me, Veronica's just leaving made perfect sense. And they way they looked at each other afterwords... it was just... excellent.

Very well done, acting and writing wise.

And a massive fangirl moment for me. "__"


ETA: In case you were interested... I made a Veronica/Logan vid that has clips form up too Weapons of Class Distruction. It's only there for 7 days, so.. hee.

http://s42.yousendit...EA0RMSJJFLHFEVT

Edited by meggygurl, Apr 16, 2005 @ 5:13 AM.


#6

Couch Baron

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Posted Apr 16, 2005 @ 8:03 AM

I changed the topic title to make it more balanced, because I don't want people who hate this pairing to feel their opinions are unwelcome.

#7

InigoMontoya

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Posted Apr 16, 2005 @ 8:17 AM

There are people who hate this pairing? You shock me.

I am up for any pairing, or parting, that gives the boy more screen time.

#8

Foamy the Girl

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Posted Apr 16, 2005 @ 8:20 AM

I'm really not that into their pairing. I think Jason is a great actor but I also think that the rest of the cast is good too. I'm more excitied about getting into the rest of the characters' lives. I'm one of those sick people who needs to know everything about everyone.

#9

KeyserSoze

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Posted Apr 16, 2005 @ 8:23 AM

Bringing this over from the WOCD thread:

But as someone from another board said to me, if Rob goes with the whole Veronica/Logan storyline to pay fanservice this show will quickly go downhill.



I have a problem with this kind of mindset. It doesn't take into consideration that the reason people like the relationship could be because it's slowly been set up to be this way since the beginning of the season. The writers certainly didn't care about what fans would feel when they teased Veronica's first love as a blood relative. They did it to service the story they were trying to tell. They're doing what they want. I think they're glad what they're doing is working and that a lot of fans are enjoying it, but to imply that they've created a relationship soley based on what fans were supposedly clamoring for is selling the writers' intelligence short, big time.

You have to consider the broader implications of these two getting together and what it is going to mean for the rest of the season, for themselves and for the other characters. So far, I think the writers have certainly earned the benefit of the doubt when it comes to things like this.

#10

ostentatious

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Posted Apr 16, 2005 @ 9:21 AM

Well well, lookie here! A nice place to set up camp! (drops her knapsack and settles in for the duration)

It doesn't take into consideration that the reason people like the relationship could be because it's slowly been set up to be this way since the beginning of the season.

I can certainly understand not liking the pairing - well, understand that the opinion exists even if I can't understand the opinion itself =) - but dude, this hookup was not yanked out of anybody's ass in response to online fan response to Logan or to the idea of the pairing. You can download any of the L/V fan music vids and watch the progression play out for you in 3-5 minutes, from the very first ep. The only other character with whom Veronica has had even close to as many scenes is Keith, and all of the L/V scenes have been intense in some way; there really are no light L/V scenes. If you mapped out the first season on a piece of paper you'd see that Veronica's most important - most attended to, most *written* by the writers - connections are Keith, Logan, and Wallace, in that order.

Sure, there are shows in which romances "took over" at some point and in which that felt weird because the show structure had to change to accommodate the romance focus. It's a lot easier to write lurve stories than plan out 22 intricate mystery eps after all, you can rely on the charm and chemistry of your actors to a large extent writing romantic relationships. Certainly VM would have to change its very structure to become the Veronica and Logan Show. But just because a few shows have notoriously (and arguably, let's not forget everyone everywhere doesn't view stuff the same way) changed the nature of the show itself to a focus on a pairing/coupling in general says nothing about this show. Nothing at all. No one associated with this show can be traced to prior tendencies toward that sort of thing. Just because it *has* happened doesn't mean it *has to* happen.

Not that I'd mind watching the Logan and Veronica show. I'd prefer the Logan and Veronica and Lilly show but that's just me. =) Anyway. Two things interest me right now. First, I cannot wait to see Duncan's reaction to this because he so has to find out. I'm almost more interested in see what Duncan does than I am in L/V themselves right this sec! Heh. Second, I wonder if there's not something Lilly-centered in Veronica's interest in Logan right now. That Logan is responding to the more Lilly-esque Veronica has been discussed, but I keep thinking about the Homecoming ep and wondering if Veronica maybe subconsciously sees Logan...another red dress. You know? I had deeper thoughts about this in the middle of the night but there's no coffee in the house this morning so I can't catch 'em. =)

Edited by ostentatious, Apr 16, 2005 @ 9:37 AM.


#11

KeyserSoze

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Posted Apr 16, 2005 @ 9:25 AM

But why, just because a few shows have notoriously (and arguably, let's not forget everyone everywhere doesn't view stuff the same way) changed the nature of the show itself to a focus on a pairing/coupling in general says nothing about this show. Nothing at all. No one associated with this show can be traced to prior tendencies toward that sort of thing. Just because it *has* happened doesn't mean it *has to* happen.



I'll toss you a "word" and raise you an "amen" for that one.

#12

deimos

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Posted Apr 16, 2005 @ 9:37 AM

I'm not squeeing over Veronica and Logan, but I'm willing to trust the show to do this right and not go overboard with the fanservice. Logan's a fucked-up kid, Veronica's got a major chip on her shoulder -- that's the foundation of many a high-school relationship (or it was for me anyway), but not something that's going to lead them to live happily ever after. But like I said, I trust TPTB not to turn this into flowers and puppies, or gross sex behind dumpsters, for that matter.

#13

wittyname

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Posted Apr 16, 2005 @ 10:16 AM

Another SQUEE!!!er checking in.

I think my squee was so high I scared the neighbor's dog!!!

#14

Maka

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Posted Apr 16, 2005 @ 10:51 AM

Hehe, I'm certainly on board. I didn't exactly squee though, it was more like a goofy giggle. And I hardly ever giggle. I'm more of a guffaw or a robust chuckle type of girl. But I indeed giggled. hehe. There I go again!

What's even better is, I recently got my best friend hooked on the show, (he had just caught up with all the epis through d/ling) and just after The Kiss, I got a text message from him that said, in total: "OMG! OMG! Just got to the Logan/Veronica part. OMG!" And he certainly isn't normally the OMG! type.

So, now that a pair that I actually like seems headed for couplehood, I'm nervous. The couples I usually like end up running aground- Felicity/Noel (sniffle), Adam/Joan (phfft), Oz/Willow (sob!) So I'm going to try and not get too attached...oh who am I kidding? Too late.

#15

mlooney

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Posted Apr 16, 2005 @ 11:09 AM

While I don't hate the idea of a Logan/Veronica ship, it's not where I want them to go. The darling wife, on the other hand, was all about it.

I'm not quite sure I can put my finger on why it feels wrong, it just does.

I'll give you that they are a cute couple.

#16

tjl

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Posted Apr 16, 2005 @ 1:07 PM

Meh. I take solace in my belief that any relationship between the two of them should be relatively short lived.

#17

Ankai

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Posted Apr 16, 2005 @ 1:20 PM

While it did not upset me as much as the step-sibling sex revelation on another show (idiocy), I didn't really like it. I can accept that there was some sexual tension between them or even that there always was sexual tension between them. But I believe that there was way too much tension of another sort between them to warrant this moment of breaking down. I hope that this was a moment of emotional weakness and not the set-up for something romantic. And if they do happen to get together, I am in the camp that hopes that it is short-lived and ends with both parties more fucked-up and upset with the other than before.

If Logan turns out to have had a crush/hate attitude towards Veronica, this could throw a monkey wrench into the whole hating her because of he loved Lilly. While this could make his mindset seem more twisted or more realistic, it also could make his previous hatred towards her less justifiable and more...pathetic. Like a little boy throwing a tantrum over not getting the toy that he wants. If that is so, then what does that make Veronica?

#18

marlaas

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Posted Apr 16, 2005 @ 1:32 PM

I've actually been mulling over this potential 'ship a lot since Tuesday's episode. (What? I had to do SOMETHING while our beloved forums were down!) I've come to the conclusion that while Logan and Veronica are both, IMO, among the most compelling, multi-faceted, all-around fascinating TV characters to come along in years, I just don't think the combination of them as an actual bona fide couple could ever be as interesting as the continued examination of their unique dynamic as it currently stands. Right now, they vascillate between being friends, rivals and some nebulous state in between; they have a complex and shared history that's tainted with feelings of betrayal and mistrust on both sides; they have some of the most important people in their lives in common (Duncan, the dearly departed Lilly etc.); and, yes, there's the underlying attraction that's sort of inevitable when you put two such charismatic actors together.

I just don't think making them a real couple could ever be nearly as interesting and complex as what they are now, though I'm admittedly biased by a belief that TV couple-dom tends to make both characters less interesting as individuals and tends to mean that she show starts wasting screen time on the usual comedic and dramatric relationship issues that we've all seen roughly a zillion times. Don't get me wrong: I do see the chemistry between L and V. I also have so much faith in RT and his staff that I truly believe they could be among the first to create a couple who's actually more interesting when they're together in a relationship than when they're apart. For now, though, I'd rather see other dynamics and relationships on this show explored.

Edited by marlaas, Apr 16, 2005 @ 1:36 PM.


#19

ostentatious

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Posted Apr 16, 2005 @ 1:39 PM

If Logan turns out to have had a crush/hate attitude towards Veronica, this could throw a monkey wrench into the whole hating her because of he loved Lilly.

Not if you consider how very different -- and more Lilly-like -- Veronica v2.0 is. Logan wasn't interested in the old quiet sweet Veronica, just like he's not interested in Meg. That's Duncan's type. Logan's interested in the more aggressive Veronica who doesn't take crap, which is a Veronica I think scares the hell out of the Donut. I think it actually says something more interesting (and not necessarily "healthy" but healthy is for real life relationships, not pretend ones danced by the monkeys for my entertainment) that Logan's grown more attracted to her as she's become the sadder but wiser girl. It brings the whole Lilly issue smack dab front and center since really both Logan *and* Veronica have taken on aspects of Lilly since she died. Veronica seems to have gotten the body armor, while Logan got the loudmouth constantly acting-out part.

I think it's a mistake to think that just because someone's squeeing with delight over the kiss/the ship that that means they want puppies and flowers. I'm excited about the hook-up, and I'm excited about the inevitable crash and burn, and I'm excited to see what a complete fucking *ass* Logan will be after Veronica dumps him, which she is simply IMO bound to do. I'm shipping the hell out of them because I want to see the whole gloriously fucked up opera from start to finish, baby.

Edited by ostentatious, Apr 16, 2005 @ 1:42 PM.


#20

Ankai

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Posted Apr 16, 2005 @ 1:49 PM

While Veronica is not the same girl she was before, I don't really understand the comparison between her and Lilly. She is not exactly attention seeking or the life of the party. She has quite a knack for pushing people away, although she seems to have started softening up as of late.

As for an interesting potential for a crash and burn-style relationship, one could probably do that with any pair of enemies, but it doesn't make it natural or desireable. I am not all that interested in this, but if they are going to get together, that is all that I can hope for.

#21

Brahmsian

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Posted Apr 16, 2005 @ 1:53 PM

I have to give you some props, ostentatious, for your efforts to show that Veronica/Logan isn't necessarily the result of network interference. But I think even you have to admit it *looks* more like network interference than anything else we've seen this year, don't you?

If it's any consolation, you have managed to get me a little bit more open to the possibilities of this ship. But I'm still basically against it and hoping it turns out to be a very short-lived one. One that, perhaps, helps Veronica sort out her feelings about life in general and her own life in particular, but nothing more than that.

#22

ostentatious

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Posted Apr 16, 2005 @ 2:05 PM

But I think even you have to admit it *looks* more like network interference than anything else we've seen this year, don't you?

Well, no, I don't. But you have to understand that I never have and never will think that suits give a crap about what online fandoms think except in a general statistical way. A much discussed character is assumed to be a popular character, for example, and the content of the discussions is of little use, and generally the more intense individual opinions are about anything the less useful that opinion is; for example, my opinion on Logan is so extreme that I have to be thrown out of any sample.

So when I see a pairing that has been written very strongly from the first episode the fact that a lot of online fans have been squeeing about it since that first episode doesn't impress me as having anything to do with it; rather, I think that the pairing was always on the table and the fans began to squee based on, well, the scenes throughout the season that were intended to build the slowly swelling squee. I just think you've got the mover and the moved backwards, and that the fans responded to a pairing that was written to...make them respond just this way. Do you think Buffy and Angel were the result of network interference? Other early season romantic pairings? Shows like this tend to build in love interests. This show built in a number of possible love interests; it spent more time from the very beginning on L/V than the others, but it had Weevil and Duncan on the table, too. The writers may have made the firm decision to move this direction because it was working out so well, but that's not network interference; that's paying attention to your actors and selecting the choice from the pool of possible choices that works the best for everyone involved.

Of course, this interpretation of events assumes that one reads tension between characters as a build up to romance. I read it that way because I've, you know. Watched TV before. =) It took me until RotK before I realized they were doing Pride & Prejudice with those two.

Obviously if no one found it interesting and everyone seemed to think they lacked chemistry it'd probably go hand in hand with an ixnay on the pairing, but if it was boring and chemistry free the producers et al are probably capable of seeing that themselves, and wouldn't need to get online and check with the fans.

But I'm still basically against it and hoping it turns out to be a very short-lived one. One that, perhaps, helps Veronica sort out her feelings about life in general and her own life in particular, but nothing more than that.

Well, structurally that should be the function of any relationship she has with anyone. She's the hub, everyone else is a spoke. I hope it lasts an agonizingly long time and is as entirely fucked up as is possible on network television, though. =)

Edited by ostentatious, Apr 16, 2005 @ 2:13 PM.


#23

Ankai

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Posted Apr 16, 2005 @ 2:16 PM

People squee and speculate about all sorts of stupid ships, but that doesn't give the pairings any credence.

Perhaps Thomas and Co. did indeed have this pairing in mind from Day One, but that does not mean that it is necessarily a good idea or one that we have to accept.

Edited by Ankai, Apr 16, 2005 @ 2:16 PM.


#24

sunworshipper

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Posted Apr 16, 2005 @ 2:18 PM

My response to Veronica and Logan's kiss is that I like it and that it makes sense and follows from what has transpired over the course of the season. I loved the adversarial relationship between the two from the early scenes in the Pilot, even when I thought Logan would be just the high-school villain. But we've seen Logan revealed as more than just a jackass. We now know that Veronica's judgment of him was faulty. And we've seen that Wallace wasn't joking: Veronica is a marshmellow; her compassion for others is just kept locked away most of the time. IMO, bringing Veronica and Logan together isn't ruining either character. It's just revealing or confirming elements of both characters' personalities that have been present all along.

I loved watching Veronica and Logan snark viciously away at each other. I still do. But the beauty of VM for me is that the dynamics of the relationships on the show don't and can't remain the same. These two are too volatile to remain as unfriendly classmates; they have either come closer or become even more bitter enemies.

But mostly I've come to trust that Rob Thomas knows what he's doing with the characters on this show. This is only the first season for heaven's sake. I can't bring myself to second-guess the author's decisions at this point. I care about these two characters because of the writing and acting. I've learned that Rob Thomas' characters and stories are a lot richer than I ever dreamed when I first started watching. That's why I love this show so much. Rob Thomas is a LOT smarter than me.

I guess I trust my own instincts in liking LoVe. I don't go around shipping hopelessly non-canon couples. The only two ships I've ever really gone for I've seen coming from episode one and were actually launched and successfully sailed by TPTB. (You might guess one of those ships from my posting name.)

Do I squee? No. Do I think LoVe4vr? Probably not. I'll take what comes, be it a relationship, a nasty breakup, enventual friendship, or whatever other permutation RT has in mind. I'm looking forward to it, even and especially if it surprises me.

I came across this LoVe essay last night on LiveJournal. A truly intelligent and insightful explanation of LoVe.

Edited by sunworshipper, Apr 16, 2005 @ 2:25 PM.


#25

Ankai

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Posted Apr 16, 2005 @ 2:27 PM

I don't know. Thomas has made a really good show, but he is not infallible. I am not hopping on the LoVe train simply because it could be more interesting than the Veronica's present relationship. Yeah, how many people thought that hooking her up with Leo was a great idea?

I don't want Logan and Veronica's relationship to remain stagnant. I have appreciated their gradual acceptance of each-other's presence in their personal space. I just think that this development, while not completely out of Left Field, could threaten to take an important part of the show in a direction that it does not have to go. At least not yet. As you said yourself, it is only the first season.

#26

InigoMontoya

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Posted Apr 16, 2005 @ 2:29 PM

People squee and speculate about all sorts of stupid ships, but that doesn't give the pairings any credence.

What gives a relationship credence is that it is believable within the context of the story and the characters. In both respects, the writers have done a good job, as evidenced by many of the analytical posts here and around the net as to those characters.

Perhaps Thomas and Co. did indeed have this pairing in mind from Day One, but that does not mean that it is necessarily a good idea or one that we have to accept.

We have to accept the story the writers develop and tell or not watch. It is not the television viewer's role in a dramatic piece to dictate the story they want told unless there are other considerations at work, such as the desire to draw better ratings or other such external considerations. Inviting the audience to do so always seems horribly gimmicky to me (isn't OTH doing something like this?). I, for one, am content to put my trust in these writers for they have entertained me, captivated me and enriched me over 18 episodes and I have no reason to think that will change any time soon.

#27

ostentatious

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Posted Apr 16, 2005 @ 2:32 PM

Perhaps Thomas and Co. did indeed have this pairing in mind from Day One, but that does not mean that it is necessarily a good idea or one that we have to accept.

Of course not. You like what you like and dislike what you dislike. Who said different? But not liking something doesn't mean that it wasn't planned, or rather on the table as an option, from the beginning. I think the text supports the idea that it was on the table and throws a great deal of doubt on the idea that Rob Thomas came up with the idea in February or so. Well, I guess since people had the script in February when the spoilers for the kiss came out that means he would've had to have had the idea at least by December. See what I mean? Suits were online in December seeing stuff that made them force RT to go this direction? It seems not only unlikely but logistically impossible. Where were the squeeing hordes in December? Ruskie Business had to have been broken in October or November, and it was with the touching and the collapsing etc. that it became obvious they were moving this direction, and no way was anyone responding to fan boards that early. If they had been Logan and Weevil would've been kissing outside the Camelot last week.

One big reason I'm hoping there's no L/V sex is that no sex leaves Veronica more open to exploring dating a lot of different guys over the course of the show. I'm not saying that she's not free to have sex with whoever she likes, but I'd think it was out of character for her, considering her relationship with Duncan and everything else that's gone on with her. My expectation is that she won't have sex with anyone for a long, long time, and she'll go through several relationships before it happens.

Edited by ostentatious, Apr 16, 2005 @ 2:38 PM.


#28

Ankai

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Posted Apr 16, 2005 @ 2:40 PM

Well, this isn't a thread about whether we think the show's creators were forced into doing this. It is about what we think about the kiss or a potential relationship between the characters. Some people like it, others don't. At this point, I don't. But I am not going to cause a fuss about it outside of this thread. I am not the kind of person to walk out of movie theatre simply because I think that one part of the plot is becoming contrived.

I just finished reading that essay, and what I got out of it was:

1) Logan and Veronica have something to offer the other.

2) The kiss was so ingenius because it made no sense to either of them.

#29

Aes Sidhe

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Posted Apr 16, 2005 @ 2:58 PM

I just finished reading that essay, and what I got out of it was:

1) Logan and Veronica have something to offer the other.

2) The kiss was so ingenius because it made no sense to either of them.


Actually, I wrote that essay. This is...not exactly my point in that essay, or is a vast oversimplification. I thought the kiss really worked because that while both Logan and Veronica were surprised by it, and it was surprising to the viewers, there's actually a lot of previous canonical support to the behavior of both characters that made it nonetheless a logical occurrence in the story. Writing that is both surprising and inevitable is GOOD writing. I think you missed the part where I was trying to illuminate the logic behind the actions of each character, which is actually what impressed me most.

Likewise, I like the pairing as a couple not because they are otpomgmeanttobesquee, but because I think you can make the case that they have as much potential to be good for one another and to work well together without getting boring and being all hearts and puppies. It would be a constantly challenging relationship because they're both carting around Capital-I Issues, but it would be fun to watch, and possibly not just for the train wreck aspects; those crazy kids are a type of characters and mutual relationship that could be as much fun to watch them figure out how to make it work over a longer-term. I realize YMMV and you may not approve, but I don't think the argument that the PTB of the show just threw this out there with no prior support holds much of any water; I think they've been building in this direction all season.

#30

healing fish

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Posted Apr 16, 2005 @ 3:10 PM

I completely agree with the arguments that the pairing has been planned all along, or at the very least wasn't dictated by fan response. It's been too well paced and thought out for me to take that idea seriously. And I wasn't crazy about the idea of an actual relationship myself (although I'm slowly turning around on that, and I believe that it will at least be interesting to watch for however long it lasts), but I'm simply not seeing pandering or network interference. There's too much background and too many reasons the whole thing makes sense, and unlike with other shows, there's reason to believe the writers put at least as much thought into this as we do.

Writing that is both surprising and inevitable is GOOD writing.

Couldn't have put it better myself. Wouldn't have tried.

Edited by healing fish, Apr 16, 2005 @ 3:16 PM.