238 replies to this topic

[tothemax]

I remember watching a rerun of Shades of Grey in abject horror. However bad other episodes were, they at least attempted to have a plot. This ep didn't even have that. Horrible, just horrible.

[Curare]

I don't remember the ep. He gets bitten by something?

[dbrugg]

There was a thorn involved. It was part of some funky vine that could move, because Data had to grab it before it struck when they grabbed a sample.

[Supernuke]

Even though most find season two sub-par, I think that some of the episodes such as the Measure of a Man and the Royale were some of the better eps in the whole series.

Edited by Supernuke, Mar 11, 2005 @ 10:11 PM.

[Gilmel]

"The Royale?" Ugh, I can't stand that episode. I find it completely excruciating and slow.

[Curare]

The Measure of a Man was a great ep. The discussion Picard has with Guinan about what was going on was great. Q who? is part of this season and I love that ep.
Q says: "It's not safe out here! It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid."
Picard and by extention the UFP is pretty damn arrogant about their place in the universe. Q gave them a much needed reality check. I also wish they would have kept the special effect when we see the Borg cube actually regenerate. It was cool.

Edited by Curare, Mar 12, 2005 @ 12:01 AM.

[TimeMonkey]

I also wish they would have kept the special effect when we see the Borg cube actually regenerate. It was cool

You mean the twitching piece of string?

[BanjoSteve]

The Measure of a Man was a great ep.

I would respect this episode a lot more if they'd found a more creative way to discuss the issue. A courtroom drama is the laziest way to handle any issue (see: the entire David E. Kelley oeuvre). You basically get to have your characters stand up and recite one side of the argument. Then you have opposing counsel stand up and recite the opposite argument. Then you have the judge make a speech weighing both sides and coming down in favor of one or the other. I prefer to see philosophical debates dramatized, and IMHO the best instance of this on Star Trek is Cogenitor, an Enterprise episode (imagine that!).

Anyway, for me, the interesting part of that episode is Riker's story. He has to argue, to the best of his ability, that one of his friends has no inherent right to life, or else said friend will die. Talk about your rocks and hard places.

[Sea]

I love the interaction between Riker and Data at the end of the ep.

[Sheap]

I prefer to see philosophical debates dramatized, and IMHO the best instance of this on Star Trek is Cogenitor, an Enterprise episode (imagine that!).

I agree that Cogenitor is really good (it's the only Enterprise episode I would count among the "episodes that make Trek important"). But I think "Measure of a Man" is better. The important issues in Cogenitor have to do with, uh, "her" self-realization that she is actually an individual deserving of rights, which she learns from Trip. Data already knows that, so the premise is slightly different. To recast "Measure of a Man" in the "Cogenitor" mold, you'd have to actually have Data go to Maddox's lab, but do something while he's there that makes Maddox realize that Data really is sentient. He would have to, I guess, risk his own life to save Maddox from some sort of lab accident, then justify it in some insightful way. This, however, only provides one example. How many feats must Data perform before Maddox is convinced?

But doing it that way you only show something that the audience already knows. You lose out on Picard and Guinan's implicit parallels with slavery, you lose out on Riker's struggle with having to try to kill Data in order to save him, you lose out on Data's final line, "That action injured you and saved me. I will not forget it." which just drives home the point that Data *really does understand*.

In "Measure of a Man," it's not the courtroom arguments that really make the point. It's how Data behaves on the stand. It's his explanations for his behavior. Why his medals and his gifts from Picard are important. Why Tasha Yar was important. How he is able to form sentimental attachments. Not only does it prove to the court that Data is sentient, it shows the viewers that he actually has emotions, too; he's just not aware of them. We already know Data is sentient. But what we didn't know - and what we learned here - is more about just what is important to him and why. I think this really is presented in the best way possible in this episode.

The episode is just so issue-oriented, and there's just so much subtlety to it. Maybe it's the talkiest episode in all of TNG. But they've got a lot to say.

Edited by Sheap, Apr 18, 2005 @ 2:21 AM.

[Locutus]

Qwho was on today and is always an enjoyable episode, but the Guinan/Q connection was never really explained. Q said she was going by a different name a couple of centuries ago. That would mean she was going by Guinan at least five hundred years ago (Time's Arrow), then changed her name, then changed it back, by the time of this episode. There seemed to be some implication that she had some sort of power to protect herself from Q, but this never manifested itself in later episodes, or concerning Al-alurians in general. She also said that the Borg have been around for thousands of centuries, but a Voyager episode seemed to indicate that they had only assimilated a few hundred species about 700 years ago. Not a total contridiction, but does seem off. And they weren't assimilating at this point in any case, but did in the past. There does seem to be a clear connection to the neutral zone damage and the Borg, which would mean that they "aren't coming", they already have been here. I suppose the fanwink thing to explain it all would be that some part of the signal from 2063 to the Borg of that era made it through, they sent a scout ship and scooped up the NZ bases for study.

[Harrison Fjord]

That was her.

[Divaah46]

I'm watching "The Royale" now. It's not meant as a serious foray into philosophy. It's a fluffy bit of fun, with Riker and Data camping it up at the tables. And the poor dead astronaut, trapped in a crappy novel.

[frenchtoast]

"Up the Long Ladder" was on today; I only watched the beginning, so I missed Dirty Feet woman, but I forgot that this episode had Worf giving Pulaski the Klignon tea ceremony. Too bad that gem of a scene was in such an offensive episode.

"The Royale" never bothered me much because I got the feeling it wasn't taking itself too seriously. They knew it was cheesy and they went along with it. Besides, I love seeing Data say, "Baby needs a new pair of shoes." Of course, he was cheating, but what the heck, I like it anyway.

Edited by frenchtoast, Jul 25, 2005 @ 4:13 PM.

[BigBeagle]

Another good tidbit from "Up the Long Ladder" was the scene where Picard takes in the chaos of the cargo bay and starts laughing. "Sometimes, Number One, you just have to bow to the absurd." That, and Worf showing Head Drunken Irish Stereotype Guy a REAL drink.

And I agree with frenchtoast and Divaah46: "The Royale" was a lighter-than-air hoot.

[tothemax]

Because I was in a nostalgic mood yesterday, I was pleasantly surprised yesterday to find that my Tivo had recorded an ep of TNG. That ep? Up the Long Ladder. Turns out nostalgia was not strong enough to make me watch it.

[frenchtoast]

Yeah, I didn't watch the whole thing either when it came on. I gave up when they began transporting the ... uh... peasants(?). But it was still nice to see Worf and Pulaski. Those two had some good chemistry.

The episode that aired before that? "Samartian Snare". God, now that was dumb and dull, which are the two things television shows shouldn't be. At least I can laugh at "Up the Long Ladder" while cringing at horribly offensive it is. Well, I do occasionally say, "We are smart," or "We are strong," or "We are not smart," in that monotone Pakled way.

"Measure of a Man" is not only one of the stand out episodes of that season, but it's one of my favorite TNG. Ranks right up there with "The Drumhead" as a great example of how to do courtoom drama on TNG. I forgive S2 a lot for that episode, I just don't watch a lot of them.

[Irish Wolf]

Well, I do occasionally say, "We are smart," or "We are strong," or "We are not smart," in that monotone Pakled way.

Or, as I said to my brother when he came over to fix my car, "It is broken. Make it go."

[frenchtoast]

Elementary, Dear Data is what I believe you are thinking of, wrighty555. Personally, I prefer the later Ship in a Bottle. Brent Spiner doesn't make for such a great Holmes. It's cute, but give me Jeremy Brett any day.
I should be fair, though, and confess that it was Data's admiration of Holmes that led me to read the books. And props to the writers for that bit of continuity.

Edited by frenchtoast, Jul 26, 2005 @ 6:50 PM.

[JyDanzig]

For some reason I've always fondly recalled "The Child." After recently watching a rerun of it, I can't imagine where those positive feelings came from. I think I must have been blinded by my unthinking love for Troi.

But the most bizarre thing is that the episode really has nothing to do with Troi herself. Her reaction to the situation is barely explored, we really only have the faintest clue what her feelings towards her offspring are. We see her being so adamant on keeping the baby... but how does she come to this decision? Not even addressed.

Reading through this thread, I was also fondly reminded of "Q Who." The Borg had such terrifying simplicity here. Sometimes I forget just how frightening they were, when I think of how overused and contrived the whole Borg thing became circa Voyager.

Edited by JyDanzig, Oct 1, 2005 @ 9:31 PM.

[marina to]

Saw "Measure of a Man" today. The ep stills gives me chills in a good way. Was it wrong to be crying at angsty Riker? I so felt for him watching it this time.

[Chyromaniac]

Was it wrong to be crying at angsty Riker?

Of course not- he was in such a tough spot that it's hard not to feel for the guy. I particularly like that for a couple of seconds he really gets into his role; when he's looking at Data's schematics there's a moment where he sort of mentally goes "Bingo!" before he remembers what he's doing there. It doesn't have quite the dramatic effect of Data's .68 second contemplation of Lady McBorg's offer; of course, Riker can only do so much with the script, he's only human...

I have to say though, that for amateurs, both he and Picard made pretty good lawyers. Of course, Picard gets the best line- ("Starfleet was founded to seek out new life- well THERE IT SITS.") but hey, he's the captain.

ETA:

I would say it actually has a deeper dramatic effect, since Data's "offer" was played for the humor and we never actually got to see it as we did with Riker.

Touche- I don't think I really expressed myself properly there. I meant to imply that the First Contact scene was a more memorable moment, and got tripped up in the wording.

Edited by Chyromaniac, Oct 12, 2005 @ 6:37 PM.

[Harrison Fjord]

It doesn't have quite the dramatic effect of Data's .68 second contemplation of Lady McBorg's offer

I would say it actually has a deeper dramatic effect, since Data's "offer" was played for the humor and we never actually got to see it as we did with Riker.