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Unidentified Bogies: "The Plan" Speculation (NO SPOILERS)


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#1

WildeChild

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Posted Jan 19, 2005 @ 2:05 AM

This thread is for viewers in Canada and the U.S., where the series has just begun, to speculate about the upcoming season. If you are among the lucky people who have already viewed most of the season, please don’t post any spoilers or hints here about upcoming events or reply to speculation. Feel free however, to be highly amused by any and all wild ideas from yours truly.

So far I’m really enjoying this show. It is dark, adult and intelligent. I get the feeling the producers know exactly where they are going with the plot, which makes speculation fun.

I keep wondering why we should believe #6 when she says there are only 12 Cylon models. Why would she tell the truth? And why 12 models? Is that twelve as in the twelve Lords of Kobol? The Twelve Colonies? Or does it have a more biblical implication as in the twelve disciples? Judas was a disciple, are we to imply that ultimately one of the Cylons will betray their own kind? Does it already obliquely refer to Baltar betraying mankind?

Is Baltar a Cylon? Its improbable but it is possible. When his #6 died on Caprica, her programming could have been downloaded to him and that is why he “sees” her. Didn’t she say her essence would be transmitted to another Cylon at the moment of her death? Why did she shield him when the bomb exploded? Interesting that Boomer, another Cylon, was Baltar’s means of getting off Caprica.

How encompassing is the Cylon plan anyway? Why have a sleeper(s?) on board Galactica and not activate them during the initial assault? Couldn’t Boomer have simply given away the Galactica’s original location when they were assembling the other ships before the initial jump … or disable the FTL drive?

I wonder what happed to the original “human” Boomer anyway? Do you think she ever really existed?

How did the Cylons know, specifically, who Helo was and how/where Boomer had left him on Caprica? Did Gal-Boomer somehow unknowingly transmit the information to Cap-Boomer ? How do Cylon sleepers communicate with other Cylons?

What’s up with that Ho-lon, #6, anyway and her whole “a kiss before dieing” act? On two different occasions she’s kissed someone right before she new she was going to die. Is she cataloging them? Checking for DNA compatibility? Infecting them with tracking nanites? Just a skeezy cylon ho?

I can’t wait until Friday!!

#2

Lila

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Posted Jan 19, 2005 @ 2:28 AM

Wow, I didn't even realize there wasn't a spec topic. Good call, thanks!

#3

Jolie Blanc

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Posted Jan 19, 2005 @ 2:58 AM

I'll bite on the interesting repetition of the number '12'. From what I remember, the old series was definitely not afraid to get into the mystic, or at the very least explore how the survivors believed in re: mystic stuff. The Cylons seem to be quite oddly religious for a man-made race, even if their religion isn't anything that's readily identifiable.

I wouldn't be surprised if the number '12' and other aspects of Colonial mythology make reappearances throughout the course of the show, long may it run. It certainly did in the Original.

I'm also really interested to see how the general public starts to adapt to the changes of their lifestyle. I -love- the idea of water rationing and having to find a new source of water, but I want it to be continued as a theme. Adapting over a long time to not having manufacturing to make new parts, new clothes, new -paper-...Pretty soon, people are going to start running out of whiteboard markers, darnit! What will happen? I just love stories which, through cataclysmic circumstances, people are forced to adapt their lifestyles and their social rules to fit a new reality. Love it. Go BG. :)

#4

cuiusquemodi

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Posted Jan 19, 2005 @ 10:02 AM

How encompassing is the Cylon plan anyway? Why have a sleeper(s?) on board Galactica and not activate them during the initial assault? Couldn’t Boomer have simply given away the Galactica’s original location when they were assembling the other ships before the initial jump … or disable the FTL drive?


Why appear every 33 minutes until the humans destroy a certain ship? Why, instead of Base Delta Zeroing Caprica, send the human-like Cylons to track down the remnant on the planet? I think the Cylons see themselves almost as doing their religious duty toward humanity, much the same way the Inquisition was.

#5

Nuallain

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Posted Jan 19, 2005 @ 10:13 AM

Hmmm... as someone who's seen the first 12 eps, I'm finding myself wondering if speculating about stuff we still don't know is at spoilerific. For example would speculating about the significance of the number '12' - and thus revealing it hadn't been revealed by the end of the season - dampen other people's speculation or not?

#6

Glark

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Posted Jan 19, 2005 @ 11:45 AM

Yes.

#7

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Posted Jan 19, 2005 @ 12:12 PM

I know this is not "the Mole", but I can't stop looking! I vote either Dualla or Billy as most likely to be evil Cylons. They are both young, so they would not have been around anyone for too long. They both seem to be genial. Dead giveaway. Mark my words, before this show is done, Billy and/or D will go on a killing rampage.

#8

MrBananaGrabber

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Posted Jan 19, 2005 @ 1:31 PM

I'm usually a spoiler ho, but I like this show enough to avoid them, so I am glad for this thread.

Copped from another forum, so I can't take credit:

Perhaps the later model Cylons, like Boomer and Six, are simply human clones with an implanted chip or genetically imbedded programming. The Nebula could have interfered with the chip/programming on Boomer, giving her more freewill (not detonating the final bomb), and dropped her from direct contact with the Cylons (thus the need for another sleeper on the Olympic Carrier).

Now my speculation, the Cylon in the nebula at the Ragnar space station was an older model, designed to duplicate a human synthetically, and was thus more susceptible to the radiation. Knowing its limitations the Cylons began designing new models based on clones, instead of synthetics.

#9

bigscary

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Posted Jan 19, 2005 @ 2:11 PM

As far as mysticism goes, I don't mind it, as long as Iblis makes no appearance. The Pegasus I could live with, the Apollo Landing Transmission I could live with, but Iblis (I keep trying to type Iblish) would just annoy me.

Personally, my biggest curiousity is whether we'll see any non-colonial humans, or if it will just be the convoy alone until Earth or Cancellation. I'm fine either way, but I am curious, as the original series had the former, but this one harps much more on the "only humans anywhere" theme.

#10

WildeChild

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Posted Jan 19, 2005 @ 3:27 PM

* This post very vaguely alludes to events through episodes 1.2 *

...the Cylon in the nebula at the Ragnar space station was an older model, designed to duplicate a human synthetically, and was thus more susceptible to the radiation. Knowing its limitations the Cylons began designing new models based on clones, instead of synthetics


Interesting. Much of the speculation I've read on the evolution of Cylons suggests that they are moving closer to our stucture/biology rather than away from it. While it may have been necessary for the Cylons to create a humanoid model to infiltrate the colonists defenses, why would the Cylons make that model the next step in Cylon evolution?

The show seems to support that they are as the humanoid Cylon models always seem to be in command. The suggestion that N6 wants Baltar to be the father of a child also implies a wish or plan for hybrids. Human form and biology are not without their design flaws so why wouldn’t the Cylons ultimately design something better? Do they just want to be more like their creators?

It seems the more advanced the Cylons become the more "human" they become. As Cylons evolve closer to humanity what ultimately still makes a Cylon a Cylon? The artificial intelligence? The robotics/synthetics? Their belief that they are immortal? What do Cylons perceive as their own identity? Their search for meaning and their burgeoning spirituality becomes understandable and supremely important. The plot possibilities here are fascinating.

I think the Cylons see themselves almost as doing their religious duty toward humanity, much the same way the Inquisition was.


I'd be really interested to hear more of your ideas on this. I'm still completely undecided if the Cylons ultimate plan is the complete genocide of the human race or if its something else entirely.

#11

MrBananaGrabber

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Posted Jan 19, 2005 @ 6:14 PM

I'd be really interested to hear more of your ideas on this. I'm still completely undecided if the Cylons ultimate plan is the complete genocide of the human race or if its something else entirely.


Just the fact that this series has a plan fills my geek heart with glee.

I think it's a very good touch to have the Cylons be religious since they are created beings and they know it.

Also I'm curious to see where there leadership really turns out to be: the new model Cylons? A single human 'creator?' An unknown Imperious Leader, or are they a Borg-like hive mind?

So many neat things to ponder!

As far as mysticism goes, I don't mind it, as long as Iblis makes no appearance.


Very much agree here. I liked the old show, but watching the last few episodes recently showed how much it turned to pure Velveeta by the end.

#12

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Posted Jan 19, 2005 @ 9:05 PM

Also I'm curious to see where there leadership really turns out to be: the new model Cylons? A single human 'creator?'


They seek the Roykirk!!!

;->

#13

NikkiJ

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Posted Jan 20, 2005 @ 7:41 AM

WildeChild

Feel free however, to be highly amused by any and all wild ideas from yours truly.

As one of those people who have already seen 12eps, I've already had many wild ideas and shouted them at the telly and if I could remember them I sure they would make for hilarious reading!

#14

cuiusquemodi

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Posted Jan 20, 2005 @ 9:37 AM

I don't know if I'm the first to think of it, but I think the reason that the Cylons are baiting the Remnant (aka the Fleet) is that they too (through eavesdropping through Boomer) believe that Earth is out there, and their chasing the Remnant is their way of motivating humanity to get to Earth quickly.

Why do the Cylons want Earth? Simple. More humans to kill.

#15

Murrain2

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Posted Jan 20, 2005 @ 11:04 AM

I know this is not "the Mole", but I can't stop looking! I vote either Dualla or Billy as most likely to be evil Cylons.

Nah, it's Boxy.

Maybe, if the human-like Cylons are the next generation, there's some advantage to an organic mind, like being able to make intuitive leaps or individuality, or self-interest. Maybe the ability to lie to one's self--doesn't Six ask Baltar how he does that?

Or maybe they're only in charge for the duration, designed to think like humans for the war, to understand the enemy.

#16

jharrell

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Posted Jan 20, 2005 @ 7:14 PM

I keep wondering why we should believe #6 when she says there are only 12 Cylon models. Why would she tell the truth?


I have a theory. It might be dumb, but I'm sticking with it until I find a good reason to give up on it. My theory is that everything the actual Six said to Baltar was true, while everything Six-in-the-head says to him is a lie.

As to why twelve … I doubt there's going to be an in-band answer to that. Sometimes writers just do things because they're neat, or because they resonate, or for symbolic reasons that have nothing at all to do with internal logic. I bet the 12-models thing is in that class.

The 33-minute thing is in the same class, as Ron Moore pointed out on his blog. There's no in-band explanation for why the number was 33, and any attempt to retroactively apply one would have been (1) lame and (2) a distraction from the real story.

So I'm content to accept a certain number of "because I said so" answers from the writers.

Perhaps the later model Cylons, like Boomer and Six, are simply human clones with an implanted chip or genetically imbedded programming.


In the pilot, Adama refers to Leoben's "silica relays," or some such piece of technobabble. I'm glad they didn't go into that in any real detail, because It Would Have Been Silly, but the impression I got was that the human-lookin' cylons are real, flesh-n-blood organisms that are indistinguishable from humans except at the sub-cellular level. Like for instance, maybe one of their neurotransmitters is different from ours, and it can only be detected through something like gas chromatography/mass spectrometry.

My understanding right now is that it is possible to tell cylons from humans, but not without a buttload of science stuff … and maybe not even then. There's reason to believe that Baltar's cylon detection method from the pilot was just a complete fraud.

#17

prosandcons

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Posted Jan 21, 2005 @ 5:54 AM

Frack me. I think I figured this out.

Yes, I really just signed onto this site to post in The Amazing Race gabbery since I've been a TARfan since season two, but clearly I'm just a big geek because my first post is in the Galactica thread after waking up at 4:30 in the morning ruminating about all the questions this series has spawned in my head (mostly because I taped the pilot and the first two episodes for my roommate, so I ended up rewatching them with him).

WildeChilde, you're definitely thinking along the same lines, both in asking about why a humanoid model is the next step in evolution, and your speculation on Cylon interest in creating a "hybrid," together with a focus on their "spirituality."

Here's my logic, that stems from the series opening captions, They Evolved, and They Have a Plan.

First, when you're going to say They Have a Plan, it seems to me you're talking about a genius master plan, and while having your sexy model seduce the top defense scientist to knock out all military defenses is a smart idea, it's not really much in terms of a genius master plan, and certainly not in the meta-sense of introducing an entire television series if it was all executed in the pilot mini-series. Why have 12 models when 1 worked out just fine to mostly wipe out the human species? So I'm thinking the 12 new models were created for something much more.

Second, why use the term "evolved," which is a biological term? I think Number 6 has given a lot away. It's not that she wants a child with Baltar, but they want kids, to create some sort of master race that gives them a reason for their existence. From what she's said, they don't think that they have a plan, they think that God has a plan. The children have returned. To procreate.

From other things she's said, they're "attracted" to the best, and to survivors. The whole attack and obliteration of the colonies was to (1) ensure they could breed without interference and (2) identify the best and the survivors by breeding with the ones who are able to persevere. This helps give the Caprica subplot some sense of purpose, because they want to locate the last survivors there to mate with them. Maybe the Number 6 there wanted to mate with Helo, and Boomer Prime killed her because she recognized he still might locate others--she's already proven from the pilot to be somewhat "in charge." (I'm still wondering about love and jealousy issues they might be wrestling with, given they have some emotion.)

I'm going to stick my neck out and say that the President is a Cylon and she's out to get some Adama lovin' (she was the one to point out they need to be making babies, right?). The Cylons may have long had respect for Adama as a worthy adversary from the past. (They may have even known that the Galactica wouldn't be subject to their attack.)

It's interesting to add that the female Cylons are pretty take-charge, while the male Cylons are more weak. If the grand master plan is breeding, it would make sense for the women to be the main players, with the men in supporting, tactical roles. With this in mind, Amelie06, it could be entertaining to find in the end that both Dualla and Billy are Cylons (though my money's on Dualla, since she gave him that random kiss).

Edited to add: So maybe Boomer sabotaging the water tanks and what I will assume is going to be a full season or more of Cylon encounters are not really attempts to eliminate the last humans, but tests designed to assess the best of the best. Now that they have the last remaining battlestar, the Cylons want to determine the players most responsible for its perseverance.

Edited by prosandcons, Jan 21, 2005 @ 6:22 AM.


#18

Wildog27

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Posted Jan 21, 2005 @ 9:31 AM

as Ron Moore pointed out on his blog


Since I'm completely obsessing about this show and the ideas behind it, could you kindly direct me to this?

Or, I could just Google it. Ron Moore's Blog

Edited by Wildog27, Jan 21, 2005 @ 9:35 AM.


#19

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Posted Jan 21, 2005 @ 9:43 AM

I wonder if perhaps the 12 models of Cylons & the 12 colonies are related?

Do we know if each model is linked to a specific colony?

#20

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Posted Jan 21, 2005 @ 8:58 PM

Is Baltar a Cylon? Its improbable but it is possible. When his #6 died on Caprica, her programming could have been downloaded to him and that is why he “sees” her. Didn’t she say her essence would be transmitted to another Cylon at the moment of her death?

I watched the pilot the other day and she says that after she “dies” she will wake up somewhere in the exact same body. If they transmitted her into him (dirty!) that line is either a goof or a red herring.

If Boomer is a sleeper agent for the Cylons, why would they be trying to destroy her? In “Water” she woke up to find a detonator in her bag. Later, one was on her ship. It would seem that there is another Cylon agent who knows that Boomer’s programming (or whatever) is screwed up and is trying to eliminate her.

Aren’t the twelve colonies named after signs of the Zodiac? The Zodiac is the ring of constellations that the Sun seems to pass through each year as the Earth orbits around it. So – forgive me if this was established in the original show, I never watched it – wouldn’t that imply that humans left Earth to form the 12 colonies instead of the other way around?

#21

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Posted Jan 21, 2005 @ 9:49 PM

It seems like Boomer had already planted the detonator aboard her Raptor, knowing that it would be used to search for other sources of water. Given the internal battle/hesitation that seems to take place when Boomer detects the water, it's likely that her mission was to destroy herself if she did find water but that her human side re-asserted itself or the Cylon part of her reconsidered.

#22

cuiusquemodi

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Posted Jan 21, 2005 @ 11:45 PM

So – forgive me if this was established in the original show, I never watched it – wouldn’t that imply that humans left Earth to form the 12 colonies instead of the other way around?


The backstory, as I understand it, is that the twelve colony ships left Kobol (a different planet altogether) and settled the twelve colonies. One group went in the other direction and, according to the myths, settled earth.

#23

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Posted Jan 22, 2005 @ 1:36 PM

Pretty soon, people are going to start running out of whiteboard markers, darnit! What will happen?

I was thinking this -- or rather, I was thinking something similar -- during the "Bastille" episode when Tigh was drinking from his alcohol stash. "Umm... he'd better be rationing that. Who knows when they're going to be able to set up a new still." Otherwise he's going to be going through some involuntary withdrawal, a la Charlie on Lost.

#24

Jack Gladney

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Posted Jan 22, 2005 @ 4:27 PM

So, thinking about the Cylon religion got me thinking about the humans' religion. We know that there's a fair amount of Kobol talk and lip-service given to some kind of pantheon, of whom Apollo's namesake is a member. However, Baltar seems to respond to Six's monotheistic God talk as if he is familiar with the notion of monotheistic religion, perhaps even from personal experience. I've also been wondering how seriously the humans take their lords of Kobol; Adama talked up Earth, presumably a part of the colonies' religious mythology, as if it were real and nobody laughed it off as absurd. However, Apollo's callsign is, as revealed by Richard Hatch, derived from one of the gods' names, and taking a sacred name in vain for your nickname (he did say something like "it's just a callsign" when Richard Hatch asked him about it) might conceivably be a blasphemous thing to do. Plus, the galacticans seem to be a pretty secular people overall.

So, do you think they take all the "Lords of Kobol" stuff seriously, or treat it more like a bunch of myths, like we've treated the gods of the ancient Greeks for the last few thousand years? And are there any other human religions to speak of, or is Baltar the first one to encounter the idea of monotheism with all his crazy hallucination sex? (although I have to say, a god that is in favor of crazy hallucination sex iis my kind of god.)

#25

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Posted Jan 22, 2005 @ 5:29 PM

So, do you think they take all the "Lords of Kobol" stuff seriously, or treat it more like a bunch of myths, like we've treated the gods of the ancient Greeks for the last few thousand years?


I figure that they have to take it at least somewhat seriously as they've got a priest around. Also Starbuck seems to be at least nominally religious (at least C&E Christian sort of religious) as she dug out some icons to pray to in the mini after she thought Apollo had bought it.

Which kinda of makes me think that they're keeping the Greek pantheon as the Lords of Kobol (Apollo and Zeus have been mentioned, and I'd put money on Starbuck's figurines being Artemis and Athena). Also, they've already drawn parallels between two characters and a Lord (Apollo/Apollo, Adama/Zeus) which makes me wonder if we should be looking out for other character/god connections (Starbuck/Artemis anyone?)

#26

Jolie Blanc

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Posted Jan 22, 2005 @ 7:53 PM

However, Apollo's callsign is, as revealed by Richard Hatch, derived from one of the gods' names, and taking a sacred name in vain for your nickname (he did say something like "it's just a callsign" when Richard Hatch asked him about it) might conceivably be a blasphemous thing to do. Plus, the galacticans seem to be a pretty secular people overall.


This is just my opinion, but I think the Lords of Kobol and the Gods are actually two separate groups. The Lords are more like saints or prophets -- the Gods are actual gods.

So people pray to the Lords like they're intercessors, if you would, but they're of a lower order than the Gods. It'd be the equivalent of naming your son St. John instead of Jesus.

Just an idea. :)

#27

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Posted Jan 23, 2005 @ 3:02 PM

Stryder

Aren’t the twelve colonies named after signs of the Zodiac? The Zodiac is the ring of constellations that the Sun seems to pass through each year as the Earth orbits around it.  So – forgive me if this was established in the original show, I never watched it – wouldn’t that imply that humans left Earth to form the 12 colonies instead of the other way around?


Modern astrology forgets that there are actually 13 Zodiac constellations.
The 13th is Ophiuchus, The Snake Charmer.

I was a Planetarium Technician in college (even though I was a Finance Major??). The constellations are just patterns that the ancients (Babylonians, Greeks, and Egyptians) saw in the night sky and told stories about.

Our PhD literally told us that they made them up because they didn't have television. Also, they drank all the time and when you are drunk you are bound to see things in the sky. Hee

Now it could be that the constellation names come from the home-world Kobol and when the colonists arrived on Earth they just transferred their constellations to their new night sky. Maybe...

#28

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Posted Jan 23, 2005 @ 4:57 PM

Another (more prosaic) possibility for the 12 models of Cylon thing is that others will be revealed throughout the series - we know #6 is one, we know Boomer is one, we know the guy Adama fought in the mini is one, etc...through process of elimination, I bet at some point it'll come down to there being one model left of which we aren't already aware, and it'll be a major player. And since apparently some of them don't even know they're Cylons, anyone could be one at any time.

#29

Stryder

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Posted Jan 23, 2005 @ 5:02 PM

Now it could be that the constellation names come from the home-world Kobol and when the colonists arrived on Earth they just transferred their constellations to their new night sky. Maybe...

Oh. That actually makes quite a lot of sense. And here I thought I was being all clever and shit. Good call.

I just re-watched the mini-series, and did it seem to anyone else like the guy on the Space Station who got blown up looked to old to be Boxey’s father? I mean, I know older men can father children… but the actor looked like he was intentionally made up to look old. I wonder if he just adopted Boxey, unaware that the boy was a Cylon. Come on, Boxey’s got to be a Cylon. Any child actor who doesn’t make my teeth itch had to have been constructed in a lab somewhere.

#30

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Posted Jan 23, 2005 @ 5:08 PM

In one of the earlier versions of the script, the beginning showed a younger Boxey's father arriving and then did a sequence of him steadily aging showing that every day/year the Colonials would have someone at Armistace station while the Cylons sent no one. I guess it was cut because the opening was long enough as is.