Jump to content

Figure Skating Coverage


  • Please log in to reply

6305 replies to this topic

#4891

ChicksDigScars

ChicksDigScars

    Couch Potato

Posted Apr 1, 2012 @ 1:44 AM

Oh, there's a bit of controversy in dance, too. Marie Bowess, a Canadian, was the tech specialist for dance. No conflict of interest, there. In the free dance, Virtue and Moir weren't sharp, and they knew it. Weaver and Poje were more inspired. The look on Moir's face when they finished was of resignation, not elation. In the meantime, Davis and White were flawless and the crowd gave them an extended standing ovation. But, the judges followed marching orders and gave V&M the gold.

Here's a Chicago Tribune article commenting on lowballing of D&W and the Shibs after the short program.

From CBC Sports:

Virtue and Moir....weren't thrilled with a couple of tiny bobbles in their program. The first came about a minute in when Moir caught a toe pick in the ice.

"I had a little stumble. Luckily at that point, my character is kind of shocked and surprised, so I just kind of played it off as good choreography and was even thinking I could argue that to the media if I had to," Moir said laughing. "But it's a split-second thing, and you can't let the program go."

Davis and White — Virtue and Moir's training partners who were second after the short dance — brought the crowd to its feet with their skate to Johann Strauss' "Die Fledermaus."

"We don't know where the discrepancy was in the judges' eyes," White said. "We're aiming for first, so we're disappointed we didn't get that, but we're so proud of the way we skated, despite the discrepancy in the scores, we're going to go home really pleased, and also find out what the judges are looking for."


The toothless USFSA will do nothing to support their skaters, which is why the results are at an all time low point (with the exception of Dance), and interest in the sport in this country is in the pits. We don't even get REAL television coverage of World's, anymore. Call me when NBC puts them on the network, again, or at least on NBCSportsChannel (used to be Versus). Universal Sports? Come on. Who actually GETS that channel? Or, forcing us to PAY for "packages" just to see World's? I already pay Comcast over $200 a month, thanks!

In the meantime, Skate Canada lobbies and politics for their skaters, and you see the results. Hey, USFSA. How about sticking up for your dance teams. You know, the ONE part of your World team that DOES live up to expectations?

Ice dance podium should have been Davis/White for gold, Virtue/Moir silver, and Weaver/Poje bronze. French team got the home country and "paid their dues" boost. Glad we won't have to see that mummy program again!


Thank you. My sentiments exactly.

A friend of mine summed up the dance results like this: "Throw a tantrum, win a title."

Edited by ChicksDigScars, Apr 1, 2012 @ 1:56 AM.

  • 0

#4892

rhitroadkill

rhitroadkill

    Fanatic

Posted Apr 1, 2012 @ 12:02 PM

I am watching Alissa's skate and cringing. That poor girl. It was Letitia Hubert at the Olympics bad. It was nice of the crowd to try to cheer her on though. Was her warm-up that bad? She probably would have scored higher if she had just started going for doubles but props to her (I guess) for continuing to fight.

I also wanted to say how very very very much I hate her costume. If you are going for the nudie look, what the hell are those bright white bikini bottoms doing there? It looked like she purchased her costume from Victoria's Secret's boudoir collection.
  • 0

#4893

catray

catray

    Fanatic

Posted Apr 1, 2012 @ 5:37 PM

Daisuke Takahashi was totally robbed of the gold! I'm not a figure skating expert, but to my eyes, his program was pretty damn perfect. He landed his quad (it looked like he two-footed it to me, but stayed upright and didn't flail), cleanly completed the rest of the his jumps-- which were all gorgeous, and generally had an awesome program.

Patrick Chan is a great skater obviously, but he flubbed the landing on one jump and completely flubbed another. And he wins? I know he did two quads, but I would think a clean program with one quad would come out on top (yeah yeah technical score blah blah blah). Argh.

I definitely enjoyed the mix of nationalities we had in the men's skate-- some good skaters from countries we didn't see a lot of (Italy, Spain, etc).
  • 0

#4894

noisebox

noisebox

    Video Archivist

Posted Apr 2, 2012 @ 2:05 AM

It's not just about the jumps. It's everything, the transitions, the footwork, the edges, quality. These are part of the accumulation of points, which is what the COP is, about racking up points not the cleanest skate. Here is the comparision of what both Chan and Takahashi did:

Chan - quad toe, quad triple toe combo, four triples, a popped axel,level four for two spins and circular footwork.
Takahashi - quad toe, triple axel triple toe, four triple jumps, three level four spins, underrotated triple flip.

Right off the bat Chan has him beat on the quad front. Also, Chan's landings of his jumps were solid, whereas some of Takahashi's were a bit tight. Takahashi had the skate of the men's night regardless, but I am getting so miffed by the hatred of Chan. He is a skater's skater and pure quality on ice.

In other news, Mao Asada is calling it a career. Who is next? Alissa? Jeremy? Pang and Tong?
  • 0

#4895

redpencil

redpencil

    Fanatic

Posted Apr 2, 2012 @ 3:21 AM

I think they need to make the penalties for falls bigger. Right now the penalty for going over time (even if a couple seconds) is the same as for a fall. When the scores in the long program for the men are at least 120, and over 150 for the top competitors (plus the top 3 all scored in the 170s), 1 point doesn't seem like all that much. Granted, they're already penalized by not getting points for the jump they fall on, but I still think the penalty should be higher.

Edited by redpencil, Apr 2, 2012 @ 3:22 AM.

  • 0

#4896

blubld43

blubld43

    Fanatic

Posted Apr 2, 2012 @ 6:54 AM

Daisuke Takahashi was totally robbed of the gold! I'm not a figure skating expert, but to my eyes, his program was pretty damn perfect. He landed his quad (it looked like he two-footed it to me, but stayed upright and didn't flail), cleanly completed the rest of the his jumps-- which were all gorgeous, and generally had an awesome program.

I agree, and not for the first time. Then we hear WHY Chan is actually "better".

I think they need to make the penalties for falls bigger.

If this were the case, Chan would rarely win. Sorry, I just cannot get behind a skater who falls in nearly every big competition and then takes the gold anyway, when there are skaters like Daisuke who give a great performance and then have to settle for the silver.
  • 0

#4897

NicoleMN6

NicoleMN6

    Stalker

Posted Apr 2, 2012 @ 9:36 AM

I think they need to make the penalties for falls bigger.


Agreed. I appreciate that the penalties were made small in order to encourage the men to go for quads. But now that so many men are doing quads, that penalty needs to go back up. Otherwise, it looks nonsensical, especially to the casual skating fans who only tune in during the Olympics, to see skaters fall and still get gold medals. (I also think Patrick Chan should be penalized when he comes so close to skating into the boards! Talk about interrupting the flow of the program...)

And really, was it so bad that men weren't all doing quads? I'd rather see a clean program than a quad splatfest. And there's only so much that the human body can take -- look at how the focus on triple-triple combos has messed up the ladies. (Skaters who are too young, hip injuries, early retirements.)
  • 0

#4898

noisebox

noisebox

    Video Archivist

Posted Apr 2, 2012 @ 9:10 PM

I swear to dog there is no pleasing anyone. The bar for quads was set after Joubert bitched about having a male champion with no quads (Buttle 2008). The ISU changed the rules to mark a quad higher and still more bitching. I was reminded by someone that Takahashi dumbed down his free skate, making it less intricate than earlier in the season and let's remember in the short, he wasn't perfect either.

The anger over the mens event is wasted energy and not seeing the forest for the trees. Where is the outrage over the ice dance event? I am V&M fan and I do not understand the gap between them and D&W.
  • 0

#4899

COESpiral

COESpiral

    Couch Potato

Posted Apr 2, 2012 @ 9:51 PM

In other news, Mao Asada is calling it a career.


Where did you hear this? I've seen no report about this, and the skating boards I read certainly would have been in an uproar. The Japanese media definitely would have something to say about it.

There's an article on icedance.com that lays out how Virtue & Moir beat Davis & White and it makes plenty of sense. It all comes down to the levels. I do wish D&W had won, but understand how they didn't.
  • 0

#4900

NicoleMN6

NicoleMN6

    Stalker

Posted Apr 2, 2012 @ 11:42 PM

So glad I get CBC (Canadian TV channel) so I could watch these World Championships, including the exhibition gala! I'll grin and bear the Chanflation and other patriotic bits (conveniently glossing over the sub-par situation with the Canadian ladies and pairs these days - only one spot for the ladies!), in exchange. Plus next year's World Championships will be in Ontario, so I'm expecting lots of good coverage again.

Can't believe the Russians only have one spot for their men right now... yikes. And Plushy's still in the mix. Maybe he can show up next Worlds and get them back up to 2 spots. for Sochi.

It'll be interesting to see who retires this summer... you gotta figure that anyone skating next season is in it for Sochi. And we'll be seeing the return of Lysacek and Weir. I rolled my eyes when I heard that last year, but hey, with the U.S. men tanking these days, those two could be an improvement!

I'm calling Hanyu as the likely (hopeful?) candidate to upset Chan in Sochi.

The Worlds should never be in Nice again. There definitely seemed to be a problem with the quality of the ice and the size of the rink. Plus I'm sure it's no good for a skater to be going into a cold rink from warm outdoors - that kind of thing always gives me a bad cold.

And to finish on a shallow note, I'm not a big Virtue/Moir fan because I feel like they skate by (ha) on her looks too much, but I just realized they remind me of the leads from "Say Anything." (John Cusack and Ione Skye.) Maybe they can do an "In Your Eyes" free skate someday :-)

Edited by NicoleMN6, Apr 2, 2012 @ 11:43 PM.

  • 0

#4901

selkie

selkie

    Fanatic

Posted Apr 3, 2012 @ 9:34 AM

For years, there have been complaints about the ice with Sunbelt teams in the NHL, especially when they're deep in the playoffs in May. Not surprising to see complaints about ice in a climate similar to California. Were there other cold weather winter bidders in the mix for the event? I know some other sports are having problems right now finding cities willing to spend the money it costs to host a World Championships, and it can be a case of whoever could get talked into hosting got the event.
  • 0

#4902

WhitneyWhit

WhitneyWhit

    Fanatic

Posted Apr 3, 2012 @ 2:06 PM

I'm surprised the ISU allowed the championships to go back to Nice considering all the issues last time. The venue that this event took place is isn't even an arena - it's a convention center that they converted one of the spaces into an arena. The last time the event took place in that building people complained that some of the seats came with obstructed views and I noticed that during the broadcast. The seats at the end of the room extrended past the seats on the sides. Also, several of the skaters complained that the competition room was kind of warm and that the ice was melting in sports - and on the other end of that, the practice venue was apparently way too cold. France was considering Montpellier and Grenoble before settling on Nice - I think they should have went with another city.

re:quads

I hate quads, I understand why they're there, but I hate that the men have become so obsessed with them. I noticed a lot of programs in Nice seemed to have been constructed as follows: "Stroke fast, faster, faster, QUAD. Now, I shall flail my arms around in dramatic fashion for the remainder of this program"
  • 0

#4903

Amtosbm

Amtosbm

    Video Archivist

Posted Apr 6, 2012 @ 5:34 AM

Daisuke Takahashi was totally robbed of the gold! I'm not a figure skating expert, but to my eyes, his program was pretty damn perfect. He landed his quad (it looked like he two-footed it to me, but stayed upright and didn't flail), cleanly completed the rest of the his jumps-- which were all gorgeous, and generally had an awesome program.


I've loved Dai's skating since the 2006 Olympics but here at the worlds it was not perfect. As someone mentioned it was watered down from the GP earlier in the year which means he is losing on GOE marks. Jumps are easier to do when there is no transition into them. Just ask Elvis Stojko and Plushenko. He is no where near as fast as Patrick and he does not cover the ice as well. Does he have more charm and charisma? Tons more. But the judges are supposed to be watching the whole package and Patrick beats him here. His jumps are better with more flowout, Dai's are too stilted and his spins not as fast. Dai has improved in some areas that way and I hope he continues to. A final note on Patrick. I saw a coach interviewed once who watched Patrick skate a program that had every turn known to skating done in the first forty seconds. He was in awe.

Yes it looks bad for skating when someone falls and still wins. But its not like it has'nt happened before. Baiul won with a flawed skate, Barb and Maurizo and Shae and Vic both went ahead of the Rita/Pav in SLC 2002. Some still argue the original pair result there was correct. Both Kurt and Plushy fell in the sp at the Olympics and still came 4th ahead of cleaner but less noteworthy skater. I could add more but its not like this a new thing. Its just we have a faster more wide-reaching forum to bitch about it. I think the booing was ok until they did it into the interview and ceremony. Then it got tacky.

I like Hanyu but I am not sure about Sochi unless he cleans up his posture. He reminded me too much of Tim Goebel out there. I was very happy to see a different bronze medalist though. The pressure on Plushy next year will be huge. Its a good thing he is the perfect athlete to handle it no matter how much I hate his skating. Too bad Abbott is'nt. I do like his skating.

As for dance- I am having a good laugh over people talking about Canada's strong federation getting us two gold medals. What strong federation- the one that got Elvis a gold in Nagano or Jamie/David Shae/Vic in SlC? The can't even get BMO back to finance their events.

I think they need to make the penalties for falls bigger.


So we end up with more Lepisto's winning medals with doubles? That is a catch-22. People watch for the big jumps. If we go back to the safety of triples or in the ladies perhaps even doubles people will bitch about that. I am sure they will keep tweaking the system, it is different than it was in 2006, and even 2010. But either way no one is ever going to like the results. I just hope the skating in Sochi is better than Vancouver. Has their ever been a well skated Olympics?

Ok now that I feel dirty for defending a not very popular win, onto the gossip. Has anyone else heard that Max/Tatiana are now a couple? I just can't see this lasting to Sochi. Max literally is the only ice diva left and I am sure eventually will drive her nuts with his need for perfection. I also feel sorry for Stans having to coach his former lover and her new lover. Russia always brings the best drama. Oh and speaking of that - another nasty rumour is that Morozov landed Elena. They say its why he is looking slimmer and less oily. All part of the seduction plan. Like this was'nt predicted from the moment they joined his team. And a big eww to him being almost twice her age. Poor Miki if its true.
  • 0

#4904

redpencil

redpencil

    Fanatic

Posted Apr 6, 2012 @ 8:06 PM

So we end up with more Lepisto's winning medals with doubles? That is a catch-22. People watch for the big jumps. If we go back to the safety of triples or in the ladies perhaps even doubles people will bitch about that.

Well, sure. I wouldn't make it so that people stop even trying the harder jumps. But there has to be a balance. Right now the penalty is a teeny tiny fraction of what they're scoring. It should stay a very small fraction, but not quite as small as it is now.
  • 0

#4905

NicoleMN6

NicoleMN6

    Stalker

Posted Apr 7, 2012 @ 1:33 PM

There's still another event left in the skating season; The World Team Skating Championships. (But I don't know if it will be televised... given NBC's pattern this year, we'll probably have to catch it on YouTube or CBC or Universal Sports.) USFS is sending Gracie Gold instead of Alissa Czisny, which is probably smart at this point, except that I'm not sure Gold is in shape (she's had more time off) and suddenly has to add another element to her program to compete at this senior level.

Exciting that there's going to be a version of this at the Sochi Olympics! I've always thought it was silly that skaters could only compete individually, unlike gymnasts, and in one category, unlike speed skaters and swimmers. There should even be separate medals for the short vs. long program.

The other countries competing are Japan, China, France, Italy and Russia. I think the US has a decent chance of a silver, although we don't have the best skaters in any category (except dance) because we have a pretty well-rounded group overall. Canada will probably win gold because of Chan & V/M, but their ladies and pairs aren't great. Japan has strong ladies and men, and I guess now it has that pair team, too...
  • 0

#4906

Harry24

Harry24

    Fanatic

Posted Apr 8, 2012 @ 2:04 PM

Ok now that I feel dirty for defending a not very popular win, onto the gossip. Has anyone else heard that Max/Tatiana are now a couple? I just can't see this lasting to Sochi. Max literally is the only ice diva left and I am sure eventually will drive her nuts with his need for perfection. I also feel sorry for Stans having to coach his former lover and her new lover. Russia always brings the best drama. Oh and speaking of that - another nasty rumour is that Morozov landed Elena. They say its why he is looking slimmer and less oily. All part of the seduction plan. Like this was'nt predicted from the moment they joined his team. And a big eww to him being almost twice her age. Poor Miki if its true.

Ooh, amtosbm, thanks for the juicy tidbits. Could you supply those of us less in the know the last names of these folks and any background info you can give. For instance, are you saying that Miki Ando was involved with Morozov?
  • 0

#4907

WhitneyWhit

WhitneyWhit

    Fanatic

Posted Apr 8, 2012 @ 3:55 PM

Ugh, Morozov is such a creep, I have no idea what Shae-Lynn Bourne ever saw in him or why she thought a marriage to him would ever last. I read at one time they he and Ando were enagaged, guess it was time to trade in for a younger model.

I'm not at all surprised about V/T and their relationship. He has talked about how he wanted to skate with her since 2006 in every interview he has given and they are always all over each other - even more than Virtue/Moir - after every skate.
  • 0

#4908

NicoleMN6

NicoleMN6

    Stalker

Posted Apr 8, 2012 @ 5:20 PM

Decided to check out NBC's Figure Skating "better late than never" World Championships coverage today, even though I had already watched all the top skaters on the CBC broadcast last week (you know, when the championships were actually happening), because I wanted to see more of the U.S. skaters, and hear if the U.S. commentators had a different take on the Davis/White vs. Virtue/Moir scores and the Alissa Czisny train wreck.

What a JOKE. They didn't show Czisny at all! And the commentator was just Tracy Wilson -- whom I had already heard doing CBC's commentary with Kurt Browning. So what, they had her watch the tape again and act surprised again and pretend it was live? So confused and disgusted. NOT that I like Bezic or Hamilton, but weren't any unique commentators available? How cheap is NBC right now, and how much is it shooting itself in the foot by covering skating so poorly this year, only to inevitably wonder (and blame the lack of Tonya-Nancy nonsense) why skating viewership is down when Sochi comes around?
  • 0

#4909

Alexa

Alexa

    Fanatic

Posted Apr 9, 2012 @ 8:58 AM

I had no complaints about Worlds on NBC yesterday mainly because it is the first time I have seen Worlds since NBC took the contract back (it was only on Universal the last couple of years). So I was glad to see some of it, and frankly just seeing a few skaters from each discipline was enough for me. I don't love the commentators (Traci is okay with me though), but this was a quick easy way to watch Worlds.

That said, this was a fairly disappointing Worlds, but I am glad that Ashley really showed some grit for the US. I was glad not to see Czisny fall all over the place--been there done that, so I was happy to avoid that. She just can't seem to pull it together long term.

I don't have much of an opinion about the dance competitiion...I just don't know enough about the technical details to be able to say who is better. Though I did prefer Meryl and Charlie's performance quite a bit over the Canadians. I do think that Meryl and Charlie appear to feel they can't be beaten at times after several wins, so maybe this is a good push for them to motivate them for the next Olympics.
  • 0

#4910

NicoleMN6

NicoleMN6

    Stalker

Posted Apr 9, 2012 @ 1:52 PM

Very glad to read that Mirai Nagasu has left Frank Carroll. I've thought for over a year that she seems overly intimidated or rebellious with him, and that commute was no good at all. Though perhaps it would have been OK if she could have moved closer to him on her own -- she's 19 now, so it seems silly that she can't move a couple of hours away from her family and see them on weekends. What if she had gone away to college? Plus look how great things turned out for Ashley Wagner, who is about the same age and moved across the COUNTRY to change coaches.

Though maybe if Evan Lysacek had gone back to training properly with Carroll again this year, his training partner influence would have also done Nagasu some good. Well, we'll see how her next season goes.

Edited by NicoleMN6, Apr 9, 2012 @ 1:54 PM.

  • 0

#4911

Good Queen Jane

Good Queen Jane

    Fanatic

Posted Apr 12, 2012 @ 8:36 AM

It's the time of year for break-ups, retirements, and new partnerships. Amanda Evora and Mark Ladwig have announced the end of their pair partnership with Evora retiring and Ladwig looking for a new partner.

Edited by Good Queen Jane, Apr 12, 2012 @ 8:37 AM.

  • 0

#4912

quof

quof

    Couch Potato

Posted Apr 12, 2012 @ 7:13 PM

And Alissa Czisny is NOT retiring. For reals.
  • 0

#4913

Alexa

Alexa

    Fanatic

Posted Apr 13, 2012 @ 7:26 AM

I read that about Alissa too, and honestly I am bummed. If it were just about her and her dreams/ending on a better note, I would be fine with it. But if she manages to do well again at Nationals we run into the same problem we do every year--do you send her to Worlds where she has a bad record and risk limiting the number of people we can send to the Olympics? This was Alissa's year to show she had changed and could deliver at Worlds.... if she couldn't do it this year, I certainly don't feel any confidence for next year.
  • 2

#4914

rhitroadkill

rhitroadkill

    Fanatic

Posted Apr 13, 2012 @ 5:22 PM

Where are y'all getting the news? Universal Sports (always pretty terrible) is now even MORE terrible for news. Where else does one go?
  • 0

#4915

WhitneyWhit

WhitneyWhit

    Fanatic

Posted Apr 13, 2012 @ 6:12 PM

Icenetwork.com is usually pretty up to date when it comes to news.
  • 0

#4916

BDArizona

BDArizona

    Fanatic

Posted Apr 15, 2012 @ 10:48 PM

Yes it looks bad for skating when someone falls and still wins. But its not like it has'nt happened before. Baiul won with a flawed skate, Barb and Maurizo and Shae and Vic both went ahead of the Rita/Pav in SLC 2002. Some still argue the original pair result there was correct. Both Kurt and Plushy fell in the sp at the Olympics and still came 4th ahead of cleaner but less noteworthy skater.


Hell, Slutskaya didn't fall and one judge in SLC placed her 4th in the FS--behind two skaters who fell. That was under the old system, and it was one major reason she didn't get the gold. So, this has always happened. Add the political situation that strongly influenced the U.S. coverage of that Olympics, especially the anti-French and anti-Russian sentiment in the U.S., and SLC was just a clusterfuck.
  • 0

#4917

Good Queen Jane

Good Queen Jane

    Fanatic

Posted Apr 17, 2012 @ 7:36 AM

From Skate Canada:

Christy Krall and two-time World Champion Patrick Chan have concluded their coaching relationship, following Krallís indication of her decision to resign from Chan's coaching team, which was accepted. While the two have parted ways, it was with sincere best wishes to one another for the future.

Krall, based in Colorado Springs, CO, was a valued member of the team which coached Chan to his two world championship titles in 2011 and 2012.

Chan will continue to work with Kathy Johnson, as he revamps his coaching team. He will maintain his current training base in Colorado Springs, CO with more frequent return visits to his home in Toronto, Ont.

  • 0

#4918

Mikita

Mikita

    Fanatic

Posted Apr 17, 2012 @ 9:16 PM

Why doesn't U.S. Figure skating implement the rule they used to get Nancy Kerrigan to the 1994 Olympics? The top two or three skaters shouldn't automatically go to Worlds or the Olympics. They should have to show readiness to compete before a competition. After the Flatt incident at last year's Worlds they should have done this. Maybe the top Six finishers should have random visits from officials to determine who should go. I have no doubt that if this had been done we would still have three going to Worlds. Flatt would not have been able to hide an injury. There is no way Czisny wasn't already showing signs of imploding in practice before the competition. If she let the fact that she wasn't chosen to compete at Four Continents get to her at Worlds I guarantee she was showing signs in her practice sessions leading up to Worlds. It seems to work for our Gymnastics program why not skating? No central training but competitive readiness should be determined before a big competition.
  • 0

#4919

big chicken

big chicken

    Fanatic

Posted Apr 18, 2012 @ 1:44 AM

I think tradition is a big reason why. Traditionally, the top three finishers (or top two or the champion) are the ones who goes to Worlds and until the past few years it's given the US decent teams. It's what the skaters prefer too because they know exactly what they have to do in order to get to Worlds-skate well at Nationals. I don't see it changing any time soon as long as the skaters continue to favor it. The only exception has been for cases of injury where the skater could argue that had they not been injured they most likely would have skated well enough to make the team. Even then, the petition wasn't always granted. Nicole Bobek petitioned to go to 96 Worlds and was denied.

Edited by big chicken, Apr 18, 2012 @ 1:46 AM.

  • 0

#4920

CassandraRedux

CassandraRedux

    Fanatic

Posted Apr 19, 2012 @ 10:02 AM

Anyone watching the World Team Trophy? The ISU site is streaming it live from Tokyo (in the middle of the night here in North America, of course.) They also have the archived performances under "other channels."

I was pretty thrilled to wake up and see Meryl/Charlie and Daisuke in the lead in their categories. Gracie Gold had a great senior debut, and Jeremy got a season's best for his short.

France or Italy or maybe Japan should win the team spirit award, which I think actually exists.
  • 0