385 replies to this topic

[wounded]

Just thought that this would be an interesting topic of discussion. Their strained relationship is a big part of the show and adds for much drama. There are touching moments at times, which are always a joy to watch. Will they grow closer? Do we want them to? Or do we enjoy the drama, and love it when a tender moment sneaks in briefly (ie. "Than you, Mommy" in Rory's Dance), only for the drama and angst to kick in again?

Discuss!

[enchantress]

Lorelai and Emily are my favorite mother/daughter dynamic on the show. I hope to see them get closer this season. I think it's something they both want...yes, I think Lorelai wants to have a good relationship with her mother. She would never admit it, but you can tell how much Emily's approval means to her (sometimes). Like in "Scene From A Mall" when the were in the food court and Emily complimented her. Lorelai blushed or something (well, she looked happily surprised at the comment).

I would like to see Emily make more appearences in The Hollow. Maybe she can help out at the Inn because for whatever reason I really like that thought. I'm really excited to see where their relationship goes this season.

[outtabreath]

I, too, hope Lorelai and Emily can work out thier mother/daughter issues -but I despair that they will, at least anytime soon. The test run debacle paired with Emily whisking Rory away to Europe may drive more wedges into the relationship. I see Lorelai trying to remain neutral in her parents' marital issues, which will add futher strain as they may each perceive this as Lorelai's siding with the other.

[MrsWiggleMunch]

So, did anyone else find it weird that Lorelai went to hug Emily when she and Rory got back from europe? I can't recall them hugging at all in the past. I could be wrong, since seasons 2 and 3 are pretty much a sucking void in terms of memories for me, but I've always seen their relationship as very still and awkward, therefore, hugging of any sort is generally not welcomed or encouraged.

Anyone got some proof otherwise?

[outtabreath]

No hugs that I can recall. I'll get back to you in a couple of months once I have a chance to watch 2+3 on ABC Family.

I think Lorelai was trying and she's all giddy and in love and, when you're like that, you want to share it with everyone around you.

[java2guzzle]

So, did anyone else find it weird that Lorelai went to hug Emily when she and Rory got back from europe?

I found it more interesting that when Emily backed away and said she smelled like airplane Lorelai looked rebuffed and took it personally. However, when Rory was in the same situation she just said, "I can handle it Grandma" and hugged her anyway. That's the interaction I love about this show. It reminds me of my Grandma and how my Mom and I had different relationships with her and different expectations of her.

[aidanspencer]

I, too, would like to see Lorelai and Emily bonding over Emily's marriage troubles. Emily will be needing someone to talk to, and if the past is any indication (such as, Loreali going over to Emily's "to hang"), it seems that Lorelai will most likely be the one to lend her an ear. I really want to see this.

[xphile101]

While you're watching for hugs, watch and see if we ever see Emily wearing pants before Say Goodnight to Daisy Miller. Because I really don't think we do.

[Theaterchick]

Since Lorelai probably doesn't choose Emily's pants, I'm going to post my observations over in the "Richard & Emily" thread.

[sphyphys]

Continued from the Unpopular Opinions thread:

Dance lessons at Miss Patty's hardly equal private music lessons, or whatever.

I never said they were equal. It really depends on the type of private music lesson. They're not all the same. Compared to some blase or disinterested "prestigious" teachers, Rory may well have received more one-on-one attention from Miss Patty.

Rory never had those kinds of opportunities, because Lorelai wasn't aware of them, and couldn't afford them.

That's not to say she had no opportunities at all. And I don't agree that the opportunities she missed are necessarily the best ones. As Rory said "just living in Stars Hollow is kind of an extra-curricular activity". The clubs at her school, participating in town functions, helping out at the Inn, learning independence at a young age - these are all valuable experiences that money can't buy. We can't all experience everything. Everyone has their own financial limitations.

I think the price of re-entering Richard and Emily's world when Rory was still young was too much to pay for the sake of some prestigious music lessons and youth programs. I value the Girls' mental health, happiness and independence more than a couple of special, expensive programs. I think Lorelai shares this value so I feel that she made the right decision.

I just question her judgement at times. Remember she took her time about approaching her parents for the Chilton money too. It took her quite awhile to swallow her pride, and if she really always put Rory's interests first she'd have done it sooner.

I don't think it was just about swallowing her pride. I think she was seriously considering whether it was worth exposing Rory to that harmful, toxic atmosphere just for the sake of Chilton. In the end, she decided it was worth it. And recent events have proved her wrong. But even if Lorelai originally decided against the loan, she had Rory's best interests at heart. She did put her daughter first.

Edited by sphyphys, May 5, 2005 @ 8:09 PM.

[sphyphys]

If just living in Stars Hollow were really a qualified extra-curricular activity, all the kids from Stars Hollow high would be routinely getting into top schools.

It was just an analogy. I didn't mean that living in SH should be considered a qualified acitivity to put on a college application. I don't think that's realistic. All I'm saying is that while Rory didn't have the opportunities young Lorelai had, she had several opportunities that young Lorelai did not have. And one of them was living a happy and full life in the fun and loving home of Stars Hollow. I value that experience more than Lorelai's summer camps and balls.

I might feel differently if Rory were a town leader (organized things like the picnic or dance) instead of just a participant.

I don't think everyone is meant to be a leader or that being a leader is the only worthwhile thing to be. She was a supportive, regular, punctual and creative participant. I think that's pretty worthwhile.

Emily gave Lorelai what she thought were advantages-- but they were not advantages Lorelai valued. But she tried, honestly, to do what she thought was best

I can see what you're saying. And I don't really hate Emily just because of the summer camps and debutante balls. I agree that she was probably just trying to do what she thought best. I just hate that she was such a cruel bully while doing so. I mean, telling your baby daughter that she has a big head and giving away her rabbit without asking are bad enough. Not to mention leaving a sick child to the care of nannies alone and only approaching her when her screaming drove all the nannies to quit.

The main point is that Emily always made Lorelai feel bad about herself and she valued appearances above her daughter's feelings and needs. Like telling Lorelai to hold her breath and squeeze into the debutante dress, however uncomfortable it was. And having her run around the block rather than letting the dress out. Lorelai's statement that she had no air in that house, she felt strangled and she had no one to talk to really get to me. I feel that she was starved for love and affection, and she received none. That is why I really hate Emily and Richard.

[sphyphys]

But colleges like leaders and winners on their extra-curriculars, is all I'm saying. But I think we've already established that ASP doesn't really know all that much about the college app process and fudged it a little bit.

They do, but I doubt all college students were leaders. A leader has to have some followers. I think Rory's ice cream queen position was a "leader" or "winner" position and she held that all her life. I don't think Rory's community experiences count for nothing either. They were valuable too. And I agree that ASP didn't seem to write the whole thing very well (having Lorelai be completely ignorant of the fact that Rory would apply to more than one college was bad writing in my opinion).

she would probably have been a better mother to a square like Rory.

I don't really think so. I think Rory would have resented her too, but more silently than Lorelai. After Rory refused to give a speech at her birthday party, Emily froze her out. She wouldn't accept her apology until Lorelai mediated. So I don't think Emily and Rory would have the close relationship they have today without Rory as mediator. But I agree that they would have had a better relationship than Em/Lor.

Giving away the rabbit-- I would totally agree, except that it's established that Lorelai was afraid of the rabbit, which makes the incident more comic.

Yes, it was absolutely comic. But it does establish the kind of mother Emily was and is - rather than talk to her daughter about her feelings and emotions, she just went right in and took away the offending rabbit (after waiting a week. That's ample time to talk to a daughter). Also, Luke is the rabbit in today's far-less comic position (except that Lorelai isn't afraid of Luke!)

Her behavior at that Thanksgiving was "just one time," but it was an appalling incident, the kind of thing that in some families is actually irreparable and unforgivable. She embarrassed the whole family in front of company.

Just wanted to add some more to this: if that dinner was so irreparable and unforgivable, then by the same principle, Lorelai should have left her own parents several times. They have been guilty of far worse behaviour. For example, I don't think the Thanksgiving dinner was any more appalling than:

1) Richard embarassing his family and guest when Dean came to visit
2) Richard embarassing the entire family at Rory's coming out
3) Richard embarassing Lorelai at her place of work
4) Emily embarassing her entire family at the football game when she confronted Richard about his secret lunches
5) Emily embarassing herself at the mall with her manic shopping spree
6) Emily and Richard embarassing Lorelai at her place of work, again (Dragonfly Inn after the special suite fiasco)
7) Emily and Richard embarassing themselves and Lorelai at the Logan dinner with their rude, unseemly behaviour.

I have sympathy for Lorelai because she was provoked by Richard's deceit and manipulation when she erupted at the Thanksgiving dinner. Except for item 4), I don't think the provocation in any of the above 7 incidents was as bad. I detest the idea of Richard and Emily sitting up on their high horse when they have been guilty of worse behaviour. If Lorelai can forgive them, they can certainly forgive her. I don't think such incidents are only awful when she is the guilty party. "Embarassing your family" seems to be part of the Gilmore way.

I had a friend whose mother gave away her kitten while she was at camp. Now THAT was mean.

I don't see the difference. Both mothers gave away their child's pet without asking the child and the child only found out when it was too late to do anything. I think that's pretty mean and reprehensible.

Some things like this really are forgiveable in the long run.

Yes, they are. I just used it as an example of why I think Emily was a cruel bully who would be very difficult to live with. I don't think Lorelai holds this particular incident against her though. Fresher instances have popped up since, very frequently.

I guess I have not yet seen the episode re sick child and nannies...

It's from Wedding Bell Blues if you're interested.

I do remember Emily recalling mashed banana on bread for Lorelai, so we know she herself took care of Lorelai sometimes (and Lorelai sleepily said "Thanks Mommy", and we saw Emily's emotions all over her face).

I think that if Emily really had made that bread, Lorelai would have remembered it. She was racking her brain and couldn't remember the incident. Emily does stretch the truth sometimes for her own benefit. I think she might have made the bread and forgotten about it, or maybe she made it for someone else. But I did like that episode; I think that was the best of Emily. That was the height of my liking for her.

So I don't think Emily was such a cruel bully as all that, though Lorelai perceived her as one. I liked the way Lorelai explained the difference when they went to a spa.

I think Emily was a cruel bully for the most part. I don't think one isolated banana bread incident changes that, but it does mitigate it somewhat.

I see the way Emily acts now and can't imagine how Lorelai bore it as a child. It's easier as an adult - she can always retreat to her own home (though sometimes Emily barges in there too) and she has more confidence and pride in herself and her abilities. She also has proof that she can handle herself. But the idea of a totally dependent child subjected to Emily's tyranny with no way out and no allies to speak of - I think that's very sad.

The spa episode was a great one. I think part of my dislike of Emily is that she is very pushy. She knew Lorelai wouldn't want to go to a spa with her but she couldn't respect that and try something else. She had to trick her into it.

Edited by sphyphys, May 6, 2005 @ 8:18 AM.

[sphyphys]

[QUOTE]You interpret all of Emily's actions as "evil" and all of Lorelai's as "well-meaning and noble." [/QUOTE]

Competely false. Can you bring up the post where I've said this? I think several of Emily's actions are evil and several of Lorelai's actions
are "well-meaning and noble". I've backed them up with my analysis of their motivations and feelings. Accusing me of favouritism proves *nothing*. Do I like Lorelai better than Emily? Hell, yeah! But I've attempted to remain objective in my analysis.

[QUOTE]how, for example, do you excuse Lorelai's "Ben Hur" jokes when giving a deposition for her mother? Even Rory looked disgusted. Emily was wrong to corner Lorelai into doing it, and should have known that Lorelai would find it difficult not to call her mother critical, but Lorelai's inability to stop herself from wisecracking even in that environment is disgustingly juvenile.[/QUOTE]

I don't think it needs an excuse. I explain it by saying that Lorelai truly believed her mother was a horrible boss and the maid was completely within her rights to sue her. She has been a maid herself and she knows how difficult it is. Yet, she was forced between a rock and a hard place. She wants to help her mother but not at the risk of perjuring herself. I can't blame her for that; she has her own ethics and conscience. I don't think her joking was to amuse the lawyer but to try and deflect the more difficult questions where she could not lie but could not give a straight answer either. Her behaviour was not juvenile; she was trying to do the best she could with a difficult situation. I think answering with a "Ben Hur" reference (which would be taken as an obvious exaggeration) was better than saying bluntly "She's awful and the maid is completely right."

Of course, Rory would look disgusted. Rory isn't the one being forced into a deposition.

[QUOTE]And could cost her mother a lot of money.[/QUOTE]

Well, hey, here's a novel idea: maybe she could treat her maids decently and then, they wouldn't sue her! I refuse to blame Lorelai for this. Emily needs to take some personal responsibility for her own actions.

[QUOTE]Lorelai has zero tolerance for decorum and doesn't know when to keep her mouth shut[/QUOTE]
And Emily is just the reigning queen of decorum, I'm sure. If she can excuse bad behaviour in herself, she can certainly excuse it in Lorelai. I totally disagree about the zero tolerance statement. Lorelai has behaved better than Emily on several occasions. Witness her telling the boys at the Yale brunch to run away when Emily began airing her dirty laundry. Witness her biting her tongue instead of airing her own grievances at the Logan dinner. She didn't bring it up until the kids had left. She certainly knows how to hold her tongue when necessary.

[QUOTE]often her jokes are wildly inappropriate and adolescent (even the Marmalade "voulez vous coucher avec moi" at the Thanksgiving dinner really was, and only the good fortune that the French woman caught the reference saved that from total embarassment. Lorelai will risk anything for a laugh, it seems).[/QUOTE]

It's a popular song tune, and the minute she sensed it fell flat, she began explaining that. What exactly was she risking? And jokes in general, are not serious things. Of course they will fall under the adolescent or inappropriate category.

[QUOTE]Emily was angry with Rory at the birthday party, but that was in S1![/QUOTE]

What difference does that make? My point was that Rory and Emily would have had difficulties in their relationship had it not been for Lorelai's timely mediation. That's why Emily softened. You were saying that Emily would have been a better mother to a square like Rory. I didn't entirely agree. I cited this incident as an example of what their relationship would have been like, had they been mother and daughter.

[QUOTE]I just think that Rory is far more sensitive and compassionate than Lorelai[/QUOTE]

I don't. If Rory were truly that sensitive and compassionate, she wouldn't have let her mother writhe in misery at the Logan dinner. I think Rory and Emily are in the same league as far as sensitivity and compassion go (or lack thereof)

[QUOTE] and clearly she and Emily do get along much better than Lorelai and Emily.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. I mentioned this in my previous post as well.

[QUOTE]I'm not going to respond to your list of grievances because it's already established that you take everything Richard and Emily do in the worst possible light, [/QUOTE]

Again, completely false. It has nothing to do with me taking things in the worst possible light. I think Emily and Richard have behaved equally badly or worse than Lorelai on several occasions and I listed a couple and explained why. I also mentioned that I liked Emily in the banana bread scene, so I don't see how you can accurately say that I take EVERYTHING Emily and Richard do in the worst possible light. Simply not true.

[QUOTE]but I will say that their behavior at the Logan dinner wasn't an affront, it was silly [/QUOTE]

How is deliberately bringing Lorelai the wrong drink, purposely excluding her from the conversation, refusing to thank her when she "found" the jewelry box, snapping at her every time she attempts to take part in the conversation, interrupting her when she tries to say goodbye to the guest and generally treating her like a third-class citizen not an affront? This behaviour is more than silly; it's flat-out rude, cutting and cruel. I don't agree that it's only embarassing when the fight is out in the open (e.g. the Thanksgiving dinner). This subversive rudeness to Lorelai in front of a guest is equally bad.

[QUOTE](and Lorelai made herself the issue by whining about her drink[/QUOTE]

So politely saying this isn't the drink she asked for is "whining"? Good to know. I'm a vegetarian and if I were brought a meat dish, I would certainly send it back. Do you consider that whining? A hostess has an implicit obligation to bring her guest the drink she asked for. Otherwise, the question "what would you like to drink" is a hollow empty gesture. If Lorelai must drink everything she is given, why don't they just force-feed her vodka in an IV drip for heaven's sake?

[QUOTE]Similarly a wild spending spree at the mall is not an affront to Lorelai.[/QUOTE]

Your objection to the Thanksgiving dinner was that Lorelai embarassed her parents in front of guests. My objection to the spending spree is that Emily embarassed her daughter in front of the entire mall with her crazy behaviour. Same thing.

[QUOTE]And while you can have sympathy for Lorelai's eruption at that Thanksgiving, there's no question that it was in the worst of taste, and embarrassed strangers, who had no idea what was going on. [/QUOTE]

And there's no question that Emily and Richard's behaviour in all of the instances I've mentioned were also in the worst of taste and embarassed strangers, who had no idea what was going on. Was the behaviour bad? Yes, it was. But people are human and I can understand where Lorelai was coming from. And like I said, if R/E can excuse this behaviour in themselves, they can certainly excuse it in Lorelai.

Edited by sphyphys, May 6, 2005 @ 11:59 AM.

[sphyphys]

I don't agree with your opinion, but I don't think I'm reaching.

[quote]Lorelai wasn't trying to "out" her mother at that deposition-- we know that because she sought advice from Rory. [/quote]

No, she wasn't trying to "out" her mother. But practicing with Rory in a comfortable environment and answering difficult questions with a strange lawyer are two totally different things and I can understand why Lorelai was flustered.

[quote]she couldn't control her own wisecracking habits. [/quote]

Not true. She said some very nice things but we didn't get to hear them because Emily would rather focus on the negative.

[quote]She herself looked a little mortified when Emily read those sections back.[/quote]

She wasn't expecting Emily to have access to the deposition. That's why she was mortified. And for the record, I think it was extremely childish of Emily to read the deposition back to Lorelai and Rory. Under that circumstance, I think Lorelai would look mortified at any quote that said Emily was less than perfect.

[quote]it was obvious that Lorelai didn't live up to her own intentions. When flustered, she always wisecracks, she does it every time. [/quote]

No, she didn't live up to her intentions. But I don't think that makes her a bad person. She set herself a pretty high bar.

[quote]She knew to say things like "my mother is a perfectionist"-- she sought that kind of coaching from Rory-- and then she got in the room and indulged herself with jokes and smart alecky remarks. [/quote]

There's only so many times you can say "perfectionist" before being asked to elaborate. And again, Lorelai did not restrict herself to jokes and smart alecky remarks. There's evidence to the contrary; she said some nice things that Emily refused to read.

[quote]Even Lorelai knows that Ben Hur references are inappropriate in a legal deposition[/quote].

Yes, they are inappropriate. But I think she felt it was better than saying bluntly that her mother sucks.

[quote]Marmalade's song was popular in the seventies! [/quote]

And both Lorelai and the guests were alive in the seventies! Why wouldn't they know it? This song was referenced on Friends, which is extremely recent. Anway, a dinner with parents & friends does not have the same restrictions as a job interview. Some people like to be amused at dinner.

[quote]As for the dinner: Lorelai wasn't "writhing in agony," she was uncomfortable and had the wrong drink. Rory didn't need to bail her out.[/quote]

Considering the many times Lorelai has bailed Rory out, yes, she absolutely does need to reciprocate. This is her mother, for crying out loud who has done nothing but love and support her.

[QUOTE]Remember Lorelai invited herself to that dinner. And she had wanted Rory to do it! Often, as in this instance, Lorelai acts more like a child than her own daughter. [/QUOTE]

I fault Rory. Why didn't she bring Logan over to her house first? And I don't care that Lorelai invited herself; the minute Emily agreed to host her, she has an obligation to treat her decently.

[QUOTE]I don't see it as "agonizing" that she wasn't warmly welcomed into the conversation or had the wrong drink. Uncomfortable, sure, but Rory's saying something would only have made the situation worse. [/QUOTE]

I do see it as agonizing because I think it's cruel for a mother to treat her own child like that. It was so far from a warm welcome; she was being excluded as painfully as possible in her own family, in front of a guest. And Rory saying something like "hey, Logan, why don't you tell my mom about the QT party" would have made the situation worse?

[QUOTE]Unlike her mother, Rory knows when discretion is the greater part of valor.[/QUOTE]

No, Rory is a selfish, disloyal, ungrateful brat. It has nothing to do with being discreet. She could have nicely included her mother in the conversation rather than leave her out in the cold. That wouldn't have hurt anybody.

[QUOTE]Yes, whining about the drink is out of line-- we've been down this road before. Lorelai didn't just point out that the drink wasn't what she wanted, she did so several times and in an accusatory style. [/QUOTE]

It wasn't whining and it wasn't out of line. Emily was the one who kept the battle going. If she were a good hostess, she would have been attentive and gotten Lorelai the correct drink. If she made an honest mistake, she would have fixed it willingly. I think Lorelai was defensive because Emily was accusatory.

[QUOTE]It was rude and self-centered.[/QUOTE]

It's rude and self-centred to deliberately bring your guest the wrong drink and then stand around arguing instead of fixing it. Politely pointing out that she got the wrong drink is neither rude nor self-centred.

[QUOTE]But yes, I do think it's rude to openly contradict your host and go on doing so. You ask once about a correction, and then drop it. [/QUOTE]

But Emily was the one who refused to correct it and refused to drop it. If she had just fixed the drink or brought the correct drink in the first place, none of this would have happened.

[QUOTE]And a drink is really a trivial thing. Lorelai could easily make her own drink or accept the sidecar. [/QUOTE]

Yes, a drink is a trivial thing so Emily could have brought the right one in the first place instead of passive-aggresively acting out her hostility towards her daughter. If you bring the wrong drink, expect to be corrected. And since they made a point of serving requested drinks, no I don't think Lorelai should have to make her own or accept the sidecar.

[QUOTE]Her parents aren't bartenders expecting a tip. [/QUOTE]

So it all comes down to money. They're her hosts! The minute they ask "what would you like to drink", they have an obligation to serve her request.

[QUOTE]If I were a guest in someone's house and they made me the wrong drink, I'd probably just drink it rather than go on about it. [/QUOTE]

That's your choice and I understand that attitude. But I don't feel that Lorelai was wrong to say she got the wrong drink. And Emily was the one who went on about it.

[QUOTE]I would feel differently about it if Logan hadn't been there, but in this case, he was the point, and by harping about the drink Lorelai made him uncomfortable (as the strained comments about "the roast" really demonstrate).[/QUOTE]

Again, I think Emily began the battle and she was really the person who did the harping. She was the one who made Logan uncomfortable by treating her own daughter like a second-class citizen.

Edited by sphyphys, May 6, 2005 @ 12:31 PM.

[merlynn]

Marmalade's song was popular in the seventies!

Ok yes, but the movie Moulin Rouge with Nicole Kidman featured a remake of this song done by Christina Auglaria (sp?) and others. So a version of the song was playing at the time that episode aired.

Besides that it is one of the few french phrases I remember though I would have known better than to use it under those circumstances. I think Lorelai does joke more often than she should particularly when she is in uncomfortable situations. The best moments are when Emily plays off her joking. The two of them can be hilarious together. But while Emily sometimes could use more comedy in her life, Lorelai often has too much.

But hey, so what if Lorelai has flaws. Who cares? I don't think she would be as lovable if she didn't. I don't honestly believe you have to pick between liking Lorelai or liking Emily. I think coloring Emily as evil is extream, but that's because I save the word evil for far more grievious sins than anything I've seen Emily commit. Besides, I believe Lorelai and Emily both love each other but just have problems communicating that love. Like I said, I think they could be good friends if they could get past all their crap. So I see no need to chose between them because I don't see them as enemies.

[apgold]

Emily and Lorelai are a lot alike, no? From whom do you think Lorelai got her stinging sarcasm?

While I think Emily has gotten a lot less sympathetic this season (post ESH on) I always try to see things from her point of view, which is hard. Especially after her visit to Christopher - but Emily really thought she was doing the right thing for Lorelai.

When Lorelai rejected her TWICE for interfering with "You and Me, We're Done" and "Shut Up" - that must've really smarted. However, rather than examining her behavior and realizing that Lorelai didn't want her to interfere with her love life, Emily retreats and becomes more defensive.

Then when Lorelai shows up for FND only because Logan is there - Emily isn't going to welcome her daughter back with open arms -she's going to make her feel as uncomfortable as possible. Emily is hurt and rather than having it out openly with Lorelai, she engages in passive aggressive behavior.

I'm not trying to justify Emily's behavior but rather explain it.

Regarding Emily's disapproval of Luke - does anyone think if Lorelai sat her mother down and explained why she loves him and how good he is for her - would Emily listen? Would she be able to get past her own prejudices (that he's not from the right family, he's a filthy diner owner, etc) and just see him for the good man that he is?

[EllieJ]

Regarding Emily's disapproval of Luke - does anyone think if Lorelai sat her mother down and explained why she loves him and how good he is for her - would Emily listen? Would she be able to get past her own prejudices (that he's not from the right family, he's a filthy diner owner, etc) and just see him for the good man that he is?

See, this is my whole problem with the situation this season. Why doesn't Lorelai or Rory tell Emily what Luke has done for the both of them over the years? I don't know if that will help Emily deal with the situation or not, but I just hate watching Emily think that Luke is this giant neanderthal and no one defends him.

Before this season I really didn't think Emily would react the way that she did to Lorelai and Luke dating each other. I didn't think that she would throw a parade or anything, but she knew that there was something going on between them before they did, so where was the big surprise?

Emily has been a whole lot less sympathetic to me the last part of this season. In the past, I've always thought that there was enough blame to go around in their relationship. Lorelai doesn't share her life with Emily and Emily finds out and gets bitchy so that makes Lorelai even less inclined to talk with Emily. Lorelai uses humor as a defense mechanism against her mother's criticisms and her mother criticizes her more. It's a vicious circle.

Edited by EllieJ, May 6, 2005 @ 4:26 PM.

[3chords]

Regarding Emily's disapproval of Luke - does anyone think if Lorelai sat her mother down and explained why she loves him and how good he is for her - would Emily listen?

No, no, no and no.

I must have said this a billion times, so why not once more.

Emily's problem with Luke is not that he is poor (he isn't), not that he's not a nice guy (he is), not that he doesn't care for her daughter (he does greatly), not that he doesn't treat her family right (he adores them), not that he's a freeloader (he works hard), not that he's drifted in and out of her daughter's life leaving her in disarray (he's always been an anchor), etc. Her problem is that he is not in the same class as the Gilmores. That is IT. It is like the Hindu caste system for these people, you just do not intermarry, it's that simple.

So what difference does it make that Luke fixes the porch and cooks and wipes away Lorelai's tears? None of that will buy his way into the upper class, and that is what Emily cannot cope with.

Which is why she is a terribly backwards snob, but fairly representative of a subset of society which still operates in this way.

[3chords]

I also maintain that you can't expect your parents to change. That doesn't mean they get a free pass, but it *does* mean that children have to be the more flexible ones.

I disagree.

When you have a child, you have decided to bring a new person into the world. Lorelai did not ask to be born.

Therefore, it is incumbent upon the parents to show that child unconditional love, and try to respect the decisions they make in life. Emiliy does not love Lorelai unconditionally - that much has been certain since day one. She loves the idea of who she thinks Lorelai could be, and she can't cope with who she really is.

It's not incumbent upon a child to be "flexible" and understand at the age of 3, or 7, or 16, or 36 that their parents are inflexible, cruel and borderline bigots, but hey, at the end of the day, they're old school and always will be.

Emily certainly has the prerogative of remaining an old fool.

But then she should realize that Lorelai equally has the prerogative to finally extricate herself entirely from the family which at this point in time, causes her nothing but grief.

You make your bed, then you have to sleep in it.

[sphyphys]

'Ben Hur': Lorelai was under some stress when she made this reference. People respond to stress in different ways. Rory blushes and stares at the floor, Emily angrily attacks and Lorelai attempts to defuse the situation with a joke. All three are reasonable, human responses. I maintain that Lorelai meant no malice when she made the joke about Ben Hur; it was not a deliberate attempt to hurt her mother, just her way of dealing with a stressful situation. I don't consider this reaction any more juvenile or disgusting than Rory blushing and refusing to answer or Emily yelling and ranting. Lorelai had made it very clear that she would undergo the deposition but she would not lie under oath. Aside from the joke, her only option was to tell the blunt truth (that Emily runs her household like a tyrant) and she didn't want to say that. I think this was the best she could do under the circumstances. What I find truly disgusting and juvenile is that Emily forced Lorelai to depose for the sole purpose of watching her fail and rubbing that failure in her face. The lawyer was completely right with his theory that Emily imposes her impossible standards on people thereby causing them to fail and reinforcing her ideas of them. Emily knew what Lorelai thought of her re: maids; yet she forced Lor into a situation where she could not lie. Emily knew that Lorelai would probably say some unflattering truths; yet she retrieved the deposition (if you can't handle home truths, don't read them!) and read it out loud to L/R, making the forced visit even more awkward for both of them. That's the epitome of juvenile, disgusting behaviour.

Thanksgiving dinner: I don't deny that Lorelai's behaviour was immature and in poor taste. What I flatly disagree with is that it is unforgivable and did irreparable damage. People aren't perfect automatons. Sometimes they lose control, lose their temper and behave imperfectly. R/E have been guilty of this themselves several times. They have no reason to hold this against Lorelai because they have not always behaved perfectly themselves. It would be a completely hypocritical attitude on their part. If she can forgive them, they can forgive her. She can and has forgiven them several times. She was provoked at this dinner by Richard's past behaviour. Richard was excused for his rude behaviour at Rory's coming out because he was "under a lot of stress and not himself". Well, no one was provoking him at the party; he was under stress from the past. So was Lorelai.

Correcting one's host: Emily repeatedly and purposely brought her daughter the wrong drink, so she should expect to be corrected repeatedly. Lorelai was not out of line. The idea that she should just accept it in the name of "good manners" when someone (her own mother, no less) treats her like trash is totally unacceptable to me. Maybe some people are willing to be doormats or punching bags, but the fact that Lorelai chooses to fight back and preserve her dignity does not make her a rude person or a "whiner". A drink is a trivial thing but this goes beyond a drink. This was a subtle battle of wills between Lorelai and Emily. Everyone else received the drink they requested; why shouldn't Lorelai? Because Emily was treating her like a second-class citizen. Lorelai should not have to take that. I think she will be damned no matter what she does. Fixing her own drink is even ruder because it implies that Emily is incapable of making her a proper drink (which is true, but still rude). Leaving it undrunk is rude for the same reason. Drinking it is not OK because there is no reason why she should accept Emily's rudeness. No, Logan's presence is not a reason. If Emily had brought the correct drink or told Lorelai to make her own drink, there would be no discomfort. And I don't agree that Logan is a shrinking violet who was irrevocably scarred by Lorelai's seemingly innocuous question about booze at dinner. What's wrong with a simple "yes"? Who racheted up the discomfort level with her ridiculously hostile response? Her name starts with an E and ends with a 'mily'.