84 replies to this topic

[keckler]

I swear we had a topic dedicated to this subject but I'm sad to report that it must have fallen off the forum drop-off.

[cuiusquemodi]

Well, we should keep HoYay seperate from homosexuality. As much fun as HoYay is.

[keckler]

Yes, HoYay has a separate thread.

[cuiusquemodi]

I know it does, it's just that the post before my previous seemed to be more about HoYay and less about homosexuality (one which Star Trek has in bushels, the other seems to be lacking from canon).

[keckler]

I was agreeing with you, cuiusquemodi and reminding people about the HoYay thread.

[keckler]

Fascinating. I never heard that anecdote before. Does Whoopi go to conventions?

[Cleo256]

The closest we've ever come to that was perhaps TNG's "The Outcast."

What about DS9's "Rejoined"? I've always felt that was the better episode. Because, simultaneously, it's about homosexuality in the metaphor, but also it's about two women coming together romantically and no one batting an eye over their genders.

Trek, for all it's inclusive sensibilities, doesn't even recognize the possibility of same-gendered romantic relationships

I think the possibility is left open, in several off-handed lines throughout the series (but especially DS9). Although I suspect if one were tallying, the "man and woman" count would outnumber the "homosexuality is okay" count.

But the thing I finally understood the last time we discussed this is that gay people want to see their way of life still exists in the future. We all want that. People want to see themselves represented on TV. Because if we see people like ourselves on TV suddenly we're more "normal", which makes us feel better about ourselves and our way of life.

So the "homosexuality is okay" stuff isn't enough. Actual gay characters are wanted. I get that now.

[RiverThames]

And I can't stress it enough: Chimera. Odo and Laas openly do the Changeling-equivalent of intercourse. And both characters are played by male actors, so the primary complaint about "The Outcast" (that Soren was played by a woman) is removed.

Also, with "The Outcast", as much as people complain about that aspect of it, what does it say about Riker's sexuality? He openly went into a relationship with an individual who may have self-identified as female, but biologically was not. That's got to count for something.

Edited by RiverThames, Aug 14, 2004 @ 3:31 PM.

[alexmarsz]

So the "homosexuality is okay" stuff isn't enough. Actual gay characters are wanted. I get that now.

I don't.

Well, I take that back. I get that people want it. I respect their position. I have no problem with the request. But I don't join them in thinking it's an imperitive. Mainly because I think it amounts to a really really big request.

1. At the smallest level,have a few episodes, a few situations, where alternatives to the the "traditional" male/female relationship are shown and accepted. It's been done, that's where we are now. And some people are saying it's not enough.

2. So we need a repeat character. What if I were to tell you that Admiral Nechayev is a lesbian. You can't dispute it, right? We haven't seen her with a male partner. Of course, I'm just playing symantics here because we haven't seen her with a woman either. But that illustrates my point - it would have to be someone who repeats frequently enough for their romantic preferences to have been displayed.

At this point, the writers can't ignore that character's sexuality any time he/she is on screen, because they're always at risk of being accused of playing to / playing away from the stereotypes. To quote the about.com article that's been referenced before, lesbian Ezri is apparently not a good thing because

this all does happen in the Alternative Universe, where everything is understood to be evil, perverted, and basically inferior to our universe.

3. Let's suppose Garak was gay. Certainly I can see the character having gone there. I'm not convinced that would silence all critics - not by a long shot. He had a lot of negative qualities. And for crying out loud, he was a tailor. I'm sure someone would have been offended with him as a token gay character. Now they've offended those-who-we-never-seem-to-know-personally-yet-we-always-assume-they-exist, and those homophobes have stopped watching. No big loss says I, but if that doesn't placate the community they're trying to appease anyway, it hardly seems worth it.

4. So I guess we need a high-level, frequently-occurring, unquestionably good character. Like a captain. I would have no problem with a gay captain. Are they never going to have any romantic entanglements though? I suppose you could have a mostly-offscreen partner like Keiko was to Miles. But there were other potential/theoretical partners for O'Brien at times, so there should be for our theoretical person as well. Obviously dropping in a gay character on Planet X is going to seem like a contrievance. Plus, aren't you at risk of implying the stereotype that any two gay men are necessarily compatible? Maybe then we need gay characters that they're not interested in, to make it more special when two do meet.

In short, what I'm getting at is that you can't simply add a gay character without taking a lot of things into consideration and potentially changing any other plot line you want to have. I wouldn't have a problem with that, but I also don't have a problem with them wanting to ignore it.

I will say however that they dropped the ball on DS9 by creating a female founder when no natural sex organs exist for changelings anyway. Had they all been "male" like Odo, it would have made perfect sense plus been a friendly nod toward the idea that gender roles don't matter. Make the whole species like the people on Outcast, without the reverse-social-pressure of the J'naii. Then every time Odo linked with any changeling it would be like the meeting he had on Chimera.

ETA: I just have to add that as far as the "I want people like me" argument goes, ugly people are seriously underrepresented all over television but you don't hear me complaining.

Edited by alexmarsz, Aug 14, 2004 @ 4:23 PM.

[Gilmel]

I'm glad they didn't have just male changelings. There's enough underrepresentation of women in Trek anyway, which brings me to my point. I am a woman. I am repeatedly offended by the way they use or portray female characters on the various Treks (except for DS9). However, female characters are still there. I still get to see characters like me in that respect on the Trek screen. I'm frequently not happy with how I see them, but my straight femaleness is represented.

I think that it is imperative to have a homosexual, recurring human character on Trek, as long as that character is not a villain. I don't think the character needs to be a captain. I don't think the character necessarily needs to be a main cast member (though that would be nice), but she or he needs to be there and she or he really needs to be human. In all the other instances of same-sex relationships or sexual encounters, the characters have not been human: Trill, Changeling, whatever Soren was, but no humans.

So long as this character is not intentionally portrayed as evil or deviant or perverse, I see no reason to shy away. Yes, some people will be offended, but it will be a starting place from which to move forward and improve that character or future homosexual Trek characters. At this point in the game, the "we can't please everyone, so we want to maintain the non-representative status quo" just doesn't wash anymore. It's 2004 for the producers. It's 2150 for the characters. Get a move on already.

[alexias]

I don't know. I mean don't get me wrong I would love to see a gay cast member on any of the various Trek incarnations. Incidentally,the hottie helmsman from First Contact? Was made into a gay character in a Novel after the movie came out and we got to see his relationship with his partner be accepted and no big deal to the main crew.

But that's not on screen.

So yeah...I would like to see a gay recurring character sure. But for me what would be better, more meaningful, would be to see it in the background and just blend in. Have Bev and Troi sitting in ten forward chatting and in the background at the various tables there are all these couples, and one of them happens to be two men or two women holding hands across the table.

Or Kira is strolling through the Prominade saying hello to various couples and one of them happens to be a gay couple, or one half of a gay couple and she asks after the other.

This to me would go much much father then having "a very special episode" or one gay character. Because it would show that, truly, gay couples are an accepted, integrated part of the culture. And that for me is what was missing in Trek. Yeah I got the symbolism, and thanks for trying. In these days I know it is hard. So their attempts were appreciated. But this is how I would have liked to see them handle it.

[nelamm]

Re: Changelings. I'm not sure Laas is a good example. He came across as somewhat pushy sexually to me. Like he'd never linked with anyone, never having known another Changeling, and was desperate for anyone, gender notwithstanding.

As to the Female Changeling, it's possible they were trying to drag in Odo, and knew he had been conditioned (by being raised by [straight] solids) to be attracted to females.

I think alexias makes a good point. Furthermore, they're in a bit of a bind- to make an entire story out of something would imply that homosexuality is not considered "normal" in the future. So background- even as an aspect of a major character- is one thing, but portraying it as a source of conflict, etc. raises more issues.

Edited by nelamm, Aug 14, 2004 @ 11:17 PM.

[cuiusquemodi]

But then... I was always iffy about Changeling gender anyway. I mean, the reason Odo looks like he just woke up from the Matrix is because he wasn't raised amongst other changelings, better at assuming humanoid forms than he. The reason the female Changeling decided to make herself appear like Odo (as opposed to, say, a Bajoran female or Bolian male) is because Odo would appriciate the familiar face. What would have kept her from assuming a male form? Yes, Odo's humanoid form is male, but probably because his first exposure to humanoids was scientists, who, poltical correctness aside, are mostly a male group.

But then there was his attraction to Kira. I suppose being "raised" amongst Bajorans in a male form might imprint on him an attraction to females. I don't know enough of his backstory to comment on that.

But then, there is Changeling reproduction altogether, which is either asexual or sexual. If it's asexual, fine, they can be purely genderless. Asexual reproduction would also explain why no Changelings posessed a natural immunity to Section 31's virus, which one might expect some Changelings to have.

But I drift from the topic. I don't think Changelings are a good example for homosexuality because I think they are, in their liquid form (and thus, while linked) sexless.

Disclaimer: I am not a scientist, but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.

[Cleo256]

But then there was his attraction to Kira. I suppose being "raised" amongst Bajorans in a male form might imprint on him an attraction to females.

Odo technically has no sex. So that sort of makes him bisexual. Maybe he just liked Kira more than anyone else, and gender didn't really have anything to do with his attraction to her.

So I guess we need a high-level, frequently-occurring, unquestionably good character.

Not really. You just need one that's human, sympathetic, and flawed in the way most good characters are. Er, metaphorically human. Garak might not be the best choice because he is so morally grey and he doesn't want anyone to understand him.

Yes, some people will be offended, but it will be a starting place from which to move forward and improve that character or future homosexual Trek characters.

Exactly. For me, it always comes back to comparisons with Uhura on TOS. You show people a black woman on the bridge, or an openly gay character, or an interracial kiss, or a gay couple kissing, and it becomes more normal for them. If they accept it on TV, they'll come to accept it in life. You "break" them of thinking it's strange and something to hate by making these characters people they "know".

Edited by Cleo256, Aug 15, 2004 @ 12:26 AM.

[Gilmel]

You "break" them of thinking it's strange and something to hate

Or fear.

Edited by Gilmel, Aug 15, 2004 @ 12:28 AM.

[nelamm]

Odo being sexless notwithstanding, if he was raised in an environment that wasn't particularly open to homosexuality, I can see him being "conditioned," at least somewhat, into thinking he's only attracted to women.

He doesn't react that way to Laas, though. So maybe you're right, Cleo.

[cuiusquemodi]

Well, I can't really say I've seen much evidence supporting or refuting Bajoran homophobia. As in all cultures, I'm sure there are elements along all elements of the spectrum, but unfornitually, we have no way of knowing where the majority of Bajorans stand. Any culture made of sentients dependent on sexual reproduction would logically insist on heterosexuality, at least to some degree, for sheer perpetuation of the species.

[RiverThames]

It's been a while since I saw DS9's "Let He Who Is Without Sin..." (since it's awful), but isn't there the implication that Curzon Dax had had Vanessa Williams as a lover, and that as Jadzia Dax, neither of them would mind repeating that relationship. And Worf got all uppity accusing Jadzia of that as well.

And I would bet Risians are most likely all omnisexual.

[LadyBunbury]

I think most joined Trill would probably be fairly comfortable with gender-bending and experimenting with their sexual orientation. I mean, if I could remember being a man having sex with a woman and being a woman having sex with a man, I don't think it would actually be that big of a deal to *me* whether I was dating men or women. Being overly uptight about sex would probably be something the Symbiosis Commission wouldn't be looking for in its prospective hosts, even.

Ferengi are pragmatically bisexual as well. They've got a Rule of Acquisition about it.

Rule 11, in a society where women are not permitted to do just about anything, is "Always have sex with the boss."

(I think it's Rule 11, anyway. My copy of Legends of the Ferengi is sadly upstairs somewhere.)

[cuiusquemodi]

You know... I'd never thought of it that way. Maybe by "sex," they mean oo-mox. That's... less squicky.

[Divaah46]

It's still giving someone of your own gender an orgasm. That's something most heterosexual humans are very uneasy about, to say the least.

[AdamMethos]

LOL! You think the writers intended that interpretation of the Rule, or is it just a fortituous fanwank? (I tend to think the latter, but still, hee! I wonder if Quark ever "serviced" the Nagus...)

[pennyq]

I wonder if Quark ever "serviced" the Nagus...

Ew.

Not because it's gay sex, but because it's the Nagus. Ew.

I guess I feel about homosexuality the same way I feel about yogurt. Icky for me, but if anyone else wants it, that's cool. And I'm certainly not grossed out by yogurt commercials, although the Nagus eating yogurt might gross me out. You know, I think the Nagus's existence grosses me out. Anyway...

[Cleo256]

Technically that rule is non-canon, and it's #113. It was in the Rules of Acquisition book. The authors of that book were Armin Shimerman and Ira Behr, though, which lends it some validity.

[nelamm]

Was the book written after we learned how Ferengi women were treated?

Edited by nelamm, Aug 15, 2004 @ 8:19 PM.

[AdamMethos]

I think the first Ferengi ep on TNG had them exclaiming, "You clothe your females???" which would seem to indicate that women didn't have a high standing in their society.

[Elenita]

This will probably change the tone of the discussion, but...

Rule 11, in a society where women are not permitted to do just about anything, is "Always have sex with the boss."

I always thought that Rule was, "Never have sex with the boss' sister". Or alternately, "Always suck up to the boss". Can somebody double-check?

[Harrison Fjord]

I don't know the numbers, but the rules you're thinking of, Elenita are:

"It never hurts to suck up to the boss!"

and then the one-two punch of:

"Never have sex with the boss' sister."

"Always have sex with the boss."