The intent of this thread is to give us a chance to critique and debate such issues as continuity of characterization, plot lines and relationships. It is different from the character and relationship threads because rather than discusing what we like or don't like or whether a character or relationship is good or bad we will consider the writing, the flow, the continuity, or perhaps the greater context (i.e. what it says about violence, aging, male or female sterotypes etc). So for example we could discuss whether Romano as presented this season was written in character, i.e. would, given what we knew about Romano, he behave the way he did after losing his arm or was he altered to make him leaving more palatable. Leaving out such ideas as whether he was good or bad or we liked him or not, was it a plausable presentaiton of his character. Or we could discuss relationships. The inspiration for this thread was the discussion surrounding Sam and Steve's relationship on the Drive thread. But unlike the relationship thread, rather than looking at who is bad or good Steve or Sam we could consider the logical construction of their relationship, did it hang together or not, if not why, if it did why, etc. Or we could discuss plot points in general, what about all the violence this season, was it more than usual or not what was the inferences made etc. In other words, we're the critics as if we were critiquing a book or a movie, in this case we're applying the rules to a television show and letting tptb know if they're hitting the mark or not. It differs from the are you turned off thread and the tptb thread because again we're looking at the specifics of the writing more than anything else, although the acting/delivery could come into play or even the blocking. In fact it might be possible to say that a character is unevenly written, but we still like that character etc. Or a well written character might be disliked. In other words, in this thread it's all about the writing, mechanics, the flow and the continuity. In other words the big picture.
I'm wondering how others are seeing this season in terms of continuity. For me that's been a problem with the season. Romano becomes a caricature of himself IMO to make killing him off easier. Kerry has become a Romano/Weaver amalgamation. She took on the functions of the Romano character as well as maintained some of her old self. I liked the Africa arc, but if Luka didn't know how he's changed, I sure don't either. I've enjoyed Abby's revitalization. Pratt still seems to be Pratt for better or worse. After recently watching season one, I find it hard to believe Susan would rush into getting pregnant if she weren't sure about her relationship. All in all it seems to me like half the time tptb come up with the storylines first this season instead of generating the storylines from the characters. And I think that can lead to big trouble. I have a friend who just wrote a book and told me how there were times she couldn't get her characters to do things she had thought she would have them do, and that she'd read in a book by Steven King, that he develops characters first, then puts them in a situation and writes how he thinks they'd react.
Hope some of this makes sense, and that we can have some enjoyable debates!! All seasons are fair game, although this one is probably a good one to start with ; )
ER
Started by
Californiagirl
, May 22 2004 12:13 AM
17188 replies to this topic
#1
Posted May 22, 2004 @ 12:13 AM
#2
Posted May 22, 2004 @ 9:20 AM
I'm still trying to figure out the substantive changes in the show given the change in show-runner from Orman (All hail Carter!) to Chulack and how John Wells plays into all this.
I wish they had valued the Romano character more. I thought that they could have done so much more last year with showing how he coped, or didn't cope with the loss of his arm and hence his indentity. I wish they would get a better handle on Kerry and not just use her as a stereotype and then give Kerry a few brief moments of humanity where LI shows how well she can act.
I think breaking up Carter and Abby and returning Abby to medical school was definitely a good move for both charcters. Abby had been spinning her wheels for over a year and the character was getting increasingly unlikable. And NW's decision to take time off was probably good for the show as it forced other characters to be more in the limelight.
One good thing this year was the introduction of Neela, who is smart and capable but not as arrogant as Pratt. She came on quiet but the character has been building well through the year. (Except in the finale where she was just boring, but I've never been a fan of Dee Johnson.)
I don't think they could do much about Susan's pregnancy, as they couldn't about Elizabeth's or Chen's. Sometimes real life has a way of messing up the best laid plans.
I wish they had valued the Romano character more. I thought that they could have done so much more last year with showing how he coped, or didn't cope with the loss of his arm and hence his indentity. I wish they would get a better handle on Kerry and not just use her as a stereotype and then give Kerry a few brief moments of humanity where LI shows how well she can act.
I think breaking up Carter and Abby and returning Abby to medical school was definitely a good move for both charcters. Abby had been spinning her wheels for over a year and the character was getting increasingly unlikable. And NW's decision to take time off was probably good for the show as it forced other characters to be more in the limelight.
One good thing this year was the introduction of Neela, who is smart and capable but not as arrogant as Pratt. She came on quiet but the character has been building well through the year. (Except in the finale where she was just boring, but I've never been a fan of Dee Johnson.)
I don't think they could do much about Susan's pregnancy, as they couldn't about Elizabeth's or Chen's. Sometimes real life has a way of messing up the best laid plans.
#3
Posted May 22, 2004 @ 10:50 AM
Nice idea, CG. AFAICT the shift to Chulack came with the overall mission statement to get the show out of the stagnation Orman had left it in, taking into account the contingencies of Wyle's LOA and Wells' intro of new actresses. (Also, later on, Stringfield's pregnancy.) What seems to have been left untouched is the problem of cast bloat: and moving the show out of a stagnant period may have taken on a new format as the show's contract was extended. Not sure that's a good thing, BTW.
The principal cause of the stagnation IMO was the Triangle, which appears to have dragged on in S9 not least because of the uncertainty about whether S10 was the last season. (Personally it brings me out in hives just thinking about it but had S10 been the last season, there's no doubt in my mind it would have ended with Carter and Abby married.)
Now Chulack has solved the Triangle, but at the price of more cast bloat. The timing and then the covering of Wyle's LOA was neatly done by bringing back Romano for a second visitation of the helicopter: not only do I think that was adroit, I think it was well done. Same with losing Gallant.
The Africa arc flattered to deceive, IMO: I suppose Orman may have had ideas that Chulack ditched while importing some of his own, but we will never know and judging from the POV of the end of the season, the Congo was a pointless diversion. Considering how Wells has had his work cut out to save TWW from its Sorkin-induced coma, I was surprised to see how many episodes he was involved in, and if as early interviews suggested, Wells personally hired Nagra and Cardellini, then he's had a big input this year: unfortunately there's no way of finding out what it was in plot or direction terms.
I think some things had to be done because the show could not go on as it was, but I have misgivings about the future. It's possible Scott Gemmill's show on Fox will work, he will be replaced by new talent and the writing team will revive. There have been some good finds in recent years. Whether the team has confidence to use them is another matter: for the first time in years the show has not had a formally experimental episode like The Crossing, Four Corners, Hindsight, Night and Day - episodes that showed the show had confidence in itself and some artistic and imaginative confidence. It's a much more conventional show in many ways, and that has IMO diminished it. Related, but in a way I can't work out as I type, it wierds me out that I can't remember a single medical case this year, or many character plots that involved medical cases> Now that really does worry me. The workplace could have been a copshop for all the difference the ER made.
Otherwise, on the whole, Chulack (and maybe Wells) were better at diagnosing the problems than fixing them, IMO. The cast is still acquiring new members, all of whom are playing characters that we have seen before: Nu-Harper Tracy, Nu-Lucy, Nu-Abby, Nu-Malucci (ish). Not a good omen if the new actors are playing refurbishd old characters. BTW the sexism in the writing of the new women characters also troubles me.
Nor is it agood omen if the established cast are basically in the same place at the season's end as they were at the start. Only Abby, and possibly Weaver, have moved on, IMO. The characters have also divided into winners and losers, and ironically IMO considering how much time and effort were put into their plots, Carter and Luka have been at the top of that list for me (it's not all Wyle's fault).
The finale doesn't hold out much promise of movement forward for the show as a whole, and brings me to a final question to which we may get the answer only in hindsight. It's been on the record that TPTB had a 10 season plan for the show/Carter. Now the show is S11, maybe S12, who knows after that. What does that mean for the Ten Year Plan? Does it get dumped? stretched with a lot of added filler? torn up and re-written? Indeed, does the show have a long-term plan or an overarching story to tell at all anymore?
The principal cause of the stagnation IMO was the Triangle, which appears to have dragged on in S9 not least because of the uncertainty about whether S10 was the last season. (Personally it brings me out in hives just thinking about it but had S10 been the last season, there's no doubt in my mind it would have ended with Carter and Abby married.)
Now Chulack has solved the Triangle, but at the price of more cast bloat. The timing and then the covering of Wyle's LOA was neatly done by bringing back Romano for a second visitation of the helicopter: not only do I think that was adroit, I think it was well done. Same with losing Gallant.
The Africa arc flattered to deceive, IMO: I suppose Orman may have had ideas that Chulack ditched while importing some of his own, but we will never know and judging from the POV of the end of the season, the Congo was a pointless diversion. Considering how Wells has had his work cut out to save TWW from its Sorkin-induced coma, I was surprised to see how many episodes he was involved in, and if as early interviews suggested, Wells personally hired Nagra and Cardellini, then he's had a big input this year: unfortunately there's no way of finding out what it was in plot or direction terms.
I think some things had to be done because the show could not go on as it was, but I have misgivings about the future. It's possible Scott Gemmill's show on Fox will work, he will be replaced by new talent and the writing team will revive. There have been some good finds in recent years. Whether the team has confidence to use them is another matter: for the first time in years the show has not had a formally experimental episode like The Crossing, Four Corners, Hindsight, Night and Day - episodes that showed the show had confidence in itself and some artistic and imaginative confidence. It's a much more conventional show in many ways, and that has IMO diminished it. Related, but in a way I can't work out as I type, it wierds me out that I can't remember a single medical case this year, or many character plots that involved medical cases> Now that really does worry me. The workplace could have been a copshop for all the difference the ER made.
Otherwise, on the whole, Chulack (and maybe Wells) were better at diagnosing the problems than fixing them, IMO. The cast is still acquiring new members, all of whom are playing characters that we have seen before: Nu-Harper Tracy, Nu-Lucy, Nu-Abby, Nu-Malucci (ish). Not a good omen if the new actors are playing refurbishd old characters. BTW the sexism in the writing of the new women characters also troubles me.
Nor is it agood omen if the established cast are basically in the same place at the season's end as they were at the start. Only Abby, and possibly Weaver, have moved on, IMO. The characters have also divided into winners and losers, and ironically IMO considering how much time and effort were put into their plots, Carter and Luka have been at the top of that list for me (it's not all Wyle's fault).
The finale doesn't hold out much promise of movement forward for the show as a whole, and brings me to a final question to which we may get the answer only in hindsight. It's been on the record that TPTB had a 10 season plan for the show/Carter. Now the show is S11, maybe S12, who knows after that. What does that mean for the Ten Year Plan? Does it get dumped? stretched with a lot of added filler? torn up and re-written? Indeed, does the show have a long-term plan or an overarching story to tell at all anymore?
#4
Posted May 22, 2004 @ 11:07 AM
Can we really blame the writer for the season finale though? Granted Dee Johnson wrote it but you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear and I submit that as the season ended Dee Johnson had a sow's ear on her hands due to decisons primarily made by Chulack throughout the year.
I mean what struck me about the season finale, which I did cave in and watch, is how unhappy all these characters are. What happened to Luka's life changing experience in the Congo that was supposed to turn the character aroundl? But of course how could they end the season with humor and happiness and romance when you consider the tragedy fest that ER has become.
I also think Chulack had to choose Pratt and Chen as the season finale cliffhanger out of a process of elimination because when he looked around he noticed that due to his anything for a ratings stunt decisions this year the other characters were too busy in the midst of their own detiorating personal lives for it to be plausible that they would now be involved in a car crash as well. And since Chulack did want to go out once again with violence he hastily threw together this Pratt and Chen thing which no one cares about one way or the other.
I mean what struck me about the season finale, which I did cave in and watch, is how unhappy all these characters are. What happened to Luka's life changing experience in the Congo that was supposed to turn the character aroundl? But of course how could they end the season with humor and happiness and romance when you consider the tragedy fest that ER has become.
I also think Chulack had to choose Pratt and Chen as the season finale cliffhanger out of a process of elimination because when he looked around he noticed that due to his anything for a ratings stunt decisions this year the other characters were too busy in the midst of their own detiorating personal lives for it to be plausible that they would now be involved in a car crash as well. And since Chulack did want to go out once again with violence he hastily threw together this Pratt and Chen thing which no one cares about one way or the other.
Edited by KathyV, May 22, 2004 @ 11:36 AM.
#5
Posted May 22, 2004 @ 11:08 AM
I think the character of Sam has John Wells stamped all over her. The tough nurse with a heart of gold, a direct line from Colleen McMurphy (China Beach), down through Abby and Gillian.
Given that the show was extended from 10 season to at least 12, I'm wondering how much of the past two years was just filler, especially for Carter and Luka. (Given the shift from Luby to Carby at the end of season 8, I'm not ruling out season 9 Carby was marking time.) I guess we won't know until the next season whether these story lines have a point or are just filling time.
I'm not sure I agree about not experimenting any more. I think the two Congo episodes, while preachy, were better than the usual road episodes that Mark, Doug and Benton got (and gave GV some real acting to do). Doing an entire episode from the NICU was also different, and IMO it was one of the best of the season.
The finale was one of the worst in years. Chulack isn't a writer and John Wells wrote the previous episode Midnight. But it was a mistake to give it to Dee Johnson.
I will be surprised if some of the regular faces aren't missing next year. (Now that Neela and Abby are interns, there is a redundancy is having Susan, Chen and Elizabeth all attendings.) But I've been surprised before.
Given that the show was extended from 10 season to at least 12, I'm wondering how much of the past two years was just filler, especially for Carter and Luka. (Given the shift from Luby to Carby at the end of season 8, I'm not ruling out season 9 Carby was marking time.) I guess we won't know until the next season whether these story lines have a point or are just filling time.
I'm not sure I agree about not experimenting any more. I think the two Congo episodes, while preachy, were better than the usual road episodes that Mark, Doug and Benton got (and gave GV some real acting to do). Doing an entire episode from the NICU was also different, and IMO it was one of the best of the season.
The finale was one of the worst in years. Chulack isn't a writer and John Wells wrote the previous episode Midnight. But it was a mistake to give it to Dee Johnson.
I will be surprised if some of the regular faces aren't missing next year. (Now that Neela and Abby are interns, there is a redundancy is having Susan, Chen and Elizabeth all attendings.) But I've been surprised before.
#6
Posted May 22, 2004 @ 12:07 PM
Sometimes it does seem that cast bloat is a major problem with ER. However, it seems to me when watching the oldest episodes that there were just as many characters milling about. I suspect one reason we notice cast bloat is that while there has always been some time devoted to a set number of specific characters, that set number might be higher. We notice often how ER once had a whole lotta nurses on it, and while they weren't all on every episode, and we didn't get episode after episode after episode that deal with every one of them, there was siginificant time allowed on the show to nod to each nurse from time to time in a way that doesn't occur much now. Basically, it feels now that we have one supernurse, which has always been true, but besides that one supernurse, we basically only have one or two other nurses on any given episode and often, they hardly get a nod.
The show has - some true fanatic will know exactly how much - fewer minutes per episode now due to more commercial time being used, but it isn't so dramatic that it can account for the show seeming to have insufficient time for all characters to matter. Yet, I get the feeling the reason we notice cast bloat is that there is actually too much effort to highlight more about every character (excluding all nurses but supernurse). Instead of having one or two big stories with lots of little stories on the side, the show seems to focus now upon several big stories that go on and on and few little stories on the side. If that's true, if it's important that a greater number of the characters have significant stories, then it's no wonder it feels like there is cast bloat. There simply cannot be enough time to highlight every single character and not feel like someone somewhere (imo, even the general nursing staff) is getting robbed. The show feels like it's all about several major stories and not about all the patients coming and going, and the staff as a whole made of many parts, many smaller stories. Example: Lydia is just a nurse. Not a supernurse. But her becoming engaged, and much later her marriage, were fit into the show and didn't seem to rob it of anything.
I don't know. Perhaps I'm wrong about it. It's just that it seems to me we are balancing too many "important stories" now and we don't get to see the minor players (nurses, janitors, patients) in the same quantity. Because we don't get to see the minor characters, but we know they exist (or we know they should) it makes it feel like the cast is bloated. Perhaps it isn't the cast that is bloated, but the stories being told, or the need to emphasize so many personal lives in such long storylines.
The show has - some true fanatic will know exactly how much - fewer minutes per episode now due to more commercial time being used, but it isn't so dramatic that it can account for the show seeming to have insufficient time for all characters to matter. Yet, I get the feeling the reason we notice cast bloat is that there is actually too much effort to highlight more about every character (excluding all nurses but supernurse). Instead of having one or two big stories with lots of little stories on the side, the show seems to focus now upon several big stories that go on and on and few little stories on the side. If that's true, if it's important that a greater number of the characters have significant stories, then it's no wonder it feels like there is cast bloat. There simply cannot be enough time to highlight every single character and not feel like someone somewhere (imo, even the general nursing staff) is getting robbed. The show feels like it's all about several major stories and not about all the patients coming and going, and the staff as a whole made of many parts, many smaller stories. Example: Lydia is just a nurse. Not a supernurse. But her becoming engaged, and much later her marriage, were fit into the show and didn't seem to rob it of anything.
I don't know. Perhaps I'm wrong about it. It's just that it seems to me we are balancing too many "important stories" now and we don't get to see the minor players (nurses, janitors, patients) in the same quantity. Because we don't get to see the minor characters, but we know they exist (or we know they should) it makes it feel like the cast is bloated. Perhaps it isn't the cast that is bloated, but the stories being told, or the need to emphasize so many personal lives in such long storylines.
#7
Posted May 22, 2004 @ 12:13 PM
Well... from a writing standpoint, there hasn't been a good flow this season at all. The Luka Congo arc had to be resolved but it led to the early season being cut up. It was also obvious that Neela, and to a lesser extent Sam, were added in and then no one had any idea what to do with them. Neela went from bright and fun to weepy andecisive and I never really saw where that came from (It seemed like NICU onward turned Neela into an unattractive mess) Similarly, Sam - well, more so Alex underwent a revision. A lot of the spoilers surrounding Alex and his creepy behavior were toned way down or dropped and it is noticable.
I didn't find Romano to badly done at all. I do think Romano was boxed into a corner from the previous season but his behavior - increasingly bitter and nasty, seemed consistent. Likewise, I didn't see Weaver as being badly written but I wish that the baby storyline hadn't been dropped into our laps. That was badly done especially since the last time we had seen Sandy had been Sandy protesting getting knocked up.
I didn't find Romano to badly done at all. I do think Romano was boxed into a corner from the previous season but his behavior - increasingly bitter and nasty, seemed consistent. Likewise, I didn't see Weaver as being badly written but I wish that the baby storyline hadn't been dropped into our laps. That was badly done especially since the last time we had seen Sandy had been Sandy protesting getting knocked up.
#8
Posted May 22, 2004 @ 12:52 PM
I think the 10 year plan has been replaced by the "we need to attract a younger audience so we can appeal to the advertisers" plan. The problem though is that as I see it you attract younger viewers by adding younger actors to the cast that they've enjoyed in other roles. Linda Candellini for example in Freeks and Geeks or Scott Grimes in Band of Brothers.
But after that when it comes to creating the character for the young actor to portray or creating the future storylines for the show there I don't think age is a factor. I don't thnk there is such a thing for example as a young person's script as opposed to a person in their 40's. You either create intriguing and believable characters and plots and storylines or you don't.
And yet this season when you look at the vomiting, Alex running around with a man's severed middle finger, people setting themselves on fire, helicopters, severed body parts played for laughs and Morris I am sensing that ER has decided that young people want action and gross out stuff. And granted, people Alex's age do want that. But people in their 20's who are now in the work world or in graduate school or maybe married and raising a child do people like that actually come home from the stress of their lives and eagerly flip on their TV sets clapping eagerly because ""Oh can you believe it they've brought me a tank. How did they know? Its just what I've been asking for" , I mean maybe there are viewers for whom things like that are a big treat but if so I don't think their chronological age is the deciding factor.
But after that when it comes to creating the character for the young actor to portray or creating the future storylines for the show there I don't think age is a factor. I don't thnk there is such a thing for example as a young person's script as opposed to a person in their 40's. You either create intriguing and believable characters and plots and storylines or you don't.
And yet this season when you look at the vomiting, Alex running around with a man's severed middle finger, people setting themselves on fire, helicopters, severed body parts played for laughs and Morris I am sensing that ER has decided that young people want action and gross out stuff. And granted, people Alex's age do want that. But people in their 20's who are now in the work world or in graduate school or maybe married and raising a child do people like that actually come home from the stress of their lives and eagerly flip on their TV sets clapping eagerly because ""Oh can you believe it they've brought me a tank. How did they know? Its just what I've been asking for" , I mean maybe there are viewers for whom things like that are a big treat but if so I don't think their chronological age is the deciding factor.
Edited by KathyV, May 22, 2004 @ 12:56 PM.
#9
Posted May 22, 2004 @ 3:52 PM
I think the 10 year plan has been replaced by the "we need to attract a younger audience so we can appeal to the advertisers" plan
As a totally old school ER fan (and in that sense a fan of the old school ER: I haven't really *liked* the show since about season five, but I still occasionally watch it for social reasons) I have to seriously doubt there was ever a 10-year plan. You have to remember how much this cast has fluctuated over the years. Storylines have been dropped and added due to actors signing contracts/not signing contracts/making personal requests/etc. There have been massive cast departures/additions over the past four years.
If I can think off the top of my head over storylines that were interrupted due to other plans, I have a bunch. Back in the day, Eriq La Salle ended the Benton/Corday romance due to racial concerns. Noah Wyle ended the Lucy/Carter romance because he didn't think it fit with his character, and this in turn probably drastically changed the role of Lucy Knight in the show. The writers intended a Luka/Carol romance because they thought Julianna would sign a new contract, but had to scrap this when she didn't. This in turn followed rumours that George Clooney was originally suppossed to make appearances during that season, but didn't because Anthony Edwards told him it would be 'bad for the show." (This has never really been clarified, but given that Anthony Edwards was very snotty about people leaving the show at that point, it's plausible. If it's true, then the writers were slightly thwarted in their plans). Ming Na and Sherry's pregnancies definitely dragged in storylines that probably wouldn't have been written otherwise. (I'm not including Alex's pregnancy here because she had been doing in-vitro for a while before she got pregnant, and the writers likely knew what was going on and planned for it). I highly suspect that Cleo was cast as Benton's love interest because La Salle requested it, though I have no proof of this. Both Gloria Reuben and George Clooney requested that their characters not be killed off. I think some of the recent cast departures over the years (Sherry Stringfield initially, Gloria Reuben, Kellie Martin, Maria Bello) and may have closed off thigns the writers planned. In Maria Bello's case, she departed over the summer and a whole bunch of cliffhangers concerning her character dissapeared. (Can you imagine what it might have been like if she stayed? Carter may have ended up having a nice, stable relationship with a woman who had her head on halway straight. If only).
What is my point in this? That even if there were anything resembling a 10-year plan that other circumstances have gotten in the way. Even if we're just talking about a 10-year plan for Carter plans have been thwarted several times. I can tell you that way back when Lucy Knight (Kellie Martin) was cast a major complaint was that the writers were trying to attract younger audiences. And that was 5 years ago!
I think they've been flying by the seats of their pants for a long time. The cast is too fluid (and in a lot of cases, too demanding) to have any sort of plan set in place. As for me, I think the show changed tone radically in the fifth season. It became darker, more melodramatic. The characters stopped knowing how to have fun with themselves. In the earlier seasons you got a sense of these people as just normal co-workers -- now in many cases they're sad sacks embroiled in personal tragedy after personal tragedy. I actually think this is directly related to the fact that they can't/won't date outside of the main cast unless they are going through a hooker phase. In the past, many of the characters dated people outside of the hospital or hooked up with supporting/recurring characters. This way their personal lives didn't take over yet there were still lots of people milling around, and the supporting cast got some good bits. When the romances ended, the supporting characters simply dissapeared, but while they were around, they were woven into the medical side pretty well.
I'm not sure if this helps any of you. I'm sure most people on here started watching way after the earlier seasons. They like the pathos and the triangles and don't remember how things were in the early days. I just don't think there has been a structure in place for this show for a very, very long time.
#10
Posted May 22, 2004 @ 4:39 PM
Popculturenerd, Wow! Very insightful and well said. I did start watching myself at the end of season 6 and I do like angst and tragedy which is why the Carter/Lucy stabbing and Carter's subsequent drug abuse hooked me but everyone has their inevitable saturation point and I reached mine this year.
#11
Posted May 22, 2004 @ 6:44 PM
I also loved the early seasons of ER. There was no feeling of rushing to some melodramatic event. The characters seemed real and if something dramatic happened, you felt that it was within the realm of believability. Now everything seems so contrived--it's as if the writers are picking a dramatic event, such as Carter's baby death, and then going back to write an totally unconvincing relationship. It's makes one wonder if they have a room of writer trainees doing some sort of assembly line writing.
#12
Posted May 22, 2004 @ 8:21 PM
Well said, Houstongal, about early seasons not rushing to melodramatic events. Stories were indeed a bit more realistic even when ultra-dramatic. ER, as all shows that live a long life, has evolved.
For better or worse, shows that live on and on often do evolve, and certainly a great bit of that evolution is bound to occur when actors around whom a great deal of writing is centered must be replaced. Example: While we saw GV brought in with lots of hullabaloo and hype that he was replacing GC, the truth is that Luka Kovac didn't replace Doug Ross. He was an entirely different character. They could try to write Luka and Carol as the new couple, but it would never carry the same "feel" as D/C, and that change alone was one form of evolution. Then when JM left, more evolution took place.
Certainly ever story begun can change on it's way to it's end as well, whether because it isn't working by writers' standards, by viewer's standards, by departure of an actor or just because another idea cropped up. As time moves on, everything about ER changes. Some for change's sake and some because it's right or it's necessary.
I do think ER isn't the show it was originally. I loved that show. But I still tune in because I have different interests in it now. It's as if I enjoyed the kind of writing that existed in the beginning and then tired of it, and when certain changes took place, it pulled me back in but for different reasons.
For better or worse, shows that live on and on often do evolve, and certainly a great bit of that evolution is bound to occur when actors around whom a great deal of writing is centered must be replaced. Example: While we saw GV brought in with lots of hullabaloo and hype that he was replacing GC, the truth is that Luka Kovac didn't replace Doug Ross. He was an entirely different character. They could try to write Luka and Carol as the new couple, but it would never carry the same "feel" as D/C, and that change alone was one form of evolution. Then when JM left, more evolution took place.
Certainly ever story begun can change on it's way to it's end as well, whether because it isn't working by writers' standards, by viewer's standards, by departure of an actor or just because another idea cropped up. As time moves on, everything about ER changes. Some for change's sake and some because it's right or it's necessary.
I do think ER isn't the show it was originally. I loved that show. But I still tune in because I have different interests in it now. It's as if I enjoyed the kind of writing that existed in the beginning and then tired of it, and when certain changes took place, it pulled me back in but for different reasons.
Edited by myshiloh, May 22, 2004 @ 8:22 PM.
#13
Posted May 22, 2004 @ 11:36 PM
Actually got hooked in season 7 because I felt the characters were really explored very deeply, and that the writing was good for the most part. I think that the youth factor is in play. I suspect tptb felt that it would take too much time/effort to do Romano's story justice and wanted to make room for the new characters so he was axed. I wonder if the current cast bloat isn't to make room for an exodus of the older players, and I think in the earlier seasons there were more characters that had a fair amount of screen time but weren't technically main cast i.e. Choloe, Jeannie,Harper, Kerry, to start with anyway.
One thing that I think they did well before with the exception of Div is to write the minor characters well and consistently. Even plot devices like Alex and Steve need to be written consistently. And as pointed out above Alex seems to have been toned down. It may be for the best, but it's hard to get a handle on things when they change. And since these type of chacters are really there to shed light on the main characters (I think) it's important they be written coherently. Gillian in my mind is a great example of a character that acted as a plot contrivance in many ways but because she was consistently written and well played she felt like a character and enhanced rather than detracted from the stories she was involved in.
One thing that I think they did well before with the exception of Div is to write the minor characters well and consistently. Even plot devices like Alex and Steve need to be written consistently. And as pointed out above Alex seems to have been toned down. It may be for the best, but it's hard to get a handle on things when they change. And since these type of chacters are really there to shed light on the main characters (I think) it's important they be written coherently. Gillian in my mind is a great example of a character that acted as a plot contrivance in many ways but because she was consistently written and well played she felt like a character and enhanced rather than detracted from the stories she was involved in.
#14
Posted May 23, 2004 @ 1:53 AM
popculturenerd, Wells has said repeatedly in interviews that there is/was a 10 year plan and that it revolved around Carter. Don't have the links - that computer is now in silicon heaven - but a google should turn something up. Now I agree with you that a 10 year plan cannot taking account of the actors/writers' plans, but it is possible to make a long-term, life of show, arc that incorporates contingency planning if X or Y happens and decides to leave: Buffy and Voyager come to mind.
It's also possible to Bob that plan - though IIRC it was still reffed in pre-S9 interviews - but here's the thing. If you know, somewhere in the back of your mind, that a show has a plan, then you are watching it expecting it to end by giving you a sense of closure: the plots are resolved, the characters inner lives and torments are resolved, and the whole world of the show comes to a conclusion. Without a plan, a show just goes on until it stops at any old place in the narrative. One's a resolution: the other's random. Switching from resolution to random feels like a cheat.
(I'ts fair to say that my personal ideal 10 year Carter plan shifted over the years and for some seasons has been to have him carted away to rot in jail for stealing drugs and killing somebody when high: YMMV)
Kathy I agree with you that a writer can only play the hand they're dealt, and that for all we know Dee Johnson smiled through the pain as her better ideas for the finale were trampled by Chulack. Yet that ep displayed many of her characteristic traits: was her contribution only the manner and not the matter, so to speak? I can believe that there's a trade off between writers and producers inputs on a sliding scale that tips in the producers benefit in the finale: nevertheless IMO her fingerprints are all over that episode WRT plotting nevertheless.
It's also fair to say that Chulack - who was one of the big producer guys on the show in the first seasons - could only play the hand he was dealt by Orman. Now if I'd wanted to make another three-plus seasons of ER, I wouldn't want to start from there.
Nevertheless, agree with KaraThrace that this season has not flowed and that there is plenty of evidence that there has been a great deal of mind-changing about what to do with various plots and characters.
I disagree Katalyn,about the experimental eps as location shoots (Congo, NICU, hyperbaric chamber) are not what I'd class as formal storytelling experiments. The show's always done road trips and eps elsewhere (hospital or storm drains, collapsed buildings, etc). Just as it's always done melodrama and personal angst and frankly-not-especially believable stories at sweeps time: the season 1 finale, Hell and High water, Union Station, Exodus (etc). But at least three of those were seasons where Chulack was involved as producer, so is anybody surprised he's continuing as he began?
ed because conjunctions make a difference
It's also possible to Bob that plan - though IIRC it was still reffed in pre-S9 interviews - but here's the thing. If you know, somewhere in the back of your mind, that a show has a plan, then you are watching it expecting it to end by giving you a sense of closure: the plots are resolved, the characters inner lives and torments are resolved, and the whole world of the show comes to a conclusion. Without a plan, a show just goes on until it stops at any old place in the narrative. One's a resolution: the other's random. Switching from resolution to random feels like a cheat.
(I'ts fair to say that my personal ideal 10 year Carter plan shifted over the years and for some seasons has been to have him carted away to rot in jail for stealing drugs and killing somebody when high: YMMV)
Kathy I agree with you that a writer can only play the hand they're dealt, and that for all we know Dee Johnson smiled through the pain as her better ideas for the finale were trampled by Chulack. Yet that ep displayed many of her characteristic traits: was her contribution only the manner and not the matter, so to speak? I can believe that there's a trade off between writers and producers inputs on a sliding scale that tips in the producers benefit in the finale: nevertheless IMO her fingerprints are all over that episode WRT plotting nevertheless.
It's also fair to say that Chulack - who was one of the big producer guys on the show in the first seasons - could only play the hand he was dealt by Orman. Now if I'd wanted to make another three-plus seasons of ER, I wouldn't want to start from there.
Nevertheless, agree with KaraThrace that this season has not flowed and that there is plenty of evidence that there has been a great deal of mind-changing about what to do with various plots and characters.
I disagree Katalyn,about the experimental eps as location shoots (Congo, NICU, hyperbaric chamber) are not what I'd class as formal storytelling experiments. The show's always done road trips and eps elsewhere (hospital or storm drains, collapsed buildings, etc). Just as it's always done melodrama and personal angst and frankly-not-especially believable stories at sweeps time: the season 1 finale, Hell and High water, Union Station, Exodus (etc). But at least three of those were seasons where Chulack was involved as producer, so is anybody surprised he's continuing as he began?
ed because conjunctions make a difference
Edited by WildCorgi, May 23, 2004 @ 1:55 AM.
#15
Posted May 23, 2004 @ 2:24 AM
While we saw GV brought in with lots of hullabaloo and hype that he was replacing GC, the truth is that Luka Kovac didn't replace Doug Ross. He was an entirely different character. They could try to write Luka and Carol as the new couple, but it would never carry the same "feel" as D/C, and that change alone was one form of evolution. Then when JM left, more evolution took place.
While I agree with this somewhat, I think it's impossible to deny that Luka and Doug have similarities. They are good with children, they can be cowboys in the medical arena when they feel strongly about something, they have complicated pasts that inhibited them from having emotionally significant relationships. I'm trying not too hard to dwell on this because I don't want this to be a Luka Vs. Doug thing. I'm just trying to say that there are similarities between the characters.
With me it was not so much that Luka *was* Doug as it was that the writers were clearly setting him up as this Perfect Replacement Love Interest. I think it's evident from the time that guy walked on the set that they *wanted* him to end up with Carol.
*I* thought it was quite obvious that TPTB had definite plans for Luka and Carol, but they didn't pan out. I don't think it was something they were planning to write. It was something they were writing. Julianna's decision not to re-sign messed them up.
Which is another problem with ER. TPTB, or an actor with strong feelings about where he/she wants their character to go, decides that so-and-so relationship needs to happen, so they pair someone up with a character from the main cast.
This has backfired tremedously. Carol/Luka, who were never that popular (yes, they had a few fans, but not many: DouCar fans were infuriated and Luka fans thought she wansn't good enough) but they're not the worst example by a long shot. Benton/Cleo, Pratt/Chen, Mark/Elizabeth. I'm sure there are more. Nobody cared about these couples, but that never stopped TPTB from trying to convince us that we must love them, no matter what.
I'm more inclined not to hate so much on TPTB for the Carol/Luka thing now. I mean, there was a lot going on at the time. Five new characters were introduced that year (Luka, Abby, Jing Mei, Cleo, and Dave) and three left (Jeanie, Carol, and Lucy). That's a lot of ground to cover.
Wells has said repeatedly in interviews that there is/was a 10 year plan and that it revolved around Carter. Don't have the links - that computer is now in silicon heaven - but a google should turn something up. Now I agree with you that a 10 year plan cannot taking account of the actors/writers' plans, but it is possible to make a long-term, life of show, arc that incorporates contingency planning if X or Y happens and decides to leave
I think that any 10-year plan for the show would have to be EXTREMELY vague. There's just been too much going on in the past couple of years (and it didn't really start to get complicated until season six) for whatever structure put in place not to be very, very accomodating. I'd have to think that whatever kind of plan existed would have to be more than willing to integrate another couple of seasons.
I think the plan probably goes something like this : Carter ends up satisfied with himself professionally and personally. Life goes on at County General. The End.
I have a hard time imagining that there are very many specifics involved.
Edited by popculturenerd, May 23, 2004 @ 2:39 AM.
#16
Posted May 23, 2004 @ 7:24 AM
While I agree with this somewhat, I think it's impossible to deny that Luka and Doug have similarities. They are good with children, they can be cowboys in the medical arena when they feel strongly about something, they have complicated pasts that inhibited them from having emotionally significant relationships. I'm trying not too hard to dwell on this because I don't want this to be a Luka Vs. Doug thing. I'm just trying to say that there are similarities between the characters.
Frankly, when Luka entered after Doug had left, I thought; "Oh, it's the new dark, brooding and handsome character." It was slightly too "on the nose"
I didn't find Romano to badly done at all. I do think Romano was boxed into a corner from the previous season but his behavior - increasingly bitter and nasty, seemed consistent. Likewise, I didn't see Weaver as being badly written but I wish that the baby storyline hadn't been dropped into our laps. That was badly done especially since the last time we had seen Sandy had been Sandy protesting getting knocked up
I kind of disagree here. I agree that Romano's behaviour would have become more and more difficult as his ptsd progressed and was ignored by his colleagues, but we had no lead up to this. At the end of s9, he was suffering mentally, but seemed resigned and still had some humour about him. However, he stormed into s10 like Genghis Khan. It was too abrupt and too obviously to allow them to kill him off and have no-one care. I watched s10 'til episode 7, through which episodes Kerry seemed only to yell randomly at colleagues. I'd be pleased if she did more in the later episodes I didn't see, because watching some earlier episodes recently reminded me of how well-played and complex the character was; and subsequently how disappointed I was that she had become a one note screecher.
Re: the whole "are they trying to attract a younger audience" idea. My (knee-jerk) reaction is that they are. Younger cast, excruciatingly tedious self-involvement and relationship angst, jokey violence and "gross-out" scenes. In other words, adolescence a go-go. The show has always had the odd "shocking!" storylines, but they used to be just that - shocking. Now in the climate of general yelling, hysteria and melodrama, they're expected
popculturenerd, Wells has said repeatedly in interviews that there is/was a 10 year plan and that it revolved around Carter. Don't have the links - that computer is now in silicon heaven - but a google should turn something up. Now I agree with you that a 10 year plan cannot taking account of the actors/writers' plans, but it is possible to make a long-term, life of show, arc that incorporates contingency planning if X or Y happens and decides to leave: Buffy and Voyager come to mind.
I think as we began the show with Carter beginning his medical career, we'll probably end it with Carter finding some kind of contentment, or tooth-grindingly most predictable - becoming chief of the E.R. They could easily change other aspects of the show, characters etc. and still keep this as their end-goal.
The show's always done road trips and eps elsewhere (hospital or storm drains, collapsed buildings, etc).
It has. Because I hate them and have a record of them burned into my brain. I couldn't quite figure out why I hated these epsiodes so much until I realised that it's because they tend to feature the "lead" characters while I always tend to become invested in the more minor characters. So these episodes by default meant that I had no chance of seeing my personal favourites.
In the earlier seasons you got a sense of these people as just normal co-workers -- now in many cases they're sad sacks embroiled in personal tragedy after personal tragedy. I actually think this is directly related to the fact that they can't/won't date outside of the main cast unless they are going through a hooker phase. In the past, many of the characters dated people outside of the hospital or hooked up with supporting/recurring characters. This way their personal lives didn't take over yet there were still lots of people milling around, and the supporting cast got some good bits. When the romances ended, the supporting characters simply dissapeared, but while they were around, they were woven into the medical side pretty well.
Popculturenerd, ITA.
Edited by Jenn, May 23, 2004 @ 12:32 PM.
#17
Posted May 23, 2004 @ 1:24 PM
But Carter has always been satisfied with himself: how can it be a plot if nothing changes?I think the plan probably goes something like this : Carter ends up satisfied with himself professionally and personally. Life goes on at County General. The End.
My understanding of the uber-plot was that it revolved around Carter ok, but documented his professional progress until he ended up running the ER, which brought the show full-circle. That's flexible, gives a firm steer to the show, and leaves wiggle room for contingency planning. After all, all that had to happen for Voyager to be resolved as a series was that they made it home.
However, I would submit that there are some ancillary plots that are necessary for that to work, which revolve around Carter's former mentors accepting him as their glorious leader - the uber-plot is not going to work if he got there by buying the ER, or by backstabbing and/or weaselling his way to the top while being roundly resented by all. It's also possible to argue, IMO, that Lucy was introduced so that she and Carter could be paired off as a new professional pairing along the lines of Mark and Kerry - where that would have taken those two characters is an interesting line of speculation but of course ancient "what if?" history by now.
WRT the personal relationships and the intermingling of supporting and main cast characters - a lot changed when Lydia Woodward and Carol Flint left the show in S5/6, and the final break with that seems IMO to have come with the departure of Neal Baer in mid-S7 (he'd been with the show since the start).
The addition of younger characters obviously arouses strong feelings and drives me personally nuts because they have not been well-written for some time, but you have to ask, if this is a show around a teaching hospital, how old are med students? it's not feasible to have more than one mature med student/intern/whatever Abby is next year, because it's not realistic. Also it's not feasible for the show to stick with a totally static cast because that's not what happens in RL hospitals either.
#18
Posted May 23, 2004 @ 2:14 PM
I think the 10 year plan was always to have it end with Carter going full circle from student to running the ER.
But the best laid plans... etc. And if it is viable that the show could be extended beyond 10 or 12 years, I can't see NBC turning it down having lost both Friends and Frasier this year. (I also recall hearing that the ER contract with NBC required that at least one original cast member remain. I think that may have changed too.)
I heard a radio interview with NW last week where he said that he wasn't sure about his plans, he could see Carter leaving to run a clinic but that he (NW) wanted to return for the series finale and put his feet up behind the desk.
But the best laid plans... etc. And if it is viable that the show could be extended beyond 10 or 12 years, I can't see NBC turning it down having lost both Friends and Frasier this year. (I also recall hearing that the ER contract with NBC required that at least one original cast member remain. I think that may have changed too.)
I heard a radio interview with NW last week where he said that he wasn't sure about his plans, he could see Carter leaving to run a clinic but that he (NW) wanted to return for the series finale and put his feet up behind the desk.
#19
Posted May 23, 2004 @ 3:02 PM
If I were to learn that season 11 was to be Noah Wyle's last I would feel sad but I would also understand it because I think for any actor to play the same character, on a character driven drama, for 10 years let alone 15 is very tough. Its tough for the writers and the actor to keep the character interesting.
My guess is that TPTB know this as well but the reason I think they will fight to get Carter to renew his contract is because as we approach the 11th season I really do believe that many fans are one character's exit arc away from departure. And if you don't have a backup character is there a reason to stay? I mean as WildCorgi says the medical dramas themselves are bluring into each other with the exception of the stories involving Susan. The doctors don't relate anymore to the patients in a meaningful way
And part of the reason is that lately it seems to me that the patients who get wheeled in to the ER are becoming more and more over the top in terms of what's wrong with them as a way to compete I guess with the disasters befalling the staff.
I also think for example that Carter, Luka and Pratt provide the male hunk factor on the show so to speak and that's why I think ER made another self-satisfied error in creating Morris as some kind of inside joke character that only they get because if Carter does leaves you only have Luka and Pratt as the male leads because you certainly don't have Morris.
My guess is that TPTB know this as well but the reason I think they will fight to get Carter to renew his contract is because as we approach the 11th season I really do believe that many fans are one character's exit arc away from departure. And if you don't have a backup character is there a reason to stay? I mean as WildCorgi says the medical dramas themselves are bluring into each other with the exception of the stories involving Susan. The doctors don't relate anymore to the patients in a meaningful way
And part of the reason is that lately it seems to me that the patients who get wheeled in to the ER are becoming more and more over the top in terms of what's wrong with them as a way to compete I guess with the disasters befalling the staff.
I also think for example that Carter, Luka and Pratt provide the male hunk factor on the show so to speak and that's why I think ER made another self-satisfied error in creating Morris as some kind of inside joke character that only they get because if Carter does leaves you only have Luka and Pratt as the male leads because you certainly don't have Morris.
Edited by KathyV, May 23, 2004 @ 3:57 PM.
#20
Posted May 23, 2004 @ 5:20 PM
Excellent thread. You know what I miss?
With the introductions of Neela, Gallant, and Sam, we have three very unique main characters that haven't been done before - a med student who knows her stuff, but doesn't really want to deal with patients (compared to Lucy, who couldn't do an IV with out Carol and used her PalmPilot as a life preserver); a med student with a heavy military background (who, of all people, should have gotten a Field Trip episode - not counting driving Abby around to find her brother); and a single mother with an almost-teenaged son (which could have been done much better without the stolen appendages storyline).
Corday is getting over (yeah, right) her husband's death? Show us her dating unease, don't just throw her in the backseat of a car.
Kerry has a miscarriage? Fine - let us see the aftermath, not just dropping the storyline for six months, only to reappear with a WE'RE BACK! mentality, and then kill off the relationship partner within two episodes, leading to the inevitable and completely expected custody battle.
Nobody has a real 'mentor,' either - people like Anspaugh honestly cared about the people around them. Only Susan has a remotely caring aura about her, and she's off with the pregnancy.
I'm just so tired of everybody being ALL ABOUT ME when it used to be A LITTLE ABOUT ME, BUT HEY, IT'S STILL A HOSPITAL.
- The John Carter who would rather spend time with a patient instead of going to his own graduation, or who would take Ruth Johnson (Good Luck, Ruth Johnson) to the river instead of boring her with a hospital tour.
- The Kerry Weaver who blasts Burning Ring of Fire in the wee hours of the morning, and who likes to show off her kitchen skills.
- The Elizabeth Corday who uses hard-boiled eggs as conversation starters.
- The happy Deb Chen.
- The Abby Lockhart who had a witty banter with the other nurses.
- Haleh, Lily, Chuny, Malik, Conni, and Yosh.
- The times when a character would smile, and I wouldn't have to think about what the smile was covering up (like when Jeanie would show off her prize-winning grin).
- The times when a kid could come into the ER, and I wouldn't be waiting for the inevitable DUN-DUN-DUN! of the trauma (like when Doug would entertain a patient).
- The times when a patient would genuinely affect a main character (like Abby in Be Still My Heart).
- Character arcs that really allowed characters to shine (Laura Innes, Alan Alda and Alzheimer's; Goran Visjnic and James Cromwell as the Bishop).
- "Disaster" events that were both plausible and actually dramatic (Carter and Corday in Exodus).
With the introductions of Neela, Gallant, and Sam, we have three very unique main characters that haven't been done before - a med student who knows her stuff, but doesn't really want to deal with patients (compared to Lucy, who couldn't do an IV with out Carol and used her PalmPilot as a life preserver); a med student with a heavy military background (who, of all people, should have gotten a Field Trip episode - not counting driving Abby around to find her brother); and a single mother with an almost-teenaged son (which could have been done much better without the stolen appendages storyline).
Corday is getting over (yeah, right) her husband's death? Show us her dating unease, don't just throw her in the backseat of a car.
Kerry has a miscarriage? Fine - let us see the aftermath, not just dropping the storyline for six months, only to reappear with a WE'RE BACK! mentality, and then kill off the relationship partner within two episodes, leading to the inevitable and completely expected custody battle.
Nobody has a real 'mentor,' either - people like Anspaugh honestly cared about the people around them. Only Susan has a remotely caring aura about her, and she's off with the pregnancy.
I'm just so tired of everybody being ALL ABOUT ME when it used to be A LITTLE ABOUT ME, BUT HEY, IT'S STILL A HOSPITAL.
Edited by Aatrek, May 23, 2004 @ 5:41 PM.
#21
Posted May 23, 2004 @ 5:35 PM
While I agree with this somewhat, I think it's impossible to deny that Luka and Doug have similarities. They are good with children, they can be cowboys in the medical arena when they feel strongly about something, they have complicated pasts that inhibited them from having emotionally significant relationships.
The same similarities exist with Carter and with Abby. Doug/Luka/Abby/Carter all share these characteristics; I think they're things the writers see as compelling rather than being deireclty connected to a "type".
#22
Posted May 23, 2004 @ 9:06 PM
I don't deny that Luka and Doug had similarities. They definitely chose a tall, dark guu that could pull off brooding and mysterious and serve as the replacement hunk. But the characters were not identical at all - initially it was a gentleman, family man who came in to replace the sleeparound, nonfamily man. He was not a polar opposite of Doug, but he likewise was not Doug's twin in any regard. Good with kids? Most of the ER characters have shown this quality. Cowboys in the ER? Who hasn't been? Complicated pasts? Yes, because over time it's the only way writers know how to keep any character interesting. The longer a character is on the show, the more complicated their history. Sometimes, it seem, it gets so complicated that it gets rewritten so they can start over.
Wells now says there was a ten-year plan. That's been touted a lot in the last three years. But when the show began, the man who was considered lead and most important, the center of the ER was Mark Greene. Word of the 10-year plan began about the time AE was talking about leaving. Not that Carter wasn't important to Wells, and that he was the one character through which they would show growth (or...well...) but the "plan" wasn't that Carter was the center of the ER universe and all happenings would revolve around him and the show would die when there was no Carter or when Carter was Chief of Staff or some other administrative bigwig at County. They didn't know how long the show would go then.
I miss having all the nurses all the time. Or at least, most of them all the time.
Wells now says there was a ten-year plan. That's been touted a lot in the last three years. But when the show began, the man who was considered lead and most important, the center of the ER was Mark Greene. Word of the 10-year plan began about the time AE was talking about leaving. Not that Carter wasn't important to Wells, and that he was the one character through which they would show growth (or...well...) but the "plan" wasn't that Carter was the center of the ER universe and all happenings would revolve around him and the show would die when there was no Carter or when Carter was Chief of Staff or some other administrative bigwig at County. They didn't know how long the show would go then.
I miss having all the nurses all the time. Or at least, most of them all the time.
Edited by myshiloh, May 23, 2004 @ 9:08 PM.
#23
Posted May 24, 2004 @ 12:47 AM
About the ten year plan for Carter, is it possible that the intention was at the end of the series, they would do some kind of jump ahead however many years, and the other characters would have moved on to positions at other hospitals or retired or whatever, and he wouldn't be in charge of them but of new people? It would only take one episode, the final one. Sort of a glimpse into the future, if they wanted to do it that way.
I have no idea if this is a logical way of looking at it. It may be that realistically someone like Kerry would still be at County, and it would take some hoop jumping to get her or everyone elseto not be working at County.
I have no idea if this is a logical way of looking at it. It may be that realistically someone like Kerry would still be at County, and it would take some hoop jumping to get her or everyone elseto not be working at County.
#24
Posted May 24, 2004 @ 1:04 AM
Interesting stuff. I agree Dani, I've often wondered if the finale will jump years into the future and bring back whoever they can. That would be great.
On relationships, I would hope that it's not all just we miust put x with y, but that there's some kind of openess to what ends up feeling right, if that makes sense. Certainly a long running series has complications to casting that a book or movie doesn't actors leave or don't work out etc. But it still seems if you want to create believable drama you have to be open to "going with the flow". It's interesting to me how tptb have really had the male/female relationships over the last couple of seasons be pretty painful to watch for the most part. The women are selfish or shrewish or generally messed-up and the men are emotionally inept doormats. For lack of a more high minded question: what's up with that? I've actually enjoyed Carter and Kem despite the fluff aspect merely because they treat each other nicely and seem to find one another mutually attractive. Really I don't ask for much.
Wrt to the youth factor. That's another aspect of tv they must bring in the right demographic. In one sense I think it's better than making more mature actors act juvenille, think Carter and Abby go to the prom in season 7. But I wish that they would in a sense strive to please both the young demographic and well, me. In other words run a storyline for them, and one for me, throw in the occassional tank if you must, but give me a storyline to sink my teeth into as well. I think to be truly successful a show must cater not only to the casual viewer, but also to the "fanatical" viewers. We're the ones that note the continuity and the details that in the end make it a show worth watching for anyone.
On relationships, I would hope that it's not all just we miust put x with y, but that there's some kind of openess to what ends up feeling right, if that makes sense. Certainly a long running series has complications to casting that a book or movie doesn't actors leave or don't work out etc. But it still seems if you want to create believable drama you have to be open to "going with the flow". It's interesting to me how tptb have really had the male/female relationships over the last couple of seasons be pretty painful to watch for the most part. The women are selfish or shrewish or generally messed-up and the men are emotionally inept doormats. For lack of a more high minded question: what's up with that? I've actually enjoyed Carter and Kem despite the fluff aspect merely because they treat each other nicely and seem to find one another mutually attractive. Really I don't ask for much.
Wrt to the youth factor. That's another aspect of tv they must bring in the right demographic. In one sense I think it's better than making more mature actors act juvenille, think Carter and Abby go to the prom in season 7. But I wish that they would in a sense strive to please both the young demographic and well, me. In other words run a storyline for them, and one for me, throw in the occassional tank if you must, but give me a storyline to sink my teeth into as well. I think to be truly successful a show must cater not only to the casual viewer, but also to the "fanatical" viewers. We're the ones that note the continuity and the details that in the end make it a show worth watching for anyone.
#25
Posted May 24, 2004 @ 1:08 AM
Of course it's possible that the 10 year plan is spin designed to mitigate the blow of Edwards' departure, though IIRC it was mentioned somewhat earlier than the last round of contract negs with him: equally, IMO, it's also possible that word only got out in the last three years and it was always the plan.
Now, without asking Wells, no way of telling: but IMO the length of the show's contract (announced early) and the way Carter was positioned as the show's entry point for the lay viewers, makes it likely that the uber-plot centred on Carter. After all he was the only one who could realistically progress within the ER - given he started at the bottom and other characters were at least half-way up the ladder - and was the character supposed to carry the sympathy and the interest of the viewers with him as he learned.
I say "supposed" to because (again IMO) Carter has not been doing that for some time; his professional growth arc was stalled in S8; and the dating arc for this season has not advanced him professionally either; finally, he has never shown any career ambition. Now I agree with you that Mark, though there is less of him in the early seasons and he is less prominent than memory suggests, was intended as the character with whom the viewers could identify once they were "inside" the show: but I still don't see how you can concoct a over-arching plot that revolves around Mark, because where can you take him? he was already a grown man and an established doctor when the series started.
Contrast Doug - whose slow growth arc through 5 seasons really worked. BTW I disagree with you WRT Luka's personal characteristics: great character, but if they'd had a back of the envelope tick box exercise in polar opposites to early Doug (not the Doug who left), they'd have ended up with something almost exactly the same as Luka. Agree however on the medical side.
There is a great deal of character recycling going on, and it's not all working as well as the introduction of Luka, IMO. I thought Elizabeth was shown very well as dealing with Mark's death in early S9, and now in moving on; as for Kerry, she strikes me as the sort of character who's too private to get personal stuff shown in great detail or up close, and that's fine. Sandy's death (BTW another character designed to be a polar opposite, this time of Legaspi) was inevitable from the moment she was made a fire-fighter. I'm glad they used it to advance a Weaver plot instead of throwing it away.
Now, without asking Wells, no way of telling: but IMO the length of the show's contract (announced early) and the way Carter was positioned as the show's entry point for the lay viewers, makes it likely that the uber-plot centred on Carter. After all he was the only one who could realistically progress within the ER - given he started at the bottom and other characters were at least half-way up the ladder - and was the character supposed to carry the sympathy and the interest of the viewers with him as he learned.
I say "supposed" to because (again IMO) Carter has not been doing that for some time; his professional growth arc was stalled in S8; and the dating arc for this season has not advanced him professionally either; finally, he has never shown any career ambition. Now I agree with you that Mark, though there is less of him in the early seasons and he is less prominent than memory suggests, was intended as the character with whom the viewers could identify once they were "inside" the show: but I still don't see how you can concoct a over-arching plot that revolves around Mark, because where can you take him? he was already a grown man and an established doctor when the series started.
Contrast Doug - whose slow growth arc through 5 seasons really worked. BTW I disagree with you WRT Luka's personal characteristics: great character, but if they'd had a back of the envelope tick box exercise in polar opposites to early Doug (not the Doug who left), they'd have ended up with something almost exactly the same as Luka. Agree however on the medical side.
There is a great deal of character recycling going on, and it's not all working as well as the introduction of Luka, IMO. I thought Elizabeth was shown very well as dealing with Mark's death in early S9, and now in moving on; as for Kerry, she strikes me as the sort of character who's too private to get personal stuff shown in great detail or up close, and that's fine. Sandy's death (BTW another character designed to be a polar opposite, this time of Legaspi) was inevitable from the moment she was made a fire-fighter. I'm glad they used it to advance a Weaver plot instead of throwing it away.
#26
Posted May 24, 2004 @ 1:23 AM
The Elizabeth Corday who uses hard-boiled eggs as conversation starters.
Wasn't Lizzie great back in the day? Sexy, intelligent, charismatic . . . she's been a mess ever since Mark got ahold of her.
With the introductions of Neela, Gallant, and Sam, we have three very unique main characters that haven't been done before - a med student who knows her stuff, but doesn't really want to deal with patients (compared to Lucy, who couldn't do an IV with out Carol and used her PalmPilot as a life preserver)
I haven't watched the show that much to get a feel on Neela. But Jing Mei/Deb was like this in season one. It's why she quit.
a single mother with an almost-teenaged son (which could have been done much better without the stolen appendages storyline).
Isn't Alex only about 9? He may be a brat, but he's got a few years to go before adolescence. I think the kid only looks about 7 and his mother about 21 or 22, which is why the whole thing, quite honestly, gives me the creeps. Luka's practically old enough to be her father.
The whole Luka/Sam thing is blatantly reminiscent of a little storyline Doug had in the first season with a woman who fit the "tough single mom" mold, who didn't want her kid to find out the bedroom activities, and featured the boyfriend in question being attached to the kid. I haven't watched all of the episodes but after hearing about the whole thing from friends who are more loyal to ER than I am, it sounds like they did some serious cribbing.
Re: Luka/Doug:
But the characters were not identical at all - initially it was a gentleman, family man who came in to replace the sleeparound, nonfamily man.
You sell Doug short here. Yes, he was an unreliable whore the first couple of seasons, but after the run-in with the one-night stand who died, he cleaned himself up. He was committed enough to Carol to propose to her, move in, and plan a child together.
Professionally, he was still a screw-up, and that's why he ended up leaving. While it's true that we don't know went on in the 15 months between him leaving and Carol joining him out in Seattle, we do know that he kept trying to contact her during her pregnancy, even after she had rebuffed him, that he had some kind of visitation plan
with her, and that he asked her to come live with him there. Doug may have started out as a womanizer, but by the time Luka came on to replace him his personal behavior wasn't really in sharp contrast to Luka's.
At any rate, Luka's post-Carol behavior has been skeevy enough for it to be impossible to paint him as Doug's moral superior. They've both spent a fair amount of time being the Hospital Slut.
Wells now says there was a ten-year plan. That's been touted a lot in the last three years. But when the show began, the man who was considered lead and most important, the center of the ER was Mark Greene. Word of the 10-year plan began about the time AE was talking about leaving. Not that Carter wasn't important to Wells, and that he was the one character through which they would show growth (or...well...) but the "plan" wasn't that Carter was the center of the ER universe and all happenings would revolve around him and the show would die when there was no Carter or when Carter was Chief of Staff or some other administrative bigwig at County. They didn't know how long the show would go then.
There's always been talk of Carter being the "center" of the show. As in the show has been seen from Carter's POV, etc. It isn't a new concept. If Noah Wyle had decided he didn't want to do the show anymore, then it would have still gone on as long as it was making money. I think any kind of plan that was or was not set in place is enough to accomodate a few more years on the show. If there's an eventual goal for Carter, I think it'll just be moved a few years ahead.
I'd like to know where the idea originates that ER can only exist if one original cast member remains. Did this start around the time talk of 10 year plans started coming up? It sounds a bit odd to me to have this in place for a popular show that has lost most of its original cast members.
#27
Posted May 24, 2004 @ 2:38 AM
aggghhhh, had a wonderfully detailed post and then I clicked on the wrong ffing button, grrr!
Okay, to summarize it.
A few years ago, TPTB signed a contract with NBC, guaranteeing them airtime up until season 10 (?) on the condition that at least one original cast member was still on board.
Speculation was that SS was brought back so that if NW had jumped ship then TPTB would still technically have adhered to their side of the bargain.
I'm not sure what the position is now, whether NBC have committed to ER for another specified number of seasons or what.
Personally I think it was better when TPTB had to prove themselves each year and knew that sloppy work could result in cancellation.
Okay, to summarize it.
I'd like to know where the idea originates that ER can only exist if one original cast member remains.
A few years ago, TPTB signed a contract with NBC, guaranteeing them airtime up until season 10 (?) on the condition that at least one original cast member was still on board.
Speculation was that SS was brought back so that if NW had jumped ship then TPTB would still technically have adhered to their side of the bargain.
I'm not sure what the position is now, whether NBC have committed to ER for another specified number of seasons or what.
Personally I think it was better when TPTB had to prove themselves each year and knew that sloppy work could result in cancellation.
#28
Posted May 24, 2004 @ 4:39 AM
Isn't that where they are now: S11 for definite, and S12 only pencilled in? Can't say I've noticed an improvement in the writing and planning.
#29
Posted May 24, 2004 @ 7:34 AM
Doug was begun as a sleeparound man who wanted no attachments, in spite of his feelings for Carol, who had little connection to family. Luka was brought on as a family man who definitely wanted attachments and missed those he had had. I stick by the fact that other than appearances, these two characters were unalike. It was only over time that each migrated toward the other end of the spectrum. So then, yes, by the time Doug left/Carol joined him he and the newly arriving Luka were more alike. So then, yet, by the time Luka became a sleeparound man (not by nature but by depression) he was more like Doug. But it took both to migrate to become like the other.
Me too. As with many shows, once it's sails were well placed in the wind, it just sailed along. While I enjoy many aspects of it now, it does seem it was a richer show when it was in choppier waters.Personally I think it was better when TPTB had to prove themselves each year and knew that sloppy work could result in cancellation.
#30
Posted May 24, 2004 @ 8:18 AM
Doug had migrated to the other end of the spectrum by the time Luka appeared: like replaced like. OTOH Luka's season of screwing around managed to remove all the joy from sex, so in that respect he does compare unfavourably to Doug.
If all it took to improve the show's writing was a future decided on a season by season basis, which is what's happening now, then how come the writing is still so poor?
If all it took to improve the show's writing was a future decided on a season by season basis, which is what's happening now, then how come the writing is still so poor?
Edited by SockMuppet, May 24, 2004 @ 8:24 AM.
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