480 replies to this topic

[heathrowe99]

It was always bad, but CODA tipped the envelope, and then S5 was so terrible. Even though S4 was tough to watch, it broke my heart in a good way, and kept me tuned in. After CODA tptb really alienated and then bored me.

[TripleMaster]

domain, Coda was the last episode of season 4. TPTB = the posers that be. There is a list of abbreviations such as this in the FAQs.

The show went really bad when they cast JVDB. It was saved by P/J in S3. Coda was a freaking disaster that started the worst downhill slide. Clean and Sober began an upswing, followed by the next worst disaster in Love Bites. The finale snatched victory from the jaws of defeat, but the truncated kitchen scene almost ruined it.

So, multiple really bad turning points. But none worse than casting JVDB, IMHO.

ETA: TPTB = The Powers that Be, not The Posers that Be, but it looked so much better that way that I couldn't correct my typo. Damn, in my own fat-fingered typing, I made myself laugh!

Edited by TripleMaster, Feb 4, 2004 @ 12:46 PM.

[ditto]

The funny thing is that I really didn't notice that typo!

I think that the show was at its best whilst it was still fresh, I began losing interest after the end of S4, like many people i guess I just couldn't believe that they were going back to the whole DJ thing again... maybe it was just me.

Plot things, like the untimely ice-cream ending for the Flash, just annoyed me, and on top of that there were the signs that the cast were tiring of the show and weren't entirely happy. Saying that, there were some great episodes which picked things up again. Maybe its just because I'm a PJ-er, who knows.

But to be honest there were good and bad episodes in every season, I just have a preference for the first half of the show.

Edited by ditto, Feb 4, 2004 @ 3:04 PM.

[catmax99]

I think the show started to go bad at Four Stories- the post P/J sex episode in Season 4 where TPTB ultimately sold out the Pacey and Joey relationship. There was a slight redemption in The Graduate and Separation Anxiety, but then with Coda it hit a new low with the return of Dawson and Joey's ridiculous relationship.

The fatal flaw of the show was an over-reliance on this D/J relationship, that caught on and brought in viewers in Season #1, but never really soared (or heck even slightly flew) whenever Dawson and Joey where together. But they kept going back to that premise, again and again, and frankly it was painful. At the same time, after P/J ended, TPTB tried to pretend that the best relationship on the show never existed- bad, bad writers! That in addition to a complete lack of concern for continuity, and the manipulation of Joey's character into someone who expressed the most ambigious emotions possible, really made the show just downright confusing.

I think the show Everwood strikes an interesting contrast of what DC could have done with the D/J relationship so it didn't sabotage the show. The teen almost romance that dominated the first year of that show never really came to fruition, but the two characters involved have moved beyond it, onto different things. I am sure they will eventually get together at least for awhile, or at some point- but the TPTB there didn't subject us to different iterations of it for all of this year, which means it will be fresh if they revisit it. What a concept! Then again if D/J had ever really caught on- we would have never had P/J and that would have been criminal.

[TripleMaster]

katty, sorry I made a redundant post. Sometimes I think we share a brain, except for the part about having the hots for Josh!

[aizjanika]

katty and Triple, I really thought it was funny that you both posted almost the exact same thing at the same time.

In thinking about when the show actually "went bad"--I'm not sure it can be pinpointed to one particular moment for me. To me, Dawson's Creek is more of a show about moments and it always has been (well, "always" in the sense that I only started watching it less than a year ago <G>). The lack of continuity from the very beginning and the lack of even trying to make certain things make sense (Pacey's father, for instance: Is he the sheriff of the police chief?), always made this show somewhat bad. As far as writing and storyline goes, the show has always had good and bad moments.

I believe that even though some storylines might not have been as strong in seasons 1 and 2, the overall story arcs fit together better and made more sense--at least to me. What I mean is...more of the story arcs made sense more of the time in seasons 1 & 2, but I didn't necessarily enjoy them more. hehe I also believe that there were a lot of special moments in seasons 1 & 2--more good moments than bad moments, even if there were some episodes that were not that great.

In season 3, I think story arcs were more uneven, but the good moments were SUPER good--to the point where I think season 3 is my favorite season even if I really hated some of the storylines--many of the storylines. The special moments of season 3 overshadow the rest of the show for me, in a lot of ways. Also, as discussed and pointed out by many others before me, season 3 also had the best story arc of the entire series (P/J) with a really good, slow buildup that lasted the entire season. This more than made up for anything else that was lacking in season 3--for me personally, that is. :-)

I actually also liked season 4. In some ways it was better than season 3, but I can't really put my finger why I feel that way. I just think that it was a little bit stronger overall, even if it didn't hit the highs that season 3 had. It had some really special P/J moments that I really liked, some fun episodes that I also really liked (The Unusual Suspects, for instance), and there weren't many storylines that I absolutely couldn't stand (See: Henry, season 3)--or at least none that come to mind in this moment in time without thinking about it too much or going back and reading episode guides. Maybe I am too far removed to remember right now as I have a terrible memory. In some ways season 4 reminds me of season 2--not as far as storylines, but as to how much I liked it. ;-)

My overall impression of season 4, though, is that I mostly liked it--and what I mostly liked was: JOSH. He does the angst so well that even if I didn't like a particular storyline, I can enjoy his scenes, right through to and including Promicide (ETA: and beyond, of course). I do think that the way certain things were done in season 4 were, well, icky--to resort to my kindergarten vocabularly. There were also a few scenes in season 4 that REALLY and totally make me cringe to the point where I want to act like I'm five and stick my fingers in my ears and close my eyes and say: "Blah blah blah blah" until the scenes are over. The Andy Griffith scene for one and Joey going to the clinic are two glaring examples that stand out to me even in the face of my bad memory. Oh, and of course, the CODA kiss, but I kind of block that out of memory. (I actually liked Coda except for that kiss, though.)

I think that in season 5 is when there started to be fewer good moments to make up for the bad ones and the little bit of continuity that existed before almost seemed to disappear. However, there are still some good Josh moments in season 5 so I can still watch it and the storylines don't really bother me. Oh, they did at first, but maybe because all ended well for me, I can overlook this and even enjoy the humor of Highway to Hell, for example, only because I think Josh looks like he's having fun with some of the scenes there, regardless of how stupid they are.

I actually think that while season 6 was BAD, I also liked it more than season 5 in some ways. There are some more exciting "eeee" scenes starting right in 601 & 602 (the jukebox scene and Pacey with two party hats on) and then some Pacey angst even if the storylines were stupid. Then we get Clean & Sober, Castaways, That Was Then, Love Bites, GBYBR, and JP&TCR and the finale...

So...I love the show--the whole show. I even love seasons 5 & 6, though if I had to choose only one season to keep forever, I'd choose season 3. In fact, I think my order of seasons would be as follows:

Season 3
Season 4
Season 1
Season 2
Season 6
Season 5

(Seasons 1 and 2 sometimes change places in my mind because I love Pacey in Season 2--pretty much all of season 2, but season 1 was so much fun at times with silly episodes like Hurricane, Detention, and The Scare which I really love.)

Edited by aizjanika, Feb 4, 2004 @ 8:14 PM.

[ScarletGirl]

I think the show started to go bad at Four Stories- the post P/J sex episode in Season 4 where TPTB ultimately sold out the Pacey and Joey relationship. There was a slight redemption in The Graduate and Separation Anxiety, but then with Coda it hit a new low with the return of Dawson and Joey's ridiculous relationship.

While I could write volumes about why I agree with this (and, come to think of it, probably have), I'm actually going to say the true death knell happened with the beginning of S5. Here's why: Yes, post-sex was handled abysmally by TPTB. It was the beginning of the end for PJ. Yes, Coda was a horrific wrong turn by the writers, in thinking that we, the viewers, could disregard over a season of watching how much Joey loved Pacey (and how she wasn't the one who broke up with him and wasn't planning on it) and buy her being so devastasted that Dawson was leaving, to the point of that kiss.

But, all that? All that could have been easily explained away come the S5 premiere as Joey being so hurt by Pacey that she feared losing her one last link to childhood, that being Dawson. They could have had S5 all about Joey moving passed what she always thought she was meant to have with Dawson and realizing it was always only about friendship. They could have had her dealing, realistically, with Pacey being in Boston - with the hurt she felt, the anger she felt, his anger back at her for putting Dawson first in their relationship, etc. Instead, they did none of that. They swept everything under the rug and started from scratch, once again trying to sell an unsellable story, that being the destined soulmates. Big mistake. Huge.

Shows that deal with the high school years often have problems with the transition to college. But, with DC, they exacerbated these problems by writing the lamest possible plot they could have come up with. S5 premiere - truly when the show jumped the shark, imo.

Edited by ScarletGirl, Feb 5, 2004 @ 1:40 AM.

[Bill1978]

Keep in mind, that I stopped watching Dawson's Creek midway through Season 3 and only picked it back up in the later half of Season 6.

I felt the show went bad in early Season 3 when the show basically became a show about 6 people who knew one another and occassionally came into contact with one another, it seemed to be 6 stories linked to 1 show. S1 and S2 seemed to be about a close knit group of friends who if they didn't experience things with one another, talked about these experiences with their friends, 1 story with offshoot storylines linked to it.

I always felt that TBTB forgot that they were dealing with 'friends'. They seemed to treat them more as aquaintances. That's why I think I really enjoyed the last 3 episodes of Season 6. They went back to the friends rallying behind one another, all their storylines interconnected with one another. The last 3 episodes went back to what I cared about, the (now) 5 friends experiencing life as one.

[Bill1978]

No offense taken pretzels, I'll be the first to admit my memory of Season 2 is rather hazy (not having access to the DVDs down here in Down Under). In fact the only clear storyline I remember is the whole Jack Coming Out Story Arc.

True, as a whole the 4 original kids may have stopped talking amongst one another as duos, but at least there was some talking amongst them. Even if it was Dawson acting as the go-between gopher. Perhaps Season 2 was the beginning of the end. I've been reading the recaps of Season 2 and I can see how the original 4 started to be self-absorbed in their own storylines. But at least, in my book anyways, there was still the interaction amongst them no matter how little it was, they all still seemed to care about one another and what was happening in their life. In the later seasons episodes that I've seen, the character seem to interact more as a 'Oh-hello-I've-bumped-into-you-so-I'll let-you know-how-I'm-going' fashion.

{begin rant}Another point that I think the show started to go down hill, was any publicity photo that excluded Andie and Jack. It still annoys me that the Volume 2 soundtrack excludes these two on the front cover. The soundtrack covered the seasons that these two were regulars, so they should be on the cover.{end rant}

Edited by Bill1978, Feb 5, 2004 @ 1:48 AM.

[Spider Girl]

When did the show go bad?

Gosh...I'd say S5. From the very beginning. I may not have liked where TPTB went with the end of S4, but it made some sense. I could see where it was going, I could rationalize it.

S5? It's like the writers and characters had amnesia...we just had the same actors playing them. TPTB never really figured out how to take the show beyond high school. They made the decision not to have everyone go to the same college, but then they couldn't come up with a plausible way to have them all interact.

Thank gosh they regained their memories in time for Clean and Sober...

Edited by Spider Girl, Feb 5, 2004 @ 7:35 PM.

[Bill1978]

I think that the show started being consistently bad right after Jack and Tobey broke up in S5.

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!! Don't say that. I got my mum to tape some episodes for me from Season 5. A grand total of 12 episodes (9 from the beginning 3 from the end - long story), but if this means that dodgy teen angst show becomes even more dodgy teen angst show, how will I cope. Sure I've prepared myself for boredom, but not that much boredom. Aaaaaarrrggghhhh!

[tvfanatic23]

Granted, I only started following the show in S3, but I've seen all the repeats (every last excrutiating hour). The show definitely went bad after 'Coda.' S5 was terrible overall, especially 'Hotel New Hampshire' & 'Downtown Crossing.' There were exeptions, though, including 'Highway to Hell,' 'Cigarette Burns,' 'Guerilla Filmmaking,' parts of 'Separate Ways (Worlds Apart)' [Joey & Audrey's 'fight' over Pacey in the bar? Hilarious.] and especially 'Appetite for Destruction.' Okay, so there were plenty of exceptions. S6 was full of ridiulous storylines, among them Emma, Professor Hetson and his lovely daughter, Eddie and his life [though I love Oliver Hudson], and Pacey's miraculously successful career as a stockbroker? Please. Though 'Merry Mayhem' was pretty funny (Drunk Todd is second only to Drunk Joey), redepmtion came with 'Clean and Sober' (I love Drunk Joey!), and again with 'Castaways.' 'Sex and Violence' was okay, and then came the lovely 'Love Bites,' which broke my heart. 'Lovelines' made me wanna puke (breaking up over seat-saving? Oy.) 'Goodbye, Yellow Brick Road' had no purpose, and 'Joey Potter and Capeside Redemption' would have been great without the ending. I still liked the finale, except for the lack of Andie and Audrey, and the fact that they couldn't get Chris Klein to play Joey's boyfriend (whih I heard they wanted to do in the first place). Also, what was up with the preview that showed her finding an engagement ring? I've seen the finale about 6 times inluding the original airing and I don't think I saw that...

Edited by tvfanatic23, Feb 6, 2004 @ 8:55 AM.

[dc friends]

tvfanatic- The scene where Joey finds the ring was a cut scene that can be seen on the series finale DVD. Originally, Joey was not going to go to Gail's wedding, but then she found the ring that Chris was going to give her, so she decided to go to Gail's wedding after all. I guess she was trying to avoid him.

I think the show started to go bad in season 5. TPTB basically erased everything that happened in the last 2 seasons and it completely alienated me.

[tvfanatic23]

dc friends - Thanks for the info. Anyone know if there were a lot of other cut scenes that ended up on the DVD?

TPTB basically erased everything that happened in the last 2 seasons and it completely alienated me.

Absolutely. S3 & S4 were great, mostly 'cause I'm a P/J fanatic. The last handful of S3 episodes? Along with 'Clean and Sober' and 'Castaways,' its my version of heaven. P/J forever!!! Waiting for a reunion movie with a wedding....... [and hopefully a funeral for the Beek]

Edited by tvfanatic23, Feb 6, 2004 @ 3:18 PM.

[Bronwen]

I think the show started to go bad at "Four Stories"- the post P/J sex episode in Season 4 where TPTB ultimately sold out the Pacey and Joey relationship. There was a slight redemption in "The Graduate" and "Separation Anxiety," but then with "Coda" it hit a new low with the return of Dawson and Joey's ridiculous relationship.

I think catmax99 hit the nail on the head, but even if you think things didn't fall apart until "Coda," you need to note that the show deteriorated markedly at the point when Tom Kapinos came into power. He was the leading voice from the writer's room by the end of season four and became the showrunner for the universally despised season five. Although he was still on board for season six, he was a much less active player. He had wanted to quit after the fifth season, but Paul Stupin convinced him to stay. Although she was never given the title, Gina Fattore was the real showrunner for the final year.

Edited to correct a typo.

Edited by Bronwen, Feb 8, 2004 @ 2:29 AM.

[ScarletGirl]

the show deteriorated markedly at the point when Tom Kapinos came into power. He was the leading voice from the writer's room by the end of season four and became the showrunner for the universally despised season five.

Word, word, word! Actually, I hadn't realized how much power he had in latter S4 (but that explains alot!), but he completely derailed the show in S5. It zigged, it zagged, it never hit its marks. There was just so much wrong with that season (dropped storylines, badly conceived new characters, to name two biggies) that it boggles the mind.

[Spider Girl]

he completely derailed the show in S5. It zigged, it zagged, it never hit its marks. There was just so much wrong with that season (dropped storylines, badly conceived new characters, to name two biggies) that it boggles the mind.

Word! I get the feeling that TK felt the need to make the series his own...to take it from where it was in S4 and make it something else...to really exert his influence. That would explain the many significant changes we saw, as well as why they usually weren't in character compared to what we had seen over the prior seasons.

Edited because my brain doesn't function on the weekend!

Edited by Spider Girl, Feb 7, 2004 @ 2:26 PM.

[heathrowe99]

Oh, I feel like a giant cyber-stalker, but your mention of Gina Fattore made me google her, so I could see if she's started writing on a new show.... and look what the Columbia University Class of 1990 Alumni Newsletter shows!

"Would it surprise you to learn that I ended up in Los Angeles?” writes Gina Fattore. She’s in Hollywood, to be exact. “For the past two years, I’ve been an actual honest-to-God TV writer,” she says. “I got my big break on King of the Hill and am now — through a rather strange and somewhat unexpected turn of events — working on Dawson’s Creek, which is more than a little surreal. In my spare time, I run a support group for women who love Pacey too much. (Just kidding, that was a joke; you probably don’t even know who Pacey is, do you? I mean you probably have, like, a life and everything.)”

I knew she a Pacey fan, but I thought this was fun to see. And yes, I agree 4 STORIES did suck, but for me CODA was when it became unwatchable and just no fun -- because I literally felt like it didn't matter what happened on the show, they would just keep bludgeoning me with Dawson and Joey, even when it made no sense. Like in Coda!

[dc friends]

tvfanatic- There are quite a few other cut scenes that are included on the series finale DVD. I haven't watched it in a while, but I think there's about 10 cut scenes all together.

[Bronwen]

Excellent find, heathrowe. I'm hardcore and while I know that Gina was a Pacey fan, I've never seen that quote before.

[aizjanika]

I loved it too, heathrowe. Thanks for taking the time to share it. :-)

[noahsmom]

That was great heathrowe. I agree with everyone the show went bad with Coda. Personally I can't watch past Admissions. I know everyone loves The Graduation & Separation Anxiety but it hurts to watch and I end up depressed until Clean and Sober. I need help I know LOL. I really like the very last scene in Admissions when Joey admits to Pacey that she lied and he tells her to let him go if he is holding her back. I just think it is a sweet scene. Oh well just MHO.