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Spoiler discussion: "They're gonna WHAT?!"


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#1

kwerkee

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Posted Dec 31, 2003 @ 7:15 PM

I'm not sure I'd believe Lex, right now, would use Clark, although who knows what kind of mental state he's in after he gets out of the asylum.

I find it hard to believe that Lex would use him, either, but that's the only substantial reason I'm willing to settle for (for the sake of continuity after that line in Ryan). I don't want it to be that 'don't-want-to-hurt-you' excuse because Clark already used that reasoning for Lana. It seems lame to be using that reasoning for Lex.

if Lex has to have his memory erased because he tries to use his knowledge to exploit Clark, the writer's are going to have to do some fancy footwork to make that giant character leap believable.

I totally agree that they need to have a good story. If Lex is going to lose his memory and then Clark does not tell him later on, that's too easy. I want to see what Lex does when he has that knowledge. With all the 'what-ifs' scenarios TPTB get to play with, wouldn't it be a fun story to write?

vallegirl laments:

But the very fact that Lex is obsessed with Clark is enough of a reason for Clark not to trust him.

But Clark DOESN'T know that Lex is still obsessed. Only we, the audience, do.

vallegirl, the thing that was bugging me was

..it is difficult for me to understand why Clark does not trust Lex.

You have to look at it from Clark's POV. (I would be echoing most of the above posts)

- Lex came clean when he investigated Clark in the first season. In his POV, Lex has stopped being nosy. Clark does not know about the CoCK or that Lex stole that blood vial from Dr. Bryce. Clark has no reason to suspect Lex has not been truthful.

- Bo Kent's disapproval is no longer an obstacle as Clark has proved by telling Pete.

- Clark knows Lionel is obssessed with him. It's scary to have Lionel on your back so who would be perfect to protect him but Lex? Not only does he have the money and resources, Lex is the insider. We sure as hell know that he won't be confiding in Lionel so I can't see Lex betraying Clark.

My point is, in his POV, there is NO reason for Clark not to trust Lex. In fact, it'll be better off that Lex knows.

Edited by TWoP Tennison, Jun 2, 2009 @ 10:11 AM.


#2

megan

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Posted Dec 31, 2003 @ 7:30 PM

Whenever Lex has seen some indication that his instincts about Clark not being normal are correct, like when he saw Clark step in front of Edge's car, Lex's response has not been "must protect my best friend" but "I knew you were a freak".


Me thinks this has troll odor. Everyone who's commented on the episode, those not even a fans, pretty much could see Lex was relieved that he wasn't crazy about Clark and was trying to verify his knowledge with the people he thought saw it all too. He NEVER said or looked at Clark like Clark was a freak. Clark was the one looking paranoid and freaked, looking at Lex in horror. Lex looked as if he'd finally seen an angel or Jesus himself.

The upcoming promo clips, dream or not, has Lex looking thankful and begging for confirmation from Clark as he's being saved. Clark is in return looking at Lex with mercy, affection, and sorrow.

I just watched Leech, where Lex is begging Clark just tell him the truth I'm your friend. Lex is in search of the Truth, not a secret to use against and hurt Clark. When Lex does go bad/Anti-Clark it will be due to his recent psycho paranoid fits, thinking Clark is either against him or won't help him as he starts on his evil exploits that have nothing to do with Clark originally..

I guess Scully & Mulder are disturbed obsessive freaks, like Lex.

#3

keekee8000

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Posted Dec 31, 2003 @ 9:05 PM

I can't remember/figure out why Lex stole that blood. And why Lionel is interested in it too. If they don't know it's Clark's, what motive do they have for being interested in some random person's blood?

If someone knows and is bored could you clue me in? Thanks.

#4

Trevacious Guy

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Posted Dec 31, 2003 @ 9:59 PM

Sure, I'm home alone on New Year's Eve. Lemme see if I have this straight:

In the episode Fever, Lex may or may not have ever known Clark was sick, or that Helen went to the Kents to see him and drew a blood sample.

But, he knew Martha was in the hospital. And he saw Helen obsessing over this blood sample and was curious to get a peek at her scribbled notes, which she snatched away from him.

Meanwhile, Lex bought off a CDC man to bring him a copy of Martha's chart. He may have come to think the blood was Martha's. Knowing her illness was very unusual and involved green meteor dust, he wanted a look at it.

Lex later has the blood stolen, but feels guilty and decides not to have it analyzed, giving it back to Helen, who gives it (sells it?) to Lionel, never revealing the source.

Lionel DOES have it analyzed and discovers just how Precious it is... He ensnares Chloe into his web to get a look at her krypto-mutant research and learn what she knows about that special young man Clark Kent.

Morgan Edge at some point learns from Helen that the blood is valuable in some way and hires Kal to steal it so he can sell it for substantial profit back to Lionel.

And the rest is there in the two part season premiere. Morgan finds out who the blood came from, but "dies" before he can finish working out a deal to sell the source to Lionel. And Lionel is left thinking it was a setup and never true.

But he may still remember Morgan's words about Lionel's informant "holding out" on him, and start leaning on Chloe again.

And Lex, knowing that Lionel was so eager to gain the blood for himself, is probably wondering just what he found out about it.

Or maybe not... Lionel never did let on to Lex that it was special. So maybe as far as Lex knows, Lionel was only interested in it because Lex was.

#5

ShannenB2000

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Posted Dec 31, 2003 @ 10:38 PM

DTS has a new trailer for Asylum. A little more Lana than the other ones, but Lex looks to be laying the smackdown on Clark.

#6

screamin

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Posted Dec 31, 2003 @ 11:02 PM

His "affection" for Clark is less protective of Clark and the Kents than it is protective of what he sees as his little pet freak.....

How did you come to this conclusion? It sounds like you're using future knowledge to defend your argument, not anything that went down on the show.


For one, the stealing and reading of Martha's chart (which Trevacious Guy also mentioned) is a monstrous invasion of privacy, and, even if it was meant to be benevolent concern, it betrays the I-know-what's-best-for-you-better-than-you-do attitude that shows that some part of Lex considers Clark and the Kents a sort of possession whose privacy he can invade as he likes, rather than independent people whose rights he respects. Of course, his justification would be that he loves Clark and the Kents. Which is true. But there's something stalkerish about that feeling - at least in the way he expresses it.

Besides, Lex's insistence on knowing ALL about Clark - his intermittent, obssessive prying at his secret - isn't it, though much less tasteless and annoying - isn't it (dare I breathe it?) - isn't it somewhat Lanaesque?

{ducks and covers}

I poke my head out from behind my rock to add that I really DO like Lex as a character, and I think at this point I still feel that his character is Of The Good. And what I like MOST about the character is its complexity - you can SEE the seeds of future evil in him, you can still see he's got a chance to beat it, but it's clearly there. And I love that complexity.

{ducks again}

Edited by screamin, Dec 31, 2003 @ 11:05 PM.


#7

kwerkee

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Posted Dec 31, 2003 @ 11:07 PM

Thanks Shannen for the new trailer update.

So, Lex gets mad at Clark for not rescuing him?
Or for not telling the doctors that he's not crazy?

I'm being led to believe that the reason Clark wouldn't come clean with Lex after the memory wipe, is because he's afraid that Lex would get mad at him? Wada..?!

And screamin, stop ducking around so..

#8

Jaded482

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Posted Dec 31, 2003 @ 11:09 PM

"I'll never forgive you for this, Clark!"

Noooooooo!

This new trailer is breaking my heart. ::sniff::

And with that, I become a Video Archivist. Whee!

Edited by Jaded482, Dec 31, 2003 @ 11:10 PM.


#9

Cyb

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Posted Dec 31, 2003 @ 11:27 PM

I don't know what's going on in that trailer but Lex sounds really sexy with the growly shouting.

"As one reality is lost, a new love is found"... Yes, Lana getting a new boyfriend is certainly worthy of being paralleled with Lex losing his mind, his grip on reality, and possibly his only friendship.

I hope it's just one of those misleading trailers the WB is so famous for.

#10

keekee8000

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Posted Dec 31, 2003 @ 11:41 PM

Thanks TrevaciousGuy! It was really good of you to type that all out. I had forgotten that Lex is kind of obsessed with the Kents too, not just Clark. So it makes sense for him to basically be stockpiling as much info about them as possible.

And it's okay to be home alone on New Year's Eve. It's cold out there. And people really are overrated. Just yesterday I almost beat one to death with my shoe.

#11

Cannibal

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Posted Jan 1, 2004 @ 12:01 AM

Two things. That God IS has shaved. He’d look far too old for KK if he looked like his usual self (not that they look right even when he has shaved). Secondly, how is Eric (I’m guessing, it looks like him) able to take Clarks powers again?

5am, need sleep…

For one, the stealing and reading of Martha's chart (which Trevacious Guy also mentioned) is a monstrous invasion of privacy, and, even if it was meant to be benevolent concern, it betrays the I-know-what's-best-for-you-better-than...


I hadn't thought it was possible to see the character as anything but in a grey area.

Edited by Cannibal, Jan 1, 2004 @ 12:03 AM.


#12

Foxoa

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Posted Jan 1, 2004 @ 12:30 AM

Oh boy.... That last screencap on the third row. That's an angry face.

#13

clarkenwell

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Posted Jan 1, 2004 @ 1:07 AM

I'm being led to believe that the reason Clark wouldn't come clean with Lex after the memory wipe, is because he's afraid that Lex would get mad at him? Wada..?!


I think why Lex is angry is that he probably asks Clark to admit to the people at the asylum that he's an alien (so that the know that Lex isn't really crazy) but Clark isn't really going to ever do that, so all hell breaks loose.
This probably happens after Clark tries to rescue Lex but I bet the three FOTW interfere somewhere and they are caught.

IMO this is where Clark will make his first ever rational decision (I believe in Shattered, he was too scared at Lex having found out and he ran), this time it's a conscious decision but a very hard one because Lex is asking him to practically commit personal suicide. To jeorpardaise everything about his life, parents, friends just to prove Lex right (he would probably have to make them beileve him by showing something alien-like about him). Hell he can barely bring himself to admit to his friends who he is never mind perfect dangerous strangers.

I doubt that Lex is fully aware of what he's asking Clark to do, all he wants is out of that place and anyhow will do. I don't know about him willing to sacrifice Clark and his secret when the result will be Clark probably getting his own lovely lab with Lionel smiling in the wings. Lex can't see that or doesn't want to and he's extremely annoyed at Clark's reluctance to do what he wants. This also tells me that Lex was never angry at Clark for what happened at the end of Shattered but this he's livid about.

I know two things will happen at the end of Asylum, Lex will forget what Clark is and Clark will live with the decision he made. Whatever the rights and wrongs of Lex even putting Clark in that position in the first place or Clark making the decision it will make for a compelling TV.

The only saving grace is that Lex won't remember, only Clark will. Something else to add to his ever growing guilt complex, I won't be surprised if snaps by the end of the season.


Besides, Lex's insistence on knowing ALL about Clark - his intermittent, obssessive prying at his secret - isn't it, though much less tasteless and annoying - isn't it (dare I breathe it?) - isn't it somewhat Lanaesque?

{ducks and covers}


You probably should duck for ever suggesting something so horrible about dear wonderful Lex.

Edited by clarkenwell, Jan 1, 2004 @ 1:18 AM.


#14

leaping lucas

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Posted Jan 1, 2004 @ 2:19 AM

IMO this is where Clark will make his first ever rational decision (I believe in Shattered, he was too scared at Lex having found out and he ran), this time it's a conscious decision but a very hard one because Lex is asking him to practically commit personal suicide. To jeorpardaise everything about his life, parents, friends just to prove Lex right


Given what we have been shown, I don't think you can reduce Lex's quest to have Clark reveal his secret as simply about 'just trying to prove himself right'.

The characters of Clark and Lex have been drawn living parallel destinies.

In the same way that Clark has been desperate to find out why he was sent to Earth, to escape the genetic imprint of an apparently meglomaniac father and to make his own place in the world, Lex has been doing the same.

In Lex's mind, he feels he should have died the day of the meteor shower and that Clark gave him another chance. To Lex, Clark is the only person strong enough and good enough and loyal enough to help Lex crawl out of the jaws of cruel destiny. Lex is strong, but he can't do it on his own. Lex's quest to discover the truth about the day at the bridge has not been some detached scientific experiment. It's been about finding out the truth about why he's here and what he's meant to do. It's about forging a life away from his father.

Clark was every bit as obsessed with the Kawatchi (sp?) caves and the alien messages as Lex was with the Kents -- and for pretty much the same reasons. Both Clark and Lex, in pursuing their need to unearth these mysteries, stumbled unknowingly into things they didn't understand, tried clumsily to fix it and caused the deaths of others.

Neither are averse to using illegal methods to obtain information when they need to know something. Neither has managed to stay on the straight and narrow.

Clark has tried to escape the pain using RedK and has done some terrible things. Similarly drugged up on mutant plants or hallucinogens, Lex has also done some things that would shame him in his right mind. Again the parallels are always there.

Sure, you can argue that Lex finding out once and for all about Clark means extreme danger for Clark (I'd argue with you though, especially with the part about it being "suicide"), but what are the consequences for Lex?

In a way, the "to tell or not to tell" dilemma is the wedge that separates their parallel destinies, a set of scales that will tip one way or the other, preserving one character's life and sanity and condemning the other to a lifetime of torture.

In one scenario, Clark exposes his secret, risking incarceration, experimentation, madness and torture. In the other scenario, Clark refuses to expose his secret, committing Lex to incarceration, experimentation, madness and torture.

One finds oneself wishing for a third scenario, where they join forces to protect Clark's secret, but that ain't gonna happen.

But I strongly disagree that the stakes for Clark are the loss of his family, his friends, his life -- while the stakes for Lex are the loss of a mere pet project.

In fact, as Lex has been shown consistently to have so many good, moral, decent, loyal qualities mixed in with all the mental abuse and social rejection, I often find myself feeling quite angry towards the Kents that their brand of protection is basically sacrificing Lex to protect Clark. Sacrificing everybody and everything to protect Clark. There comes a time when that starts to seem selfish and inhumane.

In essence I see this story sacrificing the man Lex could have been to Clark's secret. Sure, I know "evil is a choice", but I don't see that in this particular scenario, Lex has been given any choices.

#15

lexualhealing

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Posted Jan 1, 2004 @ 2:44 AM

For one, the stealing and reading of Martha's chart (which Trevacious Guy also mentioned) is a monstrous invasion of privacy, and, even if it was meant to be benevolent concern, it betrays the I-know-what's-best-for-you-better-than-you-do attitude that shows that some part of Lex considers Clark and the Kents a sort of possession whose privacy he can invade as he likes, rather than independent people whose rights he respects. Of course, his justification would be that he loves Clark and the Kents. Which is true. But there's something stalkerish about that feeling - at least in the way he expresses it.


Actually, I agree with this and I was quite pissed at Lex for stealing the blood but you kinda proved my point. The character is grey. Vallegirl's assesment was that he was more of a stalker than a friend when actually both qualities co-exist in him. ETA I know that was your point but I feel it needed to be stressed.

Besides, Lex's insistence on knowing ALL about Clark - his intermittent, obssessive prying at his secret - isn't it, though much less tasteless and annoying - isn't it (dare I breathe it?) - isn't it somewhat Lanaesque?


Actually, Lana's behavior in Season 2 was a mirror of Lex's behavior in Season One. Remember Lana doesn't have a character to call her own-she's just given traits of better characters.

Edited by lexualhealing, Jan 1, 2004 @ 4:15 AM.


#16

clarkenwell

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Posted Jan 1, 2004 @ 3:04 AM

Sure, you can argue that Lex finding out once and for all about Clark means extreme danger for Clark (I'd argue with you though, especially with the part about it being "suicide"), but what are the consequences for Lex?


Actually my arguement was Clark would be committing suicide in exposing himself to the doctors, nurses, ordelies, Lionel. It's like a one way ticket to a high security lab.
Lex already knows but now he wants Clark to colloborate his story in order to free him. It's the decision Clark has to live with and the fact that Lex will be minus a portion of his memory.

Neither are averse to using illegal methods to obtain information when they need to know something. Neither has managed to stay on the straight and narrow.


Yes, Clark and Lex aren't averse to breaking and entering. And obviously Lex hasn't learned from Insurgence about making deals with people that aren't trustworthy. He should always have leverage against them. It isn't surprising that the three FOTW doublecrossed him.

But I strongly disagree that the stakes for Clark are the loss of his family, his friends, his life -- while the stakes for Lex are the loss of a mere pet project.


I never mentioned about the stakes of Lex's loss being a pet project. His stakes are a memory wiped out (I said this), this is the only way Lionel will ever let him out and Clark's are family, friends, life. His continuing friendship with Clark depends if he remembers what happens in Asylum, I'm sure they will make him forget about Shattered.

In fact, as Lex has been shown consistently to have so many good, moral, decent, loyal qualities mixed in with all the mental abuse and social rejection, I often find myself feeling quite angry towards the Kents that their brand of protection is basically sacrificing Lex to protect Clark. Sacrificing everybody and everything to protect Clark. There comes a time when that starts to seem selfish and inhumane.


I'm sorry have I missed something in that Clark is their son? And when it comes down to it between a choice to protect Clark or Lex they will always choose Clark and quite frankly I don't expect anything else. Who woudn't do anything to protect their child especially when that child isn't totally normal. It isn't selfish or humane rather the love a parent has for his/her child.
If Lionel had even a tenth of their love for their child then Lex wouldn't be in this predicament.

And Jonathan is really the only one that has extreme issues with the Luthors and Lex has known about that since the Pilot and even then that hatred has mellowed towards Lex.

Soon enough a lot of characters on this show will make their choices and live with the consequences, Clark, Chloe, Lex, Lionel. And it won't be blamed on anyone else.

Edited by clarkenwell, Jan 1, 2004 @ 3:09 AM.


#17

mobiusklein

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Posted Jan 1, 2004 @ 3:15 AM

I often find myself feeling quite angry towards the Kents that their brand of protection is basically sacrificing Lex to protect Clark. Sacrificing everybody and everything to protect Clark. There comes a time when that starts to seem selfish and inhumane.


I like to note that the Kents were completely ready to sacrifice Ryan in "Ryan" to protect Clark, a child who has done nothing to hurt them & never ratted on them or investigated them or anything. So, it's not just Lex. Also remember they sent an ALIEN who they knew was stronger than usual AND had tantrums to public elementary school with other people's kids. Wow, talk about not caring about the public welfare and of course, putting the Ross family at a disadvantage when it came to dealing with Lionel. They knew their son was committing felonies in Metropolis during the summer yet I have doubts about whether the safety of the others really entered into their thoughts. I think that there's something called one's responsibility towards society. Honestly, if I was Clark's dad and if Jor-El didn't want to help me, I would be making Kryptonite bullets like Van if that was the only way to stop him.

I think that it's interesting how far BOTH Jonathan & Lionel are ready to ignore other people's welfare for the sake of their sons. I really think this proves that the Kents' hands aren't completely clean either.

#18

clarkenwell

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Posted Jan 1, 2004 @ 3:55 AM

I like to note that the Kents were completely ready to sacrifice Ryan in "Ryan" to protect Clark, a child who has done nothing to hurt them & never ratted on them or investigated them or anything.


In Stray they took Ryan in but had to give him back to his guardians (there was no sacrifice for Clark) and in Ryan they were angry with Clark for breaking the law, breaking and entering, kidnapping of a minor. All serious offences. It's been awhile since I saw the episode but I'm pretty sure there wasn't any careless regard for Ryan.

Also remember they sent an ALIEN who they knew was stronger than usual AND had tantrums to public elementary school with other people's kids.


I thought they waited until Clark could control his strenght and learn not to play rough before he was sent to school. Sure he still threw tantrums but he never hurt anyone (and I always got the impression that these tantrums were all when he was on the farm and in other people's company he was always a shy boy). Or am I missing something here, feel free to correct me.

I think that it's interesting how far BOTH Jonathan & Lionel are ready to ignore other people's welfare for the sake of their sons. I really think this proves that the Kents' hands aren't completely clean either.


This show has been pretty good in showing that the Kents are over-protective of Clark. This is the same boy that the sheltered to such an extent that by the time he meets Lex he's an extremely naive, innocent boy and he's still that in so many ways. And they've always been willing to do *anything* for him and this you *cannot* compare with Lionel.

This is what Shattered was all about, Lionel was ready to sacrifice his son for his sake and this is something the Kents would never do. They just believe in protecting Clark.
And that's kind of mellowed this season because Clark has so far been perfectly capable of protecting himself except for Extinction which proved that sometimes he will always need his parents. But at the end he still took care of business himself.

#19

leaping lucas

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Posted Jan 1, 2004 @ 5:10 AM

clarkenwell wrote:

And when it comes down to it between a choice to protect Clark or Lex they will always choose Clark and quite frankly I don't expect anything else. Who woudn't do anything to protect their child especially when that child isn't totally normal. It isn't selfish or humane rather the love a parent has for his/her child.


I know what you mean, but I guess I always imagined the Kents (like my favourite Kents, the ones in the Dean Cain version) were the kind of folks who would find a way to do the RIGHT thing, not just the thing that was best for them. I understand the parental dilemma, their fierce protective instincts, but it just doesn't make the Kents very nice people in the end. What then makes them less self-serving than the Luthors, if everyone else must be sacrificed to their own needs? Let's not forget, it was the Kents that went to Lionel Luthor first, asking him to illegally arrange papers for their son. In turn, Jonathan sold out their friends, Pete's family. Jonathan actually opened this conduit of take and take that has ensnared their sons and somehow condemned them to a cycle of hatred.

It's like that old standard. Evil villain dangles Lois Lane over a vat of bubbling acid, and some stranger over another. Superman can save only one. Does he save Lois because he loves her? No, we demand that our superheroes go that extra mile to make the tough decisions. I know the Kents aren't meant to be Superheroes. But I still want them to be good. Special. The kind of people who go that extra mile to help others. Not just delivering muffins to the local old folks' home to make themselves feel good, but to risk themselves to help a friend. Lex has done it for them.

There was a moment in "Shattered", where Lionel turned up to level claims of insanity against Lex and Clark looked towards his parents, that Martha and Jonathan suddenly looked like they WANTED to believe Lex was crazy with all their hearts. They were too willing to believe Lionel, of all people. Too willing to have Lex carted out of their lives forever. I just found them more evil in that moment than anything I've ever seen Lex do, or probably ever will.

They have told Lex they accepted him into their family, gave him a compass so he could find his way and accepted his buying back the deed to their farm, and yet the minute he needs help -- not material help, just someone to listen to his side of the story and accept that there might be something else going on -- they immediately and completely turned their backs on him, advising Clark to do the same. Their platitudes about Lex needing help I found demeaning and infuriating. I really, REALLY didn't like them in that moment.

Even in his dementia, Lex was so right branding them the "Kent cabal". Willing to do anything or sacrifice anything to maintain their happy little family unit with their miracle son. If only there had been a scene where they were prepared to make an effort to help Lex, or at least listen to him.

And (the Kents) have always been willing to do *anything* for (Clark) and this you *cannot* compare with Lionel.


Actually, I think I can. Lionel's is the ultimate version of "tough love". He sees Lex as too soft, too emotional, too much like his mother. He's going to beat the soft edges off him until Lex can be strong and resiliant and fulfil his place as Luthor heir. Lionel believes this is his gift to his son.

I see evidence all the time that Lionel loves Lex very much. It's sick and cruel and selfish and indictable, but I think it's love nonetheless. Of course Lionel's version of love is drugging Lex to protect him from killing him. So it's no wonder Lex is pretty messed up.

If Lionel had even a tenth of their love for their child then Lex wouldn't be in this predicament.


But see, I think the Kents's love is not altogether healthy either. It's selfish, it's stifling and with the benefit of the omniscient vantage point, I think you can make an argument that their brainwashing their son into believing sharing his secrets with trusted friends is to be avoided like Kryptonite, that they will have unwittingly condemned Clark to a cycle of loneliness, and contributed to a situation where Clark's most loyal friend becomes his most vicious enemy.

#20

kwerkee

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Posted Jan 1, 2004 @ 6:17 AM

clarkenwell suggested:

I think why Lex is angry is that he probably asks Clark to admit to the people at the asylum that he's an alien (so that the know that Lex isn't really crazy) but Clark isn't really going to ever do that, so all hell breaks loose.


Hate to admit it but I think this might be the 'personal benefit' I was saying that Lex would use Clark for. I was secretly hoping for something grander like he wants Clark to avenge him by blowing up LuthorCorp Tower. I guess it's too much to ask...

lexualhealing pointed out:

The character is grey.


WORD. Although I say Lex is a great friend, I also agree that his obsession with Clark is unsettling. This is my only gripe about Lex - that he does not leave Clark's secrets alone.

lexualhealing went on to say..

Lana's behavior in Season 2 was a mirror of Lex's behavior in Season One.


Please, do not compare Lex's fault as to that of Lana's immature clinginess.
I prefer to draw it in the same comparison as Chloe's interest in Clark. I hate the fact that she kept a file on him and checked up on his birth parents. Total invasion of privacy. Lex may seem to be more 'stalkish' but that's because he has more resources than she has. Chloe would have done more if she had them too. To her, she's not doing any harm and it was only to satisfy her innate curiosity. But when she realises that her work could hurt Clark, she did not betray him, no matter how dire her situation may be. That's a friend. Not a perfect friend but at least someone trustworthy enough. Lex goes one step further. He not only protects Clark but also the people around him (his parents, Ryan, Kyle - a guy that Lex doesn't even know but got him a doctor anyway.. all for Clark's sake).

In respond to leaping lucas

Lionel's version of love is drugging Lex to protect him from killing him.


Dude, that's not love in ANY form. That's a selfish act. Lionel loves Lex, yes, that I agree. But only to the extent of having Lex not killed. He drugged Lex and have him restrained and roughed up in a prison-like environment, not for Lex's sake but for his own. He didn't want Lex to rat on his past misdeeds. What's love got to do with it? Got to do with it.

But see, I think the Kents' love is not altogether healthy either. It's selfish, it's stifling


Yes, Pa Kent needs a slap at the back of his head. But Clark didn't end up being paranoid like Pa Kent. He took it upon himself to tell Pete without consulting either his parents. So this bit of Kent upbringing did not affect Clark's trust in people. He isn't 'fessing up to Chloe and Lana because he himself decided not to. Not because Daddy forbids it. Other than this, the Kents have brought up Clark beautifully.

They have told Lex they accepted him into their family... and yet the minute he needs help -- not material help, just someone to listen to his side of the story and accept that there might be something else going on -- they immediately and completely turned their backs on him, advising Clark to do the same.

I have to WORD this. I didn't get why the Kents would turn their backs on Lex at that time. If it were in the first season, it's understandable that Pa Kent would prefer to have nothing to do with the Luthors. But as of right now, the relationship between Lex and them seems fine, accepting Lex's invitation sit with him at his wedding, the compass gift, buying back the farm. I really thought they have finally accepted him. However, I'm willing to overlook this as a writing hitch, considering 'Shattered' is too beautiful.

Who knew I would be spending New Year's Day fussing over a bald guy..

#21

clarkenwell

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Posted Jan 1, 2004 @ 6:53 AM

I know what you mean, but I guess I always imagined the Kents (like my favourite Kents, the ones in the Dean Cain version) were the kind of folks who would find a way to do the RIGHT thing, not just the thing that was best for them.


The Kents in L&C were much older and less protective, they lived far away and pretty much left Clark to his own decisions. Of course it helped that the Dean Cain version was a good twelve year older than the one in Smallville and doesn't to be protected as much. They only came to Metropolis when Clark was in extreme trouble and usually to lend support and give advice and let that Clark make his own decisions.
But I still think they would have done anything for Clark, they would do the right thing but never at the expense of their son or exposing him to the world.
That's something every Kent incarnation has always had, the ability to lie about Clark, protect him and counsel him. It never changes even if the become older, younger or different.
The ones in Smalliville are on the extreme scale of that, more protective, more inclined to lecture.

There was a moment in "Shattered", where Lionel turned up to level claims of insanity against Lex and Clark looked towards his parents, that Martha and Jonathan suddenly looked like they WANTED to believe Lex was crazy with all their hearts. They were too willing to believe Lionel, of all people. Too willing to have Lex carted out of their lives forever. I just found them more evil in that moment than anything I've ever seen Lex do, or probably ever will.


I agree about Shattered because Jonathan would rather cut off his arm than believe anything Lionel says. Clark wasn't in danger so it wasn't even about sacrificing Lex for Clark. They just beileved Lionel for reasons I'm not sure of and it reinforces that assessment that they aren't the perfect people. It might be the writers gorgetting about Phoenix where the Kents accepted Lex into the family.

But then again they've never been portaryed as being the most perfect people. Jonathan lurches from hostility to genility and right back (he was all of that in one episode). Martha used to be spunky until S3 where she now defers to Jonathan to extreme proportions.

As for finding them more evil than Lex, he hasn't even done anything truly evil yet (we will know when he does). The Kents' might not even even come close with their own brand of loyalty.

But see, I think the Kents' love is not altogether healthy either. It's selfish, it's stifling and with the benefit of the omniscient vantage point, I think you can make an argument that their brainwashing their son into believing sharing his secrets with trusted friends is to be avoided like Kryptonite, that they will have unwittingly condemned Clark to a cycle of loneliness, and contributed to a situation where Clark's most loyal friend becomes his most vicious enemy.


I think there's an element of the Kents' teaching Clark about being sure who tells all. Clark's a stubborn boy, he will listen to his parents but in the end he will make his own choices. Sometimes he never tells his parents and just does what he thinks is right, Stray, Ryan, Exodus, Shattered.

His decision not to tell his friends is a combination of his many things
fears of their reaction (he tests Chloe and Lana in Visitor),
fear of what the world does to people who are different - Ryan and everyother FOTW who has been railroaded into a lab or asylum,
and of course probably the most important the fear of endangering them. For this reason he lets Lana go and sticks to that decision even after she pressures him. All he had to do have her was to tell her (something he's wanted very badly) but he still doesn't.

Of course Clark's nature doesn't help matters, he's introverted. He will prefer to deal with his problems by himself rather than endanger anyone else.

that they will have unwittingly condemned Clark to a cycle of loneliness,


I really don't think he's going to be lonely as Clark Kent because by the time he meets Lois he would have learnt to let people in (but it would still take years before he even tells her about him) but as Superman, Kal-el there's a chance he might be lonely especially as he's doomed to outlive everyone.


Lionel's love is the kind that leads him
to remove a part of his sons memory because he wants to control him,
he pays a woman to worm her way into Lex's life then betray him,
he sleeps with his son's girl friends,
he drugs his own son.

That's love of a poisonous kind and I see a total difference between that and the Kents'. Jonathan's love is tough love (re: Exodus) because he holds Clark to higher responsibility than anyone else, but Lionel's is of another dangerous level. The kind that makes Lex run whenever he sees Lionel coming.


By the way, anyone has any ideas who Clark is saying this to, "How could you do this to me?"

Edited by clarkenwell, Jan 1, 2004 @ 7:02 AM.


#22

kwerkee

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Posted Jan 1, 2004 @ 7:10 AM

By the way, anyone has any ideas who Clark is saying this to, "How could you do this to me?"

Judging from the anger in his voice, I think it's Lex.
ETA: Or Eric as he sucks the powers out of him.

Edited by kwerkee, Jan 1, 2004 @ 7:24 AM.


#23

Cyb

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Posted Jan 1, 2004 @ 7:53 AM

Any chance Lex is still hallucinating the part where he says "I'll never forgive you for this!"? If Lex did indeed "know all along" that Clark was an alien/freak/etc, and didn't seek to exploit or expose him, I have a hard time believing he'd now ask Clark to tell his doctors that "Yep! I have super powers!" Even if it meant his freedom. Maybe they've just succeeded too well in making Lex a sympathetic character because I can't quite get my head around that. (Or if you don't believe in a sympathetic Lex, a fairly intelligent Lex would want Clark's secret powers for himself and not just give them away to doctors.) So is Lex still stoned out of his gourd or is there something else he can't forgive Clark for? ("I told you to bring my pajamas and you didn't! Bastard!!!")

At the same time, I can't imagine the circumstances in which Clark would really let Lex be kept at Belle Reve, especially in this season where he's New and Improved Mature and Responsible Clark. He knows Lex was drugged and set up and is basically a prisoner. Did he just let Hootie go free after the arm-twisting? Did he let the sniper go free after he got Edge's address? All that should be enough to get Lex out of there.

Edited by Cyb, Jan 1, 2004 @ 7:58 AM.


#24

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Posted Jan 1, 2004 @ 9:34 AM

Please, do not compare Lex's fault as to that of Lana's immature clinginess.
I prefer to draw it in the same comparison as Chloe's interest in Clark


I like the Lex/Chloe comparsion because Lex and Chloe are smart enough and have the resources to find the info they need on their own but Lana's journey in Season 2 was like Lex's in Season 1. They thought they witnessed Clark miraculously save their lives and they both wanted to know how. The difference of course, is how they went about trying to get Clark to tell the truth. Lex and Lana both asked Clark for the truth but when he didn't give it to them, Lex went off to find information for himself and Lana continued to whine. Not only did Lana use the Lex's "relationship with secret is doomed to fail" line from Tempest, they even had a Clana version of the Clexian CPR scene. I'll stop talking about Season 2 now because it gives me headaches and

TOPIC: Methinks Asylum will be the beginning of the end for the Clex relationship and I'm not talking about what I've seen in the preview either.;)

Edited by lexualhealing, Jan 1, 2004 @ 10:36 AM.


#25

mobiusklein

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Posted Jan 1, 2004 @ 12:29 PM

I think it should be noted that Al does say that Jonathan's behavior DOES contribute to Lex's slide over to the dark side. Also remember Pete remembers an incident during an episode in S1 where Chloe's trying to finish her homework assignment of interviewing Clark and talks about how once Clark shoved a kid through a door or something. He didn't send the guy to the hospital but yeah, there was at least one incident.

And yeah, things are getting mighty rifty.

Edited by mobiusklein, Jan 1, 2004 @ 12:30 PM.


#26

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Posted Jan 1, 2004 @ 12:45 PM

Just chiming in to say that Lex's line " I'll never forgive you for this" could be directed at Lionel. Just like Clark's "How could you do this to me?" could be directed at Chloe.

Remember, SV trailers tend to be extremely misleading.

#27

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Posted Jan 1, 2004 @ 1:10 PM

He says "I'll never forgive you for this, Clark!"

#28

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Posted Jan 1, 2004 @ 1:34 PM

Ooops! Hee. Boy, do I feel dumb now! But I'll chuck my stupidity down to the fact that I'm still very hung over from last night. Heh.

#29

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Posted Jan 1, 2004 @ 1:55 PM

No worries. You momentarily gave me hope, so I had to go check. But no... it's definitely directed towards Clark.

And though I'm a lurker, I'd like to say this is a fabulous conversation. I have to agree with leaping lucas on this one. The tragedy is that Lex could have been a good man. Lex as we see him still could be, and that's what makes Smallville so damn fascinating and heartwrenching. But we know their destinies are intertwined. Sitting on opposite sides of the scale, as it were. One only rises on the fall of the other. One has to be sacrificed in order for the other to make it out morally, emotionally, and physically intact. Lex is the one who gets sacrificed. I don't blame Clark for that, but I can't quite bring myself to blame Lex either. His curiosity in Clark is completely understandable to me, and I doubt I would have been any less vigilant in seeking out the truth of what I considered to be my salvation. I don't think that negates the deep affection he has for Clark, but Lex Luthor is a truth seeking personality type (NT in the Myers-Briggs test). Anyone out there who shares this classification knows that the lure truth is very hard to deny, even when it hurts people you care about. And there is no doubt in my mind how much Lex cares for Clark.

This situation was built up around and had many contributing factors (Lionel, the Kents, every bimbo who further shattered Lex's ability to trust). It's fated. I look forward to "Asylum". but my heart aches to see this relationship unravel.

Edited by Euphony, Jan 1, 2004 @ 1:56 PM.


#30

Tigrrr

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Posted Jan 1, 2004 @ 2:00 PM

Anyone out there who shares this classification knows that the lure truth is very hard to deny


De-lurking from flu induced coma to say WORD!