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#30781

YumYum

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Posted Apr 14, 2012 @ 8:07 AM

Closed captioning said "from others". And that makes more sense,IMO.

Edited by YumYum, Apr 14, 2012 @ 8:07 AM.

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#30782

converse1973

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Posted Apr 14, 2012 @ 10:06 AM

As for Tony's last line, I'm still trying to figure that out. I'm not sure what the writers were going for there and if this was some sort of epiphany for Tony I didn't see when it happened in this particular episode. We had the whole of season 4 where you got the idea that Ziva had feelings for Tony but he was completely oblivious to them, are we going to do that from Tony's perspective now? Please don't. I don't truly care whether or not they get together, but I am not crazy about the back and forth. My favorite way to see this type of relationship evolve is a nice slow recognition that they care more about each other then they had originally realized and then as two adults they take it to the next step. No high drama. I thought they were going in that direction which is why I have been warming to the relationship. I like them snarky with each other, but not combative.


I think the difference between season 4 and now is, firstly, both Tony and Ziva are single. Secondly, I do wonder if we'll see them slowly recognize that they have feelings for each other, etc. because it seems like it could be going that way. The Spanish doesn't make his quotation accessible to many if not most viewers in the U.S. at least, but it is connected to Monique's "he's more than what he seems" quotation. He's not monolingual - no disrespect to the monolingual among us. But Tony as being something else underneath the clowning has definitely been the theme of the season for his arc. It would be completely on the nose if he said that in English. But he said it in Spanish, and seemed to cover himself up by pretending (?) it was from a movie? So we have him reverting to movie-quoting Tony to cover the fact that he's not quite ready voice whatever feelings he has to tell Ziva? It really depends on how you see things, but from my perspective, Tony's already had that epiphany. I think it's clear he has feelings for Ziva and just doesn't know if he should tell her, but those feelings come out in more "subtle" ways...which, as stated above could be connected to an inability to keep things "bottled up forever."

I don't know how oblivious Ziva is to Tony's feelings. Honestly, if I were in Ziva's place, I wouldn't be too sure what he felt either. Also, given Ziva's reaction to Wendy, I'm thinking she feeling "feelings" too. So they may be on the same page and just not know it? If they do take it the next step in the near or distance future, I do wonder what Gibbs' reaction will be. As far as I can tell from Tony's conversation with Gibbs when he was with EJ, the "never date a coworker" rule is not department policy. It's one of Gibbs' personal commandments.

Edited by converse1973, Apr 14, 2012 @ 10:19 AM.

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#30783

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Posted Apr 14, 2012 @ 10:44 AM

I think it's clear he has feelings for Ziva and just doesn't know if he should tell her,


Maybe I'm not understanding something, but didn't he literally just tell her? He spoke in Spanish. Ziva understands Spanish, so I assume she understood him, didn't she? The Puss-in-Boots reference would have made sense if he spoke in a language that Ziva didn't know. That would have been hiding something, but as far as I can tell, he did the exact opposite of hiding what he was saying. So, is the point that he's making that he's no longer willing to hide how he feels?

I don't even like Tony and Ziva, and even I found that scene confusing!

Edited by Ohmo, Apr 14, 2012 @ 10:45 AM.

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#30784

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Posted Apr 14, 2012 @ 11:13 AM

Yes, that's a Gibbs rule, not an NCIS rule. The current Director of NCIS is married to an NCIS agent and has been for years. I haven't seen "Puss-in-Boots" so don't know, but I assume that the character ocassionally spoke in Spanish and that was the reason Tony said his line in Spanish. I do not think they could have made this more confusing if they had tried.

One of the things I found interestng in "Life Before His Eyes" was that Tony seemed much more happy with Gibbs not around. He was a more mature better grounded person. He seemed to thrive as the leader of his team, as they have shown in the past. I am not sure why they keep doing this, but I think they show us that Tony is actually better off without Gibbs' thumb on him all of the time.

As for Ziva, the way I saw it she was wrong about Ari, her father used her and Michael used her. The latter two used her loyalty to do, without her real knowledge, a number of things we can only assume she would not have gone along with. Perhaps I'm wrong and she was completely aware of why Michael was in town and exactly what he was doing, including killing the ICE agent, but that wasn't the impression I had. But then again, perhaps I'm wrong.
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#30785

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Posted Apr 14, 2012 @ 11:31 AM

Ziva knew what Rivkin was doing or she wouldn't have tried to get him extracted.
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#30786

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Posted Apr 14, 2012 @ 4:04 PM

If they do take it the next step in the near or distance future, I do wonder what Gibbs' reaction will be. As far as I can tell from Tony's conversation with Gibbs when he was with EJ, the "never date a coworker" rule is not department policy. It's one of Gibbs' personal commandments.



Yes, that's a Gibbs rule, not an NCIS rule. The current Director of NCIS is married to an NCIS agent and has been for years.


Dating a fellow NCIS agent is not against the rules, either Gibbs rules or the actual ones. Dating a fellow agent on the same team would be a whole different situation and I think it highly unlikely that NCIS departmental policy would allow it. Either Ziva or Tony would have to transfer to another team. Well, either that or they'd have to sneak around behind Gibbs's back and pretend they weren't seeing each other, and boy would there be ructions when Gibbs would find out.
(of course judging by past canon he'd likely forgive Ziva and rip Tony a new one)
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#30787

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Posted Apr 14, 2012 @ 5:13 PM

Ziva knew what Rivkin was doing or she wouldn't have tried to get him extracted.


She didn't know until he was was deep into his plan. I think she had a feeling something hinky was going on but wasn't sure what, and didn't want to say anything, since Tony was giving her such crap over the whole thing by that point, and she didn't want to believe that everything might be a whole huge set-up orchestrated by Eli. But she didn't try to extract him until Tony was already at the apartment getting into it with Rivkin.

The current Director of NCIS is married to an NCIS agent and has been for years.


Wait, Jackie Vance is an NCIS agent? Or the real-life counterpart?
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#30788

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Posted Apr 14, 2012 @ 7:37 PM

I'm basically going on what Hadar said to Ziva, "You knew and did nothing until it was too late." or something like that.

There's also the emails that Abby and McGee found between Ziva and Rivkin.

I still cannot for the life of me understand what the hell TPTB were thinking with this storyline, how was it suppose to push the series forward? All it did was make people hate Ziva. Honestly, it was a huge WTF.


I think they mean in real life, Lyssanick.

Edited by SterlingMArcher, Apr 14, 2012 @ 7:38 PM.

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#30789

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Posted Apr 15, 2012 @ 6:09 AM

Closed captioning said "from others". And that makes more sense,IMO.

Thanks for the inadvertent tip, and "others" does make more sense. I know I have the closed caption feature because I've turned it on by accident, now I need to figure out how to turn it on deliberately, because on more then a few occasions I don't understand the mumblings of an actor.
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#30790

converse1973

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Posted Apr 15, 2012 @ 9:21 AM

One of the things I found interestng in "Life Before His Eyes" was that Tony seemed much more happy with Gibbs not around. He was a more mature better grounded person. He seemed to thrive as the leader of his team, as they have shown in the past. I am not sure why they keep doing this, but I think they show us that Tony is actually better off without Gibbs' thumb on him all of the time.


I think he'd be better off without Gibbs's thumb on him. At some point, one or both of them needs to cut the cord, and I assume Tony would have to be the one to do it. It might be the only way for Tony to begin to trust himself and his own authority as a leader. Gibbs has been good for Tony, but sometimes I think there's something unhealthy about their relationship. Not that I mind, since I find that makes their dynamic interesting if not frustrating, too. Tony *thinks* he still needs Gibbs. He still looks up to him, which makes sense, as the only other father figure he has in his life is a complete flake and totally unreliable. However, his reliance on Gibbs as his superego of sorts means that Tony doesn't have to necessarily trust his own voice, and Gibbs can be quite contradictory in his approach to Tony - and always has been. I'm not sure if Gibbs is as critical with anyone else on the team as he is with Tony. At once he criticizes Tony's approach to things yet always seems to trust Tony's gut, and I think that puts Tony in a place to second guess himself constantly. So whatever the show's reason for doing this, I kind of agree with their conclusion. Something's been "hinky" about Tony/Gibbs relationship for me since Gibbs'return as team leader in season 4, which was treated as if the rightful king has been restored to the throne.

I think Tony could have been happier back then, too, because since Kate's death and then the events during and after season 4 - none of which would have happened in the AU - Tony's accumulated a lot more emotional baggage.

Edited by converse1973, Apr 15, 2012 @ 9:34 AM.

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#30791

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Posted Apr 15, 2012 @ 10:43 AM

I think Tony could have been happier back then, too, because since Kate's death and then the events during and after season 4 - none of which would have happened in the AU - Tony's accumulated a lot more emotional baggage.


While that's true, I cant believe that there weren't instances in the AU that created emotional baggage. It just seems like they are trying to tell us two different things at the same time. Tony needs Gibbs and Tony is better off without Gibbs. The question is, now that Gibbs has experienced his AU, what else is he going to do? It does seem he treats Tony differently, though it is a very subtle difference but I'm getting this different vibe from Gibbs towards Tony. I think Gibbs learned many things in that 2 seconds of his life.

Going back to the "others" remark Monique made, I liked it. I hope Ziva takes it to heart. She does need to find her happiness within. I have never thought of her looking for her happy in others, but I have always thought that she needed the loyalty thing to feel that what she was doing was for the greater good. She needed a cause if you will, to feel good about herself. Now I want her to look inside to feel good about herself. How much of the whole fighting ninja is Ziva's facade? Being tough is important, but having a little humility is vitally important and being a little vulnerable is not a bad thing. It's all about balance.
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#30792

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Posted Apr 15, 2012 @ 12:48 PM

The question is, now that Gibbs has experienced his AU, what else is he going to do? It does seem he treats Tony differently, though it is a very subtle difference but I'm getting this different vibe from Gibbs towards Tony. I think Gibbs learned many things in that 2 seconds of his life.


In what way? Honestly curious about your POV....
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#30793

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Posted Apr 15, 2012 @ 2:20 PM

ceindreadh, I agree. It is dating someone on the same field team that would probably be against NCIS policy and frankly was also what I thought Gibbs' rule was up until he threw a fit about EJ. After all he didn't take issue with Abby/McGee nor Tony/Paula having periodic booty calls. Even in his reaction to EJ I felt like his invoking Rule 12 was more about not wanting to explain his real issues (not trusting EJ because she was SecNav's niece and being concerned that Tony was thinking about making a change) rather than actually believe it came into play in that case. The reason I say that is Tony kept dating her and Gibbs didn't do a thing about it.

As for the merits of Rule #12 I actually agree with Gibbs that people on the same field team shouldn't be involved which is why I can't imagine how them ever going there with Tony/Ziva would work.

VirginiBound, I don't buy the conflict of interest argument for her inability to see when people are playing her. If she can't separate it out she should recuse herself in those situations. Take Ari. Her father and by extension Mossad had proof he has gone rogue yet she took the assignment to prove his innocence. The second she realized she couldn't be objective she should have stepped down as his control officer. In that case NCIS and Mossad wanted the same thing - Ari gone.

Same with Rivkin. NCIS wanted him out once he went rogue. Hadar said that Ziva should have called for an extraction long before she did. Had she been able to be more objective or at the very least tell people she couldn't be objective she would have saved both NCIS and Mossad a headache.
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#30794

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Posted Apr 15, 2012 @ 4:59 PM

In what way? Honestly curious about your POV....


Just little things. Like the episode where Tony was trying to be quiet Gibbs point blank asked his opinion and this last episode when Gibbs kept speaking directly to Tony and ignored everyone else during the Skipe call (I know it's not Skipe, but I couldn't think what it was). As I say little things, there have only been a handful of episodes since Gibbs' life changing moment so it's too soon to tell. Also, some writers are having a hard time writing Tony as more then the class clown. The writer of this last episode was spot on with the older wiser Tony interpretation.

The CIA likes married couples as team mates. Especially when going undercover. A married couple just know each other so much better and there are little signles they can give to one another that are harder to develop in simply a team mate. Of course, this is for undercover work. If something goes wrong with the marriage they simply change partners, no big deal. These are professionals and they know that their lives depend on being professional. Petty arguements don't get in the way.

I do not believe that NCIS has a rule about married couples being on the same team. In one of DPB's first interviews about NCIS he said he had spent time at NCIS headquarters and noticed that there were a lot of married couples working together. He liked that and thought he could use it. Of course he then immediately introduced Rule 12 so I assume he wanted to make it as difficult as possible or changed his mind about using it.
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#30795

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Posted Apr 15, 2012 @ 5:20 PM

I don't buy the conflict of interest argument for her inability to see when people are playing her. If she can't separate it out she should recuse herself in those situations. Take Ari. Her father and by extension Mossad had proof he has gone rogue yet she took the assignment to prove his innocence. The second she realized she couldn't be objective she should have stepped down as his control officer. In that case NCIS and Mossad wanted the same thing - Ari gone.

Same with Rivkin. NCIS wanted him out once he went rogue. Hadar said that Ziva should have called for an extraction long before she did. Had she been able to be more objective or at the very least tell people she couldn't be objective she would have saved both NCIS and Mossad a headache.



The issue that I keep having with Ziva and her various contacts from here and far is that the issue of her potentially divided loyalties has never been officially addressed. Tony's "Intermole" comment was great, and his unwillingness to just accept Monique because Ziva said so was spot on. Ziva's "Are you kidding me" was ridiculous, and I'm glad Tony stood firm. He works for an American agency and Monique had said that she had recently been with Interpol, but her services were now available to whoever was willing to pay. That could be a security risk, and it's not good enough that Ziva says Monique's A-OK.

Ziva is a person of foreign birth who is choosing to work for an American federal agency, and I wish that Vance would really discuss the potential of a conflict of interest with her. Eli David would be within his right to question an American who wanted to work for Mossad. Mossad's interests are the safety and security of Israel. Any U. S. federal agency is charged with whatever will benefit or protect the United States. Every country has particular national interests. That's why foreign agencies exist.

Ziva, because of where she was born, the life that she has led, and the people that she knows, can be an asset to the United States, but she could also be a risk. I wish Vance would at least have a conversation about it, and I wish Ziva would understand that's it's a valid conversation to have, considering what she does for a living.

ETA:

...this last episode when Gibbs kept speaking directly to Tony and ignored everyone else during the Skipe call. (I know it's not Skipe, but I couldn't think what it was).


MTAC, and I only mention that because the above was one of my favorite parts of the episode.

Edited by Ohmo, Apr 15, 2012 @ 5:29 PM.

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#30796

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Posted Apr 15, 2012 @ 6:01 PM

ust little things. Like the episode where Tony was trying to be quiet Gibbs point blank asked his opinion and this last episode when Gibbs kept speaking directly to Tony and ignored everyone else during the Skipe call (I know it's not Skipe, but I couldn't think what it was). As I say little things, there have only been a handful of episodes since Gibbs' life changing moment so it's too soon to tell. Also, some writers are having a hard time writing Tony as more then the class clown. The writer of this last episode was spot on with the older wiser Tony interpretation.


Yeah, I'd agree with your interpretation. I wasn't sure if everyone saw that or if it was just me seeing what I wanted to see, lol. I'm ready for all of them to grow up a little. :)
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#30797

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Posted Apr 15, 2012 @ 6:21 PM

IRL and not-NCIS (because I don't know anything about their policies), the usual marriage or relationship ban applies only to a boss-subordinate relationship. Most employee manuals prohibit dating or marriage of a boss to someone who reports to him.

It's less about being able to do your job, and more about special favors granted when the relationship is good, and retaliation when it isn't.

I personally don't like dating or marriage among team members where the team is important, even for such mundane things as accounting or management consulting. Private spats or excessive flirting can really screw up a team dynamic. I've seen it and had to deal with it as a supervisor, and it's bad - both with the excessive flirting and when the relationship crumbles. Yuck. Not fair to the team. Or the customer.
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#30798

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Posted Apr 15, 2012 @ 7:12 PM

Yeah, I'd agree with your interpretation. I wasn't sure if everyone saw that or if it was just me seeing what I wanted to see, lol. I'm ready for all of them to grow up a little. :)


There was also the episode (I think the one with SecNav), where Gibbs referred to Tony as his best agent in front of about six others.

Ziva, because of where she was born, the life that she has led, and the people that she knows, can be an asset to the United States, but she could also be a risk. I wish Vance would at least have a conversation about it, and I wish Ziva would understand that's it's a valid conversation to have, considering what she does for a living.


I think this part, more than the confusion over whether or not she knew what Rivkin's mission was, or whether she should have told Gibbs/Vance more about what she suspected is the part that is most botched. I never have understood why Eli wanted someone inside NCIS, specifically on Gibbs' team (if you go with Vance's retelling of events), or why Gibbs vouching for her post Good Cop-Bad Cop erased all of these questions. I'm still not even sure how she was able to remain in the country throughout season 7. The entire storyline had such potential, and turned into such a confused mess so quickly since the foundations of how-could-this-even-be-possible are such a huge impediment.
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#30799

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Posted Apr 15, 2012 @ 8:48 PM

MTAC, and I only mention that because the above was one of my favorite parts of the episode.


Thank you Ohmo MTAC was just not coming to me. It was one of my favorite scenes too.

And may I add that yippee, the shortcuts are working for me now, I can bold and

quote

and all that stuff. I'm pathetically thrilled about that.
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#30800

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Posted Apr 17, 2012 @ 6:49 AM

Here's hoping tonight's episode doesn't suck and for the love of Gibbs, no idiot!Tony, please.
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#30801

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Posted Apr 17, 2012 @ 8:04 PM

That was some real nice work with MW and Gaius Charles in the elevator. I can understand him not talking about the fire when a four year-old died, but how did we not know Tony was in the Final Four?
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#30802

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Posted Apr 17, 2012 @ 8:04 PM

Really good episode. Solid team work with everyone getting play. Also I feel like while we got to see why Tony became a cop it didn't take over the episode. I am officially intrigued by the season ending arc. The use of fire is both creepy and a new angle that hasn't been used as part of crimes in the past (or if it has it has been really minor). Speaking of creepy great casting on the arsonist guy. Dude gave me the chills more than any character on this show or other shows has in a long time. Also loved seeing Gaius Charles on TV again (guy who played Jason). Loved him on FNL and loved him here

AimingforYoko, That was my one quibble with the episode. I dislike it when TV shows aim the bar that high but to be fair it has been mentioned in the past (season 4). It would have been better if back then they made it a play-off game or better yet just an away game.

Edited by Binks, Apr 18, 2012 @ 3:14 PM.

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#30803

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Posted Apr 17, 2012 @ 8:12 PM

Most ridiculous episode ever. I'm supposed to believe Tony just ran into a burning building? For real?

Was glad Tony explained to Ziva that the Final Four was basketball, because I know zilch about basketball and had blanked on that.

I don't think we were supposed to think Tony was playing in the game.
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#30804

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Posted Apr 17, 2012 @ 8:17 PM

Most ridiculous episode ever. I'm supposed to believe Tony just ran into a burning building? For real?

Yeah, who does he think he is, Cory Booker?

I don't think we were supposed to think Tony was playing in the game.

Tony was full ride, so he was playing unless he was injured.
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#30805

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Posted Apr 17, 2012 @ 8:19 PM

MW is simply amazing when he's allowed to be.
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#30806

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Posted Apr 17, 2012 @ 8:21 PM

Most ridiculous episode ever. I'm supposed to believe Tony just ran into a burning building? For real?

I don't know, I believe it. The kind of people who gravitate towards jobs where they help people (healthcare, law enforcement, etc) tend to be the kind of people who would run into a burning building if they heard someone screaming. I think there would be more stories on the news, but, thankfully, the opportunity does not present itself frequently.
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#30807

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Posted Apr 17, 2012 @ 8:23 PM

""Agreed.

This is same man who ran towards 2 armed men, shooting them before diving into water and saving two people's lives. Normal people don't do that.
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#30808

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Posted Apr 17, 2012 @ 8:25 PM

Tony was playing in the game because he went for a walk to clear his head before the game and the reason he went into the burning building is because he heard a scream. He didn't just wander into it for the heck of it. I think any of the NCIS team would have done that even before they were agents so it doesn't surprise me he did. I tend to think that people who end up in law enforcement and fire and rescue and other type jobs have that mentality that would lead them to do just that.

One other thing I liked tonight was Abby seemed more mature.

Edited by Binks, Apr 17, 2012 @ 8:27 PM.

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#30809

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Posted Apr 17, 2012 @ 8:32 PM

I feel like this episode was just another way to pile on the "wonderfulness" of Tony arc that's been throughout this season. He's just so wonderful and perfect and emotional and misunderstood.

That said, the episode was far better written than last week. You can see the difference when the writers take their episodes seriously. And the beauty of not having a guest/recurring character take over.

I like the fire theme too.

I too think the Final Four thing is ridiculous, just as the NCIS team being the wedding party. It's fanfic-alicious.
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#30810

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Posted Apr 17, 2012 @ 8:39 PM

I don't think this episode was about Tony wonderfulness or perfection nor about him being misunderstood. People weren't going poor poor Tony throughout the episode nor was Tony feeling sorry for himself. Seems to me that he was at peace with what happened in that house even as he understood where Jason was coming from. They chatted it out in the elevator and that was that and while it was a part of the episode it didn't overtake it.

Compare that to last week they had Monica giving quite a run down of Ziva's positive attributes. Now I didn't mind it because it was nice to get a glimpse into Ziva's past but if that wasn't about her wonderfulness then I don't think this was.

As for the Final Four I cringed back in season 4 when it was first brought up. I actually have always disliked that Tony played first string (it seems) for both OSU football and basketball. To me that is the one really unrealistic thing about his character. DPB should have picked one sport back then and stuck with it. I would have said football simply because of his blown knee.

Edited by Binks, Apr 18, 2012 @ 3:15 PM.

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