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Season 5: Law & Luchadores


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#31

Teenes

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Posted Jan 10, 2004 @ 11:50 AM

Meanwhile, Spike (James Marsters) believes that if he can save Dana, he will prove that he is destined to be the vampire champion.


What? Oh Spike, Spike..you've got a lot to learn. Sigh...

Who's Brent Fletcher and has he ever written for Angel before?
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#32

SistaKaren

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Posted Jan 10, 2004 @ 12:13 PM

I'm still stuck on:

Andrew (guest star Tom Lenk, “Buffy the Vampire Slayer”), a watcher-in-training


A what?! He's a WHAT?! Jeez. What the hell? Ugh. Let's hope this is some promo spin or something, because that sounds pretty damn stupid. I like Andrew and all, but why isn't he in jail?
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#33

Edward1985

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Posted Jan 10, 2004 @ 12:30 PM

Who's Brent Fletcher and has he ever written for Angel before?


He's never written for the show before,he's the script coordinator. I might be sliding into off-topic territory,but that was Mere Smith's first job on Angel.

Edited by Edward1985, Jan 10, 2004 @ 12:31 PM.

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#34

Lila

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Posted Jan 10, 2004 @ 5:57 PM

I agree it's not exactly speculation, but how about we keep discussion about future episodes in the speculation topic and restrict this to episodes in S5 that have aired? That'll make it a little easier, I think. I'll edit the topic titles a little to try and make it clearer. Thanks!
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#35

HexLover

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Posted Jan 10, 2004 @ 7:25 PM

So, can you believe that Angelus had sex with Dru and Spike walked in on them?

Edited by HexLover, Jan 10, 2004 @ 8:31 PM.

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#36

babybluez

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Posted Jan 10, 2004 @ 7:57 PM

I really didn't like that scene in Destiny because in the BtVS episode WML pt2, Spike seemed positively shocked at the idea that Dru may have boinked Angel. I know he's good at deluding himself but that seems a bit much.
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#37

luvprue

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Posted Jan 10, 2004 @ 8:39 PM

A what?! He's a WHAT?! Jeez. What the hell? Ugh. Let's hope this is some promo spin or something, because that sounds pretty damn stupid. I like Andrew and all, but why isn't he in jail?


...because he would then have to explain what happen to his friend "Warren and how dark Willow had killed him

Edited by luvprue, Jan 10, 2004 @ 8:40 PM.

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#38

1formybaby

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Posted Jan 10, 2004 @ 9:28 PM

So, can you believe that Angelus had sex with Dru and Spike walked in on them?

I can't tell if this is a joke or not - sorry Hexlover.

I thought it was pretty clear that Angelus and Drusilla had a sexual relationship for about 20 years (1860-1880) and then on-and-off for the following 20 years. That's no short relationship, even if Darla was Angelus' primary lover.
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#39

TrudiRose

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Posted Jan 11, 2004 @ 7:49 AM

I'm not Hexlover, but since Strega had just said "Don't talk about future episodes here!" and Hex's post is edited, I thought it was Hex's way of changing the subject. Kind of the "Angel" equivalent of, "So, how about those Yankees, huh?"
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#40

HexLover

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Posted Jan 11, 2004 @ 9:22 AM

Exactly.

"So, how about those Yankees, huh?"


That's a baseball team right?

Edited by HexLover, Jan 11, 2004 @ 9:41 AM.

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#41

raramama

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Posted Jan 12, 2004 @ 3:21 PM

What irritates me more than anything is that I had so much emotional investment in season 4, and, essentially, that season never happened. At least, I don't know what parts of it happened and what parts didn't. And it's making me cranky.

This essentially this is how I'm feeling. Angel has been more than appointment tv to me, but an investment in the characters. This season so far is so off. I miss Connor, Cordy, and Lilah.

I'm hopeful with Lindsay returning - If that finally happening how many more of my wishes can happen? I've been just sticking it out but now I have more of an excitement about where things are going.

Edited by raramama, Jan 12, 2004 @ 3:22 PM.

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#42

Endeavour

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Posted Jan 15, 2004 @ 8:15 PM

From journeywoman's post in the 5-9 "Harm's Way" thread:

I have a HUGE need for closure and I don't think I will watch the entire season if the episodes continue along this line.  It's as though the same poisoned pens are writing the Angel characters that wrote the toxic S7 Buffy. Writers, here is a head's up, if you make your main characters irredeemably unsympathetic, uninteresting, and/or unrealistic, we the viewers will no longer care.

For now I'm going to continue watching, but I've been disappointed with this season. I usually watch Angel without doing anything else, but last night I gave up after 30 minutes and started working on the computer and watching Angel in the background. That's not a good sign.

I think part of the problem for me is what happened in S7 of Buffy. I'm trying to not let that interfere, but because of Buffy S7 I have little faith they'll not let ATS go down the tubes. I keep hoping it's a joke and things will change midseason (back to the old style credits as well), but I don't think so.
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#43

jerry

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Posted Jan 15, 2004 @ 8:23 PM

Word, endeavour. As I watch S5 episodes, I think well it's bad, but it's not yet, S7 BtVS bad. S5 stinks, but it hasn't tanked completely, and I'm so hoping Lindsey can fix this. But that's a lot to ask from one character.

Edited by jerry, Jan 15, 2004 @ 8:23 PM.

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#44

HexLover

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Posted Jan 15, 2004 @ 9:38 PM

I think that quality drops can be directly linked to Spike. When he stuck around on BTVS it withered and died and now Angel is following the same pattern.

I doubt that Lindsey will be able to do much to help, after all if Faith couldn't save BTVS what chance does Lindsey have?
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#45

Kalbear

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Posted Jan 15, 2004 @ 9:48 PM

HexLover, I'll try and do this without comparisons to Buffy or previous seasons or anything. It'll be fun!

Right now, the things I object to on Angel are only marginally focused on Spike. I am bothered that there is little to no real arc or overall theme of this season. I'm bothered that the MoG have very little to do in any given episode, especially relative to previous seasons. I am bothered by Cordy and Connor's absence. I have so far not liked the setting of W&H. I really don't like the fight choreographer, and am bugged by Mike Massa's leaving. I don't like that they've primarily spent their time inside, instead of doing a lot of different location shots; this makes the season feel confined and less active.

Only a few of these things have anything to do with Spike, and I'm fairly certain none of them have to do with the decline of quality on BtVS.
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#46

HexLover

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Posted Jan 15, 2004 @ 10:05 PM

Thanks for clearing up what you don't like. I'll try not to assume that it's Spike related from now on.






All bad things happen because of Spike!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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#47

jerry

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Posted Jan 15, 2004 @ 10:16 PM

I don't like that they've primarily spent their time inside, instead of doing a lot of different location shots; this makes the season feel confined and less active.

Word, Kalbear, 'confined and less active' is a nice S5 analysis. If this is a result of budget constraints, then TPTB really should trim some payroll (or something) because financially strapped AtS sucks.

Save money: no more camels
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#48

Endeavour

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Posted Jan 15, 2004 @ 11:34 PM

Kalbear, I agree with most of the things you dislike about the current season. They're the main reasons I'm unhappy with S5.

I have no problems with Spike being on AtS. Right now I'm not happy with the treatment of any of the characters. The reason I mentioned S7 Buffy was because it's made me lose faith in ME, and I'm not thrilled with JW having more involvement (if that's true) with AtS. I kept hoping they would pull it together on Buffy and it never happened. Right now I see AtS derailing in much the same way as S7 Buffy, and I just can't get my hopes up that it will get better.

Whether AtS is derailing or just a very different show now, I don't know. Either way, for me, it's not good. Although, I'm not ready to give up on it yet.
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#49

luvprue

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Posted Jan 16, 2004 @ 12:44 AM

I have a HUGE need for closure and I don't think I will watch the entire season if the episodes continue along this line.  It's as though the same poisoned pens are writing the Angel characters that wrote the toxic S7 Buffy. Writers, here is a head's up, if you make your main characters irredeemably unsympathetic, uninteresting, and/or unrealistic, we the viewers will no longer care.


Oh, I so agree with that statment. In season 3 and 4 they were like family, fighting evil together. we knew that week after week, AI will fight some evil demon out to do harm, or will have to go up against W&H. the lines was drawn there were no middle ground. ...but now they are W&H. so...now most of the evil they are fighting, are connected to them. Since the mindwipe, they are no longer a family. they are no longer as close as they once were. all they had did, and all that they had went through, especially in season 4 ..never happen, or rather not the way they remember it. I miss Cordy she is the only one who wasn't afraid to stand up to Angel. the show is clearly missing that. I miss Connor. I would love to find out what actually happen to him. but the biggest question is Why did angel trust W&H? what reason was given to the fang gang for Cordy being in a coma? I know they remember Jasmine, but do they remember how she came about?
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#50

Naxus

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Posted Jan 16, 2004 @ 12:49 AM

I agree that the drop in quality can be attributed to a large number of things. I wouldn't mind Spike at all if they were putting his character to good use and balancing his stuff with the rest of the cast's.

I have to say something about the episode titles that we're geting into now. I know it's not actually S5 'so far,' but it's not speculation so much as me complaining about available information. Basically, the virtually sitcom-esque episode titles bother me. The first part of the season did fine, with mostly dramatic titles. But now we've got two pun titles in a row ("Harm's Way" and next week's "Soul Purpose" - why couldn't they have just left it as "Deus Ex Machina"?).

Then there's "Damage," which is fine, but the 100th ep is called "You're Welcome." If I were more bitter, I might think that's actually a dig at CC. But I'll wait till I see the episode. And then "Why We Fight"? "Smile Time"? Ack.
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#51

roguetamlin

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Posted Jan 16, 2004 @ 8:09 AM

I see Spike as a symptom of what's wrong with AtS this season, but not the cause. Spike, when well writen, is an interesting character. So far the only well written episode I've seen so far this season is Lineage and even that had moments. There have been some well written Spike/Angel interactions (Hellbound, for instance), but in general, imho, this season seems more like it was written by some mediocre fanfic writers ME rounded up off of ff.net after realizing they were too hung over to write.

It is, however, still a thousand times better than the last two seasons of tVS, which seemed to have been written by Mr. Burns' typing monkey team. Each story stands on it's own, though there are recurring themes. The characters are acting at least in the ballpark of how you would expect them to act. DB still cares, AD is still acting his heart out. Even JM was never guilty of phoning in performances on either show, as detrimental to the scenery as that may have been.

So I persevere.
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#52

luvprue

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Posted Jan 16, 2004 @ 9:46 AM

Naxus wrote:Basically, the virtually sitcom-esque episode titles bother me. The first part of the season did fine, with mostly dramatic titles. But now we've got two pun titles in a row ("Harm's Way" and next week's "Soul Purpose" - why couldn't they have just left it as "Deus Ex Machina"?).

Then there's "Damage," which is fine, but the 100th ep is called "You're Welcome." If I were more bitter, I might think that's actually a dig at CC. But I'll wait till I see the episode. And then "Why We Fight"? "Smile Time"? Ack.



So far, when ever there has been an Angel episode, featuring "Harmony", an play on her name has been feature in the title, and as for the 100th episode being called "You're Welcome." , it more fitting ,if you consider that Buffy the vampire slayer 100th episode was called " the Gift".

but I hate the title "smile time", but maybe it will make sense , after viewing the episode. the way "Harm's way " did. - It was Harm way of doing things. everything was from her perspective.
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#53

Vandalisimo

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Posted Jan 16, 2004 @ 9:58 AM

as for the 100th episode being called "You're Welcome." , it more fitting ,if you consider that Buffy the vampire slayer 100th episode was called " the Gift".


Heh. That's kind of funny.
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#54

Naxus

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Posted Jan 16, 2004 @ 1:27 PM

That is interesting. Hmmm....

And I do actually like the title "Harm's Way," because that's at least slightly clever. But "Soul Purpose" I can do without. I agree about "Smile Time"; I don't like it, but maybe it'll work better after I see it.
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#55

Lila

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Posted Jan 16, 2004 @ 4:28 PM

Naxus -- Talk about future episodes in the speculation topic, please. That's why the topic name explicitly says "And non-spoilers about future episodes."

And guys, please talk about Buffy in the Buffy forum, or make comparisons in the "Angel vs. Buffy" topic. I'm seeing random comments about Buffy creeping back into a lot of the posts here.

luvprue --

In season 3 and 4 they were like family,

You might want to check out the last couple of pages of the "Angel vs. Buffy" topic because, wow, I disagree. Unless you mean a Jerry Springer kind of family.

I think the season would be fine if they had decent plots. But mostly they don't.
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#56

Ailiana

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Posted Jan 16, 2004 @ 7:49 PM

I think the season would be fine if they had decent plots. But mostly they don't.


Boy, Strega, you really want it all, don't you?
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#57

Zen

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Posted Jan 16, 2004 @ 8:50 PM

I'm bringing this quote over from the "Harm's Way" topic: (Thanks, Screamie.)

It's like the theme of the show is "vampire runs evil law office! Wackiness ensues!"


My main problem with this season is that it's... how do I say it? Too cute. They're trying to take this show in a more humorous direction, but it's taking away all the substance. There can be comedy with action and drama. In fact, I found last year's comedy better, because it's against a weirder background. Humor is more unexpected when all hell is breaking loose. Comedy doesn't work when it's predictable, and there have been too many times this year that I've said punchlines before they've been said on the show.

I guess this isn't the same show as it was last year. And that bums me out.

Oh, well. I've heard that Jake 2.0 is getting cancelled, so maybe Greenwalt will come back.

I think the season would be fine if they had decent plots. But mostly they don't.


They don't have any plots.

Edited by Zen, Jan 16, 2004 @ 8:52 PM.

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#58

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Posted Jan 16, 2004 @ 9:44 PM

I think the season would be fine if they had decent plots. But mostly they don't.


Since I'm demanding that way, can I supersize that with a request for some semi-consistent characterization?

Actually, I'm not sure if the uneven characterization is a symptom or a cause of one of the main problems I have with this season, which is that the shiny new standalone format leads to an utter lack of context for a lot of the episodes. There is often little or no reference to significant events that happened even one or two episodes previously; when these events have what would seem to be profound effects on characters (i.e. Wesley thinking he shot his own father in "Lineage"), and the characters act like nothing happened in the next episode, it drives me nuts. One of the strongest and most profound trends of S4, to me, was the way actions such as Wesley's kidnapping of Connor led to extended and complex consequences that lasted up to a year. I do think it's possible to add that context without making the episodes as serial as they were in S4.

I mentioned this in the episode thread, but I think it bears further examination as a season-long trend: the structure of the episodes seems very different this year. The main conflict doesn't seem to arise until at least halfway through the episode, or even later. The first half of the episode seems to be devoted to a long and somewhat picaresque setup of that action, and then there's big fighting in the last 10 minutes or so. It has led to some really strange pacing in some of the episodes. I thought it worked OK in "Harm's Way," and quite well in "The Cautionary Tale of Numero Cinco"--which was, after all, a literal tale in its narrative structure--but in general, I think it has replaced the previous episodic pattern of the last couple of years, which involved the intercutting of scenes that dealt with the arc and the scenes that dealt with the weekly story.

My grounds for optimism for this season, which I have so far found to be really disappointing, is that I thought the first half of S3 alternated between lame-o and moderately entertaining, if vapid, and it didn't really pick up for my until "Loyalty," which was episode 3:15. They're at least setting up an arc for this season; it could work, maybe.
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#59

Naxus

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Posted Jan 16, 2004 @ 9:52 PM

Oops. Sorry, Strega.

I do think there's the potential to do a lot of interesting stuff with things like Spike, the Shanshu, W&H, and the mindwipe. But I'd like not to wait much longer.

Aside from the lighter tone, the disappointingly boring setting, bad characerization, and the lack of actual, decent plots, one thing that bothers me is how much trouble they're having in balancing the cast. Out of the 9 episodes so far this season, I think only three have featured all the regulars throughout ("Conviction," "Unleashed," and "LotP").

That's one thing I don't like about character-centric episodes, is that by focusing on one character they tend to marginalize others. So far this season, I'd say there have been 5 character-centric episodes -- "Just Rewards," "Hellbound," "LotP," "Lineage," and "Harm's Way." Admittedly, all of those have varying level's of ensemble participation.

Part of the reason I enjoy "LotP" so much is that, despite being a Lorne-centric episode on the surface, it actually gives just about everyone their fair share of screentime (which seems even stranger to me since it's also one of only two episodes so far to feature all three major recurring characters [Harmony, Eve, Knox]). Although I guess the reason for that might be because the "plot" is relatively thin, and there isn't really anything going on except what the characters are doing.

I think "Numero Cinco" also did a fairly good job with the ensemble. Wes contributed. Gunn was there for most of it. Even Spike contributed. Lorne...at least got two scenes. Fred didn't have much to do, but most of the episodes have been fairly Fred-inclusive, so I didn't mind. I'll also throw in here that this episode, sadly, has my favorite fight scene so far this season -- the one between Angel, Wes, Gunn, Spike, and the Aztec demon. What can I say, I'm a sucker for group fights. Which I guess might reveal just how much I care about maintaining the ensemble feeling.

I can tolerate the back-and-forth for the opening eps, but now it's time to restore the balance. Oh, as for Wes...I don't think he's done too bad as far as screentime goes (except for the last two eps), it's just that he never really has anything to actually do. He has no storyline. The same goes for almost everyone else. Fred, despite being prominently featured, doesn't really have a storyline either. Spike seems to have a semi-storyline with the Shanshu. Gunn, so far, has a plot device. Lorne has, well, Lorne has nothing.

I know, I know, individual character storylines would detract from those brilliant A plots and confuse casual viewers. Okay, I'll be quiet now.

Edited by Naxus, Jan 16, 2004 @ 10:01 PM.

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#60

luvprue

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Posted Jan 16, 2004 @ 10:37 PM

My main problem with this season is that it's... how do I say it? Too cute


yeah, I felt that way too. especially after I watch life of the party and harm's way. but I think the season will get a little darker after episode 11. plus things always heats up around episode 15. Episode 15 has always been an turning point for the show.
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