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Regarding Wesley


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#601

AliasBatro

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Posted Oct 18, 2009 @ 5:25 PM

But Angel doesn't offer an explanation, only a plea for Wesley to trust him and his "executive decision"...a decision that was made completely without input from the other members of the AI group. Also, by the time of Origin, there was no group left that Wesley could confer with in the hope of gaining an objective viewpoint: Cordelia was dead, Fred was destroyed (and, interestingly, Illyria sided completely with Wesley, despite having no apparent reason to), Charles was in the holding dimension, Lorne was in and out of his cups, and Spike would have run against Angel purely on principle--not to mention that he accused Angel of making a devil's deal as soon as he took in Captain Forehead's vastly changed circumstances.

#602

TimeMonkey

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Posted Oct 18, 2009 @ 10:00 PM

Once you've messed with reality in secret, using an evil group dedicated to destroying the world you've pretty much forfeited the benefit of the doubt.

#603

macbeth

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Posted Jan 10, 2010 @ 8:10 PM

I was introduced to Angel during the 4th season. By this time - Wesley and Cordy had toned downed the characteristics that annoyed fans to no end.

I have since seen all 5 seasons and read some of Strega's great recaps - and I was amused by her intense Wesley hate. I wasn't sure where all the hate was coming from until I saw a couple of episodes of Wesely in S3 of Buffy.

All I can say is WOW. Props to Alexis for giving his all to creating a truly detestable, annoying, STFU character.

However, this becomes problematic when this character becomes a lead in the spin off series. I realize that there were problems with Glenn and he needed to be replaced - but by a character that could turn off viewers? Was Joss trying to sabatoge Angel by having the lead flanked by 2 of the more hated characters in the Buffy Universe??

As I watched Season 1 - you could see that steps were taken to de-geekify Wesley - especially after Faith tortured him. But still....

#604

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Posted Jan 11, 2010 @ 9:49 AM

Cordelia isn't one of the most hated, she's actually fairly well liked. Cordelia is just Buffy without being called to be a slayer and that's how it always was. Brnging both her and Wesley together on the spin off makes sense, they'd already spent S3 of Buffy as friendly so there was existing chemistry to build from.

Wesley was already on the right track by the end of S3 of Buffy. I don't know when they decided they wanted to keep using him (they might have been planning to bring him back even before they killed off Doyle) but it's probably the best move they could have made. It gave the Wesley character a chance to grow and develop instead of just being a complete waste.

#605

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Posted Jan 11, 2010 @ 10:49 AM

Once upon a time Joss, David Greeenwalt, Tim Minear and company seemed to relish developing characters at any chance they got, instead of picking one or two favourites and leaving the rest to languish in the background as they (mostly Whedon himself) did later on. I don't know why they brought Wesley back but it worked like a charm as (IMO) he has by far the best development of any character in the Buffyverse.

Cordelia seems to have been David Greenwalt's favourite, hence the move from BtVS to AtS, as contrived as it was.

And I am really not on board with calling Wesley detestable. So he disagreed with Buffy several times. Big deal. Buffy isn't all-knowing. The Watcher who screwed up the situation with Faith was primarily Giles, not Wesley.

I was introduced to Angel during the 4th season. By this time - Wesley and Cordy had toned downed the characteristics that annoyed fans to no end.


Isn't S4 Cordelia widely hated? I know she is possessed but still.

Edited by Mappo Runt, Jan 11, 2010 @ 10:51 AM.


#606

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Posted Jan 11, 2010 @ 8:59 PM

Wesley wasn't exactly detestable but he was disliked for very good reasons. It wasn't that he disagreed with Buffy but his general attitude. His arrogance, cowardess and obvious lack of field experience all painted a fairly unlikable picture. He still had his upsides, beig the only person smart enough to carry around a cross and holy water and using them to sav Cordelia from vampWillow, his desire to keep helping even after being fired, a genuine desire to fight evil.

Also, the Faith failure still falls on Wesley, Giles was fired by the time Faith had her downward spiral.

#607

Mappo Runt

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Posted Jan 11, 2010 @ 10:32 PM

Also, the Faith failure still falls on Wesley, Giles was fired by the time Faith had her downward spiral.


Technically this was the case but Faith seemed to think Giles was still the guy in charge. She went to him to frame Buffy for Finch's death, not to Wes. It was Giles who decided to believe Buffy and not Faith and he didn't even inform Faith that he was seeing though her ruse. Pretending to believe Faith was a really weird way for Giles to deal with the situation, IMO.

Anyway, Faith was already way down the slippery path when she tried to strangle Xander - and this was before Wesley had done anything to make the situation worse. As much as I love Giles, he is never shown to have with Faith the type of conversations through which he won his undisputed role as Buffy's mentor (like the one at the end of Lie to Me). This is probably because they hadn't decided yet whether to turn Faith into a villain or not for most of the first half of the season but this meta-reason is no excuse.

Edited by Mappo Runt, Jan 11, 2010 @ 10:36 PM.


#608

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Posted Jan 11, 2010 @ 10:39 PM

She went to Giles because Wesley had never won the group over. They all pretty much only let Wesley in on anything because he was their official Watcher. And when Faith went to Giles, he didn't accuse her or call her a liar he let her open up to him and accepted it. Giles wanted her to accept what she'd done and work out the problem, Wesley jumpedto the attck containment squad and ruined any progress the Scoobies had been making.

#609

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Posted Jan 11, 2010 @ 10:54 PM

Considering what happens next, I would say Faith could really have used a trip to England and a lot of therapy. But BtvS could never stomach to portray the Council as being right, so this was a no go. Anyway, the show tries to sell Wesley sending the special unit to arrest Faith as the defining event in her turn but I am just not buying.

Wesley jumpedto the attck containment squad and ruined any progress the Scoobies had been making.


But they weren't making much progress. Angel's speech was just him projecting his own issues onto Faith. And as Faith's later actions indicated she had an axe to grind with Buffy mostly, not Wesley and not the Council.

Edited by Mappo Runt, Jan 11, 2010 @ 10:55 PM.


#610

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Posted Jan 12, 2010 @ 3:48 AM

Isn't S4 Cordelia widely hated? I know she is possessed but still.


My intro to the Angel and Buffy Universe is through Season 4 of Angel - which I really liked. CC had a tough role that season. She is the villain but can't act as one so as to keep the audience in the dark. Cordy in season 4 reminded me of Kelli Williams from the practice. The safe, plain heroine - who in CC's case ends up being used by evil forces. When I saw S1 Cordy I was completely shocked. I was like Wow she is a hot babe and immature. She had as large a transformation as Wesley did. CC is good - but Alexis is a really gifted actor.

I enjoyed Wesley in Angel. And I think he had one of the greatest character development storylines in television. It was masterfully done. The problem is - initially it was huge risk to hire him for the show. You can't make it to S4 if viewers aren't watching. He was guns blazing obnoxious in Buffy. If he wasn't saying something obnoxious then he was doing something stupid. Wesley gave the show nerdy evil.

The problem is to transform a character whose only note is to be obnoxious to to be 1 of only 3 main players in a network show. He has to endear himself to the audience and I don't think I would have watched Angel if I had been introduced to him in Buffy and then saw he was a lead in Angel. That would have been a no go for me.

They started to change him immediately in Angel, he was less obnoxious. And with the white suits and the prat falls they were trying to give him a Jerry Lewis vibe - which again is not endearing - but they were trying.

#611

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Posted Jan 12, 2010 @ 4:19 PM

I have to disagree with you, macbeth. I was watching AtS live in season 1. And I remember being all WTF when Wesley was introduced, as were a lot of viewers I knew. But, by the end of the first episode for me, he was already growing on me and many others. In fact, I can't think of a single person who stopped watching the show because of any Wesley dislike. And I remember a lot of reviewers saying, by the end of that season, that while they were iffy on Wesley at first, they felt he'd quickly proven to be a nice addition to the show. And a lot of viewers I knew, even the ones who really liked Doyle, had quickly come around to liking Wesley.

As obnoxious as many found Wesley to be over on BtVS, I think the writers did an outstanding job of making him much more likable surprisingly fast. In fact, by the end of his first episode on AtS, I was pretty much over any left-over animosity from his BtVS days.

And I found the white suits and clumsiness pretty adorable.

His arrogance, cowardess and obvious lack of field experience all painted a fairly unlikable picture.


I never thought Wesley was a coward. He was a guy filled with book learning, who had had it drilled into his head that the COW's way was always the right way (and, since he was going by their book, that meant his way was the right way), and was in no way prepared to be working in the field. But a coward? Never. If anything, he was the kind of guy who would rush into a fight...and promptly get his ass kicked. But being an arrogant guy and a sucky fighter isn't the same as being a coward.

Edited by Bitterswete, Jan 12, 2010 @ 6:45 PM.


#612

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Posted Jan 13, 2010 @ 7:17 PM

In his very first episode he quickly caved to a demon's demands and sold out Angel in the process, that makes him a coward.

Unlike a lot of characters Wesley was allowed to grow and overcome his flaws, even when he was still back on BTVS so his cowardess didn't last for long but it's still not a good first impression to make.

Wesley had pretty much proved he had potential as a likable character by the end of BTVS S3, saving Cordelia from vampWillow, trying to get help for poisoned Angel, sticking around to help fight the Mayor even after being fired, the man had earned his shot.

But they weren't making much progress. Angel's speech was just him projecting his own issues onto Faith. And as Faith's later actions indicated she had an axe to grind with Buffy mostly, not Wesley and not the Council.


While it's true that's what he was doing it also seemed to be working to an extent.

And Faith definitely held a grudge with Wesley, as her actions in Five By Five show. Nabbing Cordelia instead of Wesley would have whipped Angel into a bigger vengence rage but she chose Wesley, tortured him for hours and pretty much flat out says she is not pleased with how she was treated by him. Note she seems to still maintain a relatively posiive outlook on Giles and even Angel, her wrath is always saved for Buffy and Wesley.

Edited by TimeMonkey, Jan 13, 2010 @ 7:22 PM.


#613

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Posted Jan 13, 2010 @ 8:02 PM

And Faith definitely held a grudge with Wesley, as her actions in Five By Five show. Nabbing Cordelia instead of Wesley would have whipped Angel into a bigger vengence rage but she chose Wesley, tortured him for hours and pretty much flat out says she is not pleased with how she was treated by him.


If Faith had a real axe to grind with Wesley, he would have been dead in S3 of BtVS. By the time Five by Five came along she was pretty much a psycho who wasn't above attacking random people, let alone people who might in whatever way have gotten in her way before. I'd rather believe that she picked Wesley as the man to torture mostly because she was completely out of control at that point, not because he was that high on her list of targets or anything. But then again I barely remember how exactly events unfolded in Five by Five, so I could be wrong.

They started to change him immediately in Angel, he was less obnoxious. And with the white suits and the prat falls they were trying to give him a Jerry Lewis vibe - which again is not endearing - but they were trying.


He was already often clumsy comic relief while he was in BtVS, so it's not as if this a new strategy to endear the viewers to him once he switched shows.

He was a guy filled with book learning, who had had it drilled into his head that the COW's way was always the right way (and, since he was going by their book, that meant his way was the right way), and was in no way prepared to be working in the field.


I think this is what made Wesley relatable at first and not just comic relief and obnoxious. He isn't dumb or mean or anything but he is lacking a real world experience. I vastly prefer him to early Cordelia who just preyed on the weak at Sunnydale High to gain the approval of her empty-headed friends, whom she didn't even like.

#614

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Posted Jan 14, 2010 @ 12:14 AM

Faith was not really much of a deliberate murderer back in S3. She doesn't purposely kill anyone until about a day or two (been a while since I watched the episode so th deails are a bit fuzzy) before Buffy puts her into the coma. Faith was still pulling her crazy villain pants on back when the opportunity was presenting itself. Faith was on a very specific path fo violence when she runs into Wesley, she has a goal and has stopped the random fighting. She could have grabbed Wesley and Cordelia, or grabbed Wesley and killed Cordelia, or killed them both right there, but she doesn't. She didn't even have to run off after the encounter in Cordelia's apartment, she could have done what she does right there, it's the first place Angel went looking. Instead she makes sure she gets some quality time with Wes first.

#615

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Posted Mar 2, 2010 @ 3:06 AM

that box of memories (damn I forget the name)


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#616

Author By Night

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Posted May 18, 2010 @ 6:23 PM

I met Wesley in Angel before we met him in Buffy, incidentally, and I didn't mind him so much. In the third season of Buffy, he did do things that deeply disappointed me (almost selling out Angel, having Faith arrested), but he grew on me when I re-watched AtS 1. (Don't ask why I saw it before seeing the third season of Buffy. I think I just got curious as to what Angel was like in his own show.)

Still, while I didn't think his betrayal came out of nowhere (given his actions in Buffy season three)... it was still so horrifying and heartbreaking. And I'm not sure I understand why he went to Holtz of all people. Seriously, Wesley? Holtz?

I think part of Wesley's problem is that he's still a Watcher, and as a Watcher, he's "equipped" to work alone. Giles does this in his own way as well, leaving the Scoobies in season six and trying to leave them long before that. In season three of Buffy, Faith (after going evil) tells Buffy she "tried playing the good girl game" - I wonder if the same was true for Wesley.

Edited by Author By Night, May 22, 2010 @ 7:38 AM.


#617

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Posted May 19, 2010 @ 9:47 AM

I think Wesley's problem was that he was so willing be the guy that could make the hard decisions and do the difficult solution that he would automatically jump to the worst case scenario solution without looking at all the options to see if there's a better, less awful choice: He suggests sacrificing Willow to defeat the Mayor; he turns Faith in; he kidnaps Connor.

#618

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Posted Jun 7, 2010 @ 5:50 PM

I think Wesley's problem was that he was so willing be the guy that could make the hard decisions and do the difficult solution that he would automatically jump to the worst case scenario solution without looking at all the options to see if there's a better, less awful choice


Exactly. I wonder if that's something his father drilled into him. (And probably the whole Watcher organization.) True strength means making the tough choices. Only Wesley got to a point where he couldn't see anything but the tough choices. If a solution wouldn't require him to make some huge sacrifice, or wouldn't cause him all sorts of emotional pain, he wouldn't see it.

Edited by Bitterswete, Jun 7, 2010 @ 5:50 PM.


#619

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Posted Jul 12, 2010 @ 2:46 PM

Wesley was my favorite character on Angel. I liked that Wesley was neither born to command like Angel nor a devoted lieutenant like Gunn or Cordelia. He was always a little apart; he relied on his own judgment rather than following Angel. Although his initial entrance as a "rogue demon hunter" was a joke, Wesley was a "rogue" at heart. He was neither a natural leader nor a born follower; he took his own independent path and made his own decisions.

#620

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Posted Aug 22, 2011 @ 11:12 PM

Wesley was my favorite character on Angel. I liked that Wesley was neither born to command like Angel nor a devoted lieutenant like Gunn or Cordelia. He was always a little apart; he relied on his own judgment rather than following Angel. Although his initial entrance as a "rogue demon hunter" was a joke, Wesley was a "rogue" at heart. He was neither a natural leader nor a born follower; he took his own independent path and made his own decisions.


I always loved Wesley too. He had a little flavor of his own, and he was layered. He could be the dork or the dark. For me, he was the best written character ever for this show.