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No Shirt, No Shoes, No Sunlight: The Spike Thread


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#31

Endeavour

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Posted Jan 20, 2004 @ 6:08 PM

Do we know if Spike ever finds out that Buffy was Faith that time? And if he did, when did he?

I'm pretty sure in S7 Spike did mention that he knew about it when he was talking to Faith in the basement. I don't remember if they ever said when or how he found out.

#32

Pulpbomb

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Posted Jan 20, 2004 @ 6:19 PM

Yeah, Faith and Spike talk about it but they never say how he knew. Buffy must have mentioned it in between all the boinking.

#33

HexLover

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Posted Jan 20, 2004 @ 6:25 PM

I bet Giles or Xander told him. He did live with both of them and therefore had a lot of contect with them. His encounter with Fuffy probably came up and they would have filled him in with some vage details so that he wouldn't get the wrong idea. Unfortunatly this combined with Willow's "let my will be done" spell put Buffy into Spike's brain in a sexy way.

#34

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Posted Jan 20, 2004 @ 6:45 PM

Spike actually says in his conversation with Faith that Buffy told him though she didn't say who else was involved.

#35

HexLover

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Posted Jan 20, 2004 @ 6:49 PM

Spike actually says in his conversation with Faith that Buffy told him though she didn't say who else was involved.


True, but he also said that he reformed long before Faith so we probably shouldn't put too much faith(hee) in what Spike says.

#36

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Posted Jan 20, 2004 @ 6:58 PM

This has been bantering about my brain while I've been sick in bed, so it may just be the cold meds talking but... I blame Faith for Spike falling for Buffy.


Spike didn't show any romantic or sexual interest in Buffy after his encounter with Faith in Buffy. In fact he doesn't start showing interest in Buffy until his wet dream in Season 5 (and the Buffy he dreams about doesn't seem very Faith-like to me). Of course the story seems to indicate (thanks to the Dru flashback/retcon) that Spike had always been in love with Buffy on a subconscious level. So I don't think any of it can be blamed on Faith.

#37

HexLover

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Posted Jan 20, 2004 @ 7:07 PM

If that flashback is correct then does that mean that we have to blame Drusilla for Spuffy, she sent Spike away. I don't think I could handle that because then I would have to hate Drusilla and I just can't live in a world where I have to hate Drusilla!

#38

a2zmom

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Posted Jan 20, 2004 @ 7:46 PM

I suspect that Spike fell (initially) in lust with Buffy due to several factors. First the chip. As several have pointed out, this forced him into a relationship he normally would have avoided. Two, Spike is obsessed with slayers in general. This one he couldn't kill, so he channeled his desires along another path. Three, I'm sure the Faith speech certainly helped fuel the fantasy.

#39

HexLover

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Posted Jan 20, 2004 @ 8:39 PM

" I figured the only thing better than killing a Slayer would be......"

#40

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Posted Mar 4, 2004 @ 7:26 PM

I think I may have figured out why watching Spike's character development is so enjoyable for some viewers, namely me. Those of you who have children or work with young children will probably understand more readily what I am about to describe. Watching children develop from birth to young childhood is liking driving a Ferrari and going from 0 mph to 120 mph in 4.8 seconds. It is a rush. It leaves you somewhat in awe. And it is completely fraught with head smacking against a brick wall frustration. Basically, in the span of five years (if you count this year of AtS) Spike has gone from a baby (as represented by a vampire's single-minded focus on eating) to a pre-toddler whose guardian completely controls their world (represented by the chip) to a toddler learning that their actions impact how others play with them (Spike protecting Dawn because Buffy might reward him favorably) to a slightly older toddler who will do something because they love someone but not necessarily be motivated to do it because it is the right thing to do (Spike hiding Dawn's identity as the key.) And these are just S5 examples. The real growth, the teen morality growth if you will has occured in S5 on AtS. Very cool IMO.

#41

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Posted Mar 5, 2004 @ 1:50 AM

The real growth, the teen morality growth if you will has occured in S5 on AtS.

That would explain why I found him so frustrating. I can't deal with little kids, but I find teens fascinating and a lot of fun to watch develop.

#42

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Posted Mar 6, 2004 @ 1:15 AM

I think you're on to something there, journeywoman. In contrast to what Dave said: I'm intrigued by little kids, and pretty much all kids up to early/mid-teenagerdom, and I thought Spike was a great character from when I first saw him. Come to think of it, after just seeing "School Hard" for the first time (so, admittedly a bit biased by already knowing a lot about Spike) I said basically the same thing in my head about Spike that I often say about my toddler cousin: "He's an [evil vampire/tiny child] but he has a personality of his own and everything! (Now let's see where that goes...)"

Very interesting theory.

#43

jyd76

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Posted Mar 6, 2004 @ 2:48 AM

I liked Spike, up till Season 5. He was one of my favorite characters. Always funny, and given some of the best lines. Loved how he got the Scoobs to PAY him for help. Good Times.

Post S4 though. God, I couldn't be rid of him fast enough for several reasons:
1) Stole from Xander's screen time.
2) Started the whole Buffy the Vampire Layer thing all over again.
3) Moved from funny and different vamp (Was more interested in the world having a status quo than world domination or destruction) to creepy and sick vamp, but was yet still whitewashed as a good guy.

I would have loved him post s5 if he wasn't ruined by Marti, the show killer.

#44

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Posted Mar 29, 2004 @ 5:25 PM

Moved over from the Season Two thread, since it was getting kinda Spiketacular.

I don't think it's just a simple case of being stupid and shortsighted, especially b/c IMO S2 Spike wasn't characterized very strongly that way. In fact, in S2 I'd say that Spike generally has the most practical, sensible, and even long-range view of the three evil vamps. He manages to pull off quite a few things under Buffy's nose all season, and later under Angel's, often through long-ranged planning.


And yet he's also the vampire who couldn't keep it in his pants long enough to wait for the weekend Feast of St Vigeous, and when criticized about it killed the guy he had claimed he was going to stay out of the way of. In his very first line of the show, he contradicts himself and changes his mind about something. To me, he's always been the poster-child for attention deficit, and this didn't really change because he didn't bother to leap out of the wheelchair before he was healed and get himself humiliated once again by a very much not-crippled Angelus.

About the only thing he's been consistent about is his inconsistency. He's a spaz, and he'll say one thing, and do the exact opposite a split-second later, and never once think of himself as being inconsistent or hypocritical or ironic, much in the manner of a child who will scold his parents for being 'silly.'

It's the same sort of thing that later led to his ensoulment. He honestly seems unaware (or at least unapologetic) about this tendency, and, IMO, honestly believed himself when he later told Buffy that 'I don't hurt you.' After the bathroom assault, he suddenly seems to wake up and realize that he couldn't be the sort of man he'd always thought he was, that he was lying not just to her, but to himself as well.

I think that this revelation rocked his world-view. He couldn't be who he thought he already was, he couldn't say anything about himself, or promise anything, and be correct or truthful, and the trials in Africa shows that he was willing to die (and even in the gaining of a soul, he was essentially destroying the 'monster' he was, in hopes of becoming a man at all) to be *able* to change.

#45

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Posted Mar 29, 2004 @ 5:31 PM

While I'm open to journeywoman's theory that I don't like watching Spike's journey because I don't have (or for that matter particularly like) kids, I can honestly say that I've never been sitting around one of my friend's houses, watching their kids, and shouted "Just die already!' I can't say the same for Spike.

#46

Teenes

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Posted Mar 29, 2004 @ 5:52 PM

I said it wasn't a simple case of Spike being stupid and shortsighted. I didn't say he wasn't impulsive or impatient. He is undoubtedly both. But I don't think impulsiveness and intelligence are mutually exclusive. And in Spike's early evil stages, his seemingly irrational "impulsiveness" often could also be seen as clever exercises in doing the unexpected and therefore taking people unawares. In "School Hard" he makes big noise about killing Buffy on Saturday, getting them all focused on the Feast of St. Vigeous and worrying about Saturday night, and then takes them completely by surprise and off guard by crashing into the school two days early. And honestly, the tactic came close to winning. (I actually tend to think that Spike ran away too easily to make sense at the end of "School Hard" and "Halloween" for a vamp of his reputation or personality. Especially given how they presented his later Slayer killings as one-on-one battles and his personality as a "fists and fangs" in it for the "death, glory, and sod all else." Smart to regroup, I suppose, but odd.). In "In the Dark" on AtS, he claims he got bored with his plan and just attacked Angel, but somehow had a trap perfectly in place for whenever Angel decided to come and find him - he basically lured Angel onto his own ground. In both cases, he really could have just been being inconsistent and impulsive, but in both cases it largely worked for him.

I dunno, I don't honestly think Spike thought he needed to wait for the Feast of St. Vigeous. That was the kind of ritualistic prophetic mumbo-jumbo the Master dealt in. Spike had faced and killed two Slayers without the help of some mystical night of vampire strength. And I always got the impression that he had the utmost contempt for the Anointed One, only playing along with him until he could feel out the situation. Not that he intended to just go along with the Anointed One but changed his mind later.

I totally agree that Spike is impulsive and could be contradictory. That he's more instinct/gut-driven than thought/head-driven. And I agree that what drove him to his ensoulment was the realization that he couldn't be who he thought he was or wanted to be.

But, my original argument was mainly about the idea that Spike put together the Judge to end the world, in apparent contradiction to his later claims in "Becoming" about not wanting the world to end, b/c he was stupid and shortsighted. I just got sidetracked into thinking about how in S2, Spike was almost the "voice of reason" among the three vamps, the one who told Angel just to kill her already, that it was stupid to piss off the Slayer by hurting her friends (IMO Angel failed to realize the difference between doing this to a helpless girl like Drusilla and a Slayer like Buffy), etc. Who pointed out the flaws in Angel's plans, told Drusilla not to kill Dalton yet b/c he was the only minion they had with "half a brain", who dispatched the Order of Taraka to keep Buffy occupied (or better yet, kill her), so that she wouldn't interfere with his plans to restore Drusilla...

I dunno. I just disagree, I guess, with the current trend of characterization that has Spike as a pretty dumb, purely gut-driven guy. Jeff Bell even describes him in a recent interview as not the brightest bulb but with an incredible instinct and heart. And while I don't disagree that Spike's instincts are a big part of him, I just think that the character didn't start off as a purely dumb guy.

And EONdc, I think it's a lot easier mentally to sit around wishing death on a fictional character than on real people =). At least, I certainly hope so!

Edited by Teenes, Mar 29, 2004 @ 5:53 PM.


#47

Ailiana

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Posted Mar 29, 2004 @ 6:22 PM

Not unexpectedly, I totally agree with Teenes, especially on the point that impulsiveness and intelligence in Spike aren't mutually exclusive. In fact, as I think several of Teenes' examples demonstrate, Spike frequently seemed to see opportunities (intelligence) that others didn't, and had the impusiveness/chutzpah to leap immediately to take advantage of them. This worked pretty well for him, I think--particularly against Slayers. He seized an unexpected moment of distraction against both Chinese Slayer and Nikki, and used it to claim victory. I also think that's part of what attracted him to Buffy, from the very beginning. She's also good at seizing whatever comes to hand. The look on his face as he watches her stake the vamp with the pumpkin sign on the video he made in Halloween says a lot to me--here's a girl that he respects in large part because she is very like him. And I think that carries through his entire relationship with Buffy. He understands at least part of her, because it is like at least part of him.

But, then, that's where his impulsiveness can outrace his intelligence (which I think happens several times). He impulsively leaps to conclusions (Buffy is the same as me; getting a soul will fix everything) and by the time his brain catches up, he's hurtling down the chosen road too fast to stop. But I think he does eventually get there. He's not an "intellectual" (certianly not the way Angel was portrayed as being), but that doesn't mean he's dumb either.

#48

Set

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Posted Mar 29, 2004 @ 6:56 PM

I just got sidetracked into thinking about how in S2, Spike was almost the "voice of reason" among the three vamps, the one who told Angel just to kill her already, that it was stupid to piss off the Slayer by hurting her friends (IMO Angel failed to realize the difference between doing this to a helpless girl like Drusilla and a Slayer like Buffy), etc.


And yet when he has chances to do stuff like this, he doesn't take his own advice. He is very critical of anyone *elses* plans, but when his own go balls-up, he seems to ignore the fact that he's made the exact same missteps.

I am reminded of the whole ressurection thing. He helps Dawn when she's trying to ressurect Joyce, but when the gang ressurects Buffy *without him* he's all indignant and the voice of 'magic always has consequences' (this from the same person who was going to use a love-spell to get Drusilla back). He's all kinds of hypocrite in that example, and I don't think it was intentionally hypocrisy, I think he's just not very self-aware (to staggering degrees).

He has a similar reaction in Season 7, when Buffy gives her first 'everybody sucks but me' speech, he's among the audience and gets targetted. So when people disagree with her, he has no criticism. When he *isn't* there later and she and her friends have a big disagreement, they're all traitors and he's all indignant, again. It's not about whether Buffy was right or wrong, since he wasn't there and *has no idea what was said,* nor does he particularly care, since it's all about Spike not being there, so it must have been wrong.

I could probably give an example from just about every season (save the first, obviously) of Spike saying one thing and then doing the opposite, or claiming that everyone else is stupid or wrong about something, and then doing it himself and when called on it loudly proclaiming, 'Well, what did you expect! I'm EVIL!'

To me the whole point of Seeing Red is that he couldn't count on himself, couldn't trust himself, couldn't say anything or promise anything or be any sort of man at all, and it was only this last event that actually showed this to him. He never seemed aware of his own inconsistency, his own inability to be a man of any sort, let alone a good man who kept his word. He seemed as shocked by it as Buffy, and to me his decision to actually finally take steps to become a person who could make a choice, or keep a promise, is a huge turning point.

Because of the chip, he couldn't be a demon, and because of the chip, he finally had to stop partying long enough to *notice* that he wasn't capable of being a man. He could have wished for the chip out, but he chose to be a man. That's kinda huge, as decisions go. The only 'self' he ever really knew, ever really loved or respected or cared about, his Big Bad vampire Spike persona, he chose to destroy, to risk turning back into the pathetic loser William that he seemed to hold in contempt.

He chose the harder path. He knew he was a success as a vampire, and that he could do that and be powerful and infamous again. He knew he'd failed miserably at being any sort of man in life, and that's the path he chose. To punish himself? To have a second chance to get it right as a man, instead of as a monster? Out of 'love,' assuming he ever really, as man or demon, had the slightest inkling what that meant?

Could just have been pride. He has always seemed extremely prideful to me, and it might just be that being a man 'beat' him and he had this being a monster thing down cold, so he chose the harder fight out of the same perverse instinct that made him fall in love with inaccessible women (even in life) or pick fights with professional killers of his kind. He might have chosen to try the soul route simply to prove that he could do it, that he could beat this too, and if he made Angel look like a simpering angst-wreck in the process, so much the better.

#49

Teenes

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Posted Mar 29, 2004 @ 7:24 PM

Oh ITA that Spike lacked self-awareness. The tendency to avoid introspection has a great deal to do with that, the tendency to try to find a new identity when the old doesn't fit, rather than trying to fix the old, the inability to follow his own advice to others..it's all a part of that. It's why I think he can be extremely perceptive or intuitive when it comes to other people (ie, the truthteller) and situations that he has no personal investment in, but can completely screw it up when it comes to himself and situations/people he *is* emotionally invested in.

But, once again, I think that has a lot more to do with maturity and personality than actual intelligence. Spike is no intellectual. But he's no moron either, IMO. Of course, this is the argument I've been making in response to something DaBigDave said in the s2 thread, and not really what you've been saying, Set. You seem to be making an argument more about Spike's inconsistency than his intelligence.

Oh and about GID vs "Touched", while you may be onto something in general about Spike's perception of right and wrong being somewhat contingent on his participation, especially pre-soul, in "Touched", there was sort of the added element of Buffy getting kicked out of the house. Spike doesn't know what happened, but he does know that the others were trying to tell him that she voluntarily decided to "take a break" ("in the middle of an apocalypse") which was obviously patently untrue. It's not a very good way for them to make the case that they were in the right. In GID he obviously disagreed with Buffy and didn't have any issue with the criticisms people were making of her, but all that happened there was verbal sparring. In "Touched" he returns to find Buffy essentially ousted and her friends trying to lie to him about it. I think that biases the situation somewhat to begin with. While I think that there's a chance that he would have gladly participated in Buffy's resurrection if he had been told about it (though there's a chance he wouldn't have as well, IMO), I'm not as sure he would have been onboard with Buffy leaving even if he'd been there in "Empty Places."

Edited by Teenes, Mar 29, 2004 @ 7:25 PM.


#50

DaBigDave

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Posted Mar 29, 2004 @ 7:34 PM

here's a girl that he respects in large part because she is very like him. And I think that carries through his entire relationship with Buffy. He understands at least part of her, because it is like at least part of him.

But, then, that's where his impulsiveness can outrace his intelligence (which I think happens several times). He impulsively leaps to conclusions (Buffy is the same as me

I think the second is particularly instructive, as applied to Spike for much of his run.

He perceives himself and Buffy sharing a commonality, and then projects himself onto her. Once he sees her as like him, believes himself to understand a part of her - he then presumes that he knows or understands all and doesn't really question his own credibility until something so radical occurs that he must release his delusions. Largely, this (and Set's comments speak to a certain immaturity and mental lassitude on his part, which he's been slowly growing past.

As to Spike's sponsorship of the judge - I'll stand by my statement - any Vampire looking to set the judge loose without any consistent plan on how to use and control would have to be either insane or stupid. At least, as pertains to that case.

#51

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Posted Mar 29, 2004 @ 7:46 PM

As to Spike's sponsorship of the judge - I'll stand by my statement - any Vampire looking to set the judge loose without any consistent plan on how to use and control would have to be either insane or stupid. At least, as pertains to that case.


Don't like my bitterness and lack of caring if the world ends b/c of his being in a wheelchair explanation, eh? Though I suppose that could be a brand of insanity, depending on how you define it. Ah well, didn't think I'd be able to convince you anyway.

Oh and forgot to mention, I agree with Ailiana (and Dave's agreement with Ailiana ;)) about Spike's seeing himself in Buffy and projecting a full set of beliefs onto her when he only has part of the picture, but thinking he has the whole picture. Especially pre-soul. And that he's been slowing growing past this.

#52

DaBigDave

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Posted Mar 29, 2004 @ 8:42 PM

Don't like my bitterness and lack of caring if the world ends b/c of his being in a wheelchair explanation, eh?

Not really. He seems a little frustrated, but prior to Angelus' return and Dru's loss of interest in him - not nearly so frustrated as that...

#53

Set

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Posted Mar 30, 2004 @ 12:25 AM

Buffy essentially ousted and her friends trying to lie to him about it.


What lie? She said she couldn't stay around and watch this, Dawn said fine, then don't.

Not much of a lie (at all), since Buffy did choose to leave rather than allow Faith to take this from her as well, just as she felt that Faith had taken everything, her friendship with Angel, her relationship with Riley, her Slayer-dom, bantering with her friends, getting along with her mom, even usurping her body.

Even if it *had* been a bald-faced lie, it's not like Spike would have known one way or another. He made his decision as he so often does, in complete absence of any facts.

Note Buffy's jealous reaction when she saw Spike and Faith sitting on the bed together. She's can't seem to stand of how Faith can be a Slayer and *not* be utterly miserable, joking about being 'a hot chick with super-powers.' Even when she's gone all season giving the impression that she doesn't want Spike 'that way,' she becomes Anya-level-territorial when Faith seems to be getting along with him and starts pissing all over the place establishing her claim.

In his credit, Spike seemed to find the lady's protesting to be amusing in that scene. Although it is typical of the show's consistency that season that when Spike needs to lounge around shirtless with Faith, his 'cot' is suddenly queen-sized and they can stretch out comfortably, and when Anya and Xander are on it, it is once more cot-sized and can barely accomodate NB's bicep... :)

Edited by Set, Mar 30, 2004 @ 12:25 AM.


#54

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Posted Mar 30, 2004 @ 1:25 PM

Backtrack...rewind..play discussion again... on further reflection, I'm going to move this to the S7 topic, b/c most of my points weren't Spike-related. Not that I really want to get back into a S7 discussion =).

As for the other, when Faith and Spike are lounging on the cot, they're not sitting on it the long way (ie, the orientation in which you'd be if you're lying down), they're sitting up against the wall with their legs across the width of the bed. Sure, there's plenty of room that way to lounge. A twin bed is as long as a king bed is wide, isn't it? Anya and Xander were lying on the cot lengthwise so they only had the twin width to squeeze into. I suppose Anya and Xander could have tried lying the other way but their legs/most of their lower bodies would have been hanging off the bed.

Edited by Teenes, Mar 30, 2004 @ 2:27 PM.


#55

petzipellepingo

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Posted Mar 30, 2004 @ 3:31 PM

Here's a little something I found today that Spike fans might enjoy looking at. All credit goes to sueworld2003 who is beyond talented. Today is Spike Appreciation Day afterall.

Edited by petzipellepingo, Mar 30, 2004 @ 3:45 PM.


#56

sissykay

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Posted Mar 30, 2004 @ 10:30 PM

In both cases, he really could have just been being inconsistent and impulsive, but in both cases it largely worked for him.

Some call this “dumb luck”. I see Spike as impulsive and impatient, one who is ruled by his passions but I also see him as intelligent. When he is not intimately involved I think he can be very cunning and calculating.

I am reminded of the whole ressurection thing. He helps Dawn when she's trying to ressurect Joyce, but when the gang ressurects Buffy *without him* he's all indignant and the voice of 'magic always has consequences' (this from the same person who was going to use a love-spell to get Drusilla back). He's all kinds of hypocrite in that example, and I don't think it was intentionally hypocrisy, I think he's just not very self-aware (to staggering degrees).

Set’s examples of hypocrisy IMO can be seen as examples of Spike being ruled by passion as well.
I like this about him and find him interesting because he is passionate.

I view Spike as a vampire with a destiny. I view all that has happened to him as being ordered. He may be the souled vampire prophecy speaks of.

Spike seemed to find the lady's protesting to be amusing in that scene.

I thought Spike looked like a kid with his hand in the cookie jar when Buffy walked in on him and Faith.

#57

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Posted Mar 30, 2004 @ 10:50 PM

Setís examples of hypocrisy IMO can be seen as examples of Spike being ruled by passion as well.  I like this about him and find him interesting because he is passionate.

But still a hypocrite, largely because he neither acknowledges or recognizes the contradictions, preferring an unthinking righteous certitude which only rarely abated.

#58

ReaderNotViewer

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Posted Mar 31, 2004 @ 5:31 AM

I view Spike as a vampire with a destiny.


This made me really think, Sissykay, as I always viewed Spike as a vampire without a destiny, in opposition to Angel, the PTB's special project.
I never considered before that the facts can support your opinion quite well too. What I am afraid of, we'll never really know.

Edited by ReaderNotViewer, Mar 31, 2004 @ 10:01 AM.


#59

Evergreen

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Posted Apr 4, 2004 @ 10:40 AM

Sorry if I should do my own research and not ask this question, but I'm soooo lazy.
I've only seen the 1st Season of Buffy and a few later episodes (all centered around the Buffy/Spike relationship), and I know how the whole series ends.

I'm just wondering, what is the deal with Spike being on Angel, the show? How did they explain that? Does Spike ever refer to Buffy on the show or do they just avoid the topic of Buffy completely? All I need is like a really quick answer, don't want to be an excessive burden.

#60

Victoria M.

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Posted Apr 4, 2004 @ 2:06 PM

Spike does refer to Buffy on Angel, in fact it's a major point of contention between him and Angel. Mileage varies on this issue but personally I think the writers strike a pretty good balance between acknowledging the importance of Buffy to both characters and not making too much out of it because there's no hope of Buffy actually appearing on the show.