1297 replies to this topic

[elle75au]

I have been watching Season Six and for the most part Joey has been very irritating and spineless. She just lets Audrey say whatever to Eddie (who she's supposed to LOVE) and never gets angry on his behalf....not that I really like the Eddie character but its still pretty horrible of Joey to let her friend talk to her boyfriend like that.

I thought she was being redeemed to the Joey of old when she got trapped with Pacey in KMart and I started getting hopeful - and then she dumps him for Eddie????

My only thought is that the writers knew what they wanted for series end but had to fill some episodes and Oliver Hudson had a contract for a certain amount of episodes....or maybe they didn't care to lift their heads from their crack-pipes to give us a decent last series????

Edited by elle75au, Jan 8, 2004 @ 10:59 PM.

[Spider Girl]

the writers knew what they wanted for series end but had to fill some episodes and Oliver Hudson had a contract for a certain amount of episodes

I believe this was part of it. Oliver was brought back after his first run, so they did have to work him back into (and out of) the storyline. As for whether the writers knew how they wanted to end the series, well...a PJ reunion and breakup was key no matter which way they went. It was unfinished business that they needed to "finish".

maybe they didn't care to lift their heads from their crack-pipes to give us a decent last series????

Also possible. See Season 5.

[elle75au]

I'm looking forward to seeing the finale (showing on Oz tv for the first time this week) and even though I know most of what's going to happen, think it will be good to watch and see everything concluded.

It was a shame they went downhill for series 5 & 6, esp since the show rocked for the other seasons and I always thought Joey was a good character.

[glitter5579]

It's not that I hate Joey, I just hate the IT.

[elle75au]

Yeh, the IT was a little ridiculous. I mean, it would have been a bit more realistic if perhaps one or two people found her average/annoying rather than all living souls being drawn in by the IT.

[Pop Culture Freak]

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I always sympathized with Joey. Even when the IT was in full takeover mode, I never found her that annoying. Maybe I just have a high tolerance! :)

[cp1333]

I believe that Joey believes in whatever decision she made at the time she made it. Her IT factor didn't bother me because Joey never bought into it herself.


Joey in earlier seasons was a much more interesting character than the writers made her in S5 and S6. I actually cheered when she told Dawson off the night of her birthday in S6. That was Joey Potter, not that creature who we see in season 5. The old Joey would not have told Pacey to date her roommate, but of course I forgot we aren't supposed to remember that she ever had relations with Pacey, that was the old Joey not the Joey that is going to soon have a relationship with Dawson!

I sound snippy in this post, it is the fault of too much fanfic that has Dawson trying to convince Joey that Pacey is not the man for her.

[TripleMaster]

Joey in earlier seasons was a much more interesting character than the writers made her in S5 and S6. I actually cheered when she told Dawson off the night of her birthday in S6. That was Joey Potter, not that creature who we see in season 5.

Absolutely. I couldn't agree more, cp1333. I have no way of knowing this with certainty, so please file it under "Opinion, Speculative", but I think TPTB were surprised in S1 when Joey turned out to be the great character instead of Dawson. Even though I hated the idea that Joey pined for Dawson, Katie Holmes did a marvelous job with the pining. She was also wonderfully snarky. So, DC had a star. Also to be filed under opinion is my belief that Josh Jackson followed soon thereafter into the star category. I know, it was the WB, and the word "star" has to be kept in context, but I think you guys know what I mean. These two actors and characters jumped out above the others in the ensemble cast.

Then we got P/J together, and it was magic for most intelligent viewers. (Sorry, I just can't give any credit to D/J shippers.) But, TPTB were so wedded to their precious soap opera formula that they had to break up their one and only hot couple that had ever been on the show.

At that point, I think they faced a real problem. The kids were out of high school and the great love was in ashes. What in hell were they to do? They had already abused Jen and had no clue what to do with Jack. Dawson was a disaster. They couldn't put Pacey and Joey together for any substantial amount of time, or the KH/JJ chemistry would have run off with the show.

I can see the writers in a conference room trying to figure it out. "What to do? What to do?"

"Ah, I have the answer! Let's focus on our first and biggest star."

So, the IT was born. But the IT wasn't Joey. We had the Katie Holmes show, but the audience was in love with Joey Potter, not Katie Holmes. Not that there is anything wrong with Katie, and S5 Joey probably bears no resemblance to the real Katie Holmes. I just think the writers totally lost it with the transition away from Capeside, loaded the show on Katie's back, gave her shitty material, and a meltdown ensued.

Oh well, I warned you guys to file it under "Opinion, Speculative"!

Edited by TripleMaster, Jan 11, 2004 @ 1:59 PM.

[Spider Girl]

Good stuff, Triple!

I think TPTB were surprised in S1 when Joey turned out to be the great character instead of Dawson.

I couldn't agree more. The S1 story was "will D/J happen?", but I think TPTB were more concerned with the Dawson-piece than the Joey-piece. KH played that first season so realistically - and she *looked* like a 15-year old tomboy, not like the trendy 90210ers (for example), so it sold. I love MW, but I don't think she was the right person to play the beauty from NY. I love her as indie college student in S5/S6 (at least her persona), but I didn't buy her as a ravishing beauty who stole Dawson's heart. Maybe I was a KH fan too early on! Thus, KH was the female lead...and she became, in many ways, the face of the show.

Also to be filed under opinion is my belief that Josh Jackson followed soon thereafter into the star category.

I agree, but I'd say it was at least a season later. His coming out party was S2. He really became lustworthy in S3. (at least, in my opinion!)

At that point, I think they faced a real problem. The kids were out of high school and the great love was in ashes. What in hell were they to do? They had already abused Jen and had no clue what to do with Jack. Dawson was a disaster. They couldn't put Pacey and Joey together for any substantial amount of time, or the KH/JJ chemistry would have run off with the show.

Excellent analysis. Plus, they made clear that the characters were going their separate ways post HS. Any interaction they would have after that, then, would really have to manufactured.

"Ah, I have the answer! Let's focus on our first and biggest star."

So, the IT was born. But the IT wasn't Joey. We had the Katie Holmes show, but the audience was in love with Joey Potter, not Katie Holmes.

Ah, the IT. And yeah, we loved Joey. But we loved Joey when she was challenged. We loved that she was snarky. We loved that she worked for what she got (both in a job and at her schooling). And we loved that not everything went her way - sometimes she didn't get what she wanted. Joey was ordinary, but her ambition and spine shone through.

I don't know if KH's popularity/success outside DC made TPTB think they needed to upgrade her, or whether their lead character just needed to have it all (see early Dawson), but all of a sudden, Joey didn't have to work for anything. Everything fell into her lap. Working on the Lazar project, her grades, relationships (the prof, Charlie, Elliott) - even her wardrobe. She wasn't like me anymore. She wasn't ordinary. All of a sudden, she was the golden child, and she was spineless.

I've rambled on way too long, but I don't like S5-S6 Joey either. She went from someone like me who earned what she got to someone whose every want and need fell right into her lap. Wrong, wrong, wrong.

[dc friends]

I liked Joey in every season. She's my favorite character. I don't think her "it" phase in seasons 5 and 6 was that bad.

[tersh]

Basically she survived soap-style drama relatively unscathed (i.e. no illigitimate children and dignity intact...unless of course, you count having to mack on the beek as one of those undignifiying experiences...)

I agree with this, but for me, the net result was that she was so boring. The singing thing was really the only excitement from those two seasons, until Castaways. I am on the fence about how I feel about her. Sometimes, I love her and think she's great, and other times, I want to smack her. My hate for her did reach a pinnacle when she slept with Dawson, if for no other reason than 'ew.'

[Spider Girl]

Basically she survived soap-style drama relatively unscathed

Yeah, but DC didn't use a lot of soap-style drama. I may not buy Pacey as a stockbroker, but I buy him not going to college and not knowing what to do with himself after high school (and thus job-hopping). The chef thing is a bit more plausible. But really, no one joined a cult, there was no murder, no drug abuse, no rape, nothing terribly wild and crazy for *anyone*.

think Joey, despite a sharp increase in screen time in season's 5&6, really stayed relatively consistent compared to the other characters over the show.

I disagree with this. Dawson always pursued him filmmaking. Pacey floundered after high school - like I said earlier, this seems in character to me. After Jen's cheerleading experience, it's in character that she would be an indie college student and work at a radio station. I can even see Jack going a little wild and crazy in college. But glamour!Joey seems very different from the thoughtful, determined girl of S1-S4.

[sophronia]

It's all about how passive a character Joey was. Yes, she didn't get pregnant or hooked on drugs or join a cult, but she didn't do anything, really. Opportunities just came to her, she never did anything to seek them out. To me, this was a big change from the girl who was so determined to succeed and make something of herself back when she was in Capeside. Even that silly research project she did for Prof. Creepy could have led to her discovering something interesting about herself or what she wanted to do with her life, but instead the writers just kind of let it die. Her whole life became about whoever she was dating, and I really hate it when writers can't think of anything for the female characters to do except fall in and out of love. Shouldn't Joey have been making some new friends or finding herself in college?

[cp1333]

Absolutely. I couldn't agree more, cp1333.

Blushing Wow Triple quoted me. I am so honored. Seriously I have read your posts and thought you have great insight. I am really glad that I had a comment that you found intelligent!

I have to say I went to a very expensive private college that could be the Wortington of the South. A girl in Joey's income bracket would have had work study to have afforded to attend. My roommate's father was a minister and the girl had several scholarships and work study so that she could have some breathing room for the extras that crop up.

If Joey had problems with tution living with Grams would have made the most sense. Oh wait, I forgot then we couldn't have had Audrey sleeping with Pacey and Jen and Dawson couldn't have slept together under Grams' roof.

I know Joey didn't want to be the girl from the wrong side of the creek, but that girl would not have wandered through S5 without a spine. I mean please the girl has two best friends, one dumps her and then when she sees him again they just return to good friends and the other one, the one she is so in love with or is determined to try to be, now has taken up with the one girl again that she is the most threatened by. Come on at dinner in 510 Joey was like a person on some sort of downer drug. The old Joey would have had a bit more reaction.

Oh well,

[avocato]

Yeah, S1-S3 Joey would have been absolutely appalled by S5 and S6 Joey's vast selection of coats. And why, why, why couldn't S5 Joey have reacted to Dawson's assholishness like a proper (S1 Joey) lady? Hit him with a lunch tray, Joey! Lunch. Tray.

[TripleMaster]

Now I'm blushing cp1333.

My approach to S5 has been to look at my favorite characters (Joey, Pacey and Jen) and pretend it's all a dream sequence. In fact, that's the way I look at everything until Clean and Sober in S6. That way, I have no problem continuing to love little Joey Potter!

Oh, please note that 601 is a nightmare sequence. Really.

[TripleMaster]

Have I ever told you guys how much I love Joey. Well, almost as much as I love bumping the JVDB thread off of page one. Thank you. Thank you very much.

[lyinfait]

WORD to anchorgirl. ITA that she lost her edge and her sass. I just also happen to think she gained some other more irritating character traits in their stead. I do not know if I was overly irritated after my hour and a half long search for the videotape of Clean and Sober but I found that though I like drunk!Joey, I infinitely prefer Old Joey to New Joey in any of her incarnations. It's often called spine on this site but I always thought of it as her edge. Joey was vulnerable, insecure and wanting more than anything to be loved though she would have killed anyone (probably with a single glance) who ever pointed it out. That Joey was strong and determined but with softness to her. I really liked that Joey. Where Old Joey had attitude, New!Joey attempts to have the same come across as shrill and when she's not feeling entitled to everything, she's cutesy. Starting seasons 5 and 6, she bore an discomforting resemblance to Britney Spears to me. I've nothing against Britney but she does that "I'm a dork, look at me use my funny/weird voice, make exaggerated faces so you can see just how silly I am" thing too often for my taste.

Whenever I watch later seasons of Joey, I think when did this happen? I've tried to pinpoint the exact moment that she stopped being the same Joey that drew me to watch but I haven't yet found it. I'm thinking it happened somewhere in S4 though she was still more Old than New then. Whatever the date, it really bothered me today (and I recall that it actually bothered me in first run too). Although she was with Pacey, I found her annoying. Sorry all. I just did. Now, she was nowhere near as bad as she could be with Eddie (ugh, the faces, the baby voice) but I just couldn't get into her. I just kept thinking if she hadn't already been a member of the PJ team, I would not be rooting for them at all, with this interaction to go by. As it is, I think Triple can put me in the Loved Pacey, clung persistently to the memory of Old Joey while accepting New Joey because they once were perfect and I would die before seeing D and J end up together (because that? had no logical foundation whatsoever). I don't think New Joey was good enough for Pacey. Luckily, she came close to redeeming herself in the final episodes when she didn't run to Dawson first, handed out a bit of tough love, and her "I should have known" complete with the expression in the finale when she found out the reason for Pacey's black eye was as Old Joey as I could desire. In fact, finale Joey was much more likeable than Seasons 5 and 6 Joey overall. I think my love for finally seeing PJ acknowledging their previous relationship and having them together again overshadowed the simple truth: until the moment they got back together, the only character I disliked more than Joey was Dawson (and even he was boring and moving out of my radar).

[ShiningBright]

As a wise friend of mine used to say, Pacey didn't love Old Joey. His heart belonged to New Joey. Or Just Joey.

[phbalanced]

New!Joey attempts to have the same come across as shrill and when she's not feeling entitled to everything, she's cutesy. Starting seasons 5 and 6, she bore an discomforting resemblance to Britney Spears to me. I've nothing against Britney but she does that "I'm a dork, look at me use my funny/weird voice, make exaggerated faces so you can see just how silly I am" thing too often for my taste.
Whenever I watch later seasons of Joey, I think when did this happen?

And WORD to you, lyinfait. I have been wondering when the change happened as well. I like to think it was the move to Boston that did it but it was definitely coming through in S4 and just fully bloomed in S5.

[lyinfait]

As a wise friend of mine used to say, Pacey didn't love Old Joey. His heart belonged to New Joey. Or Just Joey.

I can understand that, ShiningBright. Beneath this excellent example of why one should not overthink tv characters lies my attempt to understand and explain how I can not really like New Joey (and even go as far as to say that the way she is now, Pacey deserves better) but then turn around and eee! and sigh at seeing them together again. At last!!
Interestingly, my feelings for New Joey have no bearing on my love for PJ. On her own, I like her not so much but as the other half of the couple, all is right in my world. I believe it is much deeper than my simply wanting Pacey to have what he wanted, even Joey if necessary. That argument is probably stronger for Old Joey with me. She was not without flaw. She could, in fact, be quite annoying too (uptight, a bit judgemental, quick to assume that she was being judged negatively, later she was too spineless about Dawson, etc). And though Pacey hurt greatly in Seasons 3 and 4, often because she held her relationship with Dawson as at least equally (and sometimes it seemed more important) as hers with Pacey, I wanted them together because Pace wanted her so badly. We've already gotten into how writing played a role, as well as how often she did demonstrate how much she loved Pace, and his downward spiral didn't help etc. The point is, she irritated me too and there were definitely moments in S4 that I thought Pacey deserved better than Old Joey but I still wanted PJ together. I think there is a parallel in my love for the character of Joey and Pacey's love for her: we love Joey, not Old Joey nor New Joey, just Joey.

I have no doubt that Pacey loves 'just Joey'. I think he, like many of us, never saw OJ or NJ but instead held another J in his mind's eye: the woman Joey was, this person she had always been and who she would remain through all of the stages and phases of her life. For the audience, it is more closely related to acting "in character or OOC." Simply, NJ could do things that were OOC for OJ but still perfectly within Joey's character because we, the audience, saw more to her than just what appeared onscreen. In the same way, both versions could be awesomely annoying and still in character. We hold our own version of J, one who was never quite the person she appeared though she did act in a manner that more or less fit with her character. For us the character of Joey and for Pacey who Joey 'really' was was never fully OJ, NJ, or any of the other versions that were onscreen. There was a person that she is at heart, the person she could be, the person she might conceivably become that is just Joey. Who Joey is remains mostly static but through virtue of "living", she changes and moves toward and away from that 'true' person she is. (In this same way, Pacey could be always intelligent to my eyes in spite of his performance in school.)

To return to Old Joey v. New Joey, I think it was quite simply a matter of OJ converging more closely to the person I saw Joey to be and that made my preference. And while NJ brought out the wannabe recapper in me [Know what? Go stand in the shut-up line next to Dawson. And please try to refrain from discussing why you're both lame...if that's possible. Which I highly doubt. Don't make me tap the sign!], I feel not the least bit hypocritical to really really want PJ to end up together. Sure, I didn't really like NJ but she was still Joey. And when Pacey looked at her, I know he saw not New Joey or even Old Joey older (heh.) but just Joey. He had never fallen for any of those versions of Joey- he didn't love her because she was OJ anymore than he loved her because she was NJ. He loved her through all of those changes because he had never loved her for those things in particular. And my love for PJ was not specifically a love for Pacey and OJ but a love for P&J, just Joey. I think it's simply that my Joey, the one who drew me most, was never quite OJ (though they shared many traits) but this 'absolute' Joey who was absolutely the one for Pacey. And that is how it is possible for me to view NJ and find her less than Joey-like to the point that were she a different character entirely, I would not root for her to be with Pacey yet also feel quite sincerely that Joey (neither Old nor New) was perfect for and meant to be with Pacey.

Sheesh, I cannot believe I spent as much time on this as I did.

phbalanced, ITA that the 'change' was coming through in S4 and then it fully bloomed in S5. I was just hesitating about including S4 Joey in the New Joey category. I think you put it very well.

[ScarletGirl]

Lyinfait, that was awesome! I'm right there with ya in your thinking! Thanks for the rockin' post!

[lyinfait]

hehe, thanks ScarletGirl. I think you and I are often on the same wavelength since I spend most of my time quoting your posts in my own. And I still do not know why I thought I needed to explain that but I "just had to."

ETA: TripleMaster, thank you. Knowing that you are a great Joey fan, I'm quite honored.

Edited by lyinfait, Feb 1, 2004 @ 1:32 AM.

[TripleMaster]

Terrific post, lyinfait. Thanks.

[hersh]

Okay, after lyinfait's "who's on first-like" post, I have to ask: just how many different Joeys do we figure there are? LOL! Regardless, drunkJoey (old or new) is still my personal preference.

Interesting that you bring up the question of when Old Joey turned into New Joey. I've spent way too much time trying to figure out "The spinectomy timeline", but I have yet to really get it down concretely. Closest I can figure, it started near the end of S3 and slowly picked up speed as S4 went along and then went buck wild after S4. It's the specifics that I'm kind of stuck on.

Edited by hersh, Feb 1, 2004 @ 2:58 AM.