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#31

mad_typist

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Posted Feb 23, 2004 @ 8:11 PM

I like Delenn. I can't help myself.

There's some good Ivanova/Talia fan fic over at the pink rabbit site (I can't remember the URL, but you can google it).

My favorite episode is a tie between Ceremonies of Light and Dark and The Very Long Night Of Londo Mollari.

Worst episode was the one in season 5 where Bryon and Lyta slept together. I wanted to claw my eyes out. I hate the entire telepath arc that season and the highlight for me was when Byron finally bit it.
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#32

starri

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Posted Feb 23, 2004 @ 10:45 PM

It always reminded me of A Canticle for Leibowitz, one of the better books I was made to read in high school.

I believe that's Joe Straczynski's source as well. So you're in good...well, decent...company.

I hate that episode. It's not quite at the bottom of my list, but one of the things I hate is when SciFi scarcifices plot in order to navel-gaze over some point of philosophy. You can do a morality play with allegory and such without resorting to have characters make long speeches at one another.

Which is also my problem with the series finale, though that's redeemed through some nice character moments.
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#33

RiverThames

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Posted Feb 23, 2004 @ 11:19 PM

If I recall, Straczynski claimed he was about halfway through that sequence, and realized it was pretty much straight out of "Canticle", considered totally re-doing it, and then decided that the church angle fit too well to ditch.
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#34

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Posted Feb 24, 2004 @ 9:00 AM

I am rather fond of "Into The Fire" because I love when Morden gets his, and any Episode with Zathras.
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#35

indybear

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Posted Feb 24, 2004 @ 12:33 PM

Morden's head on a pike - always a highlight!
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#36

mad_typist

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Posted Feb 24, 2004 @ 1:33 PM

Not just Morden's head on a pike, but Vir's little smirk and wave to it, also made that one of the highlights of the show.

Edited by mad_typist, Feb 24, 2004 @ 1:35 PM.

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#37

belsum

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Posted Feb 24, 2004 @ 5:25 PM

I'm a fan of Fasten-Zip and the other side of that Babylon 4 adventure.

I also really like drunk Garibaldi. He's the fraggin' head of the whole fraggin' security force you know. And he wants sundried tomatoes on his pizza dammit.
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#38

selkie

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Posted Feb 24, 2004 @ 6:17 PM

First season can be pretty uneven. Some good moments, some setting up things for later years but a lot a lot of filler. Might almost be worth starting at season 2, and then going back to hit some of the season one story arc episodes ("Signs and Portents", the Voices in the Wildernesses, "Babylon Squared") after that.

Second season also has some really good Ivanova moments- the gift shop in "There All the Honor Lies", the alien sex scene in "Acts of Sacrifice", and the heavier Susan-Talia interactions.
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#39

gill

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Posted Feb 24, 2004 @ 7:06 PM

Despite its stupid aspects, I love the series finale. That last shot of Delenn watching the sunrise has me in tears every time. The show did a great job of convincing me that Sheridan and Delenn really loved each other and so, when I see Delenn, I imagine how I would feel if my husband had just died and the bawling begins. And then the credits sequence starts up, and I become a big blubbering mess.

As for favourite overall episodes, though, it's so hard to pick just one. But I've always had a soft spot for "Confessions and Lamentations." And Refa's death in "And The Rock Cried Out, No Hiding Place" continues to stick in my mind long after many of the arc episodes blur together into a larger story. Hmm, I notice a common death theme here. In my own defence, JMS did do a lot of that, though.

Worst? Well, everything having to do with Byron. Bleugh! What a disaster. But I think "Infection" still takes the cake for me as single worst episode.

Favourite line of right this second (since it's impossible to ever settle on a single quotation):
Londo--"Now, landing thrusters.. landing thrusters, hmm. Now if I were a landing thruster, which one of these would I be?"
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#40

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Posted Feb 24, 2004 @ 7:06 PM

the alien sex scene in "Acts of Sacrifice"

Ugh. Seriously, that's like the single worst scene in B5 history. And I'm including all of S1 and S5* in that. I get embarrassed every time I see it, it's that bad. Shit like that is the reason the mainstream populace thinks most science fiction TV is crap. Definitely a glaring example of how bad JMS' writing can be sometimes.

Yuck, I feel nauseous just thinking about that scene.

*Though I liked most of S5, unlike a lot of people.
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#41

Professor Soap

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Posted Feb 25, 2004 @ 2:28 AM

I could never get into Delenn and Sheridan as a couple, it always felt like a force-fit, in that she was too intense, intellectual, poetic, and spiritual and he was too much of a Gung-Ho Reactionary Idiot.

They were waaay too different for it to be believable and Delenn needed someone who more of a match for her.

I always felt the match made about as much sense as Maya Angelou and George W. Bush.

She would have made far more sense with Sinclair or even Garibaldi once he mellowed out.

Delenn remains my favorite alien, I never failed to feel soothed and guided after she made an appearance especially after that cool episode where she gives that nifty philosophical spin on life to Sheridan with that great Chris Franke score in the background:

"The Universe puts us in places were we can learn. They are never easy places but they are right. Wherever we are is the right place, at the right time. The pain, that sometimes comes, is part of the process of constantly being born."

"I will tell you a great secret, Captain, perhaps the greatest secret of all time, the molecules of your body are the same molecules that make up this station, and the nebula outside, that burn inside the stars themselves. We are star-stuff, we are the Universe made manifest, trying to figure itself out. And as we have both learned, sometimes the Universe requires a change of perspective."


Word, Delenn... WORD!

Edited by Professor Soap, Feb 25, 2004 @ 2:37 AM.

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#42

Vaya

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Posted Feb 25, 2004 @ 9:05 AM

I could never get into Delenn and Sheridan as a couple, it always felt like a force-fit, in that she was too intense, intellectual, poetic, and spiritual and he was too much of a Gung-Ho Reactionary Idiot.


Well, I found her annoying as all hell....

Sheridan I thought was tofu boy, no taste on his own but affected by the characters around him.

I couldn't watch season five, and I really tried, but they had killed Marcus and Susan left, and they were my favorite characters. But to then replace them with the Kate-Mulgrew Drag Queen and Fabio was just cruel.

And then to experience the slow, painful character death of Lennier, who was my next favorite character, well that was just too much.
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#43

Professor Soap

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Posted Feb 25, 2004 @ 9:17 AM

Not as painful as them transforming Lennier into some Oedipal Complexed Psychopath so willing to get rid of Sheridan.

Edited by Professor Soap, Feb 25, 2004 @ 9:18 AM.

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#44

starri

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Posted Feb 25, 2004 @ 9:55 AM

I really liked Tracy Scoggins, and thought she made a bad situation about as good as could be reasonably expected.

There's no excuse for Byron, though. I hated Marcus, so to bring Marcus 2.0 back, and eliminate the few redeeming features Marcus had, plus to make the character a total asshat...
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#45

belsum

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Posted Feb 25, 2004 @ 11:27 AM

I liked Scoggins, too, starri. Even during that spin-off series when she and Cap'n Lundberg Do It.

My favorite interactions were always G'Kar and Londo. Poor Londo. I love their individual arcs and their coming together. Such a beautiful dance of fate.

Mr. b and I paraphrase "Drink your last drink, Vir." for almost anything.
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#46

Sandman

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Posted Feb 25, 2004 @ 11:54 AM

I know what people mean when they say Delenn bugged them. I liked her a lot, but I can see how she might irritate you. She did, however, give me one of the biggest laughs of the series. It's that scene where she goes looking for Sheridan and finds him in the War Room: she says that Ivanova says he was "jumping cranky". Delenn's riff on "cranky... grouchy... crotchety" still makes me laugh. I keep wondering if the thing might have been based on Mira Furlan's own puzzlement over the weirdness of English.

Edited by Sandman, Feb 25, 2004 @ 11:54 AM.

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#47

wombathefool

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Posted Feb 25, 2004 @ 12:52 PM

Aside from whole episodes, my two favorite scenes are Franklin and Garibaldi sharing Bagna Cauda (you either love it or don't get it) and Franklin and Marcus' scenes on the way to Mars. Favorite line is from Garibaldi, after Leta scans him on Mars "I think I need more fiber in my diet!"
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#48

Gytha Ogg

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Posted Feb 25, 2004 @ 2:49 PM

Delenn's riff on "cranky... grouchy... crotchety" still makes me laugh.


Hee. See also Delenn conjugating "butt." Yeah, I'm twelve, wanna make something of it?

Any episode with G'Kar and Londo, man, I'm there. The one where they're trapped in the elevator? Gorgeous.

Worst ep? There's cringeworthy moments in a lot of them, but boy, Season 1's Infection just sucks million-year-old biotech eggs. Even so, it sets up IPX for later, and is a good beginning to Franklin's character arc.

Edited by Gytha Ogg, Feb 25, 2004 @ 2:49 PM.

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#49

prophetreturns

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Posted Feb 26, 2004 @ 11:54 AM

Despite its stupid aspects, I love the series finale. That last shot of Delenn watching the sunrise has me in tears every time. The show did a great job of convincing me that Sheridan and Delenn really loved each other and so, when I see Delenn, I imagine how I would feel if my husband had just died and the bawling begins. And then the credits sequence starts up, and I become a big blubbering mess.


I thought "Sleeping In Light" was perfect.

As a loyal fan of both DS9 and B5 I actually prefer B5's finale over DS9's "What You Leave Behind." I thought B5 got it right in its final four hours while DS9 on the other hand was off its game after the excellent "Tacking Into the Wind." DS9 was always more about the characters than the plot, but it was B5 that had the more character oriented scripts in its last few shows while DS9 tried to shoehorn too much story into its last few, especially WYLB. And Sheridan's sendoff was 100 times better than Sisko's.
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#50

gill

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Posted Feb 26, 2004 @ 12:23 PM

I liked Lochley a lot better in Crusade than in S5. For some reason I could never pin down, she just rubbed me absolutely the wrong way in S5: practically everything she did annoyed me. Tracy Scoggins' acting style didn't change between the two shows. And if it were just missing Ivanova, I think that I would've gotten over that by the end of the season. So, why do other people dislike Lochley? I'm curious to know, because my viewing partners never got a hate on for her like I did.
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#51

Unusual Suspect

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Posted Feb 26, 2004 @ 7:26 PM

I agree prophetreturns, Sleeping in Light is much, much better than DS9's finale.

To be honest, I really liked Sheridan and Delenn's romance. I thought it was much more realistic and adult than the majority of Trek romances.

Delenn and Ivanova were also proof that you can be sexy without a catsuit.

(I must apologize for this post, I seem to have more Trek-related bitterness than I originally thought.)
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#52

belsum

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Posted Feb 27, 2004 @ 11:35 AM

Delenn and Ivanova were also proof that you can be sexy without a catsuit.

I agree. And they, particularly Ivanova, were also proof that women actually do change their hair styles from time to time. I rejoiced to see a realistic portrayal of straight, long hair and its tendency to get braided, pony-tailed, curled, left down, etc.
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#53

Professor Soap

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Posted Feb 27, 2004 @ 12:33 PM

I liked Ivanova's hair but I thought it was a little too long and high-maintenance for a woman with her active lifestyle. Delenn's hair started to suck within a few months of her transformation because then they started to style it and then add the Minbari crown over it. Another thing that pissed me off is that I never got to see what David Sheridan (Their Son) looked like. Did we ever see him on-screen?

Edited by Professor Soap, Feb 27, 2004 @ 12:34 PM.

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#54

selkie

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Posted Feb 27, 2004 @ 1:51 PM

Long hair actually works pretty well for the lazy and lacking in time. Many of the different ways Ivanova wore her hair could be done in less than two minutes.
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#55

Vaya

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Posted Feb 28, 2004 @ 8:55 AM

Long hair actually works pretty well for the lazy and lacking in time.


Not in my experience. Long hair tangles easily needs more conditioner and shampoo and sticks to my face in dry weather.

Just saying.


Still, Ivanova had lovely hair. :)

Delenn's hair started to suck within a few months of her transformation because then they started to style it and then add the Minbari crown over it.


It moved didn't it? I thought it moved from all above the crown, to going through the crown. How did she do that, another freaken cacoon?
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#56

ciscokidinsf

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Posted Apr 1, 2004 @ 12:16 AM

Damn... how did we go a whole frelling month without posts??? Specially since season 4 just came out on DVD???

No Matter... here we are again. I am on the way of finishing season 3, (and saw a couple of episodes for season 4... damn library has them all but not in order)

But as a whole, season 3 is the best of the whole arc... I love 'War Without End' parts 1 and 2... the whole Babylon 4 traveling thru time,plus one finally gets to see the scene between Londo/G'kar when he is emperor and G'kar kills him.... that scene had been there for so long since season one, I think.... I was happy to see it. Plus it gives Jeff Sinclair a very important role in the whole B5 arc. For those who kept me unspoiled. Thanks! (Now I need to go back and review season 1 for that episode where they found B4)

Also, right before Delenn and Sheridan start getting mushy (ugh) Delenn gets all bad-assed trying to help B5 when they break off Earth. Sheridan also gets to be a wimpy bad ass too! (That whole episode when they break off earth was really good!) 'Point of No Return' and 'Severed Dreams' are the best action battles I've seen so far in B5.

Also, I am damn glad that Delenn gave the senior staff new 'uniforms' after they break off with earth, Sheridan's waiter white shirt was looking ridiculous.

I think all of this season was penned by JMS... it had to be... the plot pushes forward relentlessly, just like season 7 in DS9, but JMS keeps the pace for almost 3 seasons in a row.

Plus HoYay lovers rejoice... Ivanova confesses her love for Talia! Now I can create my own fan-fic in my mind righ there.

I'm still not sure why Kosh dies... I must've missed it. The new Kosh-Vader seems eeevil.

As for season 4, the beggining is just too slow... specially when we spend a lot of time in the caves of Z'ha'dum. But the Majel Barrett episode was handled fairly good. Her acting was so different from the usual Lwaxana Troi stuff.

As for Marcus.... geez, this guy just makes me puke, plus now, every time I look at him I keep asking... 'So Where's Legolas and Gimli?'

C'mon guys and gals, no one has seen season 3 or 4 in DVD yet?
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#57

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Posted Apr 1, 2004 @ 1:16 PM

The first Kosh dies in the third season episode "Interludes and Examinations", which is the episode with the cast commentary on the DVD set. He dies because the Shadows kill him in retribution for the Vorlons taking a stand against the Shadows. It's one of my favourites.

Majel Barrett appears in the third season, "Point of No Return", not the fourth.

On the HoYay front, it's fun listening to the cast commentary, as they seem to be in on it. It was fun listening to Peter Doyle joking about the lovers' spats between Garibaldi and Franklin.

I finally got the first season on DVD. And it's amazing how well it still holds together. And I really liked seeing that old "Tour of Babylon 5" piece that Walter Koenig did. I remember watching that years ago.
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#58

ciscokidinsf

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Posted Apr 5, 2004 @ 10:27 AM

Ughh!! Trying to watch season 4.... but can't stand the Sheridan/Delenn hijinks anymore.... Teenagers in the WB behave more realistically than these two together. I just don't see what Unusual means by a more mature relationship here. Maybe if I wait another season.

Also, I am kind of mad Garibaldi spends most of the season working against Sheridan, brainwash and all, it just takes too damn long... although Garibaldi, P.I. has his moments. That could've been a 3 episode plot...

And also... what's the deal with the supermodel who happens to be the Mars' Resistance leader?? She can't act to save her life... all she was there for was to give Doc Steven some nookie (While Marcus acts bored and creepy at the same time) The whole Mars thing left a bad aftertaste.

Dunno... season 4 is all over the place... it is not helping that I am watching out of order either.

The funniest scene: after Delenn/Sheridan had a 'ritual' to discover each others' centers of pleasure (while Lennier & crew wait outside). On the elevator ride after the fact, Lennier looks dissaprovingly towards Sheridan as mockingly says: 'whooo-hooo'?? That made me laugh so hard.
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#59

Vaya

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Posted Apr 5, 2004 @ 10:46 AM

but can't stand the Sheridan/Delenn hijinks anymore.... Teenagers in the WB behave more realistically than these two together


Word, word and a million times WORD!

The funniest scene: after Delenn/Sheridan had a 'ritual' to discover each others' centers of pleasure (while Lennier & crew wait outside). On the elevator ride after the fact, Lennier looks dissaprovingly towards Sheridan as mockingly says: 'whooo-hooo'?? That made me laugh so hard.


Frankly, I found Delen's freaken rituals fucking annoying after awhile, I mean not only does she make her intended go through all this, but then several people on her staff and circle of friends.

High maitenence much?

Why don't you just make him screw you in the zocolo, so that everyone in the freaken station will know that you're MEANT FOR EACH OTHER, (which got so damn repetitious, yes, thank you JMS WE.GET. IT)

Although, Lennier did crack me up there, so graceful in the face of annoyance. But that's cause I love him.

Season 3 IMO was the best and then it was downhill from there. Season four was ok, but had several annoying factors, including the John and Delen WE GET IT extragovanza, post-seran wrap Garibaldi and his annoying load of emotional baggage, and various an sundry other plot points which got annoying very quickly.

REally, Ivanova makes it for me....just remember Ivanova is god, Ivanova is god, Ivanova is god.

And season five is the worst though, but I won't go there yet.

ETA: How much have you seen, just so we are clear on what is and isn't a spoiler?

Edited by Vaya, Apr 5, 2004 @ 10:47 AM.

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#60

roosterboy

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Posted Apr 5, 2004 @ 4:34 PM

Anything emotional, like the John & Delenn stuff, has always been a weakness of JMS' writing, if you ask me.
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