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Babylon 5


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#3481

runningoutofnam

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Posted Feb 26, 2012 @ 2:41 AM

In the Beginning shows why the Minbari were going to wipe out the humans.

To them it wasn't war it was a religious crusade.

Which, if this is your flagship, you send it in to do the mop up work anyway?


The Starkiller had been operating in the area wiping out dozens of Earthforce ships. It's not doing mop up operations. When they heard the distress calls it was a matter of "Hey we missed one lets go finish it off as a matter of getting the job done".
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#3482

bbell

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Posted Feb 26, 2012 @ 3:36 AM

As it was said, the Minbari are all honor this and and honor that, but instead of taking the Earthers as POWs subject to whatever Galactic Geneva convention, they basically opted for genocide. So they deserved what they got.

It always seemed to me what we were supposed to take away from this whole thing, was honor can be kind of in the eye of the beholder, and the Minbari, for being so "advanced" and supposedly "enlightened" really weren't.

The decision was made to wipe the humans from the galaxy when we killed their leader when they were showing a gesture of friendship. The Minbari made invading races pay a heavy price for their excursions into Minibari space. For killing their leaders nothing less than genocide would do. Honor is truly a cultural thing.

I wish I had known about this site when the show was on. I did not discover this site until late 2002. And only then I was reading recaps for about year before I realized the forums were here. It would be nice to do a full on discussion on many aspects of this show.
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#3483

ProfCrash

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Posted Feb 26, 2012 @ 11:26 AM

Babylon 5 was built because there was no Galactic Court or Convention. The very idea of Babylon 5 was to create a place where things like the Earth Minbari War could be avoided. Much like the League of Nations and todays United Nations, the representative bodies on Babylon 5 had no authority to enforce any of its findings or dictates. You can guess how well that works.

Just to clear something up. The Minbari flag ship was the Dark Star. Sheridan is called Starkiller because he destroyed the Dark Star. I have seen folks calling the ship Starkiller, that is not its name.

We actually don't know what the Dark Star was doing in that sector of space. To be frank, we know that no ship in Earth Force was a threat to the Minbari. The Minbari ships were so far ahead of Earth Force ships that the war was a joke. They had superior weapons, stealth capabilities, and overall flight capabilities (ie artifical gravity while EF ships still have to generate artificial gravity by spinning). The Minbari had nothing to fear from Humanity.

The initial offense, killing Dukhat, was a pure accident. The Minbari had not raised their shields and a panicky EF Captain launched everything he had at them. Even then the ship was not destroyed, seriously damaged, but not destroyed. It took a bunch of nukes and the overconfidence of the Dark Star to actually destroy the ship.

Earth was toast in that war and everyone knew it.
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#3484

merylinkid

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Posted Feb 26, 2012 @ 11:59 AM

The Earth broadcast during the Battle of Line asking the pilots to hold to allow more civilians to escape was one of the most chilling things in fiction I have ever heard. Heck, even in non-fiction. It ranks up there with the broadcasts for Hungary during the 1956 Soviet invasion where the Hungarians are begging the US to come help them.
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#3485

runningoutofnam

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Posted Feb 26, 2012 @ 1:39 PM

Fast typing gets names switched.

Black Star is the literal English translation of Drala Fi the name of the flag ship.


Dark Star was the bar on the station that had female dancers that Londo often went to for games of chances.
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#3486

bnevs18

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Posted Feb 26, 2012 @ 2:29 PM

Again...many in the Earth populace thought that they won the war (Sinclair's chickybabe in Chrysalis), and many where TM is at in the series think they can take the Minbari. This is explicitly referenced to in his next ep: And Now For A Word.

Reply to Prof below: There's also mention that people say "we would have won had WE done the fighting"...so its basically the war vets who know that say that we got our butts kicked, and the young up and comers who dont know any better who say "lets kick some alien booty!"

Edited by bnevs18, Feb 26, 2012 @ 6:52 PM.

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#3487

ProfCrash

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Posted Feb 26, 2012 @ 4:25 PM

Yup and many in Earth Force correct that misconception pretty bloody fast. Sinclair was all over that statement. Sheridan's comments in C&C when he realized that they could track the rogue Minbari ships weapons made it clear that Earth Force knew that was not possible unless the Minbari wanted us to see what the weapons were doing. Ivanova did not know that and I believe Sheridan told her that EF was not excited for that information to be common knowledge.
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#3488

selkie

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Posted Feb 26, 2012 @ 7:51 PM

Yes, the merchandising was a parody c-story...but in another show where someone from B5 (I cant remember correctly, its been a while since ive heard this) was involved in, it was a kids show and they made a reference to "spacing a teddy".


Bill Mumy and Peter David were co-creators and series writers for Space Cases which was airing on Nick at the same time as B5's original run. (Space Cases had some pretty good SF cred- Harlan Ellison did some voiceover work for them, George Takei shows up for a few episodes, and David Gerrold was an executive story consultant.)

Peter David's wife got the bear as a joke gift for JMS because he was very vocal about hating anything cute. JMS did terrible things to the bear. when they filmed the episode (scroll down to 'JMS Speaks') And then Peter David continued the in-joke on Space Cases.
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#3489

TimeMonkey

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Posted Feb 26, 2012 @ 11:07 PM

Sorry this took so long to get to, I got sidetracked watching Lexx.

And Now For A Word:

-It seems the Centauri are winning the war, or at least pulling ahead. using B5 to transfer weapons wasn't a smart move unless they were trying to goad the Narn into attacking them and making them look like crazed aggresors in front of the other races. It seemed like they were moving a lot of impresisve sounding weapons (no idea what a 'mass driver' is but I hope I get to see it used and that it's impressive) so they're definitely well armed. The blockading of the station didn't sound like a good idea, it was threatening not only their own people but a quarter million civillians, if they'd opened fire it could have turned every race against them. Were tempting the Narn into looking violent and reckless or are they so arrogant to think they could get away with it. I'll admitt, I'd be a bit amused if they pissed off the Minbari and they found themselves on the end of a Minbari ass kicking.
-While the Centauri seemed to act foolishly Londo acted brilliantly. He came across as friendly and rational, easily manipulating the viewers into seeing his side of things. Whatever else might be said of him Londo knows how to manuver the dangers rapids of politics.
-Sadly, the same can not be said about G'Kar. It seems that whenever the Narn don' get what they want or a situation turns against them they throw a mini temper tantrum. Despite acting to defend themselves they do so in a way that pushes potential allies away, it seems that while Sheridan may be sympathetic to the Narn, Earth may be leaning more towards the Centauri. It does make sense, they have a century of good relations with the Centauri, Londo comes across friendly and apologetic while G'Kar comes across as aggressive and angry and the Narn insigated every battle during the incident. It's almost like they don't understand the concept of restraint, it's all or nothing. G'Kar's backstory was horrible, his father getting killed for spilling a drink, and in so cruel a way, no wonder G'Kar hates the Centauri so much.
-That interview with Delenn was harsh. It started out well enough, we hear a bit about Minbar, learn they have three languages, Delenn trying to be friendly and then the interviewer brings up her transformation, fair enough who wouldn't be curious. But then she starts pressing Delenn about how humanity would be insulted and her transformation is a slap in the face to the families of those who died in the war with the Minbari and I grew to seriously dislike the interviewer. Delenn was trying to be nice and the reporter keeps pushing until she's broken down and starts crying, and it almost seems like she was doing it on purpose, like she wanted Delenn to hurt. Consdering Delenn underwent her transformation to bring Minbari and humans together and what she's suffered for it hearing that the humans also hate her for it must have been devastating, up till now the humans on the station had been friendly to her so this would have been an even bigger shock, besides it's never been shown that she even did anything in the war. Dick move, reporter, dick move. I don't know how they managed to get Delenn to agree to the follow up interview but kudos to Delenn for remaining positive and supportive of B5.
-Apparently even Kosh runs for cover in the face of reporters, I wonder if that was before or after they broke Delenn?
-apparently ISN is sponsored by Interplanetary Expiditions and Psi Corps. That doesn't bode well for anything.
-Apparently humanity has not learned it's lesson and has deluded itself into thinking itself a match for the Minbari, once again supporting my belief that there's a rematch coming at some point in the future. Humanity needs it's ego deflated.

Edited by TimeMonkey, Feb 26, 2012 @ 11:10 PM.

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#3490

ganesh

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Posted Feb 27, 2012 @ 12:54 AM

Sorry this took so long to get to, I got sidetracked watching Lexx.

Lexx S3 was some good television. Revive the thread if you'd like. I'm game.
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#3491

runningoutofnam

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Posted Feb 27, 2012 @ 1:01 AM

no idea what a 'mass driver' is but I hope I get to see it used and that it's impressive


Works on the same principle as a rail gun. Simply put electromagnets shoot off mass at high velocity. So high that no explosive is needed and the projectiles are nearly impossible to countermeasure plus much longer range then liquid propellant or gunpowder could achieve. Rail guns would take a small projectile and have the force of a tank round without any explosive just sheer momentum. They are already testing them out on US naval vessels. Basically you get a effectiveness of a cruise missile for the cost a of and old cannon shell. Much safer for the vessel since no explosives needed so no risk of the armory blowing up if the ship is hit. Mass driver is just a bigger scale of object being ejected, up to asteroids for example. Mass drivers are something that could be built today if 20 or 30 billion dollars was devoted to a certain project. They do have benign implications such as launching cargo into space at a cost of a dollar per kilo instead of the 20,000 per kilo that the space shuttle costs. As for people well you got to do some major more investing to enable living things to be shot off into space using a mass driver.

The mass drivers will be seen don't worry and you will see why they are considered weapons of mass destruction.

Edited by runningoutofnam, Feb 27, 2012 @ 1:15 AM.

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#3492

TimeMonkey

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Posted Feb 27, 2012 @ 1:13 AM

Lexx S3 was some good television. Revive the thread if you'd like. I'm game.


Done. Personally I preffered S2. S3 was very repetetive plotwise, though it had great character development.

The mass drivers will be seen don't worry and you will see why they are considered weapons.


From what you've said they'd make great defensive weapons, park them on a moon or something and blast anything that entered the area, great for a trap.
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#3493

bnevs18

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Posted Feb 27, 2012 @ 11:31 AM

Thanks selkie for the teddy info.

ANFAW:
I agree with you about the Delenn interview...for some reason it actually disturbed me and I felt bad for her when I watched it (such things RARELY happen to me...and in rewatches I skip over that...dont know why but it hurts me). The thing you need to keep in mind though is that this is a realistic portrayal of the media...it has its own biases (like current media does). Its shown that at least in this report, people think that they didnt lose the Minbari war and that they think they are stronger than they really are.
Yes, Londo is a great PR person.
"ISN-The Galaxy's most important network!"
I must now tell you to rewatch part of the episode...the Psi-Corps commercial, you missed something ;p
I liked that the extras in the back were mugging for screen time.
This episode shows the Earth's perspective on the coming years...and the next episode is where I consider the series to take off...enjoy.
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#3494

TimeMonkey

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Posted Feb 27, 2012 @ 10:28 PM

Do you mean the subliminal message during the commercial?


Should I watch In the Shadow of Z'ha'Dum tonight or wait a bit? I've only got seven episodes left of this season.
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#3495

runningoutofnam

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Posted Feb 28, 2012 @ 12:21 AM

Watch. By all means watch. It's a great episode.
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#3496

bnevs18

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Posted Feb 28, 2012 @ 12:49 AM

Yes, the subliminal message. Why wait to watch SoZhD? Vir kicks ass!
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#3497

John Potts

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Posted Feb 28, 2012 @ 4:05 PM

And Now for a Word... just shows the way that ISN is going (I guess that's a spoiler, but not much of one) "Earth is best, screw all the rest". And according to Word of God, they had to set the "Subliminal Flash" at exactly the right length (short enough not to be too obvious, but long enough to be registered) because Subliminal flashes are actually illegal in some places (though their effect is disputed).

Mass drivers aren't a new idea, though interesting that you should think of them primarily as a defensive weapon. The "classic" use of them is what's know as the "Heinlein Manouevre" (after the author) of using them to fire asteroids from orbit at a planet - as unguided missiles they're hard to detect (no betraying drive emissions) and they don't need to be aimed (gravity does that for you).
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#3498

TimeMonkey

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Posted Feb 28, 2012 @ 5:36 PM

What kind of monster would bomb a planet with asteroids?





In The Shadow Of Z'ha'dum:
-"What do you want?"
"I'd like to live just long enough to be there when they cut off your head and stick it ona pike as a warning to the next ten generations that some favors come at too high a price. I would look up into your lifeless eyes and wave, like this *wiggles fingers*"
Oh Vir, I now officially love you. I grow more and more worried you will be killed off for being a good influence on Londo and getting in Morden and Refa's way but I still love you.

-Turns out Morden was on the Icarus with Sheridan's wife and now Sheridan knows. Morden's associates are an ancient race known as the Shadows who seem to have a thing for starting huge wars. This will be the first time the Shadows will be fought without the other First Ones around to carry the battle so it's all up to the younger races this time. As I suspected due to comments left by other posters the Vorlons are also First Ones and the only ones who stayed around to help us against the Shadows. This does explain his actions in Deathwalker, he really was staying out of it so we could come to the right conclusion on our owna nd only interfered when we failed to do so.

-Morden's been travelling with a Shadow escort this whole time, impressive that they've gone this long undetected in so crowded an area. When Zack was messing with the camera did he go past the right frequency or did they notice and adapted to it? Delenn said that those who would not serve the Shadows were killed so was Morden modified by the Shadows after agreeing to serve? Was Anna Sheridan killed or did she agree to serve? Either way Sheridan is pissed and Kosh has agreed to teach him to fight the Shadows. Kosh said that if Sheridan goes to Z'ha'dum he will die, is that a threat or a warning?

-Sheridan crosses a few lines in this episode and it's interesting to see how everyone reacts to it. Garibaldi refuses to allow it and resigns, Vir is flustered and backs off, Ivanova pushes until she gets an answer she's satisfied with even if she doesn't agree with it and Delenn and Kosh let him in on their little secrets. Speaking of Delenn and Kosh, this means they knew about the Shadows the whole time and could have backed up G'Kar's claim, or at least letting him in on things in private, and still haven't told the Narn the Centauri have Shadow backup. Why do I have a sinking feeling the Narn are doomed? And how long will Delenn live after G'Kar learns she knew and let it happen?

-Talia got quite a bit to do this episode, yay! First there was the Nigthwatch plot, was Zack flirting a bit with her? Even if he was events later that episode likely killed any shot he had with her, well, that plus he's not an angry Russian Commander. I have a bad feelign about Nightwatch, it seems like one of those organizations that sounds okay at first but then goes way too far, cpntrolling thoughts and opinions as a way to control the population. Fortunately it seems Talia was unimpressed and will not be joining, though sadly Zack did. I like that Talia will not scan someone against their will, she genuinely respects the privacy of others. And good call as we saw just passing Morden in the hall caused her to pass out, who knows what a full scan would have done? Loved her slapping Sheridan, he had it coming and I could tell it was real and she really smacked him hard. It's a pretty big sign how crazed he was getting that he was willing to do that to someone he's called a friend. When Talia passed Morden she saw him as being covered in darkness, the same thing Delenn saw back in season one, does Delenn posses telepathic ability? And it seems telepaths are sensitive to the Shadows, a potential weapon for the upcoming war?


-If the Vorlons are aware the Shadows are returning, and always knew they would, but are still gathering their forces why haven't the Vorlons struck them while they were still vulnerable? It seems Kosh is aware of right when they were awakened so it's not like they were caught off guard. And if I have the timeing right the Shadows were awakened a year before the series began, that explains quite a bit and now I know what Delenn has been hinting at all this time.
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#3499

FoolishWanderer

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Posted Feb 28, 2012 @ 7:25 PM

Yes, Vir is awesome. I'd call that one of the greatest speeches of the whole series, up there with Ivanova is God.

When Zack was messing with the camera did he go past the right frequency or did they notice and adapted to it?

I thought that he was cycling through frequencies, hit the right one, then moved on.

Loved her slapping Sheridan, he had it coming and I could tell it was real and she really smacked him hard.

Yep. According to the commentary, it was real.

As for the rest of your questions, let me give a Kosh-style, "Yes."
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#3500

TimeMonkey

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Posted Feb 28, 2012 @ 8:14 PM

One thing though, are the Shadows vulnerable to any telepath or was it because Talia has super psychic powers?
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#3501

bnevs18

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Posted Feb 28, 2012 @ 8:15 PM

As I suspected due to comments left by other posters


The slap WAS a real slap...whats really funny is Zach and Franklin's (RIP brothas) reaction to it...they werent expecting a real slap but they kept the scene running.

Sheridan goes crazed over possibly finding his wife...wouldnt you? But he's able to let Morden go in the end (although it did take him too long to do so).

ETA: I think TM's question is rhetorical so dont actually answer it and spoil more than you already have, people.

So, TM, do the opening credits make sense to you now?

Edited by bnevs18, Feb 28, 2012 @ 8:18 PM.

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#3502

TimeMonkey

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Posted Feb 28, 2012 @ 8:21 PM

Unless the Shadows reveal themselves and go to war with everyone in the next six episodes not really.
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#3503

ganesh

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Posted Feb 28, 2012 @ 8:47 PM

Turns out Morden was on the Icarus with Sheridan's wife and now Sheridan knows.

One of the novels gives some backstory on this.
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#3504

TimeMonkey

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Posted Feb 28, 2012 @ 10:07 PM

Honestly, I don't think that's something that needs backstory. Some things work best when you don't know what happened.
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#3505

FoolishWanderer

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Posted Feb 28, 2012 @ 11:04 PM

I don't think that's something that needs backstory.

True enough, but it is a good book. I've read it three times or so, which is more than I can say for the Technomage trilogy. Galen is such a whiner.
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#3506

runningoutofnam

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Posted Feb 28, 2012 @ 11:07 PM

It's good backstory and is considered canon.

What kind of monster would bomb a planet with asteroids?

Read Heinlein's "The moon is harsh mistress" Most people in scifi are familiar with mass drivers from that novel.

impressive that they've gone this long undetected in so crowded an area.

If any alien who could see them was there due the shadows not being known to most races except vague legends for a few, the shadows would have just been another weird alien come to visit the station. 259,000 residents at any given time, hundreds of ships coming through it's a veritable zoo of alien visitors.

Nigthwatch plot

It is based on real world stuff including a famous sci fi novel.



I like that Talia will not scan someone against their will, she genuinely respects the privacy of others.

It's also part of the official rules of the psi-corp with big punishment for lower ranging telepaths if it is found out they violated the rules.

why haven't the Vorlons struck them while they were still vulnerable?

Understanding is a three edged sword.
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#3507

TimeMonkey

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Posted Feb 28, 2012 @ 11:12 PM

Understanding is a three edged sword.



My side, their side and the truth?



Galen is such a whiner.


Heh, yeah, he was kinda annoying, wasn't he?


Guess what? I got my dad to start rewatching the series. He's gone through almost all of the first season in the last couple days. Seeing Delenn without hair is kinda jarring once you get used to her new look. When he watched Deathwalker he was already past my favorite part when I found him so I made him go back to the begining so I could see Na'Toth beat down Jha'dur.
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#3508

ganesh

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Posted Feb 28, 2012 @ 11:37 PM

I have to disagree about not needing backstory on Morden. I would suggest re considering. The book gives you more about the Icarus and how Sheridan ran his ship. It's good once you complete the series.
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#3509

TimeMonkey

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Posted Feb 29, 2012 @ 12:10 AM

I kind of like my mysterious liasons to ancient, unkowable beings to have an air of mystery about them. I suppose knowing more about Anna Sheridan could be interesting but she's dead so it's not like it matters, she won't be showing up for anything except maybe flashbacks.
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#3510

runningoutofnam

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Posted Feb 29, 2012 @ 12:14 AM

Heh, yeah, he was kinda annoying, wasn't he?


Have you watched Crusade yet? Galen was introduced there.
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