4296 replies to this topic

[c3k]

I just started watching Season 2 on DVD (Thank you, Arlington County Public Library) and am totally addicted. I REALLY enjoyed it, and am wondering a few things:

a) Noticed on several sites that there was a different captian originally. Whats the deal?
b) I've heard JMS has been discussed as someone who went on forums a lot, etc. Did he really?

What are the five things I should know before jumping in and Netflixing all the DVDs?

[Scade]

Most of the episodes in this guide have comments from JMS, as well as some other fun things. They're usually at the bottom, and I can't remember how spoiler-y any of it is, so read at your own discretion.

[Khnum]

c3k - JMS is very active on-line. The B5JMS Archive contains JMS' posts to Usenet (and other forums) beginning in October of 1995. There is a link at the top of that page that leads to a subscription page for the B5JMS list (this will send you only JMS' posts from alt.tv.babylon5.moderated).

As for Jeffrey Sinclair (B5's first commander) . . . to say that he is critical to the overall story is an understatement. Don't be fooled by the fact that he only commanded B5 for one season; he is a key character, and he will appear in later episodes. If you don't want spoilers, I highly recommend viewing the first season, because trying to find Sinclair's entire story arc on the 'net will reveal *major* spoilers.

If you do want spoilers, a complete episode guide, or pretty much any other information on B5, you can most likely find it through The Lurker's Guide to Babylon 5 that Scade recommended.

[Vaya]

Season 5 Easter Egg: Marcus Cole: Dead or Frozen?

While funny (it really is) it does bring up something that makes me crazy about this show.

I wish they had just let marcus die! It's bad enough they pulled that, thus losing us the two coolest characters and leaving us with the Poodle and her Tofu boy, but then to dangle this "Marcus could still be alive" over us is down-right cruel!

[Gytha Ogg]

to dangle this "Marcus could still be alive" over us is down-right cruel!

Not just us. Think of poor Jason Carter, openly mocked by his castmates in DVD commentary. Apparently, somewhere out there, there is a JMS-penned story kind of resolving the whole Dead or Frozen dilemma. Sadly, not legally available online, as far as I know.

the Poodle and her Tofu boy,

Lyta and Byron? or Lochley and Corwin? Hee...Corwin...soooo cute. Ahem. Sorry, what were we talking about?

Edited by Gytha Ogg, Jan 8, 2004 @ 2:31 PM.

[FoolishWanderer]

It's probably just because I've watched too much B5, but I've heard there's a bloke by the name of Wesley Clark with ambitions of being president of the US. Despite my friends supporting him, I just can't. Anyone else have that problem?

[Vaya]

Think of poor Jason Carter, openly mocked by his castmates in DVD commentary.

aH! AH! BASTARDS!

Apparently, somewhere out there, there is a JMS-penned story kind of resolving the whole Dead or Frozen dilemma. Sadly, not legally available online, as far as I know.

I have heard of this, this is the synopsis I heard...(hell it may have been here)

Apparently he is put in the defrost like 500 years in the future, and then clones Ivanova and lives happily ever after

I kid you not.

Lyta and Byron? or Lochley and Corwin? Hee...Corwin...soooo cute. Ahem. Sorry, what were we talking about?

Sheridan and Delenn, grrrrr, I so can't stand them, I wish they had died in the third season, or at least went away, leaving IVanova in charge, with Marcus, and GAribaldi could've avoided the seran wrap.

[RiverThames]

I've read the story, and Vaya's synopsis is accurate. It's pretty vile. Oh, and what's more...

He has Ivanova's taped memories put in the clone up until her accident, and tells the clone when she wakes up that after the battle they crashed somewhere, so the two of them are "waiting rescue" together. Yes, a romantic love, based on lies.

[Vaya]

That is just so creepy....wtf was Jms thinking?

[Sandman]

And this was written by JMS? Yuck.

[Scade]

Weren't there two other stories? I think one was about G'Kar and Lyta's travels. Does anyone know what those were about?

[Ace]

That's disgusting. But reinforces my already strong conviction that Marcus was a creepy, passive-aggressive jackass.

[AdamMethos]

I recently bought the season 2 and 3 DVD and am rediscovering the B5-luv...

I remember JMS playing a practical joke on Andreas Katsulas and Peter Jurasik where he wrote an entire fake script about G'Kar changing gender and having sex with Londo (the whole story is recounted here starting 9 paragraphs down). Maybe he got tired of fans asking about Marcus and created a horrible story on purpose as a joke. I think most people would prefer not have any resolution to Marcus and Ivanova than have a resolution like that!

Edited by AdamMethos, Jan 9, 2004 @ 1:17 PM.

[roosterboy]

The other three stories by JMS in Amazing Stories and the B5 magazine were:

1. G'Kar and Lyta land on some planet with some kind of telepathic creature (IIRC, this one is pretty vague in my mind)

2. Ivanova discovers that the new Earthforce warship she is commanding after S4 contains leftover Shadow tech

3. A story about Londo's first days as Emperor

There were also two stories by Fiona Avery and Greg Keyes, but I don't really remember much about them.

ETA: Oh yeah, the Avery story was about The young telepath girl from S1, now grown up and working on Minbar. I think the story involved Narns somehow. But I don't remember any more than that, I'm afraid.

Edited by roosterboy, Jan 9, 2004 @ 1:21 PM.

[Khnum]

This site has a list of JMS' short stories, as well as some of JMS' comments about them. I think he knew exactly what he was doing with Marcus' story (which I have read), and I say that as someone who has never wanted Marcus and Ivanova to end up together.

[Vaya]

That's disgusting. But reinforces my already strong conviction that Marcus was a creepy, passive-aggressive jackass.

Oh, he was just highly obsessive and in need of therapy, it's a staple for these shows... :)

I didn't notice the passive-aggressiveness, when was that?

Thanks for the link Khnum, that picture just makes it even worse *shudder*

[Gytha Ogg]

I didn't notice the passive-aggressiveness, when was that?

A classic example would be the "I think you're beautiful, but I'm too scared to actually say it, so I'll say it in a language you don't speak and then lie to you about the translation." thing in Season 3's [flips over to Lurker's Guide] Shadow Dancing. Oh, whatever, you foofy-haired goober.

[Vaya]

Oh, well, I guess that's kinda passive aggresive...or I just have a completely different definition for it :)

As for obsession, I didn't think he was too bad with that. I mean, he was trying to be subtle, cute and way melodramatic, which would've driven me absolutely crazy, but it's not like he was stalking her so to speak...unlike some other obsessive brits *Coughspikecough*.....

Really, I saw it as more "I am interested in you, but you're all bitter from past relationships, so I guess the direct approach will earn me a black eye if I am lucky, so I am going to hint at it and try to earn your trust and maybe we can have something."

Now my poor boy Lennier, he was enganging in some stalkery behavior towards the end there, and frankly, I will never forgive JMS for what he did to him. Bastard.

[starri]

Romance in general was not B5's strong point. I think only Garibaldi and Lise were non-annoying enough to prevent me from wanting to throw a brick through the TV, and that was only because they weren't together all that much.

Sheridan and Delenn...there aren't enough synonyms in the English language to describe that great vortex of suck.

[Vaya]

Lol that is so true Starri!

Didn't think much of Garibaldi and Lise, that was mainly after Ivanova and Marcus left.

[Vaya]

And the bitterness continues...

On the scifi site, they were having a discussion about my boy Lennier, and Joe DeMartino (who gave me permission to quote him) said...

Lennier's character:

One of the mythologies that JMS played with, and which everyone seems to forget while hunting "LotR" references, is the Arthur cycle. Lennier was the Lancelot character. Now obviously Delenn was *not* going to commit adultery, but Lennier still played Lancelot's role in falling in love with the "Queen" and betraying his "King".

Lennier's moment of hesitation was *exactly* in character with the wounded Lennier who - despite his claim to Marcus of having a "higher love" for Delenn - could not handle living on the same station with the Sheridans after their marriage, and ran off to join the Rangers. He was trying to become a "man of action" like Sheridan - perhaps in the hope that in 20 years time he can "console" the widow.

As I said to joe, this doesn't make me any less angry about the whole thing, what do you all think?

But the one that originally got me...

"But Bill Mumy is on record as saying that when he complained about the end of Lennier's arc in S5 (he thought it was out of character) JMS assured him that these events put Lennier, "...right where I need him for the Telepath War." "

[sarcasm] oh, that makes it all better, doesn't it?[/sarcasm]

Really, it's been five years, and I am still bitter.

Edited by Vaya, Jan 23, 2004 @ 2:10 PM.

[Gytha Ogg]

Total agreement here, Vaya. The only thing to mellow out the bitterness for me would be that Telepath War movie playing in theaters, instead of just in JMS' head.

Edited by Gytha Ogg, Jan 23, 2004 @ 9:18 PM.

[Scade]

How long do you think he's planning on dragging out the Telepath War temptation, anyway? Throw us something bigger than a chicken bone, here, JMS.

[Vaya]

Here's the entire post from Joe, which may clear up some things ( I should've posted the whole thing in the first place, but I am a flake.)

Yeah, the details are subject to change, but JMS still seems to have the same chronology in mind.

> How JMS does this when he films The Telepath War, may have changed since "The Path of Sorrows" did not work out as planned with Pat Tallman and Bill Mumy. <

Bill Mumy was never going to be in "The Path of Sorrows". The very brief scene was deliberately written so that we only see a Minbari from behind as he swings his pike, keeping the Psi Corps troops at bay while Lyta sets the timer on the bomb. Only when she calls "Lennier" do we realize who the Minbari is. The shot was set up that way because it would have been too expensive to bring Mumy in for even half a day to shoot a few seconds of footage. (And a waste of his time, too.)

Similarly when Garibaldi was featured in the tag of unfilmed script "Value Judgments", Fiona Avery wrote it so that we only hear the pilot's side of their conversation, then see a hand hanging up a telephone and a photograph if Lise Hampton-Edgars-Garibaldi on the desk.

Because they couldn't get Pat for the episode, JMS substituted another telepath for Lyta, and apparently in story terms it is Lyta specifically that Lennier is associated with, so he no longer had a part in a story featuring a different Teep. We know from the Psi Corps trilogy that the IA eventually intervened in the Telepath War, which started out as a civil war between Psi Corps and Lyta's army of Rogue Teeps. (It is one of the things that Bester blames Sheridan for.) It may be that Lennier was sent as the Alliance's emissary to Lyta, to try to head off a final, bloody show-down with the Corps, or it could be that he tried to intervene on his own, knowing what Sheridan and Delenn would want, and also knowing Lyta well enough to think he could reach her. (3rd possibility: G'Kar - who has a habit of running freelance intelligence operations - sends Lennier in with a message for Lyta either without telling Sheridan and Delenn or against their explicit orders. G'Kar is the only one of the inner circle that the disgraced Lennier could really approach to keep tabs on the Sheridans after "Objects")

Regards,

Joe

When the "Rangers" pilot was shooting he was asked about Lyta and Lennier on the moderated newsgroup. He replied, as usual, in Vorlon:

Q: Does Lyta die in the Telepath War?

A: Yes.

Q: Lennier?

A: Right around there, yeah.

The Telepath Trilogy also makes it clear that Lyta died in the Teep War, but is silent on the subject of Lennier. I don't remember more than one or two deliberately vague refrerences to the character in the Centauri Trilogy. (Which is a little surprising given how close he and Vir were.)

But Bill Mumy is on record as saying that when he complained about the end of Lennier's arc in S5 (he thought it was out of character) JMS assured him that these events put Lennier, "...right where I need him for the Telepath War."

Regards,

Joe

Edited because I am retarded with tags

Edited by Vaya, Jan 24, 2004 @ 10:18 AM.

[Scade]

Now I just want to see it even more. Dammit.

Time to rewatch the DvDs.

[Vaya]

breathing life back into this thread....


Uuuuummmmm....favorite episode? Worst Episode? Anyone else hate Delenn with the fiery passion in which I do?

Anyone have good/fantastic/bad/painful fanfic to share?

Please tell me someone else has seen those stories on ff.net with the Neroon/Marcus slash.

[starri]

I don't hate Delenn, but I'm a lot less enchanted with her with some distance between me and the series than I did week to week when it was new. Mostly because of the eventual ODing on the schmoopiness with Sheridan, I suppose.

At the same time, I'd put "Whatever Happened To Mr. Garibaldi" as one of my favorite episodes. I contradict myself and contain multitudes.

[Vaya]

Don't we all? But that episode has Marcus and Neroon (there it is again!) having a Highlander battle, and basically Marcus getting the crap kicked out of him.

I can overlook Delenn for that.

[Scade]

I've always liked Delenn. No matter how cheesy she gets, she can always redeem herself to me with one of her pissed-Minbari-in-command-of-an-uber-ship-and-preternatural-impromptu-speechifying-ability moods.

[Harrison Fjord]

I contradict myself and contain multitudes.

Best Whitman quote. Ever. Okay, it's not a quote... best "homage" then.

At any rate, I really, REALLY tried to get into this show, but couldn't. At first, I think I was boycotting it because all of its fans seemed so bitter about DS9 having the same premise, and I was much more into the Trek universe as a whole than B5's new one.

I've only seen a handful of episodes, most of them in my "Sci-Fi in Popular Culture" class in college (hey, I was a film major... fluff was all I took). But when I catch it on TV it is invariably the same episode: the extrapolation of the B5 universe thousands of years into the future, when Sol goes nova or something.

There's a segment in the middle when a group of monks are debating the mythology of the Sheridan, or something like that. It always reminded me of A Canticle for Leibowitz, one of the better books I was made to read in high school.

At any rate, I'm willing to give the show a chance once I'm able to afford NetFlix again, but I've given up trying to see any episodes on TV. Even if it's not the episode above, I'd probably be clueless about what's going on.