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The Grassy Knoll: Conspiracy Theories (SPOILERS)


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#1

stlouischili

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Posted Jan 2, 2004 @ 8:19 PM

An interesting pattern just occerred to me.

IN the first season, TPTB clearly liked/pushed Christina Christian, Tamyra, Kelly, and Justin.
They clearly did not like Nikki McKibbin and RJ Helton.

The AI1 placement was 1-Kelly 2-Justin and Kelly and Justin both recorded CD's, appeared in a movie, and heavily marketed, etc.

3-Nikki---no marketing, she just disappeared. (not TPTB fave)

4-Tamyra who got a role on Boston Public, and is still marketed in connection with AI

5-RJ-nothing from 19E (not TPTB fave)

6-Christina Christian--TVGuide channel gig, continual AI-related marketing, etc.

Season 2-
1-Ruben 2-Clay see 1 & 2 above (except the movie)

3-KLo--still some AI appearances, but no other 19E help (not TPTB fave)

4-Josh---early TPTB fave, probably would be marketed in connection with 19E and AI if the Marines hadn't put a stop to the spectacle

5-Trynece--nothing from AI (not TPTB fave)

6-Carmen---clear TPTB favorite still---
Anyone want to venture a guess whether Carmen will pop up in some AI/19E marketing scheme within the next year? Maybe oin a Christmas album or recording in London like Christina?

Incidentally, Trynece is appearing in a play with Jackee and both K-Lo and RJ have CD's coming out. Apperently Nikki is recording presently and staying out of the public eye with the deliberate intention of distancing herself from AI. So they all seem to be doing well in spite of not being favored by the AI TPTB.

And obviously no amount of 19E pimping could help Justin's CD sales.

2004 should be very interesting.
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#2

mercenary13

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Posted Jan 2, 2004 @ 10:10 PM

RJ Helton was signed by 19E -- he's been signed by BMG's gospel label and is expected to have a gospel CD out later this year.
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#3

belsum

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Posted Jan 3, 2004 @ 12:54 AM

So has anyone come up with a conspiracy theory for why there were only 3 broads in World Idol yet? You know, if you've got too much time on your hands and are taking requests....
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#4

SusieCue

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Posted Jan 3, 2004 @ 3:43 AM

Because only three girls/women won their respective Idol competitions? Seriously, though, these contests are conducive to male winners. If somebody did a breakdown of voters, I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that more women vote than men. And there's the everpresent "teeny bopper" vote who tend to support male contestants quite vigorously. What I find even more notable than the 8:3 male:female Idol ratio is the number of all-male finals. Canada, Norway and the UK (and possibly others) even had all-male top threes. I don't think it's a conspiracy, though. Just demographics.

ETA: One other factor may be that judges seem to place a higher priority on physical attractiveness for female contestants than for males. This would rule out a lot of potentially talented charismatic women and could skew the contest toward the men. Think about it. While Alex's hair is currently cringeworthy, all three female Idols are very attractive women. The men? Some of them, sure, but not all.

Edited by SusieCue, Jan 3, 2004 @ 3:48 AM.

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#5

playbiller

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Posted Jan 4, 2004 @ 12:35 AM

OK, let me respond to Nikki question. She was signed by 19E, there was a 'creative' difference where they wanted her to record country and she did not want to go that way. They ended up with no album and she could not sign with anyone else until they let her out of her contract this year.

Of course, the record companies and 19E will push for what they want, they figure they are dealing wit kids who have no opinions and they have all the music business knowledge. I think they are slowly learning that people who are aggressive for what they want, do better in the market. Contrast that with Justin who recorded what he was told and waited patiently for his turn and is missing.

Going back to what I had said before, it was based on reports of people calling up DJs and being insulting and saying they were another idol's fan and sending insulting e-mails to the media and DJs and Program directors. Now Peta, I am sure they were Clay fan letters and e-mails. TV shows, not so sure. There is a group of people trying to control one particular message board and they have periodic insulting posts form one time posters who claim to be another idol;s fan and are insulting. i suspect that the people who are trying to control that board post those messages themselves to create angst and ire and justify their rather brutal attacks on other posters. They 'have to keep the bacteria out' so they justify their attaks with anyone who disagrees with them.

As to female idols. I understand that American Idol is looking for a female winner this year. You hear Simon talking about how there are two girls who are terriffic and in the previews, the only people they like appear to be female. I don't think that sounds right, I mean the it appears the only people singing that they like are female, I am not questioning their sexuality.

Edited by playbiller, Jan 4, 2004 @ 12:39 AM.

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#6

cmaybur

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Posted Jan 4, 2004 @ 12:41 AM

RJ Helton was signed by 19E...


No, he was not signed by 19.
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#7

splitchick59

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Posted Jan 4, 2004 @ 2:33 AM

The American finalists of both seasons are more racially diverse as well. I was sort of following UK Pop Idol 2, and the last black finalist was voted off in 6th place, leaving a completely Caucasian top five. Had that happened in American Idol, there could've been riots. But it's a bit more understandable when you factor in the larger percentage of minorities in the United States compared to Great Britain.

Right now i'm betting that the next AI winner is a Hispanic female. TPTB will want to switch off (Kelly-Ruben-?/female-male-female) and Hispanics are now officially the largest minority group in the country, surpassing African Americans. The English-speaking ones are a potentially huge audience to tap into, with new advertising opportunities for that market. I read somewhere that Miami (with over 50% Cuban population) had one of the highest viewing share figures for the AI2 finale of the whole 2002-2003 TV season, much higher than multiple episodes of Friends that had higher national ratings.

Anyway, i'm sure 19E have already picked their winner. And she'll be pretty. Not necessarily with a thick booty, because Kelly is curvy herself. They'll want somebody thinner and more conventionally attractive. J. Fu would've done very well this season I think.
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#8

mel ladi

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Posted Jan 4, 2004 @ 4:26 AM

Anyway, i'm sure 19E have already picked their winner. And she'll be pretty. Not necessarily with a thick booty, because Kelly is curvy herself. They'll want somebody thinner and more conventionally attractive. J. Fu would've done very well this season I think.


God, WORD, babes. I really think we'll see a Latina. I'm also thinking the top two will be female. About the conventionally attractive, am not so sure. That would depend on market research maybe.

I don't know that the pimping is a really good indicator. I remember last year we heard Simon saying the girls were much better than the boys (and so it seemed to me too at that point) yet we ended up with two male finalists. Also, the AI2 runner-up was not promoted particularly heavily in the very early part of the series since I remember being frustrated with having to catch only glimpses of him. Kim Locke was not featured to the extent of Kimberme or Frenchy or even Vanessa was she?
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#9

representin512

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Posted Jan 4, 2004 @ 10:04 AM

Kim Locke was not featured to the extent of Kimberme or Frenchy or even Vanessa was she?


IIRC, they showed KLo's original audition (Somewhere Over the Rainbow, of course), but did not have an interview with her as they did with Frenchie. I don't remember one with Vanessa either, though they also showed her original audition. The next time we saw Kim, she was explaining to us that nobody wanted to sing with them in the (usually 3 at a time) group number. Because she and Frenchie had "big voices". Then we saw Frenchie breaking up the smackdown between KimberMe and Julia, after which they kissed and made out. Uh, I mean "up". No Vanessa sightings, though. Next was the infamous "Band of Gold" duet. Equal time for Frenchie and Kim. I honestly don't remember them showing Vanessa at all in the second round, but I could be wrong. And, naturally, Kim and Vanessa got equal time in the top 32, whereas Frenchie never made it to that point. So, all in all, I would say that Vanessa got the short end of the stick in terms of screen time; though, KLo received far less of it overall (out of all the contestants).

Regarding the girls being better than the boys, they definitely were. Remember, at that time, there was Kim Locke, Frenchie, Trenyce, Vanessa, Equoia, Hadas, Candace, even Julia (at that point) who were all good singers. Whereas, they had Clay, Ruben and maybe Josh (at that point) batting for the guys. I'm probably even forgetting a lot of poeple here, who didn't get a chance at the top 32, but should have. But, I think, any way you slice it there were more talented girls than boys. It speaks to the fickle nature of Americans that things turned out the way they did.

Obviously, TPTB do everything they can to manipulate the vote, but I think the pimping only goes so far. Remember, they thought Craggle was good! And Carmen! The list goes on. They got lucky with Ruben, he actually had some talent to back up the pimping. Most of the time, however, the pimping acts only to change the order in which the middle poeple get voted off. I knew as soon as I saw the top 30 in AI 1 that Kelly and Justin would make it to the top (though, I also believed that the top two would be Kelly and Tamyra with Justin third. Thanks a lot stupid AI pimping!!!), and I was fairly sure (once he was voted in as the wildcard) that Clay would be in the top two, if not the winner. The pimping, in my opinion, served only just well enough to split the audience in half. It couldn't overwhelmingly sway the tide. And who knows what the results would have been if every vote had gotten through? I know my constant redialing for four hours for Clay (of which not one vote got through--and I can't be the only one!) would have at least made a dent. So, I don't think the pimping plays as big a part in voting trends as the producers would hope. At least, not without the myriad other things they do to manipulate the vote.

Edited by representin512, Jan 4, 2004 @ 10:07 AM.

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#10

ToffeeBrowne

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Posted Jan 4, 2004 @ 10:25 AM

God, WORD, babes. I really think we'll see a Latina. I'm also thinking the top two will be female. About the conventionally attractive, am not so sure. That would depend on market research maybe.


Damn, I wanted to be the one to officially make this prediction. But I'll take it a step forward, the Top 2 will be females, one a latina and the other a sistah. Remember that you heard it here first.
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#11

stlouischili

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Posted Jan 4, 2004 @ 10:51 AM

Word splitchick. I wish I had thought of that myself.
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#12

kingdead

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Posted Jan 4, 2004 @ 12:31 PM

Ooooh creepy. I've heard told BY THOSE WHO KNOW (ok, an auditioner) that the Man is looking for a Latina finalist. Then again, a Latina can look like "anything" - it's not really a category based on skin color.

The commercials seem to feature black or white women - or at least the "good" contestants. If I don't know their names, though, I can't tell whether they would fit into the "Latina" category.

The bad, waily contestants are all Asian, though. Ha ha ha, LONG DUK DONG WAS FUNNY!
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#13

mercenary13

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Posted Jan 4, 2004 @ 3:27 PM

Latina winner under the age of 19 who looks and sounds like Hilary Duff. 19E watches the Disney Channel and subscribes to Nielsen Soundscan.
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#14

Shack

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Posted Jan 4, 2004 @ 4:49 PM

I'm recapping the results show now, and all the good contestants they are showing are attractive young women.
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#15

lawyergirl

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Posted Jan 4, 2004 @ 4:51 PM

I noticed that bit about the fact that it was mostly attractive young women. But I was struck by just how bland their attractiveness was. One in particular looked as though they took Hilary Duff, Christina Aguilera (pre-Dirrty), Britney (pre-Madge), Jessica Simpson and the rest of the BlondBots and stuffed them into a blender. If that's what's in store for us this season... Ugh.
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#16

ColdGreg

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Posted Jan 4, 2004 @ 5:00 PM

The blenderized BlondBots don't surprise me. Didn't Simon say he didn't want this season to be "American Ugly Idol"? The fix is in, y'all!

Edited by ColdGreg, Jan 4, 2004 @ 5:01 PM.

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#17

splitchick59

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Posted Jan 4, 2004 @ 6:09 PM

In the early AI3 commercials, there was one conventionally attractive guy who I think was African American, to which Randy said (paraphrasing) "Dawg, i'd sign you right now, dawg." But besides that, pretty young girls all the way.

Isn't it a shame that the only Asian-Americans they show suck complete refried ass?
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#18

Blake

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Posted Jan 4, 2004 @ 6:22 PM

Off the top of my head, I can't think of any Asian-American contestants from the top 30/32. I'm sure this is a coincidence (I mean, I don't recall any totally bald contestants either), but I thought I'd mention it since the subject was brought up.

I'm not sure TBTB want to go for a straightforward female/male/female winner combination. They might be looking to find singers for as many successful markets as possible. Kelly seemed to going for the mainstream, very faintly edgy teenage pop sound. And it seems like they're trying to push Ruben in the hip-hop direction. So they might be looking for something different this time -- maybe a rocker? Country's possible too, which may have been why they were pimping Carmen and Josh last season.
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#19

lindakoy

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Posted Jan 4, 2004 @ 6:44 PM

Jordon Segundo made the Top 32 on AI2. He is Filipino-American, so that qualifies him as Asian.

ETA: Yes, I know he was a dead fish. I didn't say that there were any GOOD Asian-American singers in AI. Considering the small percentage of Asians in the U.S. population as a whole, the probability of finding someone memorable is not good.

Edited by lindakoy, Jan 4, 2004 @ 7:47 PM.

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#20

MisterIdol

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Posted Jan 4, 2004 @ 7:32 PM

Jordon Segundo


But IIRC, he was really boring, leading most of us forget who he was and that he was even there. (Jamai who?)

Edited by MisterIdol, Jan 4, 2004 @ 7:33 PM.

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#21

ColdGreg

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Posted Jan 4, 2004 @ 7:50 PM

Another conspiracy to look forward to for AI3: will the final two be from group 2 for the third time running?

Edited by ColdGreg, Jan 4, 2004 @ 7:50 PM.

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#22

jmsjmsjms

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Posted Jan 4, 2004 @ 8:45 PM

I would consider it a conspiracy if the judges were specifically trying to choose the winner of American Idol 3 because of race. I'll be watching their comments, or lack thereof, in this next season. Whoever the people are, may the best singer win. This isn't PC Idol...
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#23

philmphile

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Posted Jan 5, 2004 @ 1:42 PM

Isn't it a shame that the only Asian-Americans they show suck complete refried ass?


I remember seeing a commercial in December with a young Asian guy who was singing his ass totally off. He was great! I haven't seen him recently, though.
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#24

osage

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Posted Jan 5, 2004 @ 2:05 PM

Isn't it a shame that the only Asian-Americans they show suck complete refried ass?

I remember seeing a commercial in December with a young Asian guy who was singing his ass totally off. He was great! I haven't seen him recently, though.


As long as they don't show the Asians only to have them be forced to do KUNG-FU for the fetishist pleasure of Ryan Seacrest. Remember that one in the Auditions show? The guy who did it wasn't even Chinese or Japanese!!!

I would consider it a conspiracy if the judges were specifically trying to choose the winner of American Idol 3 because of race. I'll


It did strike me as weird that we went from a WHITE FEMALE winner in the first season to a BLACK MALE winner in the second season. I think I'm just thinking too much into it. Or am I?

Edited by osage, Jan 5, 2004 @ 2:06 PM.

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#25

Bruin4Ever

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Posted Jan 5, 2004 @ 2:14 PM

We'll see if there is an Hispanic woman (read J.Lo wannabe) as the winner this year. Then there would be a definite conspiracy going on here.
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#26

recurring_dream

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Posted Jan 5, 2004 @ 2:29 PM

It did strike me as weird that we went from a WHITE FEMALE winner in the first season to a BLACK MALE winner in the second season. I think I'm just thinking too much into it. Or am I?


I don't think you're putting too much thought into it. Before AI2 even started, I thought TPTB would be on the lookout for (1) a male (most important), and if possible (2) non-white.

This season, who knows?

Edited by recurring_dream, Jan 5, 2004 @ 2:29 PM.

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#27

jcpdiesel21

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Posted Jan 5, 2004 @ 2:29 PM

Right now i'm betting that the next AI winner is a Hispanic female.

splitchick, I was just trying to think of what TPTB would use to follow up Kelly and Ruben. We've got our white girl, and our black guy. Makes sense that a hispanic individual would be next in line, and a girl at that.
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#28

splitchick59

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Posted Jan 5, 2004 @ 3:17 PM

I don't think you're putting too much thought into it. Before AI2 even started, I thought TPTB would be on the lookout for (1) a male (most important), and if possible (2) non-white


Definitely. I'm sure they wanted a male as soon as Kelly won the first season, preferably an black male, who could a) possibly tap into the huge urban market and b) appease those who called the show racist when Tamyra was voted off. As soon as they found Ruben, they had their guy. He fit the demographic requirements and was a talented singer. If they hadn't found him, I think they would've pimped Craggle. TPTB initially considered his "bad boy" image to be a plus, remember?
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#29

abrahamster

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Posted Jan 6, 2004 @ 1:14 AM

It did strike me as weird that we went from a WHITE FEMALE winner in the first season to a BLACK MALE winner in the second season. I think I'm just thinking too much into it. Or am I?


I don't think you're putting too much thought into it. Before AI2 even started, I thought TPTB would be on the lookout for (1) a male (most important), and if possible (2) non-white.


AI appears to be obsessed with filling very exact quotas of positions with the desired race and gender. I remember being concerned during Group Four last year because I knew Corey and Josh were the only two singers who did not stink to high heaven; the women were all awful and could not advance, so I feared that no man would be allowed to emerge into the main draw from the Wild Card competition. They got around that by adding two more spots - and indeed, we had three women and one man come from Wild Card, for an exact 6/6 split. We also had exactly six black people, five white people, and hispanic Vanessa, whom they may have lumped in with the whites for an exact racial profiling. There's no doubt in my mind that this is deliberate - and yes, I think they wanted Ruben at least partly because he was Black AND male. A white male winner had potential problems, and they didn't want a woman of any kind at all.

Watch them pimp a minority woman very hard this time; a white female winner would compete with Kelly, a white male winner might steal some thunder from Clay the Runner-Up Who Lays the Golden Eggs, and a black guy marginalizes Ruben, especially in the substantial likelihood that he has more sex appeal than Ruben.

This is why I'm not voting anymore.
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#30

kingdead

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Posted Jan 6, 2004 @ 9:53 AM

Well, at least it's fairer than the presidential elections. White guy seems to win every time in those. Hmmm!

I'm absolutely sure that some perfectly good singers don't get to the voting stage, or are put in a stacked group, because THE MAN wants a certain kind of winner. I can't feel too upset about it, but it does hurt the show because as time goes by, more and more options are eliminated. While in the first season it seemed like "anyone can win!," now, not so much. Makes for boredom.

Of course, maybe Carmen's sister will win or something. I could be wrong.
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