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Season 4: Rejects & Rejection


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#1

Edward1985

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Posted Dec 31, 2003 @ 7:55 PM

Yeah, that fight scene in "Offspring" with Angel getting his ass kicked by Darla and her 18 months-pregnant belly was pretty surreal, wasn't it?


When the writers made that statement,I don't think they were talking in terms of Angel fighting a pregnant character. I think they were referring to the fact that Charisma Carpenter was actually,ya know..Pregnant. Julie Benz not so much.
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#2

Lutanite

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Posted Jan 1, 2004 @ 5:25 PM

Changing the subject a bit -- I'm Taking the holidays to catch up on some reading, and I ran across an Aztec myth that eerily reminded me of Jasmine. Apologies if everyone else picked this up last year.

Hark at the origin of the sun god Huitzilopochtli, a late comer to the Aztec pantheon. Seems his mum, Coatlicue, Mother Earth, was doing penance by tending a temple on the mountain of the world’s beginning. As she was sweeping, she found a ball of feathers. She tucked it under her skirt for safekeeping. And thereby conceived a child, Huitzilopochtli.

Her other children, the stars, were scandalized by their mother’s condition, and determined to stop the birth of this child. Lead by Coyolxauhqui, the moon goddess, a celestial army stormed the sanctuary. The Earth Mother was terrified, but Huitzilopochtli called out from his mother’s womb that he had a plan. He burst forth fully grown, armed with serpents of fire and light. He ripped his sister, the moon apart, and blasted the stars into the sky. Now they serve Huitzilopochtli.

But Huitzilopochtli is not a complete deity. To stay in this world; to rise each day, he needs to be fed a constant diet of hearts. Battles were fought to create “a convenient market . . . where our god may go with his army to buy victims and people to eat as if he were to go to nearby place to buy tortillas.” saith the Florentine Codex.

Substitute Jasmine and the Beast for Huitzilopochtli, the story isn’t so far apart. Warriors of the stars, both TPTB and the Senior Partners, fought the coming of Huitzilopochtli/Jasmine. Many died. The Sun shows up, playing a different role, but a recognizable one. The sun changed hands, going from the control of what ever force had it to the control of Jasmine. Coatlicue and Cordy aren’t so far apart -- the mountain of the world’s beginning and wherever Cordy was hangin’ are mythically similar. Yeah, Connor was no ball of feathers, but the idea of the unexpected payload; that’s not so far. Jasmine’s weapons were more subtle, but she still ate people. Angel and the changing moon is a frequent theme; going from dark to beige to a warrior of the light; every resurrection dimming . . .

The Aztecs used this story to justify their control of the empire. Their sun god was of uncertain parentage, but ruled by conquest. Angel and the MoG have no right to W&H, but they got it by right of conquest. Aztecs fell to conquest and natural forces; forecasting the Wild Bunch ending we may be facing?
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#3

Kalbear

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Posted Jan 7, 2004 @ 3:05 AM

So the first of the Faith arc came on tonight on TNT, and it just made me totally bitter about S5. Like, I kinda had an idea of how ugly S5 has been, how uninspired the fights were, how bad the interaction the characters had was, but this first ep...crisply paced, high-energy, good lines, great fight scenes (that shot of the Beast knocking faith backwards into the box? Great). Yeah, it still is odd that Angelus decided to kill the beast, but damn if it doesn't make for some compelling television.
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#4

Imsuperorginal

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Posted Jan 7, 2004 @ 1:25 PM

I too watched that episode and all I gotta say is Good times. Goood times.
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#5

roguetamlin

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Posted Jan 7, 2004 @ 8:40 PM

Yeah, those were the good times. I especially enjoyed the Wes/Faith interactions and how after all this time they finally are able to function as a Watcher and a Slayer.

But the Connor/Cordy scene at the end is just like twisting the knife. Poor Connor, I can never say that enough, ever. He seems so smitten with Faith and then Cordy snares him with the imminant Jasmine. Poor kid never catches a break.
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#6

1formybaby

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Posted Jan 7, 2004 @ 10:08 PM

it is still odd that Angelus decided to kill the beast, but damn if it doesn't make for some compelling television


It was my impression that he killed the beast because the beast was trying to issue him orders (way to annoy Angelus, beast), and also as a kind of beast-memo to his master

"I thought that'd grab your attention," Angelus to beastmaster.

As for bringing back the sun. Despite his protestations otherwise, I think Angelus knew fine well that would happen. And why shouldn't he want that, if there are few pedestrians left on the streets to eat? Just a thought.
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#7

Ailiana

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Posted Jan 8, 2004 @ 8:39 AM

I think he knew it might, but because it was part of Angel's fantasy, I think Angelus was dismissive of the idea. Like rescuing puppies or going to Manilow concerts. The kind of thing Angel thinks makes sense probably really doesn't make sense to Angelus.
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#8

jerry

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Posted Jan 8, 2004 @ 2:08 PM

I thought maybe he killed the beast in part because he wanted to kill Faith himself?

Re: the scene where Angelus calls Buffy's house and speaks to Dawn...he calls Dawn by name and then says "it's me". I gather they're telling us Angel calls Buffy frequently enough Dawn knows his voice? If so, that's a pretty efficient way to let us know B/A are keeping in touch.
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#9

PezGirl

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Posted Jan 8, 2004 @ 4:55 PM

I thought maybe he killed the beast in part because he wanted to kill Faith himself?


He never really does say that. He says something about softening her up. That would possibly make it easier for him to kill her, but since she shoves the chain into the window we don't really get to find that out.

Besides, I can't see Angelus wanting to kill her that quickly. He likes to taunt and torment his victims, especially the ones that Angel held close. Angelus did a fairly decent job of that in Orpheus (or maybe the ep before it). There was a moment where I thought she was going to crack and try to kill him. I thought that entire scene was well acted and the ending totally caught me off guard.

Also, there's a general theme amongst evil beings that they don't want other people in charge. They'll work with who they have to until the don't and then they discard them. Ref: Lilah, to a point.

Re: the scene where Angelus calls Buffy's house and speaks to Dawn...

Hmmm...caller ID maybe? Ah crap, no, he called from a payphone. Although, it would have a Los Angeles area code...hey, it could happen!
***
BTW, with the topic being rejections and rejects, is this supposed to be a thread to complain about S4, praise S4 or both? Just curious...

Edited to fix seasons. Too bad ME can't do the same thing

Edited by PezGirl, Jan 8, 2004 @ 5:50 PM.

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#10

CCR

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Posted Jan 8, 2004 @ 5:46 PM

Neither; it's the S4 topic. Lots of rejection all 'round for Angel and the MoG.

I thought "It's me" was a joke about Angelus' ego, like he just assumes everyone knows it's him cause he's so important; I can't see Angel being quite so familiar.

Also thought Angelus got hold of the bone knife and tested his theory that it was the one thing that would pierce the Beast's exterior. He was pleased about how smart he was when it worked but hadn't thought through the whole return of day part.

Edited by CCR, Jan 8, 2004 @ 5:50 PM.

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#11

babybluez

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Posted Jan 8, 2004 @ 6:20 PM

I thought the Angelus/Dawn conversation went:
Angelus: Hi, Dawn..
Dawn: (We don't hear)
Angelus: Yeah, it's me.. (blah, blah, blah)

In this case, because of the "yeah", it seems probable Dawn would have said something like "is that you, Angel?", and he answered with the "yeah, it's me". So I saw that as Dawn recognising Angel's voice rather than Angelus presuming she would know who was calling.

Edited by babybluez, Jan 8, 2004 @ 6:22 PM.

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#12

PezGirl

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Posted Jan 9, 2004 @ 9:47 AM

babybluez that's actually closer to what I figured when I first saw the ep. It still makes the claim valid that for Dawn to have recognized it, even just a little, Angel must've been calling on a fairly regular basis.

With regards to that particular moment, I love the way he says "It's the other one,". There's such disgust and derision in his voice...you can tell he hates Faith, probably because Angel helped her so much. And because she's the one with the best chance of killing him
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#13

quirkygrl

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Posted Jan 9, 2004 @ 10:05 AM

With regards to that particular moment, I love the way he says "It's the other one,". There's such disgust and derision in his voice...you can tell he hates Faith, probably because Angel helped her so much. And because she's the one with the best chance of killing him


I agree that Angelus probably hates Faith but I took his tone in that scene to be more like... "too bad it's not my favorite plaything, but the other one."

Reviewing their history, Angelus got lots of fun out of tormenting (playing with) Buffy, and probably also felt he had a serious score to settle since she sent him to suffer hundreds of years of torture in Hell along with the soul. But, YMMV I guess.
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#14

Imsuperorginal

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Posted Jan 9, 2004 @ 3:05 PM

I honestly hated that scene because I want my AtS without BtVS and all it's characters. I got tired of the whole "saga" of B/A when it was still on BtVS, and everytime they even bring it up just a little eensy bit I can't help but roll my eyes and feel disgusted. But that's just me.
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#15

1formybaby

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Posted Jan 9, 2004 @ 7:05 PM

you can tell he hates Faith, maybe because Angel helped her so much


Maybe so. But then why do you think he wanted to sire her? I think I remember a line like:

Faith: "Screw you"
Angelus: "Maybe after."

Which says that not only was he intent on siring her, but possibly starting a sexual relationship afterwards. And he kept going on, to bait her I know but still, about how alike they both were. I never got the impression Angelus hated Faith at all.

From that call, I took it to mean he didn't have regard for slayers at all anymore, they were just a case of a pain in the ass.
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#16

Vandalisimo

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Posted Jan 9, 2004 @ 7:16 PM

I think he probably would have preferred to play with and torture Buffy, but Faith would more than do in a pinch. And he does have some nice insights into Faith's issues and insecurities which would make for some fun times for him.
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#17

Kalbear

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Posted Jan 9, 2004 @ 8:39 PM

Mostly, I think that Angelus desperately wanted revenge on Buffy. He's smart enough to know that he can't take on two slayers effectively, especially with MoG backup, so he'll have to stick around and deal with Faith - but Angelus was all about Buffy before; he'd naturally want to stomp down on the thing that sent him to hell and stopped his whole destroying-the-world thing.

Mostly, I think it was something of a throwaway line - they wanted to show that Angelus was ready for Faith and he wasn't going to be hiding, but they needed to do it in a reasonable fashion; him stalking them in the hotel would be kind of dumb, but him calling Buffy? That's almost near inspired. I really liked the line; it showed his contempt for people like Angel ("The other one" - not even saying her name - whoa) while showing one of his clearest motivations.
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#18

babybluez

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Posted Jan 10, 2004 @ 12:33 AM

Why do you think he wanted to sire her?


Like, Kalbear, I think that Angelus knew he had to dispose of Faith before he went looking for Buffy. He could have just killed her, but IMO he thought siring her had a couple of benefits. 1) She's hot and would be a great fuckbuddy. 2) Her dark past makes it extremely likely she'd be a vampire who would be evil enough to satisfy him. 3) A vamped Slayer would be probably be much more powerfull than your average vamp, and therefore she would be a great help in taking down Buffy.
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#19

Barely Coherent

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Posted Jan 10, 2004 @ 12:43 AM

Like, Kalbear, I think that Angelus knew he had to dispose of Faith before he went looking for Buffy. He could have just killed her, but IMO he thought siring her had a couple of benefits. 1) She's hot and would be a great fuckbuddy. 2) Her dark past makes it extremely likely she'd be a vampire who would be evil enough to satisfy him. 3) A vamped Slayer would be probably be much more powerfull than your average vamp, and therefore she would be a great help in taking down Buffy.


Also, to add to that, he'd have had the pleasure of ruining all the work Angel had put into redeeming Faith. It would be hard to think of many things that would be more frustrating for Angel.
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#20

1formybaby

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Posted Jan 10, 2004 @ 1:58 AM

I don't think there's any evidence that Angelus had any intention of going after Buffy or seeking revenge for anything she'd done to him in the past. He was quite different after 4 years in LA than he was 6 years previously when he went evil in Sunnydale. I saw no indication he was even thinking about Buffy, apart from finding out which slayer he was dealing with.
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#21

JonW81

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Posted Jan 10, 2004 @ 2:32 AM

I don't think there's any evidence that Angelus had any intention of going after Buffy or seeking revenge for anything she'd done to him in the past.

But there is indication that he would rather be dealing with Buffy than with Faith. He actually sounds bummed that it's "the other one".

He was quite different after 4 years in LA than he was 6 years previously when he went evil in Sunnydale.

And in those four years he doesn't seem to have fallen out of love with Buffy, although his life thankfully doesn't revolve around hers anymore. I'd say that there's more evidence that he'd deal with Buffy after he'd taken out the MoG than that he'd have lost interest in her at all.
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#22

jerry

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Posted Jan 10, 2004 @ 2:49 AM

I honestly hated that scene because I want my AtS without BtVS and all it's characters

I agree. Anytime AtS wants to cut the umbilical cord with BtVS is okay by me. An occasional mention doesn't bother me, though and I generally prefer it to a guest appearance, or *cough* cast addition.

What I liked was that the purpose of the scene was Angelus' sleuthing to determine which slayer was in town, and the "it's me" was just bonus insight that Angel calls Buffy often. I'm a sucker for indication that the characters have lives offscreen.

Disclaimer: I'm not a B/A shipper, and I could totally accept it, if he moved on to someone else, not Eve.

Why do you think he wanted to sire her?

I agree with the reasons stated, and might I theorize that turning Faith and keeping her as a mate, would be the ultimate 'fuck you' to Buffy/Angel... Angel chose Buffy, but Angelus chooses Faith. Kinda makes sense since they're the black/white versions of one another.

Edited by jerry, Jan 10, 2004 @ 4:13 AM.

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#23

DaBigDave

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Posted Jan 10, 2004 @ 3:30 AM

There's also the indication from past history that Angelus likes to have a "family" and given Faith's patterns, she would make for the a nice "evil" protege.

The phone call is a neat little throwaway and one can read a lot into it, or very little. I don't think Angel(us) would have forgotten Buffy, and I think he'd be aware that at some point in time, she'd be something he'd have to deal with - either to get revenge on her or because she'd eventually try to stop him. Or give him the soul back. Plus he did derive much amusement from messing with her before.

I don't need the shows to crossover or be totally tied in, but it's nice to see when the Shows remember that they exist in the same universe. There's also some relevance as they should be looking for ways to foreshadow that 1) someone from Sunnydale was going to show up and 2) Faith was going to eventually head back there.

Edited by DaBigDave, Jan 10, 2004 @ 3:30 AM.

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#24

jerry

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Posted Jan 10, 2004 @ 3:58 AM

given Faith's patterns, she would make for the a nice "evil" protege.

No kidding, DaBigDave. Angelus/VampFaith would be the bestest evil duo ever! Hmm. An idea for AtS Season 6?

Edited by jerry, Jan 10, 2004 @ 4:15 AM.

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#25

Kalbear

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Posted Jan 10, 2004 @ 4:27 AM

I'm thinking they'll not be doing that if they want to try and headline ED and save money per ep. At that rate, they'll basically have no stunts, no special effects, and their writer will be the winner of the Icelandic Angel fanfic contest.

Plus, evil guys are only really all that cool in contrast to good. Angelus was compelling because of his connection to Buffy. The Mayor was interesting because of the connection to everyone and later through Faith. Faith's done that role already; redoing it would be kinda tired.

I'd much rather have Faith turn evil and gather up a posse of all the slayers out there to go kick ass of everyone that ever did her wrong - and throw Angelus in the mix as the first thing she does to distract people (turn Angel into Angelus; poof, no problems with MoG as they're quickly too distracted). But this is quickly turning into fanfic, so I'll stop lest I let loose the hounds of sporkage.
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#26

jerry

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Posted Jan 10, 2004 @ 4:51 AM

At that rate, they'll basically have no stunts, no special effects, and their writer will be the winner of the Icelandic Angel fanfic contest.

Hee.

Getting back to season 4, I did like seeing Angelus. It seems obvious DB (like many actors) likes to play a bad guy. More to work with I suppose. And the Welcome Faith sign was priceless.

Edited by jerry, Jan 10, 2004 @ 5:07 AM.

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#27

East Popcorn St

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Posted Jan 10, 2004 @ 5:05 AM

I don't know that Angelus really did want to sire Faith, and I'm not sure I'd believe his motivation if he did. I mean, he just killed the Beast, and he's presumably gunning for the Beastmaster. Why create another potential rival for power? Would Faith's value as a slayer sex toy really outweigh any potential grief he might create for himself by vamping her? While it's fun for us fans to speculate about a slayer as vampire, wouldn't Angelus be a little bit leary of the possibility that such a creature would be more powerful than himself? I'd be much more inclined to believe that he would keep her barely alive and torture her than turn her.

But that's just me.

Here's a bit more of the exchange between Angelus and Faith in "Release." I swiped this from City of Angel, from the quotes section for the episode:


Angelus: Now, this is disappointing. You never used to bleed so easy.
Faith: Screw you.
Angelus: Hmm. Maybe after. I like my girls to lie still.



(Emphasis is mine)

I think the audience is intended to infer that Angelus is talking about necrophilia in this particular instance, and is just another example of making up for this AtS S4 edition of Angelus either not really proceeding with the killing and mayhem or leaving it all or mostly offscreen. Now, whether or not he would follow through on such a depraved notion will never be known, but I think it indicates that Angelus had no clear intention of turning Faith, at least not at that time. It's just an especially creepy way to say, "Oh, yeah? Well, I'm going to kill you, so there!"

I felt like the impulse to sire Faith was just that-- an impulse that spontaneously occurred to Angelus. Of course, I think the big impetus for that impulse was the need for a misdirect aimed at that part of the audience that knew that ED was not only slated for one more episode of AtS, but was also signed on for five future episodes of BtVS as well. Those of us who were in the know wouldn't be inclined to believe that Faith was really going to die. But making her a vampire would keep the Faith character alive (if not in the strictest sense) . . . and didn't that make for some fun speculation between "Release" and "Orpheus"?

I think, in other words, that it was all just a "gotcha" to string the audience along a while longer. I think the writers just needed a reason to have Angelus take a drink from the clandestinely-dosed Faith, and that conveniently created a cliffhanger ending for "Release" as well as (mostly) convincingly messing with all of us smarty-pants fans who knew ED was already scheduled for future episodes. I honestly didn't think about it too much then, but the idea of Angelus turning Faith seems a bit silly to me now (of course, YMMV).

When I think about the thousand or so different endings that "Release" could have had that would have made me want to throw large objects at my TV or smash it entirely (instead of that whole picking my jaw off the floor thing-- in a good way), I'm all the more appreciative of this episode's ending. Yeah, it was all a big tease, but they could have just had her or Wesley somehow tranquilize Angelus and then pontificate over the snoozing lug about good triumphing in the end, before whisking him off to the Hyperion to be re-souled by Willow in the next episode. In the end, that's pretty much how it happened-- but thankfully, they let the story wander off to a very dark place along the way.
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#28

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Posted Jan 10, 2004 @ 9:35 AM

I was beginning to think I was the only one who thought Angelus meant he might screw Faith after he killed her. Or at least while she was dying of blood loss in his arms. Hasn't he done that in a flashback? What's funny was that I knew ED was moving to Buffy, but in the first couple moments of watching Angelus drain her, I was stunned and screaming "No, you can't kill Faith!" What I loved most about Season 4, and what I miss so much now, was that it could get me so involved that I would forget what little spoiling I had been exposed to. Living in the moment--priceless.
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#29

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Posted Jan 10, 2004 @ 6:36 PM

Maybe Angelus was planning on doing that to Faith, but I also do believe he really would have sired her. From Release:

Faith: I'm not like you.
Angelus: No, but you will be. (He goes in for the bite).

It's possible it was a spur of the moment decision, in which case he wouldn't have had time to think about any possible consequenses. But even if he had been planning it, I think his giant ego would have made him think he'd be able to talk (or hit) VampFaith round if she started making trouble. As Faith loves and admires Angel so much, IMO VampFaith would have transfered those feelings to Angelus and been a good little vampy.

ETA: Did anyone else have a problem when Angelus said he liked his girls to lie still, or whatever it was? I always thought that he got off on the pain and would have preferred his victims conscious and screaming rather than unconscnious and and therefore not able to feel anything. To me, that was a gross mischaracterisation.

Edited by babybluez, Jan 10, 2004 @ 6:48 PM.

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#30

Ailiana

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Posted Jan 10, 2004 @ 7:22 PM

I'm not convinced he was being totally honest about that comment that he likes his girls to lie still. (What, Angelus tell a lie for dramatic effect? Never!) But I do think that it was an effective statement in the moment. Also, I'm not sure Angelus (as a character) isn't the type to just go with the flow, particularly in terms of threats and torture. I think it was menacing, it fit the moment, and that's really all he cared about.
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