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Oh, Pacey, you blind idiot.


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#1

aizjanika

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Posted Jan 13, 2004 @ 3:14 AM

This may not be everyone's cup of tea, but I wanted to put it out there anyway, because it means something to me and maybe someone else will identify with it--or maybe not, and that's okay. I still feel I didn't do a good job here; maybe I should write an entire thesis on this subject. ;-)

A while back, I was saying that I thought that Pacey had some of the personality traits of a cop, and I couldn't explain well what I meant. Then, the other day, I was watching my NYPD Blue Season 1 DVD, "The Making of Season 1" extra thingee. In one part, David Milch (writer, creator) was talking about what makes a cop. He spent about a year and a half reseraching cops before the start of the show, a good deal of that with Bill Clark (now a producer on the show, but back then, a NYC detective). Anyway, so much of what he said was exactly what I meant and couldn't express well, so I wanted to share some of it. (I think that inadvertantly the writers gave Pacey these characterstics by giving Pacey a "cop family," but didn't necessarily intend this.) I believe that Pacey was shown to have many of these characteristics in Seasons 2 & 3 and to a lesser degree in later seasons and alsoa little bit in Season 1. JMHO, of course. :-) I also believe Doug showed some of these same characterstics, even if he was a more by-the-book kind of guy. Pacey may have been a loose cannon and might break the rules, but he had a very strong sense of justice, and because he felt that he was unworthy, he tried to compensate for this by doing for others and trying to fix things or right wrongs. I'm not saying that Pacey was Superman, but just that I see some of these characteristics.

One of the things which I think is true of cops, but is certainly true of our show, is the extent to which what looks to be a drama of the workplace is, in fact, a family drama.  The reason that I think that is true to life is because so many cops are raised in households where the idea of love is filtered through the idea of duty.  That is, cops are emotionally stunted.  And mostly what they’re trained to do in their family is to serve... -- David Milch


I know many will not agree, but I always saw Pacey as someone who usually put duty first--and he also had a strong sense of justice and fairness. While Pacey may not have mowed the lawn when he was supposed to or something like that, I think that if he felt that Dawson or Joey needed something, he would do it--come hell or high water--no matter what. I also think his father's attitude, especially in Uncharted Waters, expressed this in a negative way.

It used to be that such a high percentage of cops were Irish or Italian and the Catholic Church figured in a large way in their psyches.  They believe by definition that they were unworthy, that they were sinful, that they were fuck-ups, and that the only way they could purge themselves of their shortcomings was to serve an institution. --David Milch


While as far as we know, Pacey wasn't Irish, Italian, or Catholic, but he definitely felt unworthy a lot of the time and as though he were a fuck-up. I don't necessarily see Pacey serving an institution so much as "purging" himself through service and duty and helping others. Pacey wasn't helping random people, but it showed in the obvious ways in which he helped Joey & Bessie with the B&B and the way he worked with Dawson on his movies and/or provided Dawson with things he needed (such as the Betamax machine), and also even in his compassion to people like Anna and Hayley.

And so that internal voice which said, 'You fucked up. You’re no good,' began to express itself through alcoholism...or racism...or it filtered through an antagonism through The Boss.  The Job was sacrosanct, but The Boss was someone you could hate.--David Milch


This part doesn't pertain to Pacey exactly. Pacey was not an alcholic, I know he wouldn't be a racist, and I don't think he would be a boss-hater. However, I think would always have authority issues, expecially if his boss were a strong authority figure. His issues with authority would not preclude him from fitting the "cop stereoptype" to a certain degree. All cops don't necessarily believe so much in the letter of the law as in a sense of justice and what's right and what's wrong. The way Pacey went after Rob when he thought Rob had hurt Andie and also after Matt Caulfield when he'd damaged Joey's mural, also illustrate this (to me, anyway).

In the book, True Blue by David Milch and Bill Clark, they talk about how Bill Clark actually kept in contact with the parents of crime victims or other crime victims over many, many years. He would adopt these families as though they were his own, cooking them food and visiting them on holidays. I could *so see Pacey doing this.

Anyway, I love Chef Pacey and Restaurant Owner Pacey, but I think it was a missed opportunity that we didn't see Policeman Pacey. I think I'm just partial to that, so maybe it's just my loss. hehe

#2

kattymom2

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Posted Jan 13, 2004 @ 4:00 AM

aiz, I think that you may be on to something here for sure. Pacey as we know couldn't stand for anyone around him to be hurting or in need of anything. If someone he knew were exhibiting some of these symptoms he would take it upon himself to make it better for them somehow. Whether it was to make them laugh, to show them the truth (as in showing Dawson how and where Mitch died), make sure they recieved justice for a wrong done to them or to take the blame of their actions onto himself. He truly believed in helping those around him in anyway possible.

I don't see him ever becoming a cop though. (Okay, in my dreams yes. Pacey in a cop uniform and handcuffs. Yeah! But I don't think that is what you mean.) I think he is too much of a different drummer kind of guy to want to join the family biz. He believed in the cop mentality but not in the day to day idea of being a cop. He knows what being a cop can do to a person. He saw first hand what it can do to a family and the people around them. It can make them bitter, angry, judgemental people. It can destroy a family. These are things that would scare Pacey to death to become. He absolutely doesn't want to become like his father at all. Emotionally closed off and hurtful. These are things that Pacey struggled desperately in his life to overcome and wouldn't want to take the chance that it would happen again.

Don't get me wrong I am not saying that all cops are this way or that they are bad in any way shape or form. I am just saying that I think Pacey wouldn't want to take that chance.

So yes, I do see how Pacey has all the rescuer, savior, protector, and defender attributes but I just can't see him turning away from his little rebellious nature. Pacey knows there are rules and knows that most of the time they must be followed but also knows that rules are made to be broken at times. I think that if he become a cop he would feel almost hypocritcal at times and we all know that Pacey isn't the hypocrite on this show. Pacey is always flirting with danger and disaster that is part of who he is. That is part of what makes Pacey....Pacey. He has to see how far he can take something before it comes back and bites him on the ass. When he was a kid it was school. He had to break the rules and go against the norm and then when he found out how far he could take it then he had to reel himself in. Another is sleeping with a married woman. While we all know that is not something Pacey would do as part of his moral character it does fit with his almost a bad boy image. He knows it is wrong, he knows he shouldn't be doing it but yet "Hey, what have I got to loose? Why not?".

It is late and I don't know if I am even close to making any sense. So forgive me if it seems like I am rambling on and on and I hope you are getting my point.

#3

aizjanika

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Posted Jan 13, 2004 @ 5:09 AM

katty, thank you so much for your thoughtful response to all that I said/typed. I was afraid I'd seem like such a goon, and I probably did, so I appreciate that you took the time to read & reply with such thought & insight.

I think we both said almost similar things last time I brought up this topic, but I'm not sorry that I did again because I think I said more fully what I meant (if not exactly) and I understood you better, too. And, actually...I think I really agree with you. hehe I want to say, "but...but...but..." but I can't really think of any "buts" right now. Maybe later? hehe

What you said also got me thinking about something else, too. In one way, it would have been too difficult for Pacey to be a cop and that was...he was not "hard" enough. Not that I know a lot about cops or about Bill Clark other than my very tentative research into the cop thing over the past couple of years, but what I do know about Bill Clark anyway is that he is a real sweatheart--very compassionate--but also VERY tough and could be very, very hard when it was necessary. I don't think Pacey could ever be hard like that. (OTOH, detectives, anyway, have to be very in tune with people in order to figure out what's going on. At least according to BC they work very much on instinct as to whether someone is lying or what they think happened, so Pacey would be good at that part.)

Thinking about it from this direction, though, and I think this is something I always saw, but couldn't quite express exactly why--is that Pacey's dad really didn't understand him, and probably never would, not really. I think we mostly assume that Doug got along better with his dad than Pacey did and I think that's a pretty valid assumption, although we don't *really know this and also Doug was so much older that they had probably already worked through any issues they may have had--if they had any. hehehe But anyway, my guess/assumption would be that Mr. Witter also understood Doug to a certain degree. Doug may have been somewhat different from his dad--more by-the-book, more apt to follow all the rules to the letter, etc., he would have understood this personality and been able to deal with it, because their similarities were more apparent than their differences.

Anyway, I actually see Pacey's dad more as someone who is likely to bend the rules if it suited him--either to get the job done or for whatever reason, and I think Pacey also had this trait, but don't think either of them would have seen this as a similarity. Pacey was just a much more emotional person than either his father or Doug, IMHO. I think he wore his heart on his sleeve, as much as he tried to hide it through jokes and sarcasm. I think this bothered his father and he wanted to toughen him up some (as suggested by what he said in Uncharted Waters in the bar, "It's my job..." and I forget the exact quote <G>). It was hard for his father to understand Pacey because his father probably saw this as weakness or as being soft, whereas for Pacey, it was actually one of his strengths (especially as he got older and, hopefully, learned to harness this and not fly off the handle so easily or in such out-of-control ways such as getting into fights, i.e. Matt Caulfield, C.J., & Rich the Sleazy Boss).

So...this would be yet another reason why Pacey wouldn't be comfortable as a cop. It's not that I don't think Pacey was tough and strong because I do, but just that I think that the outer toughness/hardness was something that Pacey didn't have and that would make it very difficult for him to work effectively as a cop.

One more thing that has nothign to do with Pacey, exactly, is the gentle and compassionate way that Mr. Witter dealt with Joey's father and also with Joey. This rang true to me, as far as how a cop would act. (Since John Finn had been on NYPD Blue, maybe he picked this up there. hehe) I think Doug would have been this way as well, though we didn't really see this except when Doug arrested Pacey and the gang, did we?

#4

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Posted Jan 13, 2004 @ 8:47 AM

I think Doug would have been this way as well, though we didn't really see this except when Doug arrested Pacey and the gang, did we?


Yeah, I think we also saw it in EST when Doug was arresting Pacey and Drue. When Pacey grabbed Doug and Doug quickly put up his hands to stop his partner or whoever from doing something to Pacey, I think that showed his tenderness and compassion, in a big way. And the fact that he took Pacey camping to help him figure things out -- well, of course, that was a brother thing, but it also showed that side of Doug.

And let me say a big fat WORD to everything you've said. When you were talking about it before, I agreed somewhat, but now that you've really delved into it and explained more fully, I really see what you're saying and I think you're right. Pacey did have an "inner cop" and I think it showed time and time again throughout the course of the show.

#5

aizjanika

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Posted Jan 13, 2004 @ 11:10 AM

Pacey did have an "inner cop" and I think it showed time and time again throughout the course of the show.


Thanks! That's a good way of putting it...an "inner cop." hehehe Thanks also to David Milch for being able to articulate these qualities so well, too.

#6

kattymom2

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Posted Jan 13, 2004 @ 12:23 PM

Awesome 3edges. I agree Pacey did have an "inner cop" but I still don't think that he would agree or could bring himself to do some of the things that would be required of him if he was a cop.

The first time he had to arrest a woman for shop lifting to feed her kids or for shooting her husband that was beating her up. It would be all over for Pacey. He just couldn't do it. Obey the rules at all cost was never a quality Pacey had. Which just makes me love him all the more.

#7

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Posted Jan 13, 2004 @ 1:06 PM

The first time he had to arrest a woman for shop lifting to feed her kids or for shooting her husband that was beating her up. It would be all over for Pacey. He just couldn't do it.

I couldn't agree with you more, katty. He may have acted like he had a tough exterior, but Pacey was a big softie at heart!

#8

aizjanika

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Posted Jan 13, 2004 @ 1:41 PM

The first time he had to arrest a woman for shop lifting to feed her kids or for shooting her husband that was beating her up.


He would have cut her a break. That's what they do on NYPD Blue. <G>

#9

aizjanika

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Posted Feb 1, 2004 @ 3:41 PM

Dawson & Pacey friendship:

I think that at least the D/P friendship could at least have some basis as a real friendship. I think that D/P did give each other acceptance, for the most part, which they didn't get in other places. Yes, Dawson could be a dickhead, but I think they also probably had fun together. They did talk to each other about all sorts of things and Dawson took Pacey more seriously than anyone else seemed to at the time (S1 & 2). I also think it was shown that they confided in each other a lot. Pacey knew about Dawson's mother having an affair about as soon as Joey did. He didn't run to Pacey first, but he told him right away, as evidenced in...eek I forget, but I think it was Discovery. In season 2, Dawson seems to be the only person with whom Pacey talked about Andie's problems and his worries about her and his relationship with her.

Maybe in later years some people were impressed with Dawson making movies, but when he was younger, he probably just seemed like a weird geek--especially to the other kids. Pacey was loyal to their friendship and, even though we saw very little of it on the show, I can imagine them having fun together as little boys--and can see that each of them brought something to the relationship: Dawson with his big ideas and dreams and Pacey with his sense of adventure and ability to make things happen. I only wish we'd seen that on the show more, but there were little signs of it: Pacey acting in Dawson's movie, Pacey providing Dawson with the Betamax VCR or whatever it's called, the fort they built together, and based on the fact that they'd weathered a storm in that little cove, we can assume they probably spent a lot of time out on the water in boats at times.

So...I can at least imagine the friendship of Pacey and Dawson based on what happened on the show--or at least my interpretation of it. :-)

#10

noahsmom

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Posted Feb 1, 2004 @ 5:51 PM

That was great aiz on the D/P friendship. I was disappointed that they never really showed that they talked about everything that went down in season 3 & 4, just that all of a sudden they are hanging out in Tao of Dawson . I know that Pacey went to Dawson after the rescue and apologized but you never saw them really talk it out.

#11

aizjanika

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Posted Feb 1, 2004 @ 6:19 PM

I was disappointed that they never really showed that they talked about everything that went down in season 3 & 4,


I agree. swansong just mentioned that on the syndication thread and I agreed with her there, too. ;-) When you think about it, TPTB set up this huge angsty thing between Dawson & Pacey and there was never really any payoff for that either until Goodbye Yellow Brick Road, and there the characters weren't even completely clear about what they were arguing about. Maybe that's realistic because when people get angry they are not always thinking clearly, but still, it's a TV show! <G> I would have liked to have seen either resolution to this much sooner or at least an indication that things were still shaky between the two guys--even in some small way. However, in seasons 5 & 6, it was really like nothing either way. OTOH, I do think they tied it up rather nicely with the argument in Goodbye Yellow Brick Road, the tentative start back towards friendhip in JP&TCR, and then the indication that they had rebuilt thieir friendship in the finale. I'm not unhappy with that.

#12

noahsmom

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Posted Feb 1, 2004 @ 6:37 PM

I was not unhappy about their relationship in the finale either. I love the scene where they are all sitting in Pacey's restaurant talkin' about old times. I do remember swansong mentioning this now. I wonder about my memory sometimes. It's being a mom I think LOL!

#13

aizjanika

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Posted Feb 1, 2004 @ 7:52 PM

Well it was just about the same time as you were posting--so I thought maybe you hadn't read that thread yet. :-) And, yes, being a mom can do that to you. I remember when my kids were about 10, I suddenly emerged from this fog I hadn't even known was there until it was gone. hehe Now my kids are older so I don't have a good excuse.

Anyway, I liked the Pacey & Dawson scene in the finale. One of the things I like best about it now, though, was the way Josh reacted to it when he was on The Daily Show. They showed a clip from that and the audience laughed. He was a good sport about it, but the way he said, "That was a nice scene," really cracked me up--and made me want to give him a reassuring hug at the same time. It *was nice! But in the context of the show and the finale, I thought it was a good wrap-up to their relationship and I'm SO glad they didn't cut that scene. This was one relationship that had resolution--finally. Well, at least in my mind it did. :-)

#14

noahsmom

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Posted Feb 1, 2004 @ 10:07 PM

aiz I do feel like I stay in a fog!!

What scene are you talking about in the finale? I can't place one where they are talking by themselves. I have certain scenes I watch and I can't place that one.
Thanks

#15

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Posted Feb 1, 2004 @ 10:25 PM

noahsmom, it's the scene that takes place after they are all sitting in Pacey's restaurant. Jack carries Jen out and then Pacey tells Joey and Dawson to "get the hell out of my restaurant" in a joking way because he has to clean up. Dawson offers to drive Joey, but she declines. Joey leaves and Dawson stays behind to help Pacey clean up and they talk then. Pacey asks Dawson if he's happy and Dawson says, "The stock answer is 'yes.' Anything else would sound like a whiny Hollywood brat."--or something pretty close to that. And...rather than do a terrible job trying to recap this from memory...here's a quote from the *real recap by Sars and Wing Chun:

The triangle is left alone. Pacey says he has to clean up, and Joey's going to head home; Dawson offers her a ride, but she'll walk, as it's not far and it'll sober her up. She hugs them both and takes her leave, and the guys watch her go. "My God, that woman's amazing," Pacey muses. All right…seriously? What's so amazing about her? She's not particularly smart, she's not particularly funny -- she's not particularly anything, except pretty, and Pacey and Dawson's respective obsessions with her say more about them than about any defining traits Joey might have. Pacey then tells Dawson that "that girl you cast on your show? Cannot hold a candle to her." Dawson shrugs, but says that he did "nail Petey, though. Perfect casting," and Pacey jokes that Fake-cey does have "the certain requisite roguish charm." Dawson observes him for a moment before saying condescendingly, "A lot's changed. You've changed." "Yeah, well, life happens," Pacey shrugs, and asks Dawson if he's happy. Dawson's not-really-an-answer is that he knows he should say he's happy, because otherwise he'll sound spoiled and ungrateful (yeah, go figure), but he hasn't actually given it much thought. In other words, he isn't happy, really. He turns the question around on Pacey, and Pacey shrugs again: "Oh, you know me -- I'd be miserable if I was happy." Dawson cocks a brow at him, but Pacey ducks any further discussion and says he'll finish cleaning up, and they share a long hug containing many manly back-slaps, and Pacey tells him it's good to see him. See you tomorrow, blah dee blah -- Pacey heads back into the kitchen, and Dawson stands there, gigantic brow furrowed thoughtfully.


Ah well...I loved it. :-) I also loved the Pacey and Doug scene, but that's for another discussion. hehe

#16

glitter5579

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Posted Feb 1, 2004 @ 10:32 PM

[whispering] I was rooting for the Patriots tonight because Pacey had a banner for them in his locker durning Detention [/whispering]

#17

noahsmom

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Posted Feb 1, 2004 @ 10:33 PM

Okay thanksaiz , I do remember. Like I said I have certain scenes I watch and I have not let my DVD run the whole way through since I bought it. I will have to rewatch that one tomorrow after Love Bites .I'll need cheering up.

#18

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Posted Feb 1, 2004 @ 11:56 PM

[whispering] I was rooting for the Patriots tonight because Pacey had a banner for them in his locker durning Detention [/whispering]

Hee! Me too glitter. Any team of Pacey's is a team of mine. Not to mention Tom Brady's "certain requisite roguish charm"

#19

dc friends

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Posted Feb 27, 2004 @ 3:23 PM

I've been rewatching some season 4 episodes lately and I've got to say that I'm not too big a fan of season 4 Pacey. He's quite different from how he was in the previous seasons. He's kind of moody and irritating in some of those s4 episodes. He was also quite mean on at least two occasions (belittling Doug about his job in 408 and tearing into Joey in 420). His sense of humor also seems to have disappeared. I think I like Pacey the best in s1-3. JMO.

#20

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Posted Feb 27, 2004 @ 4:23 PM

I agree s4 Pacey is very different from Pacey before and after that season for that matter. I guess it was the depression or whatever that caused it. Or maybe losing your personality is the penalty you pay for getting with someone elses soulmate. Or maybe he just left it down in the Florida Keys after s3 and retrieved it on his way back from the Caribbean in time for s5.

#21

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Posted Feb 27, 2004 @ 5:50 PM

I've been rewatching some season 4 episodes lately and I've got to say that I'm not too big a fan of season 4 Pacey.


I loved season 4 Pacey, but I agree he was very different. I do think it was the depression. The more I think about it, the more I think that maybe Pacey was supposed to be somewhat depressed almost from the beginning of the season and then it just got worse over the whole season.

Or maybe losing your personality is the penalty you pay for getting with someone elses soulmate.


hee!

#22

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Posted Feb 27, 2004 @ 7:55 PM

I loved season 4 Pacey, but I agree he was very different. I do think it was the depression. The more I think about it, the more I think that maybe Pacey was supposed to be somewhat depressed almost from the beginning of the season and then it just got worse over the whole season.


He says in 402 that he is waiting for the other shoe to drop, I think he spends the year waiting for Joey to dump him and go back to Dawson. He loves her so much more than Andie, the stakes are higher and he feels that he will never be able to compete with Dawson for the long haul. I think you can watch him show by show get lower and lower. He does a better job of hiding it in some shows that others. He doesn't want Joey to know he still feels like this, he has to make everything as perfect as possible so she will always be happy with him and not want Dawson.

I believe that this is a part of his personality. That is why he is a clown, so he can hide what he feels is the part of him that is less than others.


Audrey and Andie mean a lot to him but he didn't have to fight someone else to get or keep their love.

Just my .02 no, .04 cents!

#23

pretzels

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Posted Feb 27, 2004 @ 8:18 PM

I personally thought Pacey had a lot to be depressed about. How would anyone feel having to take all those classes just so you can graduate as a senior? He thought he was going to be a loser and not accomplish anything while Joey went off to Worthington. I don't think Pacey is miserable all the time. I think it is more towards the end of the season.

#24

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Posted Feb 27, 2004 @ 9:37 PM

pretzels I agree with you I think he did have a great deal to deal with. The least of which is that none of his friends spent any time helping him study. We had the one scene in 404 in Joey's room, but he must have had a class with Jen or Jack, my son and his friends have frequent study sessions together.

Pacey received very little support from his friends.

#25

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Posted Feb 28, 2004 @ 1:37 AM

Or maybe losing your personality is the penalty you pay for getting with someone elses soulmate.


Either that or dealing with Joey Potter as a girlfriend tends to sap away your sense of humor.

Edited by hersh, Feb 28, 2004 @ 1:50 AM.


#26

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Posted Mar 3, 2004 @ 12:36 PM

He says in 402 that he is waiting for the other shoe to drop, I think he spends the year waiting for Joey to dump him and go back to Dawson.


cp1333- I totally agree with you and I was actually thinking this exact thing through last week and over the weekend. Which is yet another reason why when it actually happened that way his non-reaction in S5 is utterly unbelievable.

Last week I watched 401-411 because strangely enough I hadn't seen a lot of those since they first ran. And even though it seemed like they dealt with the other shoe to drop issue in 402, that really is the issue for Pacey throughout the whole season. As Gretchen said he does have Dawson's voice in his ear all the time, telling him he isn't good enough, and he is so scared of that it puts him on edge, and he can't get passed it. Of course I think Joey's behavior in later S4 gives credit to his fears, but I think early on its so clear who she is in love with. I think there was miscommunication because Joey saw that her choosing him should have made it clear enough to Pacey that he is who she wanted- but he always needed more, which I can understand. But I can also understand why that isn't "right" and she shouldn't have always needed to reassure him, and how that could have been frustrating for her as well. I think he knows by promicide that they need to break up because they both need to get over Dawson before they can have the relationship together that they deserve and really want.

Also, I think Pacey is really marginalized in S4 by the "group." I guess it could go either way that they stayed away from him, or he stayed away from them. Regardless, as mentioned above there really was no mutual reaching out (though P/A had some moment post ex and pre Italy). Even though its never made clear that Jack/Jen are mad at Pacey, they have a lot of scenes with Dawson and some with Joey, but I can't think of many with Pacey (except with Jen in Promicide which stands out as a nice scene). Its like his choice made it so Joey was the only person in his life that he could depend on (though Gretchen was also there) so it made the stakes of the relationship even higher for him and him even more paranoid about losing her. Also, though none of us can see why, I think losing Dawson from his life was a real blow to him. And of course the whole grades thing/possibly failing out of school thing. Why no one felt obligated to reach out bothered me as well, as was stated above. I mean Joey couldn't be everyone and everything to Pacey, that is why we in society have mates and friends, and its too bad no one else felt the need to offer a hand.

This doesn't make me dislike S4 Pacey, it just makes me feel bad for him. I can really empathize with his fear that Joey would really want Dawson, and his reactions seem very real. I also think the whole season did have sort of a meloncholy feel to it, but I actually think that is appropriate for a senior year. In general, my senior years in both high school and college sucked. Both were stressful, anxiety ridden times, which I feel TV and movies tend to gloss over as years full of fun.

#27

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Posted Mar 3, 2004 @ 1:12 PM

Last week I watched 401-411 because strangely enough I hadn't seen a lot of those since they first ran. And even though it seemed like they dealt with the other shoe to drop issue in 402, that really is the issue for Pacey throughout the whole season. As Gretchen said he does have Dawson's voice in his ear all the time, telling him he isn't good enough, and he is so scared of that it puts him on edge, and he can't get passed it. Of course I think Joey's behavior in later S4 gives credit to his fears, but I think early on its so clear who she is in love with. I think there was miscommunication because Joey saw that her choosing him should have made it clear enough to Pacey that he is who she wanted- but he always needed more, which I can understand. But I can also understand why that isn't "right" and she shouldn't have always needed to reassure him, and how that could have been frustrating for her as well. I think he knows by promicide that they need to break up because they both need to get over Dawson before they can have the relationship together that they deserve and really want.


Ordinarily I would agree that she shouldn't have needed to reassure him about his Dawson fears, because if you're with someone and you don't trust them then why are you with them? But I think in this case I don't think his fears were all that unfounded. I do think she felt that by chosing him in the end she felt that that should have been enough for him, but I think by then the damage had been done. She'd already proven that when it came to Dawson that no matter what he did or how he behaved or how much she supposedly loved Pacey when it came down between a choice of losing Dawson or losing Pacey she was willing to lose Pacey and I don't think it's easy to come back from the knowledge of something like that with just words. So I don't think his doubts about her commitment to him were all that unfounded especially when you consider that she supposedly chose him after Stolen Moments, but completely went back on that the moment Dawson issued his ultimatum. And pretty much her behaviour through s4 is about placating Dawson and not upsetting him. Granted that doesn't prove that she was still in love with him and yes it was probably about rebuilding their friendship, but it did make it seem like his feelings were a bigger priority to her than Pacey's because I don't really remember a time when it came it came down to a choice that she didn't put Dawson's feelings ahead of Pacey's.

I also think the fact that he admits about waiting for the other shoe to drop does make the fact that the writers decided to downplay the lie after Mind Games even more ridiculous because I think it would have been a very big deal to Pacey because it confirmed his worst fears. Here they were almost a year into their relationahip, she had just slept with him and yet she still felt the need to lie to Dawson about how serious their relationship was. I think it would have pretty much signified the end of their relationship as far as he was concerned. It's also why I think the fact that they were going in oppsite directions would have been kind of a moot fact at that point because I think as far as he was concerned their relationship would have been pretty much over from that point on so what difference would it have made anymore if they were going in different directions. This is also why I think his reaction to finding out she's back with Dawson in s5 is so ridiculous unless by his Romeo and Juliet comment he meant he wished they would both die slowly and horribly. I think it would probably have just confirmed to him that he was probably right all along that she didn't really love him as much as she claimed to. And while I could see him remaining friends with her because he stayed friends with Andie even after she cheated on him I just don't see him being willing to have her go on and on about Dawson to him.

Edited by swansong, Mar 3, 2004 @ 1:40 PM.


#28

catmax99

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Posted Mar 3, 2004 @ 1:55 PM

But I think in this case I don't think his fears were all that unfounded. I do think she felt that by chosing him in the end she felt that that should have been enough for him, but I think by then the damage had been done.


swansong- I think we are pretty much saying the same thing. I totally understand why Pacey needed extra affirmation from Joey because of WWDLS. The way the D/J relationship was portrayed would make even the most secure person need extra affirmation. And as we know S4 Pacey was eons from secure, as was really any season Pacey. My point is these sort of feelings aren't really "right" in any relationship, and regardless of how justified his fears they never really could have move forward until he got over them. Which thank god he did- like 10 years later. =-)

She'd already proven that when it came to Dawson that no matter what he did or how he behaved or how much she supposedly loved Pacey when it came down between a choice of losing Dawson or losing Pacey she was willing to lose Pacey and I don't think it's easy to come back from the knowledge of something like that with just words.


This I actualy do disagree with somewhat. Sure Joey caved to Dawson initially, but she eventually came to her senses, and made the right decision when it really mattered. And from Pacey's point of view, he never knew about Dawson setting her free, which I never gave much creedence to anyway. So by going away with Pacey, after an initial hesitation, Joey should have in Pacey's eyes been seen as risking losing Dawson for him. According to Pacey, the ultimatum still stood, and she went away with him anyway. Therefore I think the initial cave in to Dawson was hurtful to Pacey, but I think much more in his mind should have been the fact that she realized the errors of her ways, and changed her mind, and was willing to lose Dawson to be with him.

And pretty much her behaviour through s4 is about placating Dawson and not upsetting him. Granted that doesn't prove that she was still in love with him and yes it was probably about rebuilding their friendship, but it did make it seem like his feelings were a bigger priority to her than Pacey's because I don't really remember a time when it came it came down to a choice that she didn't put Dawson's feelings ahead of Pacey's.


But what about her choice every day to be in a relationship with Pacey? That, I think, should have been the most important choice to Pacey, no matter what bones she occasionally threw Dawson's way. The only way she could have really placated Dawson would have been by dumping Pacey, which she never even considered doing. And as we have seen becaues she did it twice, Joey Potter was not hesitant about dumping people. And while she was sometimes VERY insensitive to Pacey's feelings (the lie being the stupidest thing she ever did, IMHO), and WAY too nice to Dawson, through it all she was Pacey's girlfriend and he was the one she continued to choose to be with. If she didn't want to be with him, she wouldn't be--something which I think Pacey in S4 never really internalized.

I am no Joey apologist and I don't think she was by any means the best girlfriend to Pacey in S4, and frankly in some epis she was a downright bitch. But I also think that his insecurities about Dawson sabotaged the relationship just as much as her cow towing to his ever enlarging head. Because his S4 behavior is at issue, that is what I am focusing on here.

#29

hersh

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Posted Mar 3, 2004 @ 2:40 PM

I also think the fact that he admits about waiting for the other shoe to drop does make the fact that the writers decided to downplay the lie after Mind Games even more ridiculous because I think it would have been a very big deal to Pacey because it confirmed his worst fears. Here they were almost a year into their relationahip, she had just slept with him and yet she still felt the need to lie to Dawson about how serious their relationship was. I think it would have pretty much signified the end of their relationship as far as he was concerned. It's also why I think the fact that they were going in oppsite directions would have been kind of a moot fact at that point because I think as far as he was concerned their relationship would have been pretty much over from that point on so what difference would it have made anymore if they were going in different directions.


Word to your entire post swansong, but especially this part. Regardless of how the idiot TPTB wanted to portray their breakup, I will never believe that after finding out about the lie, the different directions thing would have even mattered to him at all. Taking into account the end of S3 and their argument about Dawson pre-sex in Winter's Tale, there's no way I can even fathom that the lie, and more importantly what it represented, wasn't the huge straw that totally broke the camel's back, so to speak. I'm not saying a similar lie would have such a back-breaking effect on every relationship, but with the past history of this one.... ummm yeah, that realistically would have been THE.END.OF.THE.STORY.

This is also why I think his reaction to finding out she's back with Dawson in s5 is so ridiculous unless by his Romeo and Juliet comment he meant he wished they would both die slowly and horribly. 


LOL! I can only wish he was thinking that. Hee.

This I actualy do disagree with somewhat. Sure Joey caved to Dawson initially, but she eventually came to her senses, and made the right decision when it really mattered. And from Pacey's point of view, he never knew about Dawson setting her free, which I never gave much creedence to anyway. So by going away with Pacey, after an initial hesitation, Joey should have in Pacey's eyes been seen as risking losing Dawson for him. According to Pacey, the ultimatum still stood, and she went away with him anyway. Therefore I think the initial cave in to Dawson was hurtful to Pacey, but I think much more in his mind should have been the fact that she realized the errors of her ways, and changed her mind, and was willing to lose Dawson to be with him.


Well, I was about to correct your statement about "making the right decision", but from the rest of your post you obviously understand that that's not true. Anyway, this is an interesting viewpoint that I agree with you on to a certain extent. The way the TPTB handled that doesn't really make a lot of sense (surprise, surprise), in that it doesn't really jive with S4 (again shockingly... no continuity between seasons). If they were going to brush Dawson's "release" under the rug and not have Pacey know about it, they definitely shouldn't have emphasized his Dawson insecurities. You're right, as far as he knew she had chosen and she had put him before Dawson's ultimatum, which should've made him more confident in their relationship (although I do think her leaving him at the end of TLD would still have some residual effect). On the other hand, if TPTB were intent on making the D/J dynamic and Pacey's insecurities such a factor in the P/J relationship, then they definitely should've had Pacey learn about "the release".

Of course, then TPTB would've had to acknowledge that her.choice.DIDN'T.change.everything... and they could've been sued for false advertising. Too bad... I always wonder how Pacey would've reacted and handled things upon learning of that juicy nugget.

Edited by hersh, Mar 3, 2004 @ 3:10 PM.


#30

swansong

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Posted Mar 3, 2004 @ 3:21 PM

I agree that her decision to run off with him should have been enough to prove to him that she loved him and I don't think she would have done that if she didn't really love him. And I'm not saying that she was solely responsible for the demise of their relationship because I don't think that.I also agree there's not much point being with someone if you don't trust them. But I also think a big part of the reason why he didn't really trust her feelings for him was because of what happened at the end of season three.Because she'd told him that she'd wanted to be with him then and then when the reality that she could lose Dawson hit she began to backpeddle over the decision to be with Pacey and then caved to Dawson's ultimatum and then basically did whatever she had to do to keep Dawson on side. So as far as he was concerned if she'd done it once what was to stop her from doing it again especially since she then spent practically the entire duration of their relationship still feeling the need to cowtow to Dawson and protect his feelings even at the expense of Pacey's. I don't think it was unreasonable considering their history for him to question what that meant, but maybe the more important question he should have been asking himself is what he was doing with her if he felt he couldn't trust her.

The way the TPTB handled that doesn't really make a lot of sense (surprise, surprise), in that it doesn't really jive with S4 (again shockingly... no continuity between seasons). If they were going to brush Dawson's "release" under the rug and not have Pacey know about it, they definitely shouldn't have emphasized his Dawson insecurities. You're right, as far as he knew she had chosen and she had put him before Dawson's ultimatum, which should've made him more confident in their relationship (although I do think her leaving him at the end of TLD would still have some residual effect). On the other hand, if TPTB were intent on making the D/J dynamic and Pacey's insecurities such a factor in the P/J relationship, then they definitely should've had Pacey learn about "the release".


I agree it would have been interesting to see his reaction to that, but maybe they figured that it wasn't important. Maybe they figured that the fact that there had been a D/J and the magic of that would be enough reason for Pacey to be insecure. So the fact that Joey had only run after him after Dawson gave her permission was irrelevant. Obviously the thing that mattered was that in his heart of hearts Pacey knew that D/J had this special relationship and that regardless of whether she was with him now ultimately she was destined to belong to Dawson and he was just fooling himself to think otherwise. I guess knowing about the release would have overshadowed that fact.

Edited by swansong, Mar 3, 2004 @ 3:35 PM.