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#25441

Mommyof2Cuties

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Posted Apr 12, 2012 @ 9:47 AM

what were the details of this uncle in S9?

Dylan had an uncle with the same kind of car that Kelly bought for Dylan. Dylan said it was that car that would get him up and out of bed on a school day. It's more than possible it was a retcon, but I do think it odd that both Jack and Iris would have no other living relatives around. Then again, Harry Potter only had the Dursleys! ;)

Totally agree with what scarlett45 said about Dylan going into foster care.

I agree with everyone that Jack didn't want Dylan with him in the WPP the first time. I don't think the thought even crossed his mind to even ask him. I think that was part of Dylan's rationale in not going in with him the second time. If Jack didn't want him around when he was younger, why would things be any different now? I still think that Kelly had a lot to do with his decision not to leave with Jack after he came back. I think it follows after he decided not to leave with Gina because of his relationship with Kelly after he heard Dr. Martin's letter that Donna (and Gina) read. I do think there was more to it than just Kelly. I think that he was used to living his life his own way and wasn't willing to give it all up on someone like Jack. I also think his other family and friends played a part in it, although maybe not as strongly since he didn't seem to be in touch with half of them at that point.

I don't think the random call from Kelly is what kept Dylan out of the car. Jack could have easily taken a message from Kelly and got Dylan to call her back. Jack kept Dylan out of the car by insisting that Dylan talk to Kelly right then, putting himself in the car.

I definitely think Kelly had a huge part in keeping Dylan out of the car. Jack didn't even know that Dylan was out there and going to the car until Kelly had called and he went to look for him. I have always thought that the FBI was there and watching Marchette's thugs when they put the bomb under the car. That way Marchette would still feel responsible and whatever criminals went after him would be caught in the act. I don't think that the FBI would have actually let Dylan get into the car, though, so I guess the amount of danger he was actually in was minimal. Except for the trauma that watching your dad "blown to bits" would cause. :(

Yeah, and I always find that conversation so sad :( ďKelly, why do you think I go on binges? My Dad died. I push people away from me who try to get close, I never ever finish anything I start, why, because my Dad died? I donít know who I am without using that as a crutch. I donít know if Iím ready to find out.Ē

Aww, Saz, you just broke my heart all over again posting that! ;) It's stuff like that which makes me love the Jack back from the dead storyline, though. That moment of clarity for Dylan was so needed by that point in his life. I don't know if he would have matured as much as he did by the end of the series without it.

What annoyed me in those episodes though was when Kelly said something to Matt about Dylan's life derailing when his Dad died..I think Dylan's life was already messed up long before then.

Hmm... you're making me really think on this one! :) I do agree that the stage was already set for Dylan's downward spiraling at this point. His formative years were all kinds of messed up. But I also agree with Kelly, too. Despite it all, Dylan was holding it all together. During his senior year when Jack died, he was in a happy place. He was sober, doing well in school, enjoying spending time with his girlfriend, and getting to know his dad. Having that life yanked out from under him when he had craved it for so long was the catalyst for what came later. I think it was losing Jack that made him an easy target for the Scamily and losing his money. I also think he lost Kelly to Brandon because he took her for granted while he was occupied with the Scamily. I agree with you that it was extremely cruel of Jack to build a life with Dylan on that boat, knowing the whole time what the plan was. I think it's a perfect example of how little Dylan truly mattered to Jack in the grand scheme of things.

I guess in Dylan's mind, if Jim cared about him he'd hit him because that would be a reaction, and going by his relationship with his father even a bad reaction is better than no reaction? Instead Jim just stood there.

I think you're right on, and I do think Dylan had been drinking. I think that's why he let his guard down so completely. I would never minimize the impact the Walshes had on Dylan's life, but it's scenes like this that make me think their relationship with Dylan was a double-edged sword. When someone is truly your family, you don't turn your back on them the way Jim did to Dylan every time things got rough with Brenda. Especially not to someone like Dylan who was just learning to trust. I think Cindy did SO much better with this than Jim, but sometimes she was caught between her husband's wishes and what was best for Dylan. Part of the reason I think Brenda and Brandon were the brattiest teens on the show was because they were secure in their parents' love. They could mouth off, disrespect, disobey, and insult them and they would still be loved and cared for. Dylan didn't have that luxury. When Brenda did something wrong, Dylan almost always took the heat from Jim. I think it was this whiplash relationship with Jim (one minute he's calling him "son" and the next minute he's banned from the Walsh house) that made Dylan so desperate to connect with his OWN family, even if it was Jack who he knew would burn him again or the Scamily who he had no reason to trust.

I was so pissed when he got the TG holiday for a weekend out of prison and rather than spend it bonding with Dylan he had to have his booze and his gal. We get it Jack, you want to get laid but you can't spend some time with your son, who got you out, not even an hour?

So with you on this, Maxbird! And the way Christine guilt trips Dylan into letting his dad do what he wanted knowing that Dylan's time with his father was limited by him going into the WPP. Ugh. Besides that, it's just bad manners. He's staying with Dylan, he doesn't get to invite a guest to his home without Dylan's permission.

Jackie (who I usually love) does this to Kelly in a way during the family dinner with Mel and David. I'm totally with Jackie on calling Kelly out for her rude behavior, but I think she really glossed over Kelly's issues with sharing her (finally) sober mom. When she asks Kelly doesn't she (Jackie) deserve to be happy, I always think doesn't your daughter after 16 years of neglect? While she went about it the wrong way, I don't think it was out of line for Kelly to expect some actual mothering now that her mom was capable of doing it. I guess in a way it was good that they had these scenes because it shows what growing up with selfish parents like Jack and Jackie must have been like for Dylan and Kelly.
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#25442

scarlett45

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Posted Apr 12, 2012 @ 10:40 AM

Mommyof2CutiesI agree with your entire post. Besides the fact that Brandon and Brenda were bratty because they were secure in their parents' love. I am secure in my mother's love but I would have never pulled that crap- my mom is old school, I would be dead. LMAO. I think Donna and Steve were secure in their parents love (despite my issues with Felice I believe she would have laid down her life for Donna) but they had respect for their parents even when they disagreed with their choices. I think they were bratty because they were the "voice of the audience" and were saying everything the teen audience WISHED they could say to their parents.

I wanted to add that Jack McKay saw Dylan as a possession. He had no interest in actually parenting him, being there for him in any way other financially but he expected Dylan to love him. It's like those teenage girls who have babies so that "someone will always love me". As a parent it is YOUR job to love the child first and for most. Your minor child does not owe you love just because you contributed half of their DNA and made sure they did not starve to death.

I too thought Jackie was out of line with her "don't I deserve to be happy" bit, of course Kelly shouldn't have been rude etc but Jackie's first responsibility was to her daughter that she had been neglecting. Further more, what kind of conscience did Bill Taylor have to leave his daughter with Jackie knowing about her substance abuse issues and general neglect of her daughter?! Oh, because leaving her with Jackie was easier than dealing with her himself. Goodness. I just hope Kelly had a nice nanny when she was growing up, although I am surprised they never mentioned one.
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#25443

Maxbird

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Posted Apr 12, 2012 @ 9:02 PM

Wow, we sure did have some crap parents on our show, didn't we? I came to love Jackie but I too was appalled when soon after she dried out, she was once again putting her love life ahead of her sadly neglected daughter. After a revolving door of men, Kelly didn't need to be subjected to her mother's libido, she needed a mom who put her first. I "think" when Jackie and Bill were with Kelly that one time Kelly did say something and Bill replied that he'd been even more strung out than Jackie back in the day. Not that that excuses him neglecting her later, after he was straight and surely knew Jackie was a mess.

Agreed that Jim and Cindy made a lot of mistakes but that their children were very secure in their love so felt free to act out and be insufferable at times, and yes, they probably were the voice of teens everywhere who wished they could mouth off like that. I had very loving parents and would never have gotten away with the backtalk and crap that B&B pulled.

I'm going to risk being banished to the poolhall of doom here and defend Jim a little. His pingponging with Dylan was horrible and hurt Dylan. As the adult, I suppose he should have tried harder to understand where Dylan was coming from. That said, as a single parent, I had to be the enforcer with my daughter also and any boy who hurt her, regardless of how much I liked him, was on my "list" instantly unless I thought she was being unreasonable or overly dramatic. And God help a boy who encouraged my daughter to lie and break my very liberal rules. His instinct was to protect Brenda, and at least he held her accountable too, for the most part. Please don't bombard me with examples of when he didn't - there are quite a few - but overall I think he was just a protective, sometimes misguided dad. He was sexist though. Even though he didn't know about Emily V and the U4EA I think if he did know, I can't see him ranting and raving at Emily the way he did at Dylan.

As mere speculation, I think when the writers blew up Jack they had no intention of bringing him back years later or even the show being on years later. I think it was meant to be a mob hit and we were all supposed to be aghast but happy that Kelly's phone call just barely saved our boy Dylan from being a crispy critter. When Jack was brought back I think it was a plot device for the sake of Dylan and Kelly, etc. and we were supposed to not ponder that it made less than zero sense. For one thing, Christina was supposed to love Jack so much. Why didn't she quietly disappear and follow him into oblivion? It didn't seem as if she knew he was alive at any time up until then. And since I'm ranting in general, I couldn't stand her perky self. Even if Jack was a horny bastard, what decent woman would agree to show up at her out for a weekend prisoner boyfriend's son's home for dinner and a sleepover? Surely she would have told him to spend time with his son and maybe find a little time for her over the weekend. GAH, now you guys have got me in poor Dylan mode again and I mostly rag on him for later seasons and loved him during the early ones.
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#25444

KLJ

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Posted Apr 12, 2012 @ 9:39 PM

Good point about Donna asking for a favor from a sports agent.

Also, love how quickly the trial starts. No discovery? And would Joe and Ray really be allowed in Donna's deposition? Doubtful. Same applies to both Valerie and Donna sitting in court before they even testify.

What was Brandon typing on in court? Mini laptop?

Joe and Donna are the most dullest couple ever. No chemistry whatsoever. And they finally set her up with someone who also doesn't believe in premarital sex just so Donna wouldn't have yet another boyfriend cheat on her.....LAME.
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#25445

scarlett45

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Posted Apr 12, 2012 @ 10:27 PM

I'm surprised Donna didn't try to meet more guys through church/religious functions given that those guys would most likely share her values. I love Donna, and totally respect er decision to wait but at 20years old I wouldn't have waited to date a guy who didn't want to have sex until marriage. At that age I wasn't looking for such a serious relationship and six years later I still don't think marriage is for me. Of course I wouldn't have cheated (when David cheated on her freshmen year I screamed at the tv) but I wouldn't have been interested. I do give Donna credit, she let her stance known and didn't hem and haw.
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#25446

mooyoo

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Posted Apr 12, 2012 @ 11:15 PM

Man, every time I watch the episode with Toni's death I hope that it'll somehow turn out differently. Dammit, Bruno, why didn't call Brandon sooner?? Or just drive over to Dylan's house immediately?! Dylan and Toni, why didn't you skip town as soon right as soon as the wedding was over? It's such an awesomely compelling and soapy episode, so well acted by Luke Perry, but at the same time, I always kind of wish that they could've just let Dylan leave and be happy.
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#25447

desertflower

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Posted Apr 13, 2012 @ 8:11 AM

I think he was just a protective, sometimes misguided dad. He was sexist though.


I agree with this assessment on Jim. In general I didn't think he was that bad. His first reactions to things were always a little over the top but given a little time to think on things he usually came around and compromised. I think he really tried with Dylan and often extended him kindness, just to have Dylan pitch a fit about something and accuse the Walshes of abandoning him. I know, I'm officially old now because I am siding with Jim! :) Agreed also that he was sexist, though, and treated Brandon more like a buddy than a son.

Re: Jack's back from the dead plot- I read an interview with one of the writers or executive producers, can't remember which, who said that scene where Jack blows up was deliberately shot to leave that option of bringing him back later. We didn't actually see Jack get in the car, and neither did Dylan. Now, I doubt they had all the plot points worked out and they probably even had totally different writers by the time they revisited the story later, but it sounds like they intended to at least leave the option of bringing him back.

Guess what...my cable provider has picked up Disney Jr, but it is NOT on the channel where SoapNet was, and I still have SoapNet! I'm confused.
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#25448

Saz

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Posted Apr 13, 2012 @ 8:22 AM

Aww, Saz, you just broke my heart all over again posting that! ;) It's stuff like that which makes me love the Jack back from the dead storyline, though. That moment of clarity for Dylan was so needed by that point in his life. I don't know if he would have matured as much as he did by the end of the series without it.


Sorry to share the heartbreak around :( It just gets me every time..I definitely agree that bringing Jack back was a huge turning point for Dylan and I don't think he'd have matured by the end without it, either. He could never get past Jack's death before then. I wonder why they waited that late in the series to bring Jack back?

Hmm... you're making me really think on this one! :) I do agree that the stage was already set for Dylan's downward spiraling at this point. His formative years were all kinds of messed up. But I also agree with Kelly, too. Despite it all, Dylan was holding it all together.


Yes, I think I can agree both ways too. He was holding it together, bar several slip-ups, but I just wonder if it hadn't been his Dad's death would it have been something else which sent him over the edge? Like, his holding it all together was really just a cover as he hadn't dealt with everything he'd gone through growing up and it would all have come crashing down around him sooner or later. Like with Kelly- she changed her life just before the Walshes came to town but then senior year with the diet pills everything just fell apart for her, and as Jackie said they never dealt with things they should have dealt with years ago. But I guess we can never know with Dylan, unless we were the writers ;)

I think it was this whiplash relationship with Jim (one minute he's calling him "son" and the next minute he's banned from the Walsh house) that made Dylan so desperate to connect with his OWN family, even if it was Jack who he knew would burn him again or the Scamily who he had no reason to trust.


That is something I hadn't considered before but I think you are absolutely right :) His yo-yo relationship with the Walshes, especially Jim, was probably the reason he kept going back to Jack and trusted the scamily. It's always nagged at me why Dylan kept going back to Jack- like when he was up for parole and Dylan wrote that letter of recommendation for him, and that he was visiting him in prison. After everything I'd had thought Dylan would have wanted nothing more to do with him. I guess the fact Jack was there, no matter how bad he treated him, was better than not having him there at all. Interesting.

I wanted to add that Jack McKay saw Dylan as a possession. He had no interest in actually parenting him, being there for him in any way other financially but he expected Dylan to love him.


I think that sums it up perfectly!

Further more, what kind of conscience did Bill Taylor have to leave his daughter with Jackie knowing about her substance abuse issues and general neglect of her daughter?!


That is very true; I never realised that before. I guess Bill and Iris have something in common! Or maybe Jack, though he used Dylan when he wanted something and Bill never seemed to do that..did Bill provide for Kelly financially? Do you think Bill did want to see Kelly, but when it came to the time there was always something better to do? Otherwise why bother with contact at all?

I'm going to risk being banished to the poolhall of doom here and defend Jim a little. His pingponging with Dylan was horrible and hurt Dylan. As the adult, I suppose he should have tried harder to understand where Dylan was coming from. That said, as a single parent, I had to be the enforcer with my daughter also and any boy who hurt her, regardless of how much I liked him, was on my "list" instantly unless I thought she was being unreasonable or overly dramatic. And God help a boy who encouraged my daughter to lie and break my very liberal rules. His instinct was to protect Brenda, and at least he held her accountable too, for the most part. Please don't bombard me with examples of when he didn't - there are quite a few - but overall I think he was just a protective, sometimes misguided dad. He was sexist though. Even though he didn't know about Emily V and the U4EA I think if he did know, I can't see him ranting and raving at Emily the way he did at Dylan.


I'm not going to banish you lol, but I will be devil's advocate and say I disagree with you here. I don't think the reason for Jim's actions was to protect Brenda, I think it was because he couldn't stand that his little girl was growing up and growing away from him. Jim admitted to Dylan a lot earlier than the Mexico fiasco that he didn't have anything against Dylan personally, he could have been anyone. Brandon also said something similar later on. Jim knew all about Dylan's past and acted if he was ok with it, until something went wrong and he threw it back in Dylan's face. If he'd wanted to protect Brenda, why did he agree to let her go to Baja in the first place? I don't think he held Brenda accountable much of the time either. And I do think Dylan obviously never had a parent who set any rules or boundaries, so I don't think he was meaning Brenda to be deliberately disobedient and encouraging her to break the rules. He just couldn't see what the problem was, especially as they wouldn't be doing anything that they weren't already doing in Beverly Hills. Brenda was living under Jim's roof so he could set any rules and boundaries he wanted, but it was up to her to follow them. What really pissed me off about Jim is that he was the adult. Dylan was, for all his living by himself and being an emancipated minor, still just 17 years old. Jim knew how troubled he was from his parents constant rejections and he knew how much it meant to Dylan to be a part of the Walsh family, yet he still turned on him. I'll admit there were several occassions where Dylan was out of control and I can see from a parent's perspective you wouldn't want your child around him at that point until he'd calmed down- his drinking when Iris first came back, after the fight at Mel and Jackie's wedding. But for the most part, why did Brenda need protecting from Dylan? And yes, I do agree he was sexist. I think he (and Cindy) were way too involved in Brenda's private relationship with Dylan and they never would have been with any of Brandon's.

Christina was supposed to love Jack so much. Why didn't she quietly disappear and follow him into oblivion? It didn't seem as if she knew he was alive at any time up until then. And since I'm ranting in general, I couldn't stand her perky self. Even if Jack was a horny bastard, what decent woman would agree to show up at her out for a weekend prisoner boyfriend's son's home for dinner and a sleepover?


Follow him when- in season three when he went into witness protection? You think her bosses lied to her that Jack was dead too?

Edited by Saz, Apr 13, 2012 @ 8:25 AM.

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#25449

Shangrilala

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Posted Apr 13, 2012 @ 10:58 AM

I think it was this whiplash relationship with Jim (one minute he's calling him "son" and the next minute he's banned from the Walsh house) that made Dylan so desperate to connect with his OWN family, even if it was Jack who he knew would burn him again or the Scamily who he had no reason to trust.


Actually I'm going to say something a little bit different. I think that the whiplash relationship with Jim was probably TOO reminiscent of his relationship with his own father (pre-jail), one minute there, one minute not, one minute screaming at him, one minute kicking him out of their home. Dylan in many ways even said that during the confrontation at the wedding and accused Jim of being worse than his own father. What an insult that must have been to Jim who prided himself on his morals, and abhored somebody like Jack McKay.

Sadly, I think Jim and Cindy made a lot of mistakes when it came to Dylan. A LOT. He was the trustee for his estate. He counseled him not just on money but on life, things like school, college, etc. They shared holidays with him. Even after the first bout of turmoil (Mexico), and then when he broke their daughter's heart, they opened their home to him when his father was "killed." After all that, to then yank back that welcome and love they displayed towards Dylan, from a teenager point of view, it is pretty cruel. He thought he was one of them. He called them the only family he had. If you're going to embrace somebody that wholly, that closely, especially somebody that you know is troubled and has had a world of hurt already handed to them before 16...you just have to handle things better when they make mistakes. You can't step over those boundries and then just yank all of that away and say "well you're not one of us, you're just our daughter's deadbeat ex-boyfriend, get out of our world." Even though LP was 30 years old when playing the role, Dylan was 16. 17. 18. 19. That's still a TEENAGER.
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#25450

Mommyof2Cuties

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Posted Apr 13, 2012 @ 11:35 AM

I wanted to add that Jack McKay saw Dylan as a possession. He had no interest in actually parenting him, being there for him in any way other financially but he expected Dylan to love him.

I totally agree with this. I think Bill Taylor saw Kelly as much the same way. If Jack or Bill had a little free time and showed the tiniest bit of interest in their child, they expected the child to receive them with a big smile. They never seemed to understand that parenting involves an actual relationship with your child, and is way more than just putting a roof over their head.

In Season 4, Kelly says that the maid used to make her tomato soup when she was home sick from school. I don't remember her ever mentioning a nanny. Then again, Jackie seemed to think she was a good parent while she was high. She told Kelly that the other mothers didn't do as much as she did during the fashion show episode. So maybe she thought they didn't need a nanny.

Re: Jack's back from the dead plot- I read an interview with one of the writers or executive producers, can't remember which, who said that scene where Jack blows up was deliberately shot to leave that option of bringing him back later.

I think I read the same article. I don't consider Jack being back from the dead as a retcon because of that. I think there were some weird holes during the original season 3 plot, but that's not unheard of on our show. ;)

did Bill provide for Kelly financially? Do you think Bill did want to see Kelly, but when it came to the time there was always something better to do? Otherwise why bother with contact at all?

Bill was sending child support checks. During the Spring Dance (I think), Steve says that he's never even met the man Kelly claimed to be her father, but it probably doesn't matter (to her) as long as the checks keep coming in. I think Bill was really immature, and like Jack, expected Kelly's love regardless of the minimal effort he put in to earn it.

I really like the points you made about Jim, Shangrilala. I also agree with Saz that Jim was more scared of losing Brenda than protective of her.
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#25451

Maxbird

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Posted Apr 13, 2012 @ 1:42 PM

Follow him when- in season three when he went into witness protection? You think her bosses lied to her that Jack was dead too?


I honestly don't recall. Did Christine give Dylan any indication she had known Jack was alive all that time? Does anyone know? I just thought since she told Dylan after Jack was killed I think that she would quite the FBI to be with him, that had she known he was alive she would have quietly resigned and disappeared after all the furor died down. Plot holes galore!

Good point on Bill Taylor. He stood up Kelly and broke her heart over and over for any lame reason but fully expected her to jump for joy once a year when he actually showed up for something. I thought he was just a neglectful jerk though that didn't want to be bothered with a kid. I thought Jack was plain evil, again, he supposedly hit Dylan, paid his mother to have nothing to do with him, used him to get out of prison, attempted to steal his money.

Dylan probably did see his relationship with Jim as akin to that with his father, as in "I will love you so long as you act exactly how I want you to act, otherwise, get the hell out." Jim did frequently treat him unfairly. It's too bad that Brenda was in the mix, had Dylan merely been Brandon's friend Jim probably could have been more rational when Dylan was off the rails rather than just blowing up. They actually had that in common, both blew a fuse rather than ever try to sit down and talk with Cindy or a neutral party there.
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#25452

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Posted Apr 13, 2012 @ 7:58 PM

Good point on Bill Taylor. He stood up Kelly and broke her heart over and over for any lame reason but fully expected her to jump for joy once a year when he actually showed up for something. I thought he was just a neglectful jerk though that didn't want to be bothered with a kid. I thought Jack was plain evil, again, he supposedly hit Dylan, paid his mother to have nothing to do with him, used him to get out of prison, attempted to steal his money.


And allowed one of his wives to tell Dylan that he was, "'persona non-grata' in his own house" Great father figure. OOOOH, but let's not forget, he can quote one of the most well known lines from one of the most well-known children's books ever written. A book that was around when Jack himself was a child. BUT the ability to quote that line not only proves he read to Dylan, but that he was a good father. Makes me roll my eyes, grit my teeth and seethe, every time.
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#25453

Maxbird

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Posted Apr 13, 2012 @ 8:30 PM

But Runner, he also promised to never let him drown and sang him Take Me Out to the Ballgame! I retract everything I said - Jack was father of the year/decade/century by golly!
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#25454

Runningwild

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Posted Apr 13, 2012 @ 8:40 PM

It's really hard to watch the episodes with Bruno and not see him as Elroy Nevins raping Margo on ATWT. Obviously, he's a good actor to go from creepy HIV-infected rapist to sweet bodyguard. But he still creeps me out.
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#25455

Runner123

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Posted Apr 13, 2012 @ 8:40 PM

But Runner, he also promised to never let him drown and sang him Take Me Out to the Ballgame! I retract everything I said - Jack was father of the year/decade/century by golly!


Riiight. Musn't forget that. :rolleyes: All of that, plus being able to quote a couple of lines from Green Eggs and Ham?!? Wow. Color me jealous. :)

Edited by Runner123, Apr 13, 2012 @ 8:42 PM.

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#25456

Saz

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Posted Apr 14, 2012 @ 7:53 AM

Hahaha you guys are killing me:D

I think you're right on, and I do think Dylan had been drinking. I think that's why he let his guard down so completely.

Mommyof2cuties, I forgot to say in my last post that I am glad I wasn't then only one who came to that conclusion :)

In Season 4, Kelly says that the maid used to make her tomato soup when she was home sick from school. I don't remember her ever mentioning a nanny. Then again, Jackie seemed to think she was a good parent while she was high. She told Kelly that the other mothers didn't do as much as she did during the fashion show episode. So maybe she thought they didn't need a nanny.


I guess that was it- Jackie was so out of it she thought she was a great parent, and it wasn't until she got clean she realised what a lousy parent she'd been. Interesting that to my memory none of them mentioned having had a nanny- Jack could certainly have afforded one, maybe Steve with his parents off working? David and Donna's parents seemed to have been around.

Bill was sending child support checks. During the Spring Dance (I think), Steve says that he's never even met the man Kelly claimed to be her father, but it probably doesn't matter (to her) as long as the checks keep coming in. I think Bill was really immature, and like Jack, expected Kelly's love regardless of the minimal effort he put in to earn it.


Thank you, I was sure I remembered it mentioned at some point, I just couldn't remember when. I guess it says something when Steve, who knew her all their lives, had never met her Dad.

I honestly don't recall. Did Christine give Dylan any indication she had known Jack was alive all that time? Does anyone know? I just thought since she told Dylan after Jack was killed I think that she would quit the FBI to be with him, that had she known he was alive she would have quietly resigned and disappeared after all the furor died down. Plot holes galore!


I am just so confused by Jack and Christine's relationship now! I just assumed their relationship was a sham from the start, and while she might have got to know Jack and liked him, her so-called grief was just an act to fool Dylan, and she knew Jack was alive all along. When Dylan went to see her in S10 before he got proof Jack was alive, my impression was that she definitely knew he was still alive but was still trying to keep up the pretence he wasn't. When Dylan went back and saw her after he'd seen Jack, she wasn't surprised to hear Jack was alive was she? Her and Dylan didn't even pretend this was news to her. And the fact that she was still working for the FBI, 7 years after she'd supposedly had what I would have thought would be a very-frowned-upon relationship with a convicted criminal? And the FBI were supposedly watching Jack to protect him before he went into witness protection but they don't pick up one of their agents is having an affair (for want of a better word) with him? Now I have more questions than answers ;)

I have to add, after re-watching the Thanksgiving episode today, I wanted to scream at Jack for his insensitivity when he arrives at Dylan's with the bottle of whiskey and asks "where's the ice?" How can he be serious?! Your son is a recovering alcoholic, your a guest in his house, he got you out of jail for the weekend, and the first thing you want to do is have a drink in front of him? And he mocks AA. Way to be supportive, Jack! And I think Christine telling off Dylan for talking to his father like that was out of line, though now I'm taking a different meaning from what she said. Though I have to also add that LP pulled some hilarious facials during this ep- checking Christine out from the hall when she first arrives, nearly walking into the doorframe after meeting her and then at the end, sliding in behind Kelly and Brenda in the hall and mimicking them talking :)

And allowed one of his wives to tell Dylan that he was, "'persona non-grata' in his own house"

Oh my heart broke when he told Brandon that, you could tell it had hurt him so much when his father did that. I assume this is when Dylan starting living at the hotel? Cause he had to be, what, 14 at this point and he'd have had nowhere else to go. So Jack, while doing a completely awful thing, at least didn't see him on the streets.

Edited by Saz, Apr 14, 2012 @ 8:42 AM.

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#25457

Mommyof2Cuties

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Posted Apr 14, 2012 @ 10:28 AM

I was in a hurry yesterday, but I wanted to add that I thought Jim wasn't protective of Brenda in the right instances. When he heard about Dylan's background, he still let Brenda date him. That was the ideal time to put his foot down. When Dylan very publicly fell off the wagon after Iris moved in, and it ended up involving Brandon to some extent, Jim didn't banish him outright like after Mexico. Even after they found out about the pregnancy scare, he didn't flip his lid and demand Dylan keep his distance for a while. Jim handled all of these things better than when he found his daughter laying on top of an injured Dylan and when his daughter chose to lie to him and sneak off to another country. It doesn't seem to me like he's protecting Brenda from Dylan because Brenda was the leader in those situations. I think he didn't like that his little girl was growing up and making choices that he didn't approve of. It was easier to blame Dylan than Brenda, so that's what he did. I also think if it was about protection, he would have also told Brandon to stop hanging out with Dylan just as much as he attempted to keep Brenda from him.

Though I have to also add that LP pulled some hilarious facials during this ep- checking Christine out from the hall when she first arrives, nearly walking into the doorframe after meeting her and then at the end, sliding in behind Kelly and Brenda in the hall and mimicking them talking :)

I loved those, too! :)

When Dylan went to see her in S10 before he got proof Jack was alive, my impression was that she definitely knew he was still alive but was still trying to keep up the pretence he wasn't. When Dylan went back and saw her after he'd seen Jack, she wasn't surprised to hear Jack was alive was she? Her and Dylan didn't even pretend this was news to her.

I definitely think Christine knew Jack was alive when Dylan came to see her with the news of the storage break in and the videotape of the news. She asked to see Dylan after that when people started talking about Jack, and she faked no surprise at Dylan being right about Jack really being alive. It's been a while since I've seen the episode, but I thought she says something like, "You may not agree with what I've done (basically admitting to the plan), but I was doing it to protect Jack. Can you honestly say you're doing the same thing?" Those aren't the correct words, but it went something like that (I think)! :) I love it when she tells Dylan that his father is in serious danger and Dylan tells her that it's a step up. Last time he was there, Jack was dead! :)

I think Christine and Jack probably had a real relationship, but not one where she was willing to give up her whole life to go into WPP for him. Christine had an older man sitting with her at Jack's funeral, so she probably had a family she wasn't willing to give up. Working for the FBI, she would know exactly what going into the WPP would entail. I think she meant it when she told Dylan that she loved Jack enough to let him go, and found a way to move on without him. I think Christine probably told her superiors that she was faking the involvement with Jack, but she was actually involved with him in secret.

All of Dylan's good memories of Jack seem to have come from the same time period before his mom left. It's funny that he doesn't have any good memories of Jack after he became his only parent. Instead it's all bad from there on out. Maybe without Iris there to show off to, Jack lost his motivation to parent.

I want to say that in the first Christmas episode when Dylan visits Jack in prison, Jack says something like Dylan's had to do everything on his own just like Jack did. And Dylan says something about how it's supposed to get better with the next generation. Maybe Jack was a crappy father partly because that's how his own father was. Not that it excuses things like letting your wife kick your child out of your own home, but abuse often repeats throughout generations.
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#25458

4Sibes

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Posted Apr 14, 2012 @ 11:37 AM

Regarding this weekend's skater episode, why did someone think that seeing Brandon chew gum with an open mouth would be attractive?
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#25459

Maxbird

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Posted Apr 14, 2012 @ 2:10 PM

I definitely think Christine knew Jack was alive when Dylan came to see her with the news of the storage break in and the videotape of the news. She asked to see Dylan after that when people started talking about Jack, and she faked no surprise at Dylan being right about Jack really being alive. It's been a while since I've seen the episode, but I thought she says something like, "You may not agree with what I've done (basically admitting to the plan), but I was doing it to protect Jack. Can you honestly say you're doing the same thing?" Those aren't the correct words, but it went something like that (I think)! :) I love it when she tells Dylan that his father is in serious danger and Dylan tells her that it's a step up. Last time he was there, Jack was dead! :)

I think Christine and Jack probably had a real relationship, but not one where she was willing to give up her whole life to go into WPP for him. Christine had an older man sitting with her at Jack's funeral, so she probably had a family she wasn't willing to give up. Working for the FBI, she would know exactly what going into the WPP would entail. I think she meant it when she told Dylan that she loved Jack enough to let him go, and found a way to move on without him. I think Christine probably told her superiors that she was faking the involvement with Jack, but she was actually involved with him in secret.



Thank you thank you! Sorry to quote this much but now some of that is coming back to me upon reading it and now it actually makes some sense (the Christine, WPP part, not the "hit" itself). Yes, perhaps it was a sham for them to be a couple at first but then she fell for him or something. It doesn't slow down my distaste for her for all the reasons above, that first weekend Jack was at Dylan's but it gels more than it did before. And yes, it would take an awful lot for anyone to go into WPP for anyone other than a spouse, child, someone you couldn't live without. And (don't snort) maybe Jack was for the first time attempting to protect Dylan by not asking him to come along and destroy his life. More likely he just didn't want to be bothered.

This show cracks me up - I'm on the big Greek weekend in PS where Donna gets shoved down the stairs. Hmm, for a big Greek conference, how is it okay for Brandon, David, Claire, Val to attend? I was waiting for Nat and the homeless guy to show up.

Amen on those ginormous wads of gum - yuck. Bad, but not as bad as these people eating fruit in bed.
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#25460

Runningwild

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Posted Apr 14, 2012 @ 2:53 PM

Ugh- The Pit and the Pendulum. Brandon at his most sanctimonious.
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#25461

jackiecarr

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Posted Apr 14, 2012 @ 8:33 PM

Rewatching the beginning of season 2 and I noticed that Donna in bikini tops already has the precursor of the cleavage cave. I guess it wasn't so much bad implants as body structure.

Also, the reuse of beach club establishing shots is as bad as early season 1 at West Bev.

Edited by jackiecarr, Apr 14, 2012 @ 8:43 PM.

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#25462

Anniecake

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Posted Apr 14, 2012 @ 8:42 PM

You guys are the best. Dylan's pain when he lost Toni. Christine and Jack's somewhat questionable relationship. Jim as a protective dad, or not? Jackie and Jack as horrible parents whose teenagers deserved their undivided attention after such a long and patient wait. An also once strung-out Bill Taylor as an absentee dad (but put on a pedestal by his daughter until she got to know more of him, unfortunately). And so much more. I'm enjoying catching up very much. With what I have read thus far I can't disagree with a single thing that has been said, but so much more to read.

By the way, and I'm not meaning to derail the conversation at all, but...is it weird that the first thing I want to do when I get in the door after being away is reading up on what I missed on this thread? The unopened mail, the thirsty plants and the empty fridge will just have to wait a little while longer...
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#25463

Mommyof2Cuties

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Posted Apr 15, 2012 @ 1:59 PM

This show cracks me up - I'm on the big Greek weekend in PS where Donna gets shoved down the stairs. Hmm, for a big Greek conference, how is it okay for Brandon, David, Claire, Val to attend? I was waiting for Nat and the homeless guy to show up.


LOL! :) I think Rush actually says something to Steve when he talks about inviting Brandon that he's not in the KEG house, but it obviously didn't make much difference. Special rules for the gang, just like high school! ;)

is it weird that the first thing I want to do when I get in the door after being away is reading up on what I missed on this thread?


I hope not! :) Even if it is, just slap on some extra eyeliner, put on your poncho, and hunker down if front of the computer with the rest of us!
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#25464

Maxbird

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Posted Apr 15, 2012 @ 3:24 PM

LOL! :) I think Rush actually says something to Steve when he talks about inviting Brandon that he's not in the KEG house, but it obviously didn't make much difference. Special rules for the gang, just like high school! ;)


Yeah, Rush did say something which made the rest of them, including Ray, being there even more nonsensical.

I think I just caught up with you SoapNet viewers and saw the Toni arc. Poor Dylan - it was nice to see him happy again for ten minutes. I wonder why Marchette didn't hunt down the incompetent hit man and kill him? What a great dad, speaking of great dads. Did he really think when Dylan's bullet ridden body was found Toni wouldn't suspect him and would rush home to his open arms? That whole thing was so moronic. Like somebody pointed out a few pages back, much later, when Dylan came back why didn't he know that Marchette was dead? It surely would have been big news, given that the guy was this huge mobster and Brandon knew the whole story and the rest of the gang knew a lot of it.

I check on this board first thing too a lot of times. It's usually good for a giggle while goofing off at lunchtime among other things. The discussions are always fun and best of all, nobody ever gets confrontational or disrespects anyone.
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#25465

desertflower

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Posted Apr 15, 2012 @ 4:18 PM

Re: Palm Springs weekend...Ray was a big jerk as usual, but I adored him when he complained about having to stay with "Steve and the village of drunken idiots" in the KEG place. Hee. Oh Ray, why'd you have to get all abusive and stuff?! I kind of liked you some of the time.
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#25466

jackiecarr

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Posted Apr 15, 2012 @ 7:04 PM

Still watching season 2. The cowboy costumed guy who tried to rape Kelly at the Halloween party asked if they had met in a past life.
Somewhat amusing in hindsight.
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#25467

4Sibes

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Posted Apr 15, 2012 @ 9:09 PM

I've wondered if they'd originally planned for Kyle to have more of a presence on the show. In my opinion, he wasn't in enough episodes for the fact he was gay to merit a mention. Of course, it's no longer the early 90's so I may not remember that this was groundbreaking or whatever.
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#25468

Saz

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Posted Apr 16, 2012 @ 6:41 AM

I was in a hurry yesterday, but I wanted to add that I thought Jim wasn't protective of Brenda in the right instances. When he heard about Dylan's background, he still let Brenda date him. That was the ideal time to put his foot down. When Dylan very publicly fell off the wagon after Iris moved in, and it ended up involving Brandon to some extent, Jim didn't banish him outright like after Mexico. Even after they found out about the pregnancy scare, he didn't flip his lid and demand Dylan keep his distance for a while. Jim handled all of these things better than when he found his daughter laying on top of an injured Dylan and when his daughter chose to lie to him and sneak off to another country. It doesn't seem to me like he's protecting Brenda from Dylan because Brenda was the leader in those situations. I think he didn't like that his little girl was growing up and making choices that he didn't approve of. It was easier to blame Dylan than Brenda, so that's what he did. I also think if it was about protection, he would have also told Brandon to stop hanging out with Dylan just as much as he attempted to keep Brenda from him.


I agree with all of this. I was going to say after the incident at the pool hall Brenda says to Dylan "my father doesn't think I should see you until you've sorted yourself out" and Dylan says "that's probably a good idea" but that is pretty much irrelevant- nothing more ever comes of it and Jim didn't ban her from seeing him. And yeah, he had a clear reason to protect both his children that time. Off-topic, but I find the scene where Dylan is beaten up so brutal, even though I know what to expect it's coming. What bugs me though is Falcone is really going for Dylan and at the end Brandon has to literally pick him up as he can hardly move- yet when they get back to Casa Walsh all Dylan has is a fat lip?! Unless he's taken some strong painkillers (possible I suppose as he's all cleaned up as well) his ribs/chest/stomach should be all bruised too and he would struggle to walk?
Back on topic ;) LOL to Jim finding Brenda on top of Dylan, who has several cracked ribs, and blaming him for taking advantage of his daughter! And why did he bring up the pregnancy scare later on; how was that Dylan's fault? They used protection. Yes I can see him freaked out at the time, but not something you can use as ammunition in an argument later on. Jim just seemed to do a complete 180 on their relationship, where he went from concerned father to completely over the top. It annoyed me that he pretended he was ok with things "I tried to keep an openmind about you and your lifestyle" yet if he actually had, then he wouldn't bring them up to throw in Dylan's face.

It's been a while since I've seen the episode, but I thought she says something like, "You may not agree with what I've done (basically admitting to the plan), but I was doing it to protect Jack. Can you honestly say you're doing the same thing?" Those aren't the correct words, but it went something like that (I think)! :) I love it when she tells Dylan that his father is in serious danger and Dylan tells her that it's a step up. Last time he was there, Jack was dead! :)


Ah yes that's right! I'm sure Christine knew all along Jack wasn't dead, she just knew it wasn't possible for her to join him in WPP. Does Dylan ever ask Jack why he didn't ask him to join him in WPP back in S3? Or mention it to Kelly, I don't think he did.

All of Dylan's good memories of Jack seem to have come from the same time period before his mom left. It's funny that he doesn't have any good memories of Jack after he became his only parent. Instead it's all bad from there on out. Maybe without Iris there to show off to, Jack lost his motivation to parent.


Maybe he liked the idea in theory but in practice he found it got old real quick? I figured that their relationship got worse over time, as if it was that bad for that long why wouldn't Dylan run away/find another relative to live with, etc? I just thought as Dylan got older his Dad would have found it harder to be a father when it takes more than a game of catch or 'Green Eggs and Ham' to have a relationship with your son.

I've wondered if they'd originally planned for Kyle to have more of a presence on the show. In my opinion, he wasn't in enough episodes for the fact he was gay to merit a mention. Of course, it's no longer the early 90's so I may not remember that this was groundbreaking or whatever.


I liked his character and I'm disappointed they never did more to develop that storyline. It's like they bought it up in the first episode he appears in and then it's never mentioned again in his two other appearances? Which were all like six months apart for some reason..and I find it a little strange that his and the last one, with the football game/shooting/Jordan Bonner episode he is basically a guest character and it's like he's never been on the show before!
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#25469

Runningwild

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Posted Apr 16, 2012 @ 10:57 AM

I liked Kyle, too. He was a cutie, too.
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#25470

desertflower

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Posted Apr 16, 2012 @ 11:25 AM

I had totally forgotten until recently that the guy who played Kyle also played Mayim Bialik's boyfriend in Blossom. IIRC he was supposed to be tough-guy Italian type.

And speaking of actors in other roles....someone upthread mentioned the guy who played Bruno was Margo's rapist in ATWT....I did not realize that was him! I was a big ATWT fan back then and I still remember that scene when Tom goes to inform the rapist that he is HIV positive and he gets a creepy grin and says "Yeah, I know!" Ew. Sorry, off topic!


Also, the reuse of beach club establishing shots is as bad as early season 1 at West Bev.


Haha, yes, I've noticed that. It's the type of thing they probably figured no one would ever notice at the time!
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