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#24991

Spencer84

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Posted Feb 23, 2012 @ 4:39 PM

I think Kelly didn't like Val at first, not because she could see right through her, but she was this gorgeous, seemingly lighthearted girl playing basketball with the guys in the backyard, and flirting with Steve, and having a good time. I think right away there was a jealousy factor, plain and simple.

That sums it up perfectly. We all know that Kelly was supposed to be the most popular girl at West Beverly and she loved being the center of attention. I think at the beginning Kelly also felt a bit threatened by Brenda. Maybe that's why she became friends with her immediately to keep her under control. Eventually Kelly "defeated" Brenda – with the latter being isolated from the gang and leaving the show shortly after.

Enter Valerie. Kelly probably sensed that she could not suck up to Valerie, because Valerie used that exact technique to secure herself a place within the gang. Kelly could not keep Valerie under control, and that's why she hated her from the get-go.

Kelly obviously didn't feel threatened by either Andrea or Donna.
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#24992

Lketoplay

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Posted Feb 23, 2012 @ 6:37 PM

Wanted to share with my fellow 90210 freaks:

I belong to a Facebook page called Opinionated Democrat.
She has been all over the whole birth control thing that the Republicans are in a twist about, and today she posted this as a status update:

"Opinionated Democrat
A tidbit of sex ed. advice from the character Donna Martin on Beverly Hills 90210:

“It’s like if you have a swimming pool in your backyard, you can tell your children not to go in it, you can even build a fence around it, but if you know that they’re going to find a way in to that water, don’t you think you ought to teach those kids how to swim?”

f-in brilliant."

I nearly died. She quoted Donna.
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#24993

Maxbird

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Posted Feb 23, 2012 @ 10:24 PM

Too funny on Tori/Donna quote. I did love Donna in the episode referred to though. I liked that even though she stayed celibate for a long time she was never preachy or judgmental about what her friends did, and was excited for them if they had a good experience. She acknowledged that she was in the minority and didn't feel the need to convert others or make snide comments, like when Brenda had the PG scare "well, one way to not get pregnant is ..."

I see both sides of the Val v. Kelly initial meeting(s). I don't think Val came there wanting to "steal Brenda's life" - I think that came over time as she failed to ingratiate herself with the gang. I still think she went after Dylan as much out of boredom with their lame idea of partying as anything else. For a really smart savvy girl she was ridiculous thinking a great way to be accepted was to date a couple of them simultaneously and lie to one, unlike Emily who had a "fuck you" attitude about the gang in general. And she did dis the Walshes (go outside to smoke your pot, idiot) and calling her friend to say how lame everybody was, but maybe she could suck some money out of them.

That said, I didn't find Kelly evil for saying that to Donna but you are absolutely right. She did lean in and deliver said info in a very gossipy way, and yes, motivation notwithstanding, she was obviously very jealous that everyone was fascinated with the new girl. At the bottom, I think the writers wanted to heat things up which is the reason that after the party they showed us Val smoking and smirking to her friend on the phone. Duh du DUH! Trouble on the way, folks. It would make more sense realistically if Val had been a bumbling socially inept dolt but she wasn't so it's odd she didn't play the game better at first. Cater to the girls, not date the boys. Kiss up to Jim and Cindy.

I admit Kelly and Dylan had some nice chemistry during those scenes when they first start flirting and hanging out. It seemed to happen kind of naturally and the show did a nice job showing how conflicted they were about it. Well, Kelly was conflicted at least, I'm not so sure about Dylan; it seems like Kelly was always the one bringing up Brenda


ITA - It was very very well done and generic. They were lonely and had a lot in common and a history. And much as Kelly is hated by so many people over this, she did at least feel bad and keep reminding him of Brenda and not sleep with him. To me he's the big stinker in all of this - when Brenda returned and Kelly really put the brakes on, he was "oh, okay, I'll just be with Brenda then since you won't have me". I didn't see him as torn, just weak and needy. And yes, it's too bad they made Reek so ultimately snoozey.
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#24994

Marie Claudine

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Posted Feb 24, 2012 @ 7:30 AM

I think Kelly didn't like Val at first, not because she could see right through her, but she was this gorgeous, seemingly lighthearted girl playing basketball with the guys in the backyard, and flirting with Steve, and having a good time. I think right away there was a jealousy factor, plain and simple.

ITA that Kelly gave a vibe of not liking Val from the get-go. I also agree that it would have made sense for Kelly to be jealous. Heck, if I were Kelly, I probably would have been a little jealous: Val was gorgeous! But while Kelly (like Val!) had a clear tendency of being jealous of Brenda, I didn't see her as jealous of Val, not when Val first appeared, and not afterwards.
In fact, aside from Kelly's bitchface (which she made a lot of the time anyway, whether Val was in the room or not) and Val being a stunner, the show didn't give us any hint of jealousy on Kelly's part. It would have made total sense, but they just didn't go that way. We saw Val being jealous of Kelly a lot over the years, but not really vice versa, although Kelly clearly disliked Val, and distrusted her, and was peeved when her friends let Val in time and again.

I never got the impression that Kelly felt threatened by Val in any way, at least until it became painfully obvious that Val was out to get her. At which point she would have been stupid not to feel threatened, but then she felt threatened in a way that was more "My God she is a scheming loon" than "My God she is more attractive than me".

I actually think that it's possible to meet someone and get a bad vibe from them; just like you have instant chemistry with some people, you have an instant lack of chemistry with others. I always thought that both Kelly and Val sort of instinctively disliked each other. Messed up as they both were, and alike as they were in many respects, maybe they did get a vibe of the flaws of the respective other right away.
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#24995

desertflower

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Posted Feb 24, 2012 @ 9:30 AM

I watched the Electric Slide to End Racism ep yesterday and Good Lord, did Donna look like a streetwalker in that outfit at the dance. We've talked before about how in the world Felice let her wear some of those things, but how about her real life pop approving those wardrobe choices?? I guess he did not make the call on every little aspect and just let wardrobe do their thing, but I still find it odd that they dressed the boss' daughter in the skimpiest clothes. I wonder how much say Tori had in that?

On a lighter note, Sue woo-hooing all by herself at David is still one of the funniest scenes the show has ever had.

And one more random observation about the summer/early senior year eps....I think Steve's hair is at its most egregious during that period. In the beginning it was just sort of curly and dorky, but by this time it has evolved into a fully formed mullet and looks like it is coated in some sort of product that, try as it might, still doesn't help its appearance at all. Sorry to pick on poor Ian's physical characteristic, but I'm still surprised it took them as long as it did to get him a flattering hair style. (It was like what, season 8 or 9 when they finally cut it?)

OK, I'm done with my petty nitpicks....I'm grateful for a community that allows me to vent about the fashion choices of fictional characters from 20 years ago! :)

Edited by desertflower, Feb 24, 2012 @ 9:30 AM.

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#24996

mysticrose

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Posted Feb 24, 2012 @ 9:47 AM

I love the SOD, and I HATE the SOD. I hate it for what it does to Brenda. But I love it because it's good TV. I totally see how Dylan and Kelly hook up and I actually do think they have chemistry there. Kelly had always had a thing for Dylan, and Dylan was tired of the drama associated with Brenda. They both should have stopped, and no one will ever be able to excuse either of their actions to me. I don't care how much they were attracted. They should have waited and ended things with Brenda properly, but I also don't think Dylan wanted to end things with Brenda. I don't think he stayed with her out of obligation. I think the last summer episode, when Brenda returns does an excellent job of portraying the fact that Dylan still loved Brenda. He was happy to see her. But he had also started something with Kelly that was hanging out there. Something new and exciting, and for me, that is when Dylan and Kelly were at their best, when it was new and exciting. I can't ever root for them because I think they were selfish--and neither was worse than the other, they were both terrible--but I am intrigued by them at the beginning.

It's the post SOD that I hate with a passion. I hate Kelly and Brenda waiting around for Dylan to make a choice. I hate how selfish Kelly is insisting Brenda know it all. I hate how hatefully Dylan tells Brenda about it. I hate how the gang doesn't pay any attention to Brenda and how she is hurting, and even has the nerve to ask her to host Kelly's birthday party. I hate how Kelly has the nerve to ask Brenda not to shut her out. I hate how selfish Kelly and Dylan are to flaunt everything in Brenda's face. Hate Hate Hate!!!

I don't start loving it again until college!
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#24997

Marie Claudine

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Posted Feb 24, 2012 @ 11:01 AM

It's the post SOD that I hate with a passion.

I'm right there with you, I agree with every word you said about that. While the SOD eppies are really, really good TV, the period post SOD is one of my least favorite times on the show, ever.

I don't care how much they were attracted. They should have waited and ended things with Brenda properly

I agree, but you know what's odd (and another reason to hate the post SOD)? I don't think this would have saved the character of Brenda. Sure, Brenda was hurt when she heard that they fooled around during the summer. But I do not really think she'd have been much less hurt if they had waited, Dylan had ended it with her properly, and gone for Kelly after. Brenda was really quick to forgive their cheating. It was her longing and pining that killed me, and I fear this wouldn't have been any different had they done the right thing. Brenda was mad for like two episodes after they finally fessed up, and that was after they fooled around AND lied to her for months. I get that she helped them with their various troubles, but was always surprised that she really still wanted to be their friend. After that, she wasn't mad. She was still miserable and unable to write Dylan off, and that was sad and boring to watch. I think it would have been better if the writers had written Brenda a lot stronger, or had given her a real grief/anger/revenge storyline.
*Puts on poncho and slinks off*
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#24998

Shangrilala

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Posted Feb 24, 2012 @ 12:04 PM

I sometimes forget the chemistry that Kelly and Dylan have during the SOD because for some reason, later, their chemistry just fizzles to me. But when they are messing around behind Brenda's back? That coupling is hot. Once they become a legitimate couple themselves and onward? I don't see any chemistry, and it's weird, because you know the actors can make it work.

I'm about to join the poncho corner because I like Brenda and Stuart.

There I said it. I also like Matt and Kelly, and think if they hadn't brought Dylan back that pairing worked great.
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#24999

callmebetty

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Posted Feb 24, 2012 @ 2:34 PM

Hi,
Longtime lurker first time poster on this forum.
I love reading everyone's comments.
I had to post because there is something I'm calling BS on. When Dylan takes the SAT and is accused of cheating because of his high score, he gives the reason he had such a high jump in his score from the previous time he took it was because he walked out half way through because of Brenda having the biopsy for her breast lump. That is BS, he never took it last time, I remember when everyone freaking out by taking it he said he was going surfing and he would take it next time. Brandon is the one who skipped it to be with Brenda and obviously rescheduled it.
I was sad to see the SOD begin and end, because that was the last time you would every see Kelly without a boyfriend/soul mate. See her every be truly happy, giddy and silly. After that she always has a puss on her face. I hate sad mopey Kelly staring so forlornly at Brenda and Dylan.
The first two seasons it was such a joy to see everyone having a good time, Brenda and Dylan really happy (except the minor blip of the pregnancy scare/Emily thing) I forgot about Steve and Andrea making out. Brandon and his revolving set of girlfriends every week.
I really started to lose interest once Shannon left the show, but I hung on for a couple more seasons, but never made it through the whole series and after watching a few of those later season episodes I'm glad I checked out.
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#25000

desertflower

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Posted Feb 24, 2012 @ 3:42 PM

I'm about to join the poncho corner because I like Brenda and Stuart.



I didn't mind Stuart at all; it was nice to see Brenda happy with someone other than Dylan. What I didn't like is how in one fell swoop they suddenly turn him into a jerk, and boom, they're done. And then immediately they have her back to pining for Dylan, telling him she never got over him when he gives her a ride home. Gah.

Hi callmebetty, welcome. You're totally right about the Dylan/SAT thing. At first I thought it was a nice callback to the breast lump scare, but then I couldn't remember him leaving early. And now that you mention it I think he even made a comment then about he was only going to take the test once, when he was a senior.

Agree with the love/hate of the SOD, the episodes are compelling but I also hate them a little because I know what's coming, and that it's the last we see of fun-loving Brenda except for a few scenes here and there in college. (Dancing with David, some laughs with Stuart.) But for the most part she becomes a sullen shell of herself.
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#25001

susieq147

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Posted Feb 24, 2012 @ 9:02 PM

I didn't mind Stuart at all; it was nice to see Brenda happy with someone other than Dylan. What I didn't like is how in one fell swoop they suddenly turn him into a jerk, and boom, they're done. And then immediately they have her back to pining for Dylan, telling him she never got over him when he gives her a ride home. Gah.


Looking back I wonder if the show initially thought the Brenda/Stuart pairing wouldn't work but IMO it actually did and the show clearly had their plan of Brenda moping about Dylan/Kelly. It seems like every time one of the characters hooked up with a non-core character and actually seemed happy they would pull the rug out from under them.

I also like Matt and Kelly, and think if they hadn't brought Dylan back that pairing worked great.

I didn't like that pairing (and I really liked the actor playing Matt so it was def the character) and I am not really glad she ended up with Dylan (well sorta ended up with). I think Kelly needed to be single for a while and move to the East Coast and then be unwillingly set up on a blind date and of course it's....Brandon.

When the show was on originally and it was the Brandon/Kelly/Dylan triangle I made the observation that IMO Dylan was the guy you dated but Brandon was the guy you married. Not necessarily those specific characters but who they represented. I think Kelly, while she enjoyed the passion and drama Dylan brought to her life (probably since seeing her mom live like that) I do think she ultimately wanted a stable "normal" family (like the Walshes).

On the new 90210 Kelly being a single mother to Dylan's son did NOT seem like what she wanted at all.
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#25002

Maxbird

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Posted Feb 24, 2012 @ 10:03 PM

I was sad to see the SOD begin and end, because that was the last time you would every see Kelly without a boyfriend/soul mate. See her every be truly happy, giddy and silly. After that she always has a puss on her face. I hate sad mopey Kelly staring so forlornly at Brenda and Dylan.
The first two seasons it was such a joy to see everyone having a good time, Brenda and Dylan really happy (except the minor blip of the pregnancy scare/Emily thing) I forgot about Steve and Andrea making out. Brandon and his revolving set of girlfriends every week.


Welcome former lurker. I couldn't agree more. Kelly was a delight when she was somewhat shallow but bouncy and fun, thinking a bubble bath and new dress would cure all ills (of course we then found out she had her own demons) but she was frequently happy, without the judgy bitch puss. Brenda was overly dramatic but basically an all American teenager, Donna was the goofy sidekick and everybody was actually having fun among the dramas.

I can't join y'all under the Stuart poncho - I hated the guy from the get go. First I suspected he would be weird and stalkery since he practically proposed on their first date. His bragging about his huge business successes was insufferable and of course it turned out he was just mooching off daddy. He totally lost me when he was demeaning the hard working supervisor at the job site as if he (Stuart) was royalty and that man was a poor little peon. UGH.

But I do agree, I wish Rick had been less boring or Brenda had found a wonderful exciting boyfriend, maybe somebody in theater or something, because it was horribly painful watching her pine after Dylan. Even if you didn't like Brenda (I did, but a lot of people didn't back in the day) you had to feel her pain and sense of betrayal. Of course, it was always in her face. I wish she had broken free of the gang and found some friends who shared her interests and been seen happy and dating. I don't know why she forgave them either. I didn't hate them for their summer flirtation that went to far - Brenda was doing the same thing - but I hated Dylan with every molecule in my body during the "confession" scene where he is just so dismissive and cruel. Kelly at least felt guilty and torn but Dylan was just angry that he was forced to face some consequences.
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#25003

callmebetty

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Posted Feb 24, 2012 @ 11:37 PM

Thanks for being so welcoming. I'm really enjoying this forum so much. I was a college freshman when this show started so it always brings back good memories.
I know a some people didn't like Kelly's short hair, but I actually loved her hair during the whole coke/Colin episodes, so much that I went and got a similar hair cut. Oh god does that make me Tara!! I did not dye it blonde though, does that help?
Actually speaking of that period, I did enjoy the continuity I noticed in the Electric slide for equality episode. When Kelly is at the Peach Pit moping about her dad blowing her off, she is talking to Dylan about how the last time he did that she called some guy and they got high in his pool house for three days. Well Kelly just wait three years you'll be doing it again and making out with some scuzzy guy while you're trying to score.

And what's up with the Walsh kids always dragging homeless people home for the holidays?
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#25004

Mommyof2Cuties

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Posted Feb 25, 2012 @ 11:14 AM

Welcome, callmebetty! :)

I never got the impression that Kelly felt threatened by Val in any way, at least until it became painfully obvious that Val was out to get her. At which point she would have been stupid not to feel threatened, but then she felt threatened in a way that was more "My God she is a scheming loon" than "My God she is more attractive than me".


I agree. And I agree that it would have made sense if they had written Kelly as threatened, just because she was used to the guys fawning over her and they all had moved on to Val at some point. But I didn't see Kelly as jealous of or threatened by Val at all in the gossiping situation. I saw Kelly as gossipy, which fit in with her character to a tee. She gossiped about Brenda and Dylan's break up to Steve when we know that she cared about both of them. She was gossipy with David about him having something going on with Nikki during the SOD, and Donna was one of her best friends. She gossiped to Dylan about Brenda and Roy Randolph and she didn't even believe the rumor. Kelly was just an incurable gossip, as she admitted to Ahndrea at the slumber party. :) When Brenda asked her if she could keep a secret (about Reeek), Kelly replied, "I think so." LOL... even Kelly knew there was a chance she'd spill before she even heard the news! I don't think her telling Donna about Val was an evil plot to get Donna to turn against Val ASAP. It was more a need to share the new information she had learned, gossip that she was.

I actually think that it's possible to meet someone and get a bad vibe from them; just like you have instant chemistry with some people, you have an instant lack of chemistry with others. I always thought that both Kelly and Val sort of instinctively disliked each other. Messed up as they both were, and alike as they were in many respects, maybe they did get a vibe of the flaws of the respective other right away.


I think so, too. And I sometimes think we're hard on Kelly because we forget that she didn't get to see Val's softer moments and struggles that we did as viewers. Kelly saw someone who consistently made trouble for her and the people she cared about. To be honest, I'd think less of Kelly if she hadn't started to fight back after being attacked that often. There's only so many times you can turn the other cheek without looking like a doormat (Donna!).

There I said it. I also like Matt and Kelly, and think if they hadn't brought Dylan back that pairing worked great.


I will spare everyone another Matt-rant, and say that if I watched Matt and Kelly with the TV on mute, I could get behind the pairing. Daniel Cosgrove is very cute. :) I think Dylan was destined to implode Kelly and Matt from the time he eyed Kelly over his cup on Thanksgiving. I don't know why it took until the second to the last episode of the show for it to happen, though.

I wish Brenda had retained her fun-loving personality after the SOD, too. In fact, I would have bought Dylan as wanting her back more if she had. It's a poor recommendation for Brenda that Dylan started leaning that way again because Kelly was irritating him rather than he missed Brenda. It would have been far better if Dylan had seen Brenda having fun living her life and realized he missed being involved with her. I hate the way the Season 4 writers made Dylan so wishy-washy. It started his character on a path I didn't like that I don't think he managed to get off until the last season. :(

While I don't think Stuart was a great character, I think it sucks that the guy Brenda supposedly loved enough to marry ended up a jerk and a meaningless blip in her life. We go round and round on here about Dylan loving Brenda or Kelly more, Kelly loving Dylan or Brandon more, even David with his Val and Donna relationships. Brandon had Emily and Kelly. Steve had Clare and Janet. Donna had David and Noah. Brenda had Dylan and ...? The only "great love" of her life cheated on her with her bff, married someone else, left her to return to another girl he loved, and ended the show pledging commitment to the girl he had left her for and cheated on her with way back when. You guys all know that my Brenda fandom is nothing compared to some of yours, but she really deserved more than that. Either Reeek (my preference) or Stuart should have been turned into an actual love story for Brenda.
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#25005

Marie Claudine

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Posted Feb 25, 2012 @ 12:28 PM

Hi and welcome around here, callmebetty!

I know a some people didn't like Kelly's short hair, but I actually loved her hair during the whole coke/Colin episodes, so much that I went and got a similar hair cut. Oh god does that make me Tara!!

Lol! And I agree, I loved that hairstyle, too, and I think she looks absolutely stunning at the party where she goes with Tara and Dr Almost after getting out of rehab. With that black dress and haircut and smile, that's when I buy that all the guys are into Kelly! And I have to say whenever it's not a flat-out mullet (Finley phase, anyone?), I just love Jennie Garth's hair. (Probably because it's the exact opposite of my own, and the grass is always greener...:-)).

Mommyof2Cuties, great post, I agree with every word in it. And I love how you describe Kelly as a gossip, if a harmless one - never thought about that, but it does fit her character incredibly well. And I've been always one to like a character with flaws. I also agree 100% with what you said about Brenda. It's so sad how she always thought she had found this great guy, and then he turned stale. And it's not even like her crushes were like Ray or Colin or Mark, who turned into major jerks who caused major drama. No, Reeek and Stuart turned ridiculous, which is so much worse for a TV character! Reeek had pretended to be a writer but ended up passionate about accounting (!) and more enamored with his great ideal Jim (yeah right) than with Mademoiselle Brin-dah; and Stuart suddenly was a whiny daddy-hater with allergies. They may have had these tendencies all along, but at the end of their stint on the show, they were just cartoon characters.
Except for when she picked Dylan, Brenda had an unfortunately tendency of crushing on ridiculous guys. I mean, Tim Matthews? Chris Suitor? And the worst stand-up comedian known to man?

He totally lost me when he was demeaning the hard working supervisor at the job site as if he (Stuart) was royalty and that man was a poor little peon. UGH.

Right there with you, Maxbird, that is my all-time most hated Stuart moment! And I was really disappointed in Brenda when she decided to interpret this condescending attitude as a sign of 'perspective' on his part. Gah.
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#25006

Bastet Esq

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Posted Feb 25, 2012 @ 2:35 PM

Brenda had Dylan and ...? The only "great love" of her life cheated on her with her bff, married someone else, left her to return to another girl he loved, and ended the show pledging commitment to the girl he had left her for and cheated on her with way back when.


But Brenda was barely an adult when she left, so the fact she even had two relationships she got that serious about is odd to me; had there been more at that age, I'd have really wondered about her. That the others were so into soulmate nonsense and settling down at a young age instead of having varied experiences and learning about themselves struck me as unusual (and, quite frankly, sad). Dylan was the love of her high school life, but I don't particularly think that should translate into anything more than that; what one wants at 16 and what one wants five and especially ten years later are generally very different things, so it's not often the same person fits the bill at all stages.

I wish Dylan and Stuart hadn't both turned out to be such jerks, because she did deserve better, but those are only two out of who-knows-how-many committed romantic relationships in her life. I imagine exposure to more of the world and new people and the opportunity to find her professional passion did Brenda a world of good, including in terms of evaluating romantic interests. On the whole, she probably wound up experiencing the average ratio of good to bad relationships -- some that make her wonder what she was thinking, some that run their natural course and end amicably, some that fulfill her for a good long while and maybe one that goes the distance.

Edited by Bastet Esq, Feb 25, 2012 @ 2:38 PM.

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#25007

Maxbird

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Posted Feb 25, 2012 @ 2:50 PM

.


Right there with you, Maxbird, that is my all-time most hated Stuart moment! And I was really disappointed in Brenda when she decided to interpret this condescending attitude as a sign of 'perspective' on his part. Gah.


It's maddening. I could have bought it if Stuart had worked his way to the top and had a right to be proud of making his mark on the world but he had done nothing. Daddy gave him a job, told him precisesly what to do and handed him money. Granted, daddy was an ass but it was so odd that Brenda didn't pick up that.

Yes, Brenda's loves just kind of fizzled - they weren't evil and exciting like Ray or Colin, or carrying secrets (Matt). They were just blah. Maybe there's truth to girls marrying their fathers. Donna's BF's except for the ones that stalked and killed her were pretty regular guys. And Kelly had a few nice dates, like the unethical Dr. Almost. Although the show wasn't so over the top soapy at that time, before Brenda left. I imagine if she'd hung around she too would have been stalked, bilked, chased down alleys, contracted weird diseases and comas. The only upside to Stuart was pining sad Brenda reverted to her happy self for a few episodes )-:
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#25008

SnowFox

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Posted Feb 25, 2012 @ 3:06 PM

I choose to believe Brenda was happy in London, had made new friends, made a nice life for herself, was enjoying herself, and that mopey moody Dylan didn't fit into that life when he showed up, and that's why Dylan came crawling back to Beverly Hills. Brenda grew, Dylan didn't.
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#25009

Mommyof2Cuties

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Posted Feb 25, 2012 @ 11:47 PM

No, Reeek and Stuart turned ridiculous, which is so much worse for a TV character! Reeek had pretended to be a writer but ended up passionate about accounting (!) and more enamored with his great ideal Jim (yeah right) than with Mademoiselle Brin-dah; and Stuart suddenly was a whiny daddy-hater with allergies. They may have had these tendencies all along, but at the end of their stint on the show, they were just cartoon characters.

Exactly! It was like the show refused to give her a love interest that challenged Brenda or changed her in some way. Instead they may as well have never been there at all because they added nothing positive or negative to her life in the grand scheme.

Bastet Esq, I agree with your post, especially as it pertains to real life. But on the show, it just seems like Brenda was the only one who didn't rate a real love after she lost out on Dylan. She was left to pine or hook up with Dylan, but she didn't really have anything satisfying that wasn't left to our imagination. I don't think she absolutely HAD to have a man to love in her life. If she had continued on the show with her passion for acting still ignited, that would have been fine. But it just seems like she lost her spark in Season 3 and she never really got it back before she left. Reeek or Stuart would have been an easy fix for that, and could have provided interesting storyline possibilities. Instead they added nothing but causing her to pine for Dylan harder than before.

I choose to believe Brenda was happy in London, had made new friends, made a nice life for herself, was enjoying herself, and that mopey moody Dylan didn't fit into that life when he showed up, and that's why Dylan came crawling back to Beverly Hills. Brenda grew, Dylan didn't.


I would too except that she was apparently available to be with Dylan romantically when he showed up for whatever period of time they were together. So there goes my theory that she found true love in London... at least at that time. :( I do give Dylan a pass on being mopey and moody when he showed up, though (if that's how it went down). Losing your dad and your wife to mob hits right in front of you less than five years apart is bound to make anyone miserable.

Maybe there's truth to girls marrying their fathers. Donna's BF's except for the ones that stalked and killed her were pretty regular guys. And Kelly had a few nice dates, like the unethical Dr. Almost.


I could see Donna in this scenario. Ray was the obvious exception, of course. :) I always cut David some slack on what he did because of his addictions and his untreated depression. He did some pretty skeevy things, but overall he was a nice guy with his heart in the right place.

Kelly, though, I think she tried to marry people that she thought were the opposite of Bill Taylor: dependable, trustworthy, commited, and loyal. Unfortunately for her, they weren't. I don't think Brandon was as bad as Matt in that department, but each time they were together for a good period of time (Seasons 5 and 8), Brandon managed to cheat on her. He also let her down after the fire, causing her to go to Dylan for support. And let's just say Matt was the opposite of those qualities she was looking for based on his ruining his law practice, unethical behavior, cheating, lying, and hiding a wife.

But this brings up something that bothers me about Kelly from time to time. When she has her big conversation with Dylan about a walk not getting them to engagement, she tells him that she can't imagine having him without imagining losing him to another woman, an addiction, or his lack of interest. And I understand the message, that she feels she can't fully count on him and is scared to make that leap and get hurt. But I think she's holding him accountable for other people's sins. He never left Kelly for another woman. He chose her over Brenda. Assuming that she knows nothing of the fishing trip, he only hooked up with Brenda after they had already broken up and as she immediately ran off to DC, I can't see how she would consider that a "loss." He married Toni, only after she had refused his trip around the world and his attempt to hook back up while she was with Colin. In all of Dylan's addictions on the show, he and Kelly weren't together so they didn't impact their romantic relationship directly. And while it's possible that she could have feared the possible damage that they could do to their life together, she had been an addict herself and had lived with a recovering one for years so she knew it was possible to get straight. It's not like she ever let his addictions stop her from being in his life, how much worse would it be as his girlfriend? She probably suffered more in her role as his friend than Gina did in her role as his girlfriend during his heroin addiction. And his lack of interest, well I'll give her that their trip around the world and dating life after he met the scamily DID suffer from that, but after that (while he was on the show), he maintained interest in her life and his place in it quite nicely. He helped her sort things out after the fire, helped her break free from the cult, talked to her about her grandpa's wishes, helped her through the rape, and talked to her about her future. I think it was fear that kept her away from Dylan more than his actual issues. She didn't want a Bill Taylor, but I don't think Dylan really was one. Maybe Dylan was more a Jackie Taylor! ;) I also think maybe she still harbored guilt from "stealing" him from Brenda and thought that she didn't deserve to end up with him happily ever after. Thus her tendency to put other guys through the wringer in her attempt to deny her feelings for Dylan.
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#25010

Marie Claudine

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Posted Feb 26, 2012 @ 5:06 AM

But this brings up something that bothers me about Kelly from time to time. When she has her big conversation with Dylan about a walk not getting them to engagement, she tells him that she can't imagine having him without imagining losing him to another woman, an addiction, or his lack of interest. And I understand the message, that she feels she can't fully count on him and is scared to make that leap and get hurt. But I think she's holding him accountable for other people's sins.

If you read it literally, you are totally right! I have to admit though that I entirely see Kelly's point. First, the guy took months to decide who he wanted to be with; and Kelly's whole story in the second half of S3 revolves around her insecurites about that. In S4, from Kelly's perspective, Dylan's ongoing affection, respect and regard for Brenda that at times exceeded his affection, respect and regard for his girlfriend, had a lot to do with their relationship deteriorating. S4 did a great job showing that Kelly felt left by Dylan long before the official break-up. For instance, when in the Maggie phase Dylan was so firmly in Brenda's corner he didn't even let Kelly finish the sentence that said that she would drop out! There are many other instances like that. And even in the beginning, when they are going to college, he treats her more like a nagging nuisance than a girlfriend; I think her stupidly going for John Sears had a lot to do with his dismissive attitude.

I also get that she is scared of losing him to an addiction. As the child of an addict, Kelly must know that there is no depending 100% on someone with an addicition, and Dylan's was still pretty recent at that time. He had relapsed before, both with alcohol and with drugs (although S10 chose to ignore the alcoholism :-)); of course she was scared that it would happen again! And she had seen first hand how abusive and aggressive he gets when he spirals downwards. When Kelly was an addict, she mostly tried to avoid her friends. When Dylan was one, he lashed out left and right. Yes, he helped her a lot. But he also hurt and dismissed her a lot. And his lack of interest, I get that, too. Like in Paris, when he got bad news and totally shut down on her. S4, when he showed most clearly that he didn't give a rats ass about what she had to say. Then he made a big declaration about being her soulmate, and, when she said know, had a new soulmate only months after. He can't be blamed for moving on, but she can be understood for thinking him fickle. And the constant dating of girls who outright hated her and bitched about her 24/7 (Gina, Val) also shows very limited regard.

So while Dylan's motives are often understandable to me, too, I understand Kelly when she says that, and am with her 100%. I also think Dylan brought that onto himself entirely, he didn't need Matt's or Brandon's sins to get into that pickle. I will say that he was a better, possibly even safer, boyfriend than Matt, but certainly not better than Brandon. Even cheating, I think Brandon was more dependable and safe for Kelly than Dylan. Thinking of the odds, a former coke addict with a former addicted-to-everything addict, that's not a recipe for happily ever after! When Brandon screwed up, it was because he wasn't honest with her, but even though he lost the ability to apologize along the line, he did try to fix his screw-ups afterwards. Dylan didn't, really. He just expected to be forgiven. He also wasn't afraid to hurt her straight out, and he pretty much never apologized either - it wasn't his thing. And if we think Brandon yelling in Susan's face was abusive, than so was the way Dylan yelled at Kelly sometimes, or looked at her without a trace of warmth. Honestly, I would have been afraid to go for the guy, too.
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#25011

SnowFox

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Posted Feb 26, 2012 @ 9:11 AM

I would too except that she was apparently available to be with Dylan romantically when he showed up for whatever period of time they were together. So there goes my theory that she found true love in London... at least at that time.

Dylan was the one who sought Brenda out, and at that time they were still in the early 20s. Brenda could have easily been caught up in the romance of Dylan coming to see her, and then cooled later on when she realized Dylan had not only not grown, but had regressed. What stands out to me is that Brenda made a life for herself, even after she and Dylan broke up in London, Brenda continued on with the life she made there doing well while Dylan was still at loose ends. There's nothing to say Brenda didn't find someone else. She certainly didn't chase Dylan back to Beverly Hills wanting to get back together.

Edited by SnowFox, Feb 26, 2012 @ 1:23 PM.

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#25012

Maxbird

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Posted Feb 26, 2012 @ 3:56 PM

Jeesh stupid retcons. I'm watching the one where Brando goes to San Fran and finds Emily. This would be fine, he started thinking about her when he saw that girl, but he hadn't initially driven that way to find her. I'll even buy that he starts falling for her now that she's sane. Then he calls home and Cindy and Jim discuss wacky Em and Brenda says "people can change". Okay still fine but Cindy says "Oh, I hope so - she broke his heart last time".

Cindy, when exactly did said heartbreak occur? He never seemed in love with her and promptly dumped her after the U4EA incident and seemed disappointed in her but not as if he was losing a love. He felt sorry for her when she totally freaked out and got sent to the loony bin but he wasn't sitting pining of a lost love. I fail to see the point of the retcon. He could have merely found an old flame, realized he was falling for her and so on. Why even bother to try to convince us she was once the love of his life? Stupid retcons.
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#25013

desertflower

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Posted Feb 26, 2012 @ 4:50 PM

Yeah, I think they fumbled the Emily storyline. Brandon broke up with her after she slipped him the U4EA without batting an eye (and I don't really blame him.) Then he shows some kindness to her at Christmas when he goes to visit. But later (don't remember when) he's talking with Bren about his love life and says "The longest relationship I've had was with that psychopath Emily Valentine!" Nice. Then we don't hear another word about her until the San Fran stuff. Or am I forgetting another moment? I remember once she had the really awful hair and then the other time it wasn't so bad, so we saw her two more times?

Anyway, I actually don't mind that they brought her back, it was rare that they revisited a character from the early seasons, most of them just vanished without a word. SHe kind of did, too, at first. When he visits her in the psych place she make references to coming back to school, but that never happened. But anyway, if they were going to bring her back they could've built up to it a little more, maybe had Brandon actually mention her fondly once in a while. You know that story actually would've worked better with the ice-skater, because he mentioned once that she was probably the most special of his many girlfriends. If only Jason was dating Gabrielle Anwar in real life, then she could've come back instead!

Edited by desertflower, Feb 26, 2012 @ 4:51 PM.

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#25014

Marie Claudine

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Posted Feb 26, 2012 @ 5:45 PM

But later (don't remember when) he's talking with Bren about his love life and says "The longest relationship I've had was with that psychopath Emily Valentine!" Nice.

So true. That's actually when they talk about Stuart, I think, so rather briefly before he goes to see her in SF. And then a few eppies later, it's suddenly this epic love. Retcon indeed.
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#25015

Maxbird

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Posted Feb 26, 2012 @ 6:24 PM

Yes, I think that's why it jumped out at me this time because I've just had the vids in the thing on and off all weekend, and it truly was just a couple episodes before when he was talking to Bren about Stuart and mentioned Emily the Psycho. I'm not even sure what the point was because it was quite a long time after that when she blew into town for a couple days and he was lying to Kelly (who was in the hospital) and sneaking to see Em. Unless they actually planned around her schedule that far ahead and the San Fran was a setup for later. I can buy a retcon of things that happened offscreen but we saw the whole Emily Saga from start to nuthouse. Just like a prior poster noticed, Dylan did NOT walk out on the SATS - He took them the first and only time when he was off somewhere seeing Jack.
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#25016

Jen1n

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Posted Feb 27, 2012 @ 3:13 PM

it truly was just a couple episodes before when he was talking to Bren about Stuart and mentioned Emily the Psycho.


I always thought this was ridiculous too. He was badmouthing her, then 2 episodes later he's on a mission to find her. And, before you know it, he's asking her which one of them is going to transfer colleges so they can be together. Made no sense to me.

Yes, I understand he felt he was under pressure and had to get away from Lucinda, her creepy husband and the D'Shawn blackmail threat, but the Emily thing was just so random.

I would have preferred he had stayed camping with Curtis and his family- they seemed like good people. :)
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#25017

fuzzybear

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Posted Feb 27, 2012 @ 8:04 PM

Jeesh stupid retcons. I'm watching the one where Brando goes to San Fran and finds Emily. This would be fine, he started thinking about her when he saw that girl, but he hadn't initially driven that way to find her. I'll even buy that he starts falling for her now that she's sane. Then he calls home and Cindy and Jim discuss wacky Em and Brenda says "people can change". Okay still fine but Cindy says "Oh, I hope so - she broke his heart last time".

Cindy, when exactly did said heartbreak occur? He never seemed in love with her and promptly dumped her after the U4EA incident and seemed disappointed in her but not as if he was losing a love. He felt sorry for her when she totally freaked out and got sent to the loony bin but he wasn't sitting pining of a lost love. I fail to see the point of the retcon. He could have merely found an old flame, realized he was falling for her and so on. Why even bother to try to convince us she was once the love of his life? Stupid retcons.


Yeah, I know the rumor is that JP was dating the actress so that may have had a lot to do with it, but Emily left Brandon heartbroken? I don't think so. Even Nikki would have made more sense since Brandon seemed really into her and pretty upset about the way things went down with her ex-boyfriend and her leaving to go back home. For some reason I always felt that was the relationship of Brandon's with unresolved issues that they could have revisited. Come to think of it she lived in San Francisco too and wasn't Susan's family from the Bay Area? Big town for Brandon's exs.

But this brings up something that bothers me about Kelly from time to time. When she has her big conversation with Dylan about a walk not getting them to engagement, she tells him that she can't imagine having him without imagining losing him to another woman, an addiction, or his lack of interest. And I understand the message, that she feels she can't fully count on him and is scared to make that leap and get hurt. But I think she's holding him accountable for other people's sins.


I thought that was more about how their relationship was always about the chase or all the things keeping them apart, not about how happy they were together. They were always great at the star-crossed lovers part, but never found a good rhythm when they are together. It's not that surprising when you consider both Dylan's and Kelly's upbringings. They were both kids who grew up around a ton of drama so its not surprising that they both thrived in chaos. I think they had that in common and really brought that out in each other, so when it was all Dylan being a junkie, or Dylan screwing with Kelly's latest relationship, or Kelly butting in and often starting feuds with Dylan's latest girlfriend, or giving each other longing secret looks across a room, or whatever self destructive way they could find to say "I love you", they were great because that's what they both grew up with and that's what felt natural to them. But when it came down to being a normal everyday couple with normal everyday stuff they weren't so good because they didn't actually have a ton in common besides mutually messed up childhoods. I don't blame Kelly for feeling like they would always fall apart because they really did not know how to be together, just how to want to be together.
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#25018

Mommyof2Cuties

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Posted Feb 27, 2012 @ 8:36 PM

So while Dylan's motives are often understandable to me, too, I understand Kelly when she says that, and am with her 100%. I also think Dylan brought that onto himself entirely, he didn't need Matt's or Brandon's sins to get into that pickle. I will say that he was a better, possibly even safer, boyfriend than Matt, but certainly not better than Brandon.


I definitely see your point, but most of the stuff Dylan did "wrong" to Kelly was from Season 4. It just seems like he was a completely different person towards Kelly after that year. He was rude when he found out about her and Brandon, but he seemed to direct most of his anger toward Brandon rather than her. And it was Kelly who came to his house in the middle of the night, supposedly to apologize to him. He didn't seek her out to fight with her some more. And then after that, he was able to get past his anger and be there for her after the fire and during her cult phase. He is very sweet with her when she visits him in rehab. I never got the impression that he didn't care about her feelings, other than in Season 4. Not even when they have their marriage confrontation about Toni outside the Peach Pit. After his sarcastic, "I'm sorry, Kelly," he mellows out and lets her vent her feelings.

I think Brandon was often dismissive of Kelly's feelings. He forced her to accept Val and worse than that, allowed her to live with them as a couple. Kelly always had to come around to his way of thinking in all their disagreements (porn shop, adopting the baby, etc.). I especially don't like the way he shot down her wanting to be a parent. He was nearly perfect when they found out that Kelly was pregnant, I'm not sure where his understanding went when she wanted to jump at the opportunity to adopt this baby that had fallen into her lap. Not that he should have jumped into it while he wasn't ready, but I think he could have talked it out with her and saw her point as a woman who wasn't completely sure she could get pregnant. Instead it was just, you're wrong. I'm right. She got there by herself when she saw how homophobic the mother was acting.

I just think that Dylan had really changed by the time she had said this to him. He had really turned his life around and was able to apologize and communicate and all the other stuff she was looking for. It was like she expected Dylan to fail because she had failed with stable Brandon and was failing with "steady" Matt. If she had just argued on the addiction thing, that would be a fault of Dylan's and I could understand her fear for him, and for herself as a recovering addict. But my heart just breaks for him in that scene where she's saying that stuff, and he says, "You already said 'no' to me once. I don't need to hear it again." Because I truly believe her hang ups with Dylan have much, much more to do with her and her demons than Dylan's demons.

Yeah, I never got the retconned love for Emily either. I just bought into it because by the time the fire happened, Emily clearly meant something to Brandon. I'm just not sure how she went from psycho to lost love the year before. Maybe that spicy food of Lucinda's had those psychadellic mushrooms in them or something and Brandon imagined this great love!

"Home and Away" has got to be the best episode ever! I even like Gil (for a second or two) in this episode. Which is promptly ruined in the Sue Scanlon episode. I did like the foreshadowing of Dylan running away to the cougar... I mean horse... ranch after the SAT thing, though when he's talking with Gil. And why do I always forget that Donna is older than Dylan? That double junior year thing messes with my mind sometimes.
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#25019

Bastet Esq

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Posted Feb 27, 2012 @ 11:26 PM

Even Nikki would have made more sense since Brandon seemed really into her and pretty upset about the way things went down with her ex-boyfriend and her leaving to go back home. For some reason I always felt that was the relationship of Brandon's with unresolved issues that they could have revisited.


Nikki was the pinched-nosed twit played by the girl from National Lampoon's Vacation, right? I could not stand her! Emily Valentine was a nutjob, but Christine Elise had a presence that kept me interested even if I didn't buy the great lost love theory (and weren't there horrible bangs involved upon her return?). Nikki just made me want to practice my left hook; she was like an annoying younger sibling following Brandon around.

Edited by Bastet Esq, Feb 27, 2012 @ 11:27 PM.

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#25020

Marie Claudine

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Posted Feb 28, 2012 @ 7:16 AM

I think Brandon was often dismissive of Kelly's feelings. He forced her to accept Val and worse than that, allowed her to live with them as a couple. Kelly always had to come around to his way of thinking in all their disagreements (porn shop, adopting the baby, etc.). I especially don't like the way he shot down her wanting to be a parent.

I do agree that Brandon often came across as Mr Know-It-All, which does annoy me. However, he shared that particular character trait with Kelly. I also do not blame him for his reaction about the adoption. He was in Kelly's life; he had made it perfectly clear that he wanted a family with her one day, and that if she couldn't have kids, he would still want to be with her. That is a big commitment, and the least Kelly could have done is include him on a decision as big as an adoption, and respect it if he wasn't ready. I also don't like her weird homophobic vibe in that episode. Also, I get Brandon's point: What Kelly wanted to do was not in the child's best interest. So while his attitude could have been a bit different, his actions were not wrong. As for who came out "right" after their disagreements, I think it varied. The porn shop thing for instance ended on a compromise, same as with Val and David. When it came to her decision to have an abortion, it was her call. In the adoption storyline, they went his way. I didn't see him as imposing his decisions on her. For me, Matt was the one who did that.

As for being dismissive, I think Dylan takes the cake, and not just in S4. Brandon let Val, his childhood friend, stay in the house. Dylan maintained a relationship with Gina, who hated Kelly and badmouthed her left and right. Brandon always tried to make peace between Val and Kelly. Dylan never tried to stop Gina from hurting Kelly. He didn't give a damn. "You won't date me yet? Ok! Meanwhile, I'll sleep with your worst enemy! But don't worry, she's just a bed buddy, and cheating on her with you is fine." To me, that's a lot worse than letting Val stay.

I also think that while Dylan's hostile behavior towards Kelly was back in S4, it would still worry me, because that's when they were a couple! Plus, afterwards he relapsed twice and dated Val and Gina who actively tried to hurt Kelly. I see why this would worry her. I wouldn't trust a man who falls back into addictions every other year and spends all of his free time with a woman who loves to hurt my feelings and doesn't hide that from him! And finally, she saw first-hand how he treated Gina; how he had treated Val; how he had treated Brenda. Yes, she was someone else, but she also knew that he had broken promises before, and in her shoes, I would worry that he'd do the same to me - especially if he has already done it in the past. Dylan changed a lot in S9 and 10, but he was still only a year away from his last addiction, and he had changed (and changed back) before, so it made sense that Kelly would be careful.

I think the problem with Dylan and Kelly was that they were very, very attracted to each other ever since the SOD. But even though they tried to be friends to each other again and again, and sometimes did a great job, like in the instances you mentioned, Mommy, they also sometimes showed each other a surprising lack of care.

And why do I always forget that Donna is older than Dylan?

Because she looks ten years younger? :-)
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