Jump to content

Beverly Hills 90210


  • Please log in to reply

30197 replies to this topic

#24961

Mommyof2Cuties

Mommyof2Cuties

    Couch Potato

Posted Feb 20, 2012 @ 11:15 AM

Now if you're Andrea Zuckerman...no, you stay to build sandcastles.


Sad, but true. Maybe that's why Brandon took Susan's leaving so hard. Andrea had already taught him that smart, driven women give up their opportunities at every turn. :(

I like that they brought back Munz for a few episodes (his wedding, the dance-a-thon, David's bachelor party/wedding). I thought that was realistic for someone who was on the fringes of the gang for a few years, but was never really in the gang.

Hiding under the poncho while I say this, but... I don't think it was a big deal Brenda wasn't heard about/from in the years she was absent from the show. The same was done with Dylan during the years he was gone and the same was done with Brandon after he left. The show didn't treat the people who had left them in the dust kindly. Andrea was the exception because Gabrielle didn't cut ties. She liked coming back from time to time to do storylines, so we saw her. But we still didn't hear about her offscreen exploits. I would have enjoyed a scene of Kelly and Donna sitting around talking about how Andrea had graduated from Yale and was in med school or Hannah was starting preschool or whatever, but the show probably didn't have time to do a sweet, sentimental scene like that between all the stalkings, drive-by shootings, etc. I think Brenda was probably referred to the most after she left (She's not coming back, Dylan's message, Val wanting her life, Dylan living with her, Corisca, etc.). If anyone got the shaft, I feel like it was Brandon. He was gone a year and a half, and there was no mention during Steve's wedding, or Maddy's birth, or Kelly's rape, or Dylan's drug addiction. Now I can fanwank that, and I have before, but I do think that was worse than not mentioning Brenda who had been gone for 6 years.
  • 0

#24962

Spencer84

Spencer84

    Channel Surfer

Posted Feb 20, 2012 @ 12:00 PM

Oh, I don't know. I think Brandon came off looking much worse than Susan during that breakup to be honest.

That's true, I felt the same way. But I was rather talking about the way the gang saw things, not necessarily how the viewers perceived them. Writers usually try to influence the audience by establishing some sort of moral code that some characters stick to and some characters obviously do not, but the outcome might of course be slightly different because everyone has a different view on moral codes.

From the writers' perspective, Brandon, Kelly & Co. were always presented as being the good guys who only made right decisions and it was never their fault when something bad happened. No, they were most of the times even praised for their stupid behavior. The only character who was allowed to make mistakes and had to pay for them was Val. However, she of course was the antagonist and therefore, based on the show's moral code, deserved to be hurt. But that is what made Val such an interesting character. Gina on the other hand never really had to pay for her mistakes which is why she failed as an antagonist.
  • 0

#24963

desertflower

desertflower

    Fanatic

Posted Feb 20, 2012 @ 12:53 PM

What I've always found interesting about Val is that she and Brenda were supposedly so close, but I'm not sure I buy, for one second, that Brenda would have put up with Val and some of her scheming.


Maybe when they were friends Val wasn't as bad yet. I always got the impression that they were friends when they were little, not necessarily right before the Walshes moved. Like didn't Val's family move away from MN to Buffalo before the Walshes moved to CA? I can't remember the story there. But maybe she hadn't learned her scheming ways yet. :) It would've been interesting to see Brenda and Val interact, and I agree she wouldn't have put up with much from her. I'm reminded of the girl who was after Steve's money and Brenda let her know she was onto her.

I could see after Brandon left where they could fully phase her out, but while Brandon was there, her 99% non-existence was baffling to me.



I think that is what bothers me too. I understand that SD left on not-so-good terms, so of course she's not going to make a bunch of appearances. And I also understand that they didn't want to keep bringing Brenda up because they wanted people to connect with the Val character and just move on. But still, a part of me would've really loved it if the writers honored the Brandon/Brenda relationship that we saw early in the series. I know they had a few lines about her here and there but I never got the impression Brandon missed her at all. I think maybe a scene of him acknowledging he missed her and maybe mentioning the talks they used to share, etc, would've been a nice nod to the show's history. But unfortunately, Brandon and Brenda's relationship seemed to deteriorate the last year she was there. I don't know if that was real-life tension between them or just bad writing or what. But they just didn't seem that close anymore and that vibe carried on after she left.

I seem to remember reading that Shannen was actually willing to come back for the finale but they said no? Is that correct?
  • 0

#24964

oxymoron417

oxymoron417

    Couch Potato

Posted Feb 20, 2012 @ 1:28 PM

Has anyone ever seen or read an interview with Lindsay Price about her experiences on the 90210 set? I wonder if JG and TS were also hostile towards her, or if she wasn't worth being attacked because of her background status. It is however striking that Janet never became that close to Kelly and Donna. I think the only scene were Kelly and Janet were really close was when Janet was telling Kelly about her pregnancy. But that's about it.


I haven't, but I did read/hear that Emma Caulfield too had a less than stellar experience. She said "the girls on that show..." during a panel, but clarified that TS was NOT one of the mean girls to her. She stated both Jason and Tori were great. I'm guessing she's also referring to JG then. Damn. You have to wonder after hearing so many things from numerous people i.e. VM and EC why SD was given such a hard time when it was obvious there was some other stuff going on BTS.
  • 0

#24965

Shangrilala

Shangrilala

    Couch Potato

Posted Feb 20, 2012 @ 1:58 PM

I know they had a few lines about her here and there but I never got the impression Brandon missed her at all. I think maybe a scene of him acknowledging he missed her and maybe mentioning the talks they used to share, etc, would've been a nice nod to the show's history.


There is one scene, shortly after Dylan leaves, where Brandon is talking to Susan, and he says something along the lines of how he feels lonely. First he had to say goodbye to Brenda, then his parents, now his best friend. Susan says that for what it's worth, he's not alone, he has her. It was a really nice moment between the two of them. But that was the only time Brandon referenced missing his sister. All the other times were just very matter of fact - Brenda has mono, Brenda is staying in London, etc. Also in that show was the very end, where Brandon had finished his editorial about Dylan or some such thing? And Susan told him to save a copy of it for him, maybe Dylan would be able to read it some day. Or some such thing. Anyway, there were a couple of nice Susan moments in that episode.

ETA: I also agree with posters who have said that there was tension there. But while Brandon and Brenda's relationship was clearly strained by the end of season 4, I don't think it was damaged beyond repair. So yeah, I just don't buy the lack of Brenda references on the part of Brenda. I mean, even the Walsh parents never mentioned her. There was no - Brandon, you missed a call from Brenda this evening or anything. They went to see her for Christmas in season 5, and Kelly once picked up an international call thinking it was Brenda and it was Emily. I mean, even Dylan had more Brenda thoughts in 2 episodes than Brandon did all season - his getting the message from overseas, hearing the voicemail from Brandon about her staying, his clearly being upset that she wasn't coming back, and then denying that she meant much to him. There was more depth there that they ever gave to the Walsh clan.

Edited by Shangrilala, Feb 20, 2012 @ 2:24 PM.

  • 0

#24966

Scorpiosrule

Scorpiosrule

    Stalker

Posted Feb 20, 2012 @ 4:40 PM

You have to wonder after hearing so many things from numerous people i.e. VM and EC why SD was given such a hard time when it was obvious there was some other stuff going on BTS.


I think I read somewhere, or maybe saw, that a lot of resentment toward Shannen was because she wouldn't show up for rehearsal, and it turned out that she didn't need that much rehearsal time because she had a photographic memory?

Or am I misremembering? I think we talked about it here.

Either way, I had a problem with Val's return in the finale and everyone being besties; just because one makes peace with one's nemesis (and I'm basing this on what I've read here about how Val "made up" with Kelly, et al.), doesn't mean you're all friends now.

The fact that Donna forgave Val for all that shit she pulled with Ray, when Donna hadn't done anything to Val, is just...inconceivable to me. But then, I had a similar thing happen to me so maybe my real life experience is coloring my judgment/causing bias. I dunno.

I didn't see when Val left; I did tune in for the finale and remember hating it. Everyone didn't have to be happy hunky dory just because the show was ending. The last minute of Matt telling Kelly she belonged with Dylan, and all the other stuff, which I've blanked out; the rolling of the eyes of the vows, considering the messed up history between David and Donna, with the cheating, and stealing of money, etc....and of course, the lack of Brenda. I really couldn't.
  • 0

#24967

Marie Claudine

Marie Claudine

    Fanatic

Posted Feb 20, 2012 @ 5:33 PM

I think I read somewhere, or maybe saw, that a lot of resentment toward Shannen was because she wouldn't show up for rehearsal, and it turned out that she didn't need that much rehearsal time because she had a photographic memory?

Yes, I once saw an interview with Joe E. Tata where he said that some of the others, particularly Luke, got frustrated with her because she'd learn her lines at home, rehearse them briefly and go for it; she apparently didn't like too much rehearsal. But some of the others had other approaches to acting, and it seems she didn't really care about that. I think they resented not the fact that she was so awesome but the fact that they couldn't do their best in their scenes with her because she didn't feel like putting in the rehearsal time to accommodate them.

That said, while I repeat this gossip, I never really know what to make of it. When I hear all these stories about SD's alleged antics, and JG's alleged meanness, and TS snogging co-stars and then getting them to stay and all, it just seems so much like average magazine talk. I mean, of course, many people said that JG was bitchy, and many said that SD was impossible. But there are also many people (insiders or "friends" of the celebs in question) who have been saying that Brad and Angelina and Tom and Katie are breaking up, like, right now, and look what happens: nothing. So while I repeat it I hesitate to give too much credit to gossip from twenty years ago... :-).

Matt telling Kelly she belonged with Dylan

I did not like that either. Matt tried to keep Kelly away from Dylan against his own better judgement for nearly two years. It made next to no sense that suddenly he'd be so understanding. I could have lived with Matt slinking away miserable and mad. It would have made more sense than his sudden forgiving glow.
  • 0

#24968

jackiecarr

jackiecarr

    Stalker

Posted Feb 20, 2012 @ 6:04 PM

The fact that Donna forgave Val for all that shit she pulled with Ray, when Donna hadn't done anything to Val, is just...inconceivable to me. But then, I had a similar thing happen to me so maybe my real life experience is coloring my judgment/causing bias. I dunno.

Eh, Ray was no prize. In retrospect, Val kind of did Donna a favor.

I always hated that the show had to redeem Ray in the end, with the gang going to hang out with him and his fiance. I mean maybe have him go to therapy and offer a sincere apology, but just having them be all buddy-buddy with him came off very WTF?

I read some interview with Jamie Walters saying that he had gotten all this hate mail or whatever for Ray abusing Donna, so maybe the producers were trying to help him out a bit so people would watch "The Heights".
  • 0

#24969

Mommyof2Cuties

Mommyof2Cuties

    Couch Potato

Posted Feb 20, 2012 @ 7:44 PM

Either way, I had a problem with Val's return in the finale and everyone being besties; just because one makes peace with one's nemesis (and I'm basing this on what I've read here about how Val "made up" with Kelly, et al.), doesn't mean you're all friends now.


I don't think they were portrayed as besties, though. I think they had all entered a more mature stage where they could interact together, that's all. Donna makes a snotty comment about Val to David when she finds out she's coming. Kelly and Val have a semi-snotty exchange when Val tells Kelly Matt's at the reception, and Kelly does that silly move to Val when she's celebrating catching the bouquet where she pulls the flowers away from Val and gives her a look like Val would steal them. I think the bonding moments for Val were really when she's with the guys getting dressed and when David kisses her at the reception, not so much with Kelly and Donna. I'm not a big Val fan, but I think she earned her spot in the finale as David's friend and as someone who had been in their lives for over four years.

I would have loved to see Jim and Cindy at the reception, and Brenda, and Clare (although, like Marie Claudine, I didn't like Clare either), and the carwash kid, and lots of people, but the show really was limited to who was willing to come back. They didn't even have David's mom there, which I see as a far bigger oversight than Brenda! I think the show did the video message with Brandon because Brandon was a huge part of the show for over eight years and mentioned Gina couldn't be there because she was Donna's sister, and let the rest of the obviously missing people go. I thought the finale was really good as far as finales go because they tried so hard to get familiar faces back. I get mileage varies, though. And I would have swapped out Randy Spelling for a mention about nearly anyone else in their past!

I think the bigger problem was that the show had the out-of-sight, out-of-mind mentality when characters left the show. If it wasn't a big stunt like Steve's birthday party or the high school reunion or the finale, we really didn't hear about former characters. They missed so many little moments where Kelly could have said "I called Iris to let her know that Dylan's in the hospital" or Donna telling Kelly that Dylan sent flowers after her shooting, or Steve saying Brandon was mad he wasn't in town for his impromptu wedding or Kelly saying Brenda or Andrea or Clare (or all of them!) sent a card to Donna after Dr. Martin died. They didn't do it throughout the show, and it's a shame because that would have been so easy to add and it would have made sense for who we knew the characters to be. They tried to cram some of that in for the finale, but there wasn't much room with everything else that was going on.

That said, while I repeat this gossip, I never really know what to make of it. When I hear all these stories about SD's alleged antics, and JG's alleged meanness, and TS snogging co-stars and then getting them to stay and all, it just seems so much like average magazine talk.


I agree. And I think for every comment about Shannen being unprofessional, there are comments about people enjoying working with her, behind the scenes people and other actors. For every Jennie was mean story, there's another story about her being friendly with almost everyone she worked with in 10 years on the show. I figure the truth was somewhere in the middle. Do I think Shannen had unprofessional moments? Yep, but she wasn't so unprofessional that Aaron was scared to cast her on another show of his. Do I think Jennie wasn't as welcoming as she could have been to EC and VM? Yep, but I doubt Brian would have stayed friends with her if she treated his girlfriend (and mother of his child) that badly. Nor do I think she would have become bffs with Tiffani or been so supported by her former costars in her other projects if she was a raging mean girl. I cannot wait until one of the cast members writes a tell-all. I wish Shannen and Tori would have put this stuff in their books. My money is on Ian or Gabrielle. ;) Seriously, I would just like to get it all out there and find out exactly what went down. Something tells me it's not as exciting as we're speculating, though.
  • 0

#24970

larapu2000

larapu2000

    Fanatic

Posted Feb 20, 2012 @ 8:01 PM

I thought The Heights happened before 90210...and that Jaime Walters came to 90210 after that show was cancelled. I could be wrong. The Heights was serious levels of suck.

I didn't like Matt telling Kelly she should be with Dylan. I thought that after all of the crap they'd gone through that he would be a lot more bitter. But most series finales end on an up note (The Sopranos excluded, LOL), so I don't begrudge them for making it a giant love-fest. But I can still never get over Mrs. Teasley coming to the wedding, and not any of the other important cast members that had left the show.

I think David and Donna definitely had a messed up history, but if you're Donna Martin, you marry the hottie.
  • 0

#24971

taliswoman

taliswoman

    Loyal Viewer

Posted Feb 20, 2012 @ 9:22 PM

Lurker posting: Shannen is getting her own reality show on We TV in April. Who is going to watch?
  • 0

#24972

Maxbird

Maxbird

    Fanatic

Posted Feb 20, 2012 @ 11:14 PM

What's We TV? Not having satellite or whatever I have no clue. That said, I love SD but would probably be saddened to watch some "reality show" with her. I wish she was acting in something scripted I could see her in.

As to gossip, TMZ is the new fan mag. I would say 99% of it is a bunch of crap, as it was in the magazines. I have seen it over and over though, that Shannen was fantastic but had zero regard for the rest of the cast. Frankly, I'd be pissed if rehearsals were held up for hours because somebody couldn't be bothered to show up. Regardless of how awesome somebody is, there is such a thing as professional behavior.

On other recent topics, as insufferable as Brandon frequently was, to me Susan was a double Brandon. I thought she was just horrific - coaxing him to sleep with her at her parents house, that godawful ski trip where she demeaned him and challenged him over and over, her hanging out with her ex. I hated her guts. I don't care about "you took the job". I wish he had punched her in the face and tossed her in the ocean.

I think y'all are right about characters sent off the canvas. They wanted us to move on but a mention here and there would have been nice. Particularly, Brenda and Brandon as they were the beginning and heart of the show starting out. It was heartbreaking that no matter what happened BTS that nobody seemed to miss Brenda or give a rats ass that she was gone.

On a way funner note, I agree that Brenda probably only knew Val when they were both little kids and saw her and had fun with her during vacations or whatever. Brenda would NOT have tolerated Val's machinations in any way whatsoever. She may have been taken in at first and found Val a fun exciting companion, but Brenda would never have supported blackmail, sleeping with boys just to hurt girls she didn't like, sneaking and lying. Yes, as a teen Brenda like (gasp) to her parents and snuck around with Dylan but for the most part she was openly defiant if she wanted something and suffered the consequences. She didn't sneak, lie and manipulate anyone. She wore her heart on her sleeve and had no use for ploys and cons.
  • 0

#24973

Marie Claudine

Marie Claudine

    Fanatic

Posted Feb 21, 2012 @ 2:45 AM

I hated her guts. I don't care about "you took the job". I wish he had punched her in the face and tossed her in the ocean.

Lol! Maxbird! Television Without Pity indeed!

I am always with Brandon on that one, too, though. I don't blame Susan for taking the job. I blame her for constantly treating Brandon like shit. She yelled in his face a few too many times, was inexcusably rude when she met him, and then later she was always nagging and bitching and on the attack whenever she got a chance. She made out with Jonathan right in front of Brandon ("Oh, he kissed me, I couldn't do anything!" Yeah, for like 15 seconds you couldn't?), and while she had her nice and supportive moments, the other ones were just more numerous, I'm afraid. But mostly I hated that everything with her was a competition. Everything was about her coming out greater than Brandon. That's messed up. She had absolutely no regard for her parents, who had just lost a child, instead skiing down a forbidden slope risking her own life, too. And why? She wanted to outski her boyfriend! What an important goal, talk about sick ambition. Also, she had absolutely no thought for the risk involved for other people if she started an avalanche. Brandon was wrong to go there, too, but when she disappeared over that edge on the forbidden slope, what was he supposed to do? Plus, she had been going at him all day with her little bitchy comments, I nearly understand that he was temporarily not thinking. (In fact I think while they both should have had their asses sued off, Brandon should also have dumped Susan.)
When it was Brandon's turn to take a job that was actually a bigger opportunity than hers (they offered him an internship with the option of a full-scale job after college!), she looked sad and sighed a lot and did a beautiful guilt trip if I ever saw one; but when it was her turn, she didn't hesitate a split second. After all the crap he took from her and still tried to make it work, I get why Brandon was upset. They were in a relationship. If she wanted to be free to take jobs, she would have had to tell him straight out when he was about to give up his: "Go. I would do the same." If he had still declined, he would have lost the right to be mad. But she didn't, because it was about her vacation.
This is not about grasping opportunities - that would have been a good thing; it's about trying to do the best for yourself while stomping down everyone around you, and frankly, she was masterly at that. She was right to go - the intership was a great opportunity, and she was a college kid. But keeping the manner in which she made her choices in mind, I think she deserved a little anger. With her, the bigger picture was alright, but the details were all off.

That said, later on we are led to believe that on his trip, Brandon was already so! over! Susan. If he had such an easy time getting over her, he was a tool for ever having turned down such a vital job opportunity for her.
  • 0

#24974

Shangrilala

Shangrilala

    Couch Potato

Posted Feb 21, 2012 @ 9:33 AM

On a way funner note, I agree that Brenda probably only knew Val when they were both little kids and saw her and had fun with her during vacations or whatever. Brenda would NOT have tolerated Val's machinations in any way whatsoever. She may have been taken in at first and found Val a fun exciting companion, but Brenda would never have supported blackmail, sleeping with boys just to hurt girls she didn't like, sneaking and lying.


Agreed, but my question is do you think Val would have pulled all those shenanigans if Brenda AND Brandon had been there? She came to LA and had Brandon as a friend. She had Steve paying attention to her. But she had a group of judgmental and bitchy college girls who were gossiping about her within 5 minutes of meeting her (Kelly and her "I should tell you this but..." leaning in all excited to gossip with Donna, and spilling the beans about why Val is really in town). The only thing that Val did "wrong" in those first episodes was play a couple of guys (Dylan/Steve), smoke some pot, wonder why nobody tried to get a drink while they were out AT A BAR, and call the gang avacado-heads. And she lied about her whereabouts when she was with Dylan. Sure, it's not upstanding model behavior, but truth be told is it that far off from most college sophomores? When I was 19 years old, I'd had several drinks in bars with my trusty fake ID, I had certainly been interested in more than one guy at a time, and I lied about my whereabouts when I was doing something I knew my parents would not approve of and I didn't want to deal.

And around the very same time we saw Princess Donna playing two guys, we saw her lie about who she was going out with. We saw Claire seducing Brandon and partying and lying to her dad when she was in high school. We saw Saint Kelly play two guys her freshman year of college, and her sophomore year of college and almost every year after that. We saw all of the gang drinking at parties, especially in first episodes of the college years. We saw them lie to their parents about their whereabouts plenty.

At that point in time, what was the difference between Val and the rest of the gang? Nothing much. That's why I wonder if having both Brandon AND Brenda there would have helped. Val never messed around with Susan or Tracy. She and Tracey become close friends. She and Susan were certainly friendly enough. And that's probably because those two didn't treat her horribly from the start. She didn't like for Brandon to be upset with her, and was better to Brandon than everybody else because she felt so close to him and his opinion mattered. I think that had Brenda been around when Val came to town, Val's shennanigans would have been vastly different and probably not so "evil."


I thought The Heights happened before 90210...and that Jaime Walters came to 90210 after that show was cancelled. I could be wrong. The Heights was serious levels of suck.


That show was so awful. I agree that bringing Ray back to "redeem" him was annoying and unnecessary from the 90210 point of view, but I think the writers were trying to do good by the actor. Didn't the character of Ray pretty much ruin Jamie Walters career after that, when in real life Jaime Walters was a really good levelheaded and talented guy?

I have seen it over and over though, that Shannen was fantastic but had zero regard for the rest of the cast.


I've heard it said that Shannen is just that good of an actress that she doesn't need the rehearsal time, she doesn't need to run her lines over and over again, that she just gets her script and can nail it right away (particularly when you know your character as well as the 90210 kids knew their characters at that point). Perhaps that contributed to a lot of conflict with the other actors and actresses who think thought that she couldn't be bothered, didn't want to rehearse more, etc., and who therefore thought she had total disregard for everybody else. Maybe she didn't completely care less about them. Maybe not. Maybe it's just the way she works best and she's going to work the way that's best for her rather than the strength of her part or some such thing. We've heard these stories about her plenty, and not just with the 90210 set. But perhaps it's just how she works best. I don't know, I'm just theorizing here. Showing up late all the time, however, is just unprofessional.
  • 0

#24975

SnowFox

SnowFox

    Fanatic

Posted Feb 21, 2012 @ 11:46 AM

This is another I read it somewhere comment so take it with a grain of salt.

SD’s father was in the hospital, and she was spending a lot of time there with him. Apparently, even when there are revisions to a script, SD can read through it, and immediately know her lines and perform so rehearsals weren’t as important to her.

Whatever SD’s problems might have been at the time, once she left the show, there were still problems on set so it definitely wasn’t all SD.
  • 0

#24976

Maxbird

Maxbird

    Fanatic

Posted Feb 21, 2012 @ 11:54 AM

Agreed, but my question is do you think Val would have pulled all those shenanigans if Brenda AND Brandon had been there? She came to LA and had Brandon as a friend. She had Steve paying attention to her. But she had a group of judgmental and bitchy college girls who were gossiping about her within 5 minutes of meeting her (Kelly and her "I should tell you this but..." leaning in all excited to gossip with Donna, and spilling the beans about why Val is really in town). The only thing that Val did "wrong" in those first episodes was play a couple of guys (Dylan/Steve), smoke some pot, wonder why nobody tried to get a drink while they were out AT A BAR, and call the gang avacado-heads. And she lied about her whereabouts when she was with Dylan. Sure, it's not upstanding model behavior, but truth be told is it that far off from most college sophomores?


You're right! I initially answered that with my knowledge of later (and frequently retconned) Val, not initial Val. Yes, perhaps Brenda would have asked the others to retract their claws and with two friends (the boys who lusted for her don't count) she may have not gotten so vindictive and greedy later. Nothing she did initially was anything everybody doesn't do. Even Donna-the-Good encouraged Brenda early on to lie to her parents about Dylan so even she was a typical teen. There was one indication of an agenda though, in the first Val episode. She called Ginger (or somebody) and made it very clear she was interested in Steve's credit card, not Steve. Catty and nasty as they may have been, I don't recall any of the other girls being so hell-bent on using guys for money at that age (main girls, not randon connivers). Then again, Brenda was very quick to lead the fray in ganging up on Emily. Of course that involved Emily dating Dylan so that probably set her off. And much as I love Brenda she was frequently jealous of attention others received, like when Brandon ran for class prez and she stomped out of the house in a huff.

Marie Claudine Regarding Susan, that competitive challenging and sneering was unbearable. And yes, Brandon's opportunity which she passive agressively put the kabosh on could have insured his entire future. I can't blame her for jumping at the internship she was offered but she expected others to be self-sacrificing for her benefit while she was not. This is too funny, in light of the Susan discussion. I was watching PLL last night (talk about addicting) and Spencer, who is totally Type A no pun intended, was describing her faults, one is which is being competitive and having to win at everything. She said "I even have to win at Yoga". The difference is, Spencer is a force of nature, admits her faults and lives with it. She's unfailingly kind to her friends and doesn't mock and sneer and dare. She just wants to win for her own satisfaction, not to put down others. And can you just imagine Susan's reaction if Brandon had an old flame show up and was kissing her, inviting her on their dates and expecting Susan to be just peachy with it?
  • 0

#24977

Jen1n

Jen1n

    Loyal Viewer

Posted Feb 21, 2012 @ 1:46 PM

With all this talk re: Susan, IMO Clare was the same way. She always treated Steve like crap, not only at first, but throughout their whole relationship. It seemed they were always fighting about something. Add to that the whole Prince Carl thing, the Dead Dick dabbling, her somewhat inappropriate co-dependant relationship with her Dad, leaving the way she did.. I could go on and on.

Susan wasn't one of my favorites, but I did think most of the time her and Brandon were a good match. Clare wasn't a favorite either, obviously, but I think in general she had a very bitchy nature about her. I can think of some instances where she was actually decent, but they are few.

I've heard a bit about Shannen's upcoming reality show- apparently it will follow her as she plans her wedding, with, assumingly, the wedding at the end.
  • 0

#24978

Bastet Esq

Bastet Esq

    Stalker

Posted Feb 21, 2012 @ 2:25 PM

I've heard it said that Shannen is just that good of an actress that she doesn't need the rehearsal time, she doesn't need to run her lines over and over again, that she just gets her script and can nail it right away (particularly when you know your character as well as the 90210 kids knew their characters at that point). Perhaps that contributed to a lot of conflict with the other actors and actresses who think thought that she couldn't be bothered, didn't want to rehearse more, etc., and who therefore thought she had total disregard for everybody else. Maybe she didn't completely care less about them. Maybe not. Maybe it's just the way she works best and she's going to work the way that's best for her rather than the strength of her part or some such thing.


This takes me back to my first year of law school. I had won the intramural moot court competition, in which one competes as an individual, and was asked to join the school's moot court team, which competes in small groups. I declined for a few reasons, a major one being the required group practice sessions; like Shannen Doherty, I don't work that way (even now, I do not do any sort of mock trial preparation). But, unlike SD, I knew it wouldn't be fair to my colleagues to disrupt their preparation - especially since I was the outlier and they were doing things the standard way - by refusing to participate.

Whenever a cast has competing schools of thought with respect to rehearsal time, compromise is essential, and usually the one in the minority is going to have to do the most adapting (unless, like with The Cosby Show, the one wanting minimal rehearsal is in charge of the show, and then everyone else is just going to have to learn to wing it along with Bill Cosby). But it seems there were other tensions, which isn't conducive to anyone wanting to make adjustments to suit another. And, yeah, when you have other actors years down the line screaming, "Let me out of here!" because of the behavior of other cast members, I don't believe those early problems were on SD's shoulders alone. The end product is what matters, and I consistently found SD the best performer of the bunch (granted, that's damning with faint praise, as I think the acting on this show was generally as bad as the writing). I remember times it seemed like some of the others, notably Luke Perry, were allowing their off-screen animosity towards SD to affect their portrayal of their character's interaction with Brenda, which I find highly unprofessional. I don't remember ever getting that same sense about SD.
  • 0

#24979

fuzzybear

fuzzybear

    Fanatic

Posted Feb 21, 2012 @ 7:57 PM

That show was so awful. I agree that bringing Ray back to "redeem" him was annoying and unnecessary from the 90210 point of view, but I think the writers were trying to do good by the actor. Didn't the character of Ray pretty much ruin Jamie Walters career after that, when in real life Jaime Walters was a really good levelheaded and talented guy?


Well that's the story JW went with (loudly and often whether anyone asked him or not) but I remember his solo album coming out and he was considered to be something of a joke and not because anyone I knew actually thought he beat up Donna Martin. It just wasn't a stellar album; very generic, sensitive guy, coffee house, grunge knock-off. The only thing about him that made him stand out from a million other singers just like him was that he was on 90210.
  • 0

#24980

Mommyof2Cuties

Mommyof2Cuties

    Couch Potato

Posted Feb 21, 2012 @ 7:59 PM

Agreed, but my question is do you think Val would have pulled all those shenanigans if Brenda AND Brandon had been there? She came to LA and had Brandon as a friend. She had Steve paying attention to her. But she had a group of judgmental and bitchy college girls who were gossiping about her within 5 minutes of meeting her (Kelly and her "I should tell you this but..." leaning in all excited to gossip with Donna, and spilling the beans about why Val is really in town). The only thing that Val did "wrong" in those first episodes was play a couple of guys (Dylan/Steve), smoke some pot, wonder why nobody tried to get a drink while they were out AT A BAR, and call the gang avacado-heads. And she lied about her whereabouts when she was with Dylan. Sure, it's not upstanding model behavior, but truth be told is it that far off from most college sophomores? When I was 19 years old, I'd had several drinks in bars with my trusty fake ID, I had certainly been interested in more than one guy at a time, and I lied about my whereabouts when I was doing something I knew my parents would not approve of and I didn't want to deal.


I think Val would have been exactly the same even with Brenda there. The only things Val did wrong is a pretty long list for someone looking to join an already established group of friends. It's not like she knew what Kelly and Donna were thinking about her. She called them "avocado heads" and lit up in Jim and Cindy's house before Kelly ever let on that she didn't think Val was legit. Donna and Kelly didn't owe her lifelong friendship. Yes, they should have tried being nice to Val out of respect to Brandon, but didn't Val owe them the exact same respect? She was the newbie, the outsider. Where was her respect to Brandon by not playing his best friends or disrespecting the Walsh home by smoking an illegal drug there? I look at it like this, gossiping isn't kind but it's relatively harmless. Drugs (if you're the kind of person who doesn't want to be around them, which all of them in the gang were at that point and certainly Jim and Cindy were) and lying are more serious to me.

Val seemed to not have a problem with Susan and Clare, but she wasn't competing with them either. They were new to the gang, just like Val. She liked Tracey, but she manipulated her, too. I think Val went after Kelly and Donna because they had what she wanted at the time. I think she would have tried the same nonsense with Brenda, and Brenda would have seen through her act, too. If anything, I think the fact that Brandon felt solely responsible for her helped Val's case. Brenda would have helped him see that this Val wasn't the same as their old childhood friend, but someone who was manipulative and loved stirring up drama.

I also don't think Brenda would have stuck up for Val much beyond the beginning. Brenda was loyal to her friends (even when they didn't deserve it or want it), so I have a hard time imagining watching her make excuses for Val based on a friendship from grade school while her present day friends suffered. I also think the going after Dylan and pawing through Brenda's stuff in the garage would have definitely rubbed Brenda the wrong way.

I think my main point is that no, Val wasn't that unusual as far as playing two guys, getting high, and wanting to drink in college was concerned. Lots of people do that, and they get away with it or get burned, and life goes on. What makes Val more heinous in my eyes is that she did these things to people she was supposedly desperate to be friends with. She played two guys in the same circle. She lied to people who were bound to catch her in her lies. She got high in the house of the people who took her in. When you do all that, it seems to me that you're looking to get caught and/or make waves. People gossiping about you just doesn't make those things okay in my book. Neither does the fact that all the group members had their own lists of sins. They had years worth of friendship to fall back on. Val didn't. And instead of putting her best foot forward, she chose to pull shady stunts and play the victim when she got called out for it. That's all on her, in my opinion.
  • 0

#24981

Marie Claudine

Marie Claudine

    Fanatic

Posted Feb 22, 2012 @ 4:29 AM

And, yeah, when you have other actors years down the line screaming, "Let me out of here!" because of the behavior of other cast members, I don't believe those early problems were on SD's shoulders alone. The end product is what matters, and I consistently found SD the best performer of the bunch

I agree about the tensions, and must say that, I, too, think that SD was probably the best actress on the show - although some of her performances in S4 look a little worn out to me. But maybe it's just her white, white forehead :-).
That said, I think JG is actually a relatively good actress, too, but only if you give her something to work with. Jimmy's death, Perfect Mom, the slumber party, the coke phase, flying off the handle with Jackie in the senior photo eppie, the rape: those where all instances where she really nailed it.

Kelly and her "I should tell you this but..." leaning in all excited to gossip with Donna, and spilling the beans about why Val is really in town

I don't think sharing this with Donna makes her judgmental. We didn't hear her say "Val isn't to be trusted - she's out of it because her dad shot herself." She just shared the information, and I think it was merely gossipy. As for that, I will admit frankly that I would have told my best friend, too. I have known her for ages, I tell her pretty much everything and I know that the things I share are safe with her. As they were with Donna. I don't see Kelly telling Donna as much worse than Jim telling his family in front of Kelly. It may not have been the 100% right thing to do for Kelly, but I don't think it is a show of deep-seated evilness either.
I agree that Kelly didn't exactly seem uber-welcoming in the sight of Val. But I agree with Mommy that Val didn't need any encouragement to pull her shenanigans. She played Dylan and Steve, two friends of whom one quite evidently needed help, not more trouble. She lied to the Walshes about seeing Dylan. She accepted to buy new clothes on Jim's credit card and live there, but didn't give a shit about them. She enabled Dylan's addicition, encouraging his self-destructive ways. She sniffed through Brenda's stuff. While I did a lot of stupid things when I was even younger than Val, I never did that.

I can still understand Val, though, because even if we take away the abuse story that was only introduced later, having your dad kill himself is really traumatizing.

Edited by Marie Claudine, Feb 22, 2012 @ 4:32 AM.

  • 0

#24982

Scorpiosrule

Scorpiosrule

    Stalker

Posted Feb 22, 2012 @ 7:53 AM

Val called the Walshes, Cindy and Jim, I think "avocado heads." Not Kelly, Donna, etc. Maybe even Brandon. But not the gang, because I don't think she'd met them yet.
  • 0

#24983

desertflower

desertflower

    Fanatic

Posted Feb 22, 2012 @ 9:03 AM

Val called the Walshes, Cindy and Jim, I think "avocado heads." Not Kelly, Donna, etc. Maybe even Brandon. But not the gang, because I don't think she'd met them yet.


It's been a while since I've seen that one but I'm pretty sure she had met them because that was the big reveal at the end of the episode. They show her all sweet and nice and then at the end they reveal the conversation with her friend as she rolls the joint. And after calling them that I think she mentions that they went out and no one even tried to order a drink.

But correct me if I'm not remembering it right, I get some of the scenes mixed up.
  • 0

#24984

Marie Claudine

Marie Claudine

    Fanatic

Posted Feb 22, 2012 @ 9:12 AM

Yes - she calls them avocado heads at the end of the eppie, when she's on the phone with Ginger and tells her that no one even tried to get alcohol at that bar where Mr "He Be Outta There" works. So the comment includes Kelly, Donna, Steve, and Brandon. Personally I don't think it is much of an insult, though. I could care less if someone called me that (even if I actually were from California :-)).
  • 0

#24985

gilgi

gilgi

    Video Archivist

Posted Feb 22, 2012 @ 9:43 AM

I have to admit that I'm a total softie when it comes to Val, but I don't think her initial actions were so awful, or rather I see them as a consequence of trauma from her dad's suicide (murder? earlier abuse?--I'm leaving the later revealed stuff alone here) and being a fish out of water. I think she desperately wanted to fit in with the gang and that's part of why she accepted Steve's advances. And at the same time, I think she really didn't like the gang that much, hence the gossiping to Ginger and the interest in Dylan. I think she saw Dylan as another lost soul (and she was probably curious about him because he'd been with Brenda). Like a lot of people that age, she couldn't really acknowledge either her wanting to fit in or her dislike of "the gang," and I think she also probably got a lot of esteem from being a girl who could "play with men" (esp. if she really was abused), and that made everything worse.

I don't think Kelly's gossiping about Val was so awful in and of itself, but Kelly was so dismissive of her and mean to her from the get-go, and I think that really was unwarranted, especially once she did know some of the backstory. But even before that, as an 'insider' she had more of a responsibility to be nice to a newcomer than the other way around.
  • 0

#24986

Maxbird

Maxbird

    Fanatic

Posted Feb 22, 2012 @ 11:06 PM

I agree that Kelly didn't exactly seem uber-welcoming in the sight of Val. But I agree with Mommy that Val didn't need any encouragement to pull her shenanigans. She played Dylan and Steve, two friends of whom one quite evidently needed help, not more trouble. She lied to the Walshes about seeing Dylan. She accepted to buy new clothes on Jim's credit card and live there, but didn't give a shit about them. She enabled Dylan's addicition, encouraging his self-destructive ways. She sniffed through Brenda's stuff.


Yes, the writing introduced Val as a person with agendas. It was telling to me that in her very first episode, she made nice with everyone and then called Ginger to smirk at them while smoking pot. I don't care what she smoked, it was Jim and Cindy's house and verboten. I can get that she was shocked at their idea of "partying" (snooze, yawn, they only had good parties in high school), but she mentioned Steve giving "good credit card" and how boring and beneath her they all were.

Kelly was not very welcoming; however I didn't think her telling Donna about the suicide was bitchy or nasty. Everyone would be curious about the new girl staying with their fave family and I would certainly tell my best friend anything I knew about her. And yes, her playing two guys in the same group she was attempting to be accepted by was very poor planning. It's not as if it happened over time - she glommed onto both of them and then lied her ass off to Steve. Emily V did the same thing (dating 2 of th group) but she was forthright and honest about it. And she got a much worse welcome from Brenda than Val did from Kelly. I can't really fault her for going after Dylan - she was edgy and the gang were goody two shoes.

Summing up, she didn't get nasty because they were not welcoming. I don't think she came there on a destructive mission, but she didn't make much effort to befriend the girls and get in with them. She was dissing them and the family that took her in a few hours after her arrival. Which is why I will never ever understand her big scam with Ginger, hiring Ginger to endear herself to te gang. Silly show - but so much fun, all these years later.
  • 0

#24987

Scorpiosrule

Scorpiosrule

    Stalker

Posted Feb 23, 2012 @ 8:16 AM

I can't really fault her for going after Dylan - she was edgy and the gang were goody two shoes.


I saw it differently; she went after Dylan, because he'd been Brenda's boyfriend, and she wanted what Brenda had. Which tell me, that maybe they might have been friends as children, but that Val was jealous of Brenda and wanted what she had had, and since Brenda was gone, she was going to go after Dylan. I don't think it had anything to do with her being edgy and Dylan being a Bad, Dangerous Boy.
  • 0

#24988

desertflower

desertflower

    Fanatic

Posted Feb 23, 2012 @ 9:22 AM

I've been enjoying the recent Soapnet eps...Paris, Dylan and Kelly, etc. While I still in my heart wish Brandon and Kelly would've ended up together, I admit Kelly and Dylan had some nice chemistry during those scenes when they first start flirting and hanging out. It seemed to happen kind of naturally and the show did a nice job showing how conflicted they were about it. Well, Kelly was conflicted at least, I'm not so sure about Dylan; it seems like Kelly was always the one bringing up Brenda. And Brenda is so pretty in those episodes; I think it's the makeup or something.

And I watched the first Gil ep recently too, and I forgot how much I loved Andrea in those scenes, especially when she finally tells him off after he calls her an overachiever. "What would Walt Whitman have to say about that.....GIL?" Love how she snarls "Gil." Personally I would rank Gabrielle as one of the better actresses on the show along with SD. Despite some of her over the top worry faces, I think in general she did a great job with that character, especially when she got into "overacheiver" mode, as Gil would say.

I wanted to like Gil; I didn't mind the actor too much, but he was clueless. As so many other adults on the show, he deferred entirely too much to the opinion of high schoolers. When he realizes he messed up with Andrea, the first thing he does is spill his guts to Brandon to ask his opinion. How about talking to another faculty member or oh, someone who is not your student? I mean there's nothing wrong with being approachable and having a good rapport with the students but he put Brandon on a pedestal from day one and it was kind of weird. It would've been nice to see a cool teacher on the show who actually knew how to have healthy boundaries with the students.
  • 0

#24989

Mommyof2Cuties

Mommyof2Cuties

    Couch Potato

Posted Feb 23, 2012 @ 10:47 AM

Personally I don't think it is much of an insult, though. I could care less if someone called me that (even if I actually were from California :-)).


Yeah, that was very "junior high" for someone as cool as Val was supposed to be.

I don't think Kelly's gossiping about Val was so awful in and of itself, but Kelly was so dismissive of her and mean to her from the get-go, and I think that really was unwarranted, especially once she did know some of the backstory. But even before that, as an 'insider' she had more of a responsibility to be nice to a newcomer than the other way around.


I don't know what else Kelly could have done to welcome her in the beginning. She hung out with her and was nice to her face (gossiping behind her back aside). Val had already formed a negative impression of the gang, as we see from her phone call to Ginger. Even when she was asked about the pot, she didn't admit to it and say that she was surprised the kids weren't into it here like they were at home. She pretended she was as sweet as pie, the kind of girl who wouldn't do anything wrong. She definitely had an agenda.

I do feel for Val because of her backstory (all of them). But she wasn't in elementary school where everyone is forced to play nice with each other. She was a college student who should have known that if she didn't fit with these people, she should find a group of friends of her own. She certainly had classes with dozens of people to choose from at CU. Living with Brandon didn't obligate anyone in the gang to take her under their wing or be her friend. I have a problem seeing Val as being owed their friendship. In my opinion, she was entitled to politeness and respect as a guest of the Walshes, and nothing else.

I saw it differently; she went after Dylan, because he'd been Brenda's boyfriend, and she wanted what Brenda had. Which tell me, that maybe they might have been friends as children, but that Val was jealous of Brenda and wanted what she had had, and since Brenda was gone, she was going to go after Dylan. I don't think it had anything to do with her being edgy and Dylan being a Bad, Dangerous Boy.


I saw it how you saw it. And Val didn't know that she was going to find D!S!Dylan, someone that she might be able to bond with. She thought she was going to get loving, wounded, moody Dylan that Brenda had dated.

I've been loving the SOD and Senior year episodes, too. :) I hate what they ended up doing with Reeek. He and Brenda had so much potential. I'm a sucker for those destined to be together stories. I don't know why they had to take him so far into Jim-clone territory. Finding out that he was really going to be an accountant and not a writer would have been enough.

And I'm having an easier time seeing how it is Kelly and Dylan fell for each other romantically so fast. The groundwork was pretty much laid when Dylan started talking about his daddy issues with Kelly, and keeping them from Brenda. It would have been nice if the story could have been Brenda and Dylan realizing that they were more connected to others (Reeek and Kelly) and coming to terms with that and how they could move on while still loving each other than seeing Brenda pining for what she had while Dylan and Kelly carried on. No one really had to end up on the losing end of the triangle, if they had played it the way it had been going during the summer.
  • 0

#24990

Shangrilala

Shangrilala

    Couch Potato

Posted Feb 23, 2012 @ 4:07 PM

I don't know that I agree with Kelly and the backstabbing. I do agree that in the crux of female friendships is the natural inclination to talk and discuss what you know. But the intent behind that can always be displayed through delivery, and when Donna sat down on that lawn chair and commented how nice Valerie was, prompting the whole discussion, Kelly said "yeah, it's amazing she's so well adjusted" or some such thing. Donna said "what do you mean" and Kelly leaned in and said "well, I probably shouldn't tell you this..."

The "It's amazing she's so well-adjusted" or whatever the line is sets off my bitch radar because of the delivery and the line itself. Kelly didn't say, "She really is, it looks like she's having a good time too" or anything like that. Her statement indicated that something was wrong with Val. Which, quite frankly, was none of their business at that point.

Perhaps it was to set the stage that Kelly was onto her and that she had this insight into people so that she could recognize when they were bad news. If Kelly had a history of that, okay, but let's face it, the girl doesn't have stellar record when it comes judging people's character. Granted some of that poor judgement comes after the fact, starting in this season (Finley, Tara, Colin, etc.), but I don't buy that Kelly met her and automatically knew that she was "damaged." Her father's story was tragic but that doesn't mean that Val had to be evil and the bad girl. For all she knew at that point Val could have been depressed and trying to cover it. She could be evil. She could be relieved to be away from the stress of being in Buffalo. We didn't know yet. So neither should Kelly.

Plus, I guess I just think it was rude to convey something so personal to Donna. Being no stranger to the woes of a troubled parent, you'd think Kelly might have shown a little sensitivity and privacy. Sure she didn't owe Val anything at that point because she didn't know her, but she was Brandon's girlfriend, and Val was the daughter of the Walsh's best friends. There was no respect or sensitivity to any privacy in Val's situation. Val might not have wanted to start out in LA being known as the girl whose father blew himself to bits. Perhaps she didn't want the looks and whispers, the speculation, the stigma. Perhaps she wanted to share that side of her family with those who she felt closest too, on her terms. My husband's father committed suicide when my husband was 4 and 31 years later he only shares that with the people closest to him because it's personal and painful. What happened to Val was personal and painful and while Kelly didn't owe her anything at that point, she could have at the very least respected that because that's the decent thing to do.

My point is that 1) I think it was rude of Kelly to tell Donna about Val's background and quite frankly it was none of their business and 2) I don't think it stemmed from a place of concern, I think it stemmed from a place of gossip and given the sensitivity of the subject, I think that makes it pretty bitchy, especially when taken in context of that whole scene.

I think Kelly didn't like Val at first, not because she could see right through her, but she was this gorgeous, seemingly lighthearted girl playing basketball with the guys in the backyard, and flirting with Steve, and having a good time. I think right away there was a jealousy factor, plain and simple. Whether she was right about Val later on is irrelevant because Val hadn't done anything to the gang at that point to indicate such profound insight on the part of Kelly. They had met for about 10 minutes.

I think I would have liked to have seen Val and Brenda interact together, but like I said in my earlier post, I don't think Brenda would have put up with Val's games. But I don't think that Val would have gone after Dylan because we are to assume that had Brenda not left, she and Dylan might have been back together, or upon returning from London, she probably would have immediately been the one to try and help him. I think the only reason Dylan made that comment about her being just a memory was because he was hurt to find out that she wasn't coming back after their moment of "give me something to come back to." So I don't know that Val would have gone there if Brenda was in LA because she wouldn't be trying to take over Brenda's life when Brenda was there living it. I DO think that the lines in the female friendships would have been drawn. Kelly and Brenda were already at odds with each other and so strained, I think that a Brenda/Val would have been the final nail in the coffin of the Kelly/Brenda friendship. But perhaps the Brenda/Val friendship would have been enough to calm Val a bit. Or channel her affinity for trouble making elsewhere and in a different way.
  • 0