7282 replies to this topic

[o.b.]

Scade

All her fault? How's that? 

Well if she hadn't brought Buffy back from Not!Heaven, the Trio would have taken over Sunnydale (if the demon-bikers hadn't done it first). So Warren wouldn't have been pissed, so he wouldn't have tried to shoot Buffy...

(Nah! I got nothing)

Edited by o.b., Dec 31, 2003 @ 10:06 PM.

[shimi]

Hee, o.b!

I wish the writers hadn't made certain missteps with the Willow SL but I still have much love for her. Sure there was some ego involved in her certainty, but in rewatching Bargaining ( 1 & 2) I was struck by her love for Buffy.

[Blake]

And if Warren's parents had just used birth control...

Seriously though, Willow is responsible for her magic addiction and pretty much for the breakup itself, but I don't think any of this led directly to Tara's death.

[o.b.]

HexLover

if Willow hadn't tried to rais Buffy then she wouldn't have gotten a huge "hit" of very dark magicks and Tara probably would have been able to control or stop the problem before it got serious. 

I might be able to see this if
a) I wasn't in denial about the "magic is addictive drugs" Martiphor
b) Willow had been in some kind of trippy high post-raising Buffy, instead of just magic-exhausted.

[EONdc]

And if Warren's parents had just used birth control...

Ha.

I gotta agree: not Willow's fault. If she and Tara hadn't broken up, Tara would have still been living at the Summers' house and there is every chance in the world she'd have beens standing right there regardless. Using the "it's Willow's fault" logic, you could say it's Buffy's fault, because if she hadn't jumped off the tower in The Gift, Tara wouldn't have moved in to the house in the first place. Or that it's Oz's fault, because if he hadn't left town Willow might not have met Tara. Or his Oz's cousin's fault, because if he hadn't bitten Oz, Oz wouldn't have wolfed out and had to leave town and.... nevermind. I think I made my point.

Ultimately, there is only one person to blame for killing Tara: Joss Whedon. Damn you Joss Whedon.

Edited by EONdc, Jan 1, 2004 @ 10:27 AM.

[Screamie]

I finally got to see "Seeing Red" all the way through today (I missed the middle 15 minutes the first time it aired -- but I've finally seen every full episode after today.) I was absolutely shocked about how much I liked it. I've always believed that Steven S. Deknight has done (and is still currently doing) interesting things for Spike.

I also have to add that Spike and Dawn's crypt talk had to be the only moment ever in which I could tolerate Dawn.

Old question: Can someone tell me how Tara would feasibly be shot? Was the bullet supposed to ricochet off something?

Edited by Screamie, Jan 5, 2004 @ 3:42 AM.

[brave little toaster]

I don't think anybody can be blamed for Tara's death.

I'm comfortable blaming Warren.

And the bullet's bizarre and impossible trajectory was only one of the myriad reasons for me to hate hate hate that plot development.

[brave little toaster]

ooh, I almost said that too, but I stopped myself, and started chanting my season 6 mantra: let go of the anger, let go of the anger... I definitely feel most conflicted about the purchase of season 6 dvds than any other season. I want all those OMWF extras, but I may never watch the end of that season again. God I was so pissed at the time--best not to revisit it.

[Tanker]

S6 is superior to S5 and S7, in my opinion, for a structural reason. They followed the S3 model of introducing the (supposed) Big Bads early to the audience, but kept them hidden from Buffy until later. This avoids the S5/7 problem of "The Big Bad and Buffy know each other, but don't do anything for 20 episodes." They also used the S2-3 "good guy becomes the bad guy" thing.

Note that this says nothing about whether it was actually done well. I'm just saying that I believe the season was structured better than either 5 or 7, and is more satisfying to me for that reason (among others; I like S6, for the most part).

[brave little toaster]

Oh, I would agree that there were some good ideas at the heart of season 6, and I could have been behind an explosion of the brewing tensions between Buffy and Willow--but I couldn't believe that they ignored, at the end of the season, the issue of Willow dragging Buffy back from the dead and the tension that created, and, well, basically I would sum season 6 up as good ideas, very poorly executed.

[1formybaby]

I agree with most of Bebop's post above.

I would have preferred the Willow storyline to have progressed as the corruption of power. Willow who had once been timid and gentle turning to her powerful and violent shadow self. The grief of losing Tara, her lover and her connection to her original self, propelling her to lose herself completely in her own shadow. I really disliked the whole drug addiction angle - they seemed to be mixing up their metaphors, and we were really hit over the head with the whole thing.

[QueenAnne]

I have a question I just thought of:

Considering that now we all know that Spike was supposed to be the Bad Boyfriend, and that we were supposed to think he was always bad for Buffy even at times when (arguably) he was not, what exactly are we to make of Tara's being all cutesy with Spike after Buffy confesses to Tara her shameful secret? Because Tara's all wink, wink at Spike, and her body language is all "aren't you cute with your attempts to fool me, who now knows you and Buffy are getting it on". Are we supposed to think she is dim, or traitorous? Why isn't Tara glaring at him or casting a little spell to make his nose light on fire or something? As far as I remember, everyone else is disgusted, and according to the ME retcon outlined above, everyone's supposed to be. Why does Tara get a free pass from the writers if her treatment of this odd relationship is all "wrong"? At the first go-round, it made me think that Tara was tolerant and wise. Now that we the audience know that we're supposed to think that Spike was never meant to be with Buffy, I think that reaction was wrong.

[Teenes]

I think the Bad Boyfriend explanation was a simplification of the one aspect of the story they didn't feel they conveyed adequately well. I don't think it was ever meant to be the one and only way to view that story. If it was it's just bizarre to me that they managed to tell a complex story like that by mistake.

I loved Tara's teasing of Spike in OAFA. That's a side of Tara that I wish we had had a chance to see more.

[Naxus]

I think Willow had at least four separate (and in some respects contradictory) story arcs in Season 6

I pretty much agree. The thing is, I can see where ME may have thought that they were doing the "logical progression" thing, at least at the end. Tara's death leads to Willow returning to the magic and going vigilante; that magic pushes and corrupts her even further; killing Warren seals her descent; and her anger about the Scoobies protecting Jonathan and Andrew leads her to attack them.

The trouble is, I agree that none of this really seemed to flow. It seems more like a series of 'easy outs' that ME took in order to get where they wanted to be in the end. The drug metaphor was introduced in order to reduce Willow's control, which effectively removed much of the responsibility for her actions and made it easier for ME to make her bad; it also produced Withdrawal Willow, allowing them to use Tara's death to push Willow off the wagon.

I would have preferred the Willow storyline to have progressed as the corruption of power

I agree. It's been discussed before by people (including myself), but I think the story would have been much better served if they had had Willow become gradually darker as the season went on. As she becomes darker and more reliant on dark magic, she would become alienated from the Scoobs, which would fuel her darkness more, and it would contrast nicely with Buffy finding her way out of the darkness. I think that would have been a much more compelling storyline than MagiCrack, but hey, I haven't discovered time travel. But I'm working on it. Okay, not really, but if it ever fell into my lap....

[DeeeDee]

What made it even worse for me was the complete and utter lack of Xander in Will's storyline in S6. For a while I was happy with the yellow crayon speech, but the more I thought about it, the less I became.

It made no sense to me (and still doesn't) that he was nowhere for Flooded, Smashed, Wrecked, Afterlife & so on IMO. I mean this is her best friend for like forever and then all of the sudden he just disappears? I felt like the writers used him a lot of times, especially in S6 to prop other characters and didn't think things through. He gets that one scene in Gone but that's pretty much it. I also loathe ME's direction for Willow's arc in S6 but it seemed like every arc was stupidly planned or executed for the season IMO. Not to mention that Buffy & Willow (especially) get an easy out in my eyes and never fully accept culpability for their actions.

[Perfect Xero]

Considering that now we all know that Spike was supposed to be the Bad Boyfriend, and that we were supposed to think he was always bad for Buffy even at times when (arguably) he was not, what exactly are we to make of Tara's being all cutesy with Spike after Buffy confesses to Tara her shameful secret?

I didn't think Tara was acting 'cutesy' with Spike, I thought she was trying to be subtle about it and maybe having a little fun at Spike's expense, but I think she was definitely trying to keep Spike away from Buffy. I don't think she was condoning their relationship ...

[LFChickenhead]

Of all the problems I had with S6, the lack of Xander in Willow's storyline didn't feature too highly. I agree with Bebop that Willow's character 'arcs' didn't score so highly in the consistency stakes but in none of those arcs did Xander's presence or absence ring false for me.

First in relation to the initial 'abuse of power' vibe, Xander, with the rest of the group, expressed some doubt about whether resurrecting Buffy was the best course of action, but it was Xander who made the plaque with sparkles on it, and Willow pretty much steam-rode over any objections. Also, Xander's competence to establish whether Willow was "using too much magic" is zip. Giles and Tara, maybe, were qualified to make this judgment, Xander not so much. But Xander did make a contribution in the only relevant occurrence which concerned him, i.e. Buffy's resurrection. I think a justifiable Xander response to Willow making decorations with mojo is "Decorations, pretty". That's what I think my response would have been. In Afterlife and Flooded, the focus is, reasonably enough, on Buffy rather than Willow. Any signs of Willow's power abuse (e.g. the deer, the row with Giles - even the first Tara mind ream) were outside of Xander's knowledge.

The only place where I do have a problem is with the entire absence of a discussion between Willow and any of the Scoobs after she broke up with Tara and I think it is frustrating that this was passported, but I don't see it as a Xander-centric problem.

The magic addiction storyline, I have even less of a problem with from Xander's perspective. Addiction is secret and sleazy, that's part of the problem. It's not something you blab with to your friends, it's something you keep well hidden. So, Xander not being involved with Rack, I don't have a problem with.

With regard to Willow's first recovery/cold turkey phase, we see Xander being mostly supportive (or sometimes, less so, e.g. OaFA). This is a regular and natural response for someone with a friend who is going through a problem which they don't really understand or have personal experience with.

Finally on the whole vengeance spree, there just isn't much opportunity for Xander to intervene. He's with Buffy because that is initially his main focus (not knowing what has happened to Tara). After that, things get a bit hairy. And, I think it was a valid dramatic choice to hold off on any meaningful emotional W/X interaction in the episodes immediately prior to the big yellow crayon pay-off.

[Ailiana]

I did think that Tara was being supportive of Buffy, and of her relationship with Spike in OaFA. She was having fun with teasing Spike, definately, but she also let Buffy see her teasing, and accepting of the fact that they had a relationship. It was subtle, so that those not in the know didn't pick up on it, but I'm sure Buffy felt that Tara was giving her support. And it put Spike in the position of basically any secret boyfriend, almost like the way they did it on Friends when Monica and Chandler were a secret. It was funny and charming, and for me definately was endorsing the relationship for me.

[Vandalisimo]

I agree with Teenes that the "bad boyfriend" comment was really an oversimplification by the writers after the fact, because they felt that maybe too many people were seeing some kind of really romantic and lovely relationship which, IMO, wasn't what they intended. Regardless, I think they didn't do themselves any favors with the "bad boyfriend" comment, because, although I saw the relationship as horribly unhealthy, it was unhealthy for both characters. I think the "bad boyfriend" comment was just reactionary and ultimately can't really define what was going on there.

[DEM]

The party decorations were pretty. IMO, Tara's complaint about whipping up party decorations by magic rather than buying them was utterly ridiculous.

I thought Xander's involvement in Will's story was as clunky and incomprehensible as most other aspects of S6. On the one hand, I do agree that Xander seemed to be mostly absent from Will's breakdown. On the other hand, there's this:

XANDER: Tara thinks Willow is doing too much magic. And she's not the only one. Smashed

I wanted to smack 'im upside the head when he said that. I wondered on what he was basing his opinion, but it was implied that he'd been talking to Tara (the "expert"). In addition, I also got the impression during that conversation that he already knew Amy had been de-ratted. That, again, implied that Xander knew about events in Will's life but that these W/X scenes had been passported. So, when Wrecked rolled around and he was still sitting on his ass in the Magic Box and backbiting rather than making any attempt to reach out to or intervene with Will, my regard slipped even lower. By Gone I was done with Xander.

Fast-forward to the end of the season. ME started off Xander's hero arc with out-of-the-blue, regressive "I'm worthless" talk so he can be in place for the big finish. Strike 50. Then there was the yellow crayon speech which I found hollow and off-the-mark because its content had nothing to do with W/X in S6.

Switching gears to Tara in OaFA. Ugh. As far as I can recall, Tara was being supportive and protective of Buffy. I didn't get the sense that she was endorsing Spuffy so much as practising her brand of unconditional positive regard toward Buffy. There was nothing about interrupting Spike's attempt to "woo" Buffy in the corridor that bespoke validation IMO. Nevertheless, because I find Tara to be weasely in general and thought Greenberg's depiction of Tara in that ep was ridiculous, I'll admit I'm not entirely certain what the hell Tara was doing.

[brave little toaster]

I had already responded to this, but I guess TWoP lost it last night when the forums experienced their glitch--I liked the scene where Tara tells Buffy it's ok to be screwing Spike, and I think at the most, Tara's guilty of a slight mis-reading of the situation. She thinks Buffy feels guilty for having sex with Spike without being in love with him, and Tara points out that it's ok for her to do that. I don't think she understands that what's bothering Buffy is a: the lack of feeling she has for *anything* or anyone and b: possibly the fact that she's letting Spike hurt her, and degrade her. I think Tara mis-reads Buffy and interprets these fears as mere guilt over having some empty but physically satisfying sex. If that's the assumption she makes, I don't think she gives her bad advice. I don't remember the scene perfectly well, but I think she tells her that it's ok to love Spike, and if she doesn't love him, it's ok to have sex with him, if that's what she wants to do. I'm sympathetic with Tara's advice, even though I hated Spuffy and everything I thought it did to the show.

Edited by brave little toaster, Jan 6, 2004 @ 10:41 AM.

[valny]

I loved Tara's teasing of Spike in OAFA.

That and the standing up for Willow scene was the highlight of OaFA for me. Shrieking Dawn, not so much.