Get out, get out, GET OUT! The Dawn Topic
Posted Mar 6, 2004 @ 4:46 AM
I did like her bond with Tara, especially after Joyce's death.
Posted Mar 6, 2004 @ 1:08 PM
If that were the case, the forces that bound the Key into her material form might have begun casting about for something to maintain themselves. And in season six and seven, we begin to see Dawn exhibiting characteristics of Giles, Xander and Willow, while those characters all seem to *lose* those same characteristics. Slowly but surely, it seemed that Dawn was consuming the other Scoobies alive, leaving them hollow shells of themselves, while she wandered around casting spells, using computers, doing research, helping fix windows, etc. Meanwhile, Giles, Willow and Xander seem to be losing those same skills, being less able to research, or use the computer, or cast spells, and otherwise behaving dispirited and lifeless.
But no. Apparently Dawn wasn't magically made from Buffy after all, since after Buffy died she kept on trucking, in complete defiance of magical laws of sympathy and contagion (which, to be fair, I'd warrant Marti Noxon has never heard of, since her idea of 'magic' is creating scantily-clad cage dancers with a wave of your hand).
Posted Mar 6, 2004 @ 3:58 PM
Anyway. I can live with Dawn not disintegrating after Buffy's death, but I never understood why the whole fake memories thing wasn't solved. For Pete's sack, they could incorporate the loss of fake memories into the consequences of Tabula Rasa spell, and it would have perfectly served as a reasonable cause for Dawn's-angst-of-season-6, which existed anyway, only, you know, with much less reasonable cause.
Fake memories is my only complain about BtVS which I'm never, ever going to drop. They're also the reason why I could never really adjust to Dawn's character, no matter how they tried to make me like her in season 7.
Posted Mar 6, 2004 @ 4:41 PM
Posted Mar 6, 2004 @ 4:42 PM
Edited by HexLover, Mar 6, 2004 @ 4:43 PM.
Posted Mar 6, 2004 @ 5:38 PM
I think had ME matured the character in S6 & 7 even more I could've really grown to like Dawn. For a lot of the last couple of seasons it felt like she never had an individual personality of her own, and I could've actually dug her being a composite of parts of each of the Scoobies personalities to some degree.
I also wondered why they never explored her relationship with Willow even more since that seemed like interesting territory on both sides too.
Posted Mar 6, 2004 @ 6:31 PM
There is a great deal of disagreement on that point. I believe the mere intelectual knowledge that the memories are false does not counter the emotional weight of the false memories. Something exemplified by Buffy's "memory" of Dawn being brought home from the hospital being one of the memories she loops when Dawn's kidnapping breaks her in WoTW.
How much impact would losing the false memories of Dawn really have, though? The point of the fals memories was to conceal the fact that she was really the Key, but once everybody figured it out but decided she was still important and part of the family, would it really matter whether they "remembered" her first day of preschool or not?
Knowing the memories were false did not erase them and restore the true memories. I have argued (ad naseum) that Buffy et al were unable to freely choose to accept Dawn as long as they had the false memories.
Are the memories about Dawn truely false?
My memories... my mom's?
We built them.
Personally I don't think the monks are particularly trustworthy narrators, but I can't think of any evidence to support the notion that the monks inserted Dawn into the timestream in the past rather than in BvD.
Posted Mar 6, 2004 @ 7:38 PM
Yes, that's it in a nutshell. Thank you for expressing it in a more coherent way than I ever could. :)
I believe the mere intelectual knowledge that the memories are false does not counter the emotional weight of the false memories.
Aside from the plot device, the whole fake memories thing basically served as an analogy to adoption, but I found the analogy quite flawed, because literally fake memories do not exactly equal to the memories the adopted child might consider as "fake" in light of finding out about his/her adoption. Dawn found out that she was "not real", but she didn't feel it. I fail to understand how such a thing is possible to feel when you still have the memories. Whereas if the fake memories were erased and real ones retained, it could have been treated it as an analogy of never-to-be-cured amnesia, which, IMO, would have worked better. And restore the BtVS canon of the first four years in its place.
As it was, IMO the writers failed to address the fact that fake memories wasn't only Dawn's problem. They were implanted into everyone elses heads as well, but somehow Scoobies were pretty okay with the news that they remembered at least a few years incorrectly. And they didn't even begin to speculate about a possibility to, you know, find out what really happened in their lives during all that time. So, the way I saw it, technically fake memories pretty much threw out four years of characterization out of the window and also failed to be a convincing excuse for... well, anything.
And I should probably stop right here, 'cause I sense season 5 biterness coming and that's not really the place for it.
Edited by Driade, Mar 6, 2004 @ 7:39 PM.
Posted Mar 6, 2004 @ 9:05 PM
Posted Mar 6, 2004 @ 11:02 PM
Posted Mar 6, 2004 @ 11:07 PM
Heh - I dunno - personally, I think Dawn's metaphor is structured the same way a lot of BtVS metaphors are structured. As such, I don't necessarily think it's flawed. I think a huge facet of the show is taking a real-world emotional issue and dressing it up in magnified, supernatural clothing. I find that metaphors in BtVS often take figurative emotional issues and shape them into larger and more literal problems. To throw out a few examples...
I found the analogy quite flawed, because literally fake memories do not exactly equal to the memories the adopted child might consider as "fake" in light of finding out about his/her adoption.
IMO, the notion of the Slayer is pretty much a metaphor for being an outsider. A real-world girl who's an outcast might *feel* like she's a freak. Where as our girl Buffy is quite *literally* a freak. The show cleverly magnifies the issue for the sake of exploring it. Buffy's scenario serves as a larger-than-life reflection of an actual issue.
Another example - Marcie the Invisible Girl - she serves as a metaphor for being ignored. A real-world girl who goes unnoticed might *feel* as though she's invisible. Where as in the show, Marcie is quite *literally* invisible. Once again, it's a real-world emotional issue amped up and made more forceful.
Which brings us to Dawn's scenario - which is a metaphor for adoption. A real-world girl who finds out she's adopted might *feel* as though she's been living a lie. Where as in the show, Dawn was quite *literally* living a lie. Yet again, the show has taken an actual emotional issue, and has made it larger, more literal, and more potent.
So I don't necessarily see Dawn's scenario as a flawed analogy. If anything, I see it as indicative of what BtVS always does - i.e., the way the show takes an actual emotional issue, and expands it so that it's more literal, more potent, and more tragic. I mean - if the metaphors mapped exactly onto their real-world counterparts?... well then they'd no longer be metaphors.
So I dunno - I guess my perspective differs from yours.
Edited by Lil Miss Muffet, Mar 6, 2004 @ 11:18 PM.
Posted Mar 7, 2004 @ 9:09 AM
I know Joyce seemed to get the hang of Buffy's Slaying to a degree but the arrival of Dawn seemed like something that should've been dealt with in much greater depth on her behalf as well IMO.
Edited by DeeeDee, Mar 7, 2004 @ 9:11 AM.
Posted Mar 7, 2004 @ 1:20 PM
What was Joyce actually doing on the day she remembers giving birth to Dawn?
I don't think memories work quite like that, even ones that haven't been tampered with. There are a number of things that I remember very vividly from my past, and I may even have a date that I associate with them, but I can't remember everything about that day. After a while significant memories detach themselves from their surroundings and exist in sort of isolation. It's entirely possible that Joyce retains her actual memories of the day she thinks she gave birth to Dawn, but doesn't realise that they happened on that particular day (if she ever accesses them at all, because they're likely to be pretty mundane memories). I think it's made clear, when Buffy says that even though Dawn was always around, it's only recently that she's become such a pain, that the monks basically tacked Dawn-memories onto the real ones. Buffy remembers all her patrols, all her fights (with the caveat that most memories fade over time and are only retrieved following a specific trigger) but she also thinks she remembers that Dawn was around then, she just didn't impact on her life much. The implication is that the monks didn't actually wipe or tamper with any existing memories, they just added Dawn onto them. And given that the human memory really doesn't work with dates and timelines - you need a journal to keep all that sort of thing straight - then there's no problem with inserting new memories of eg. giving birth, without wiping the memory of what really happened on that day. It wouldn't surprise me if a lot of Dawn's memories only exist in the pages of the Dawnmeister chronicles. Certainly when I go back and read my old diaries I am constantly amazed at how much of that stuff I'd forgotten, or can't properly remember even with the prompting of the diary entries. In the same way I often can't recall how people from my childhood looked without the prompting of photos.
Posted Mar 12, 2004 @ 8:34 AM
Posted Mar 12, 2004 @ 8:46 AM
I've been wondering about something. After S5 is or isn't Dawn still "The Key"?
Yes, Dawn still is the Key. The Key's special dimension destroying powers only work once a century so she's got a lot of mystical energy and nothing to do with it. I bet if she tryed to learn magick she'd be stronger than Willow.
Posted Mar 12, 2004 @ 9:35 AM
Yes, Dawn still is the Key. The Key's special dimension destroying powers only work once a century so she's got a lot of mystical energy and nothing to do with it.
There is, however, a throwaway line from Dawn in S6 in which she says "I'm not the Key anymore." Not that she would actually know, of course.
However, the writers have said in interviews (back when S6 premiered) that Dawn is no longer the Key. There's nothing to back this up in the show itself other than Dawn's self-proclamation. Another sign of how the writers started to prefer to tell us the story through interviews rather than through the actual show. I'm just going to assume she IS the Key. Regardless of their claims, your version is better.
Posted Mar 12, 2004 @ 12:17 PM
Edited by Bebop, Mar 12, 2004 @ 12:18 PM.
Posted Mar 12, 2004 @ 2:54 PM
Edited by DeeeDee, Mar 12, 2004 @ 2:54 PM.
Posted Mar 12, 2004 @ 6:07 PM
I figure if Dawn still had mystical energies from her Keyness, then Willow probably would have drained her to create the magic portal in Get It Done.
I remember the last time I watched the episode, I noted that Dawn seemed to be knocked out at the time. This might have interfered with Willow's power sucking.
Posted Mar 12, 2004 @ 7:04 PM
I had thought Dawn retained her "keyness" especially when her sudden ability to translate Sumerian popped up which I thought was just some facet of her "specialness" (for lack of a better term).
And yet the book was translating itself magically, it wasn't, I thought, anything special that Dawn was doing. Kennedy could have been reading it for all it mattered, since it was the books magic doing it.
As for the Key bit, it was bizarre how they utterly forgot about that, or dismissed it with Dawn's words, 'I'm not the Key anymore, or, if I am, I don't open anything.' I would have preferred if some sort of development had come from that, as long as they were keeping the character around.
It was the worst of both worlds. Dawn was still around, and the only thing that could have made her interesting and worth keeping around was dropped like a dead hedgehog. Meanwhile, interesting characters are either killed, or sidelined until the actors leave the show out of boredom.
I really would have liked if they had addressed the fake memories thing as well. Tabula Rasa and the Tara mindwipage would have been good places to bring that up. Tara's freakout over Willow altering her memories *should* have had some sort of powerful resonance with Dawn, since that's all her past is, fake memories inserted into her friends and family's minds. If Tara is all upset about the one, does it follow that she'd blindly accept Dawn's existence?
Posted Mar 12, 2004 @ 9:33 PM
If Tara is all upset about the one, does it follow that she'd blindly accept Dawn's existence?
I think that would've been a really interesting POV to have been explored with the bond that was shown between Tara-Dawn. I'd have thought there might be some conflict in Tara's feelings on the matter and it could've given AB some good material to work with.
But Set did Dawn learn Sumerian, before or after reading from the book? Otherwise where did the ability of her to translate languages come from all of the sudden?
Posted Mar 13, 2004 @ 12:49 AM
Posted Apr 22, 2004 @ 2:26 PM
Posted Apr 28, 2004 @ 11:26 AM
Posted Apr 28, 2004 @ 11:29 AM
Posted Apr 28, 2004 @ 1:50 PM
Posted Apr 28, 2004 @ 4:02 PM
Keep watching, it will be cleared up in the next few episodes. Your supposed to be confused.
D'oh. I was afraid of that. Wait . . . I already know the spoilerage about Dawn being the key and all - is that what I'm supposed to wait to find out? I want to know if I missed something along the lines of an explanation for Buffy having a long lost sister.
OT: Can you tell that I have, like, absolutely no patience?
Posted Apr 28, 2004 @ 6:21 PM
Posted Apr 28, 2004 @ 8:06 PM
I think that was a lot of people's reaction(like mine) who have just seen certain episodes or seasons out of order. That explaination episode of Dawn's that everyone talked about will be on Thursday 5pmEST and again on Friday 8amEST.
Where the bloody 'ell did she come from?
jensgirl: I love seeing new people discovering the show. If you want, you could do what quite a few newcomers have done and post some of your opinions of each episode in each of the Seasons thread. We always love reading what newbies think of each episode,character,arcs,seasons, etc. janedoe4 has done it, very well I might add.
Edited by valny, Apr 28, 2004 @ 8:07 PM.
Posted Apr 29, 2004 @ 11:29 AM