735 replies to this topic

[Cleo256]

A question for someone who's read "The Lives of Dax" more recently than I: Does Tobin Dax's story fit with Enterprise continuity? I seem to recall that in the story, Dax is working on a prototype transporter, and his ship is boarded by Romulans. That doesn't seem to fit with Enterprise, where we have a functional, if somewhat untrusted transporter and we're only vaguely aware of the Romulans.

Strictly, of course, the Trill have a different history from the humans, and maybe they were working on transporters later, or meeting Romulans sooner. But I can't shake the feeling that it doesn't quite fit. Can anyone who's read it since Enterprise started give their opinion on this?

[akg]

I don't think it does. I was reading Dax on a business trip so I couldn't come and discuss (and then I forgot) but I remember thinking it didn't make sense. I'm pretty sure Tobin claimed to be the first person to be transported and his project had Human and Vulcan team members and was being conducted on a Human crewed ship.

They didn't recognize the Romulans for what they are, did they? Tobin's friend noticed something through a face mask but it's possible it's a case like the Ferengi. Records were lost. I guess it's fanwankable but I'd have to reread to be sure.

[nelamm]

What's to say they aren't in contact with Trill in the ENT era? (I'm not sure of the dates for Tobin.)

Edited by nelamm, Jan 5, 2004 @ 9:23 PM.

[starri]

If I'm remembering right, the Dax symbiont was born and joined to Lela not that far from now (2004). A normal Trill lifespan seems to be about 100+ years (barring accident or violence, as with Torias, Joran, and Jadzia), so assuming Lela, Tobin, Audrid, and Emony lived as long as Curzon did, Dax would have passed from Lela to Tobin maybe 15 or so years before the ENT era.

[Cleo256]

What's to say they aren't in contact with Trill in the ENT era?

Nothing. "The Lives of Dax" posits Trill as a very early Federation member. They seem to be nearly as important as Earth and Vulcan. Nothing in canon seems to indicate that, but nothing really contradicts it, either (The book also makes a point of how the Trill are keeping the symbionts secret from everyone else, to try to fit with TNG's "The Host").

But that's not really the problem I have. The problem I have has to do with the chronology of technology and Romulans.

[nelamm]

That's what I was aiming at- there's no reason Tobin couldn't be working on the transporter that wound up on NX-01.

On the other hand, there was a comic- actually a graphic novel, "Forgiveness," Wildstorm, October 2001- which had a human inventing the transporter in 2052. But I'm not sure if that version was supposed to have lasted.

[Cleo256]

Except that I just flipped through the first few pages of the story, and Tobin refers to the Earth-Romulan war as being in the past. So that would have to put it post-Enterprise.

There's probably a way to wank it. For example, do the Vulcans have the transporter? Maybe after they saw the humans had it, the Vulcans and Trill worked together to make one. Ultimately, though, I think we just have to admit that Tobin Dax's story was basically the first to explore this era, and didn't have Enterprise as a canon reference point, so some of their details were off.

[akg]

Maybe after they saw the humans had it, the Vulcans and Trill worked together to make one.

But Tobin and his Vulcan friend were working on a human ship and Tobin was pretty nervous about being the first person to transport so I don't think humans had the technology already. It seemed to be a joint research effort between the 3 races.

[starri]

I haven't read Lives of Dax, but could we wank that he was nervous about being the first Joined Trill to be transported?

[LadyBunbury]

The line goes - from my paperback edition of The Lives of Dax, page 118- as follows:

The first humanoid ever to be transported is going to be carrying two very large bombs with him, Tobin mused, shaking his head.

So the book directly contradicts ENT-canon. (Part of me would much rather listen to Tobin Dax than to Bermaga, though.)

Edited by LadyBunbury, Jan 7, 2004 @ 3:23 AM.

[nqllisi]

Ha! Sadly, I believe on-screen canon supercedes anything in the books, even if the books are better-written, more thought-out, and far more interesting.

Speaking of which, I finally started Unity last night. I'm just getting into it, but my first impression is, "Yay!"

[starri]

It brings the "Yay!," it brings the sniffles; there is much goodness. This is another one of those rare creatures: apart from being a good ST novel, it's just a good novel.

[nelamm]

Oh, starri, that wanking raises so many canon issues...

Bombs? Can you explain?

[LadyBunbury]

Yeah, umm ...

These Romulans have come aboard in attempt to steal the warp technology that Tobin and this Vulcan scientist guy have been working on ... and Tobin gets the bright idea that if he blows up the engines, the Romulans can't steal it.

It's not the only thing in the book that contradicts ENT canon. Like, I think ENT pretty much establishes that the Romulans have warp technology already (in "Minefield", although I could be mistaken), whereas in the book, they apparently don't (although possibly they just don't have *as good of* warp technology, which I think isn't that big of a stretch).

[nelamm]

That's also a TOS/ENT contradiction. The latest Star Trek Communicator quotes a line (not sure from who) about how continuity is nice, but sometimes plot neccessity overrides it.

[akg]

I've decided to start reading the DS9 Relaunch books now that I've finished my dvds. According to a list posted above, I need to read one of the books from the Gateways series. Is it ok if I just read the one? Do I need any background before starting?

Someone above said something about reading "the pertinent chapter of Gateways #7." What does this mean? If I don't need the whole book, I'll find a chair at Barnes and Noble. My amazon wishlist is long enough.

If anyone wants share the love emails on DS9 books, let me know. I'm trying to get them used but, with shipping, new isn't that much more expensive.

[PoliticGeek Pro]

I believe you can read only the DS9 book of gateways, and the pertinent chapter of #7. And have it make perfectly sense.

The chapter in question is basically the last chapter of the book proper. You cannot go without that chapter, and it's quite long.

The structure of the Gateways books is that the 6 first books explore the same problem, the Gateways, that is, from the angle of the 6 different sub-brands of Trek (incl. Challenger and The New Frontier). You will be somewhat spoilered for the TOS and TNG books if you read the DS9 one first, but not in any big way, if I recall correctly.

The seventh book is the last chapter of each of the previous books. The TNG chapter is the last one in this seventh book, so in the end, everything is up to Picard and his crew. (Not a spoiler.)

(The whole gateways series is actually readable, YMMV.)

[akg]

Thanks. I read the first Millenium (the Fall of Terek Nor, I think) during the Super Bowl last night. I was expecting it to take place after What You Leave Behind so I was surprised to see Sisko. It was fun to place it in the series' timeline by what was going on. I'm looking forward to starting part 2 tonight.

The two Avatar books start the Relaunch officially, right?

[PoliticGeek Pro]

Right. (Then it's Abyss. Then Gateways, MG1-4, Rising Son, Unity, and then a very long time to wait...)

[starri]

You may also want to check out Andy Robinson's Garak biography A Stitch in Time, which, while not part of the Relaunch proper, is considered part of its canon.

[Cleo256]

And the Martok books are a great read, although not directly related to the rest of the series. (Err, unless they tie in in Unity, which I haven't gotten to yet).

[PoliticGeek Pro]

They dont't. The Martok books are followed up on in Diplomatic implausibility, The Brave and the Bold and the following IKS Gorkon books. And word to what Starri said and what Cleo said.

[Mr Sneer]

I went to Barnes and Noble yesterday looking for a DS9 relaunch fix and saw that there's an ENT book out - Daedalus. It's Trip-centric.

Anyone planning on getting this, wait until May. It's a part one and part two is released then. Very irritating to get to the end and then having to wait for the next part. It's not too bad, though, I say cautiously.

[akg]

I have Stitch in Time and the book written by Quark (the 34th Rule I think). I'll have to look for Martok's. I think I can get my library to order the Avatar books from a nearby town. Hopefully, they'll come before I finish what I have.

Thanks for the recommendations.

[nelamm]

I was wondering something along the lines of what starri said: Does every Pocket Books book treat every other book as canon? I imagine it's too much to ask authors to keep everything straight- but do the editors make sure it all fits into one universe?

[RiverThames]

I know that they try to avoid mentioning the Shatner-line of books featuring a resurrected post-Generations Kirk in the 24th century. So that stuff is its own canon that isn't connected to the others.

However, I think in general, they try and respect what's been established in the other books, as long as the shows haven't specifically contradicted it.

[PoliticGeek Pro]

What RiverThames said seems to be the case.

But, as long as the authors sometimes cannot avoid continuity problems inside a single book (like in IKS Gorkon, where the travel times conspicuously, and annoyingly, do not add up), continuity errors between books and sub-series are very much to be expected every now and then, when there is a plot to be served.

[starri]

I imagine it's too much to ask authors to keep everything straight- but do the editors make sure it all fits into one universe?

Not always, but they've gotten a lot better about keep the series internally consistant. Since they've decided to use them to push the story forward instead of just making them a cheap way to make a little money for Viacom.

[akg]

I'm reading the Millennium trilogy right now and was wondering about the Grigari (I think that's how it's spelled). They're assisting the Ascendency and seem to be very proficient in genetic engineering. I don't remember them being mentioned on any of the shows but I'm not sure. Are they an invented race for the books or have they appeared before?

[Cleo256]

I believe they were invented for the books. They are also important to the video game DS9: The Fallen (I got distracted from playing that before I finished it, though). That game has the same basic plot as the books, although it's been a while since I read the books, so I can't be sure how closely the plots match.