myintermail
Sep 29, 2008 @ 11:13 pm
They definitely could, but please start a new thread in General Gabbery about Gay Survivors or something like that, since it's getting a bit off-topic if you want to compare and contrast between different seasons.
Since Survivor Gabon is playing up Charlie, the openly gay man who has a crush on his tribe mate hence forming an alliance, I felt homosexuality is hyped up the most compared to previous seasons. I would also like to discuss a few issues about gay men and women featured in Survivor such as:
*How well they do in the game: Physically and the Social aspect of it. Some analysis would be good.
*How they are portrayed to the audience: Positive? Stereotypical?
*Comparisons between gays and lesbians (tie-in to gender issues)
Hopefully this thread will have some healthy discussions.
WannaBeBad2
Sep 30, 2008 @ 1:38 am
Just found an interesting interview with Gabon's Charlie on
Adovate.com talking about getting on the show, as well as a connection another gay reality contestant, Clay Aiken. One interesting quote was:
Interviewer: The whole idea of being gay while you’re on the reality show, though, is a tough one. Do you worry about being compared to any past gay contestants?
Charlie: I was a little nervous going in that I’d be compared to Todd, who won a few seasons ago. When I was watching Todd’s season in China, I really liked Todd a lot, but I never thought I was similar to him at all. Then going through casting, it seemed like people have such closed-minded ideas of gay people that you fit a gay person down to brown hair and brown eyes and they immediately assume you’re the other gay person who sat there with brown hair and brown eyes. So I definitely wanted to go in there and prove that I was different than Todd.
So, it does sound like the producers do have a "gay contestant" mold they like to fill, especially with the last few seasons having a gay white male (excluding JP and Brad from Cook Islands, in which the show was trying to be more diversified). It's good that Charlie was aware of this. In the article, he talks about having seen all of the previous seasons, and in fact he wanted to be more like a Cirie rather than a Todd, meaning that while he wouldn't be the immunity powerhouse, he'd hold his own in competitions and have a good social and strategic game.
Ironically, he also mentions:
Interviewer: Reality shows have been criticized in the past for casting the token gay character. Did you have any worries about that?
Charlie: On Survivor, a lot have romantic interests out there and that distracts them from winning the game. I knew I was never going to be tempted out there because I was going to be the only gay person, so if anything, I knew it was just going to help my game. But it does add a little bit of stress being the only gay character and knowing you’re going to be representing that demographic.
Kinda funny that he thought he wouldn't be tempted since his main scenes so far have been of him fawning over Marcus. However, as a gay man myself who has gone on nearly month-long group trips through other countries, I know how he feels being the only gay around.
myintermail
Sep 30, 2008 @ 5:28 am
Interesting, but Charlie was the only contestant I know to develop a romantic attachment in the game. The rest, especially Todd focused a lot in the game strategy and not bothered to have any romantic interest at all.
I bring this post over to this thread as it seems appropriate to discuss here:
IMO, Charlie would be the most stereotypical gay man among the other gay contestants in the bunch of gay contestants they had on the show. Others such as Chet, Todd, Rafe, Brad (His homosexuality didn't play up at all that season), Brandon (Africa) have some variations of a homosexual male, but Charlie seems to check all the boxes to fit to that stereotype.
Personally I dislike people being put into stereotypes, but the editors seem to shove the typical gay man's edit to Charlie. And I have yet to see him breaking the mold.
Could someone list the openly gay men and women that is featured on this show and their performance in the game?
Eponah
Sep 30, 2008 @ 2:29 pm
Other than the ones listed, the only other openly homosexual (or bisexual) people I recall were Scout, Ami, Richard Hatch, and Coby.
butheircousins
Sep 30, 2008 @ 5:28 pm
For a second there I thought you (Eponah) said that Colby was openly out, but then realized you wrote Coby. Whew! I was like I don't ever remember reading that Colby was out n about.
WannaBeBad2
Sep 30, 2008 @ 8:50 pm
Well, clearly the biggest gay relationship in the show has always been Probst's man-crush on the alpha male of the season, starting with Colby.
butheircousins
Oct 1, 2008 @ 5:32 am
I do remember Jeff having a huge man-crush on Andrew Savage (Pearl Islands) although Savage is straight. So, I'm not too sure if that counts. I liked Savage and actually would have liked him to go further. I can't remember Jeff's other man-crushes. Anyone?
myintermail
Oct 1, 2008 @ 5:40 am
Well, clearly the biggest gay relationship in the show has always been Probst's man-crush on the alpha male of the season, starting with Colby.
Lol, do you remember who else Probst was crazy about each season?
EDIT: Colby is straight too, IIRC.
So the list of homosexual contestants are as follows:
-Borneo: Richard Hatch (Won)
-Africa: Brandon (Jury)
-Vanuatu: Scout, Ami (Jury)
-Palau: Coby (Jury)
-Guatemala: Rafe (Jury)
-Cook Islands: Brad (Jury)
-China: Todd (Won)
-Micronesia: Chet (Pre-Jury)
With exception of Chet, all of them did well in the game. But I vaguely remember how most of them play in the game strategic-wise and their social game (Other than Hatch, Todd and Chet). Chet is obviously have zero strategy in the game (he was just "there"), Hatch founded the idea of an alliance and Todd strike an alliance early in the game and it stuck 90% of the time.
WannaBeBad2
Oct 2, 2008 @ 3:34 am
Cook Islands also had JP, who was out 3rd just after the first tribe shuffle. He wasn't as out back then, but he's been super out as a model on the Janice Dickinson Modeling Agency.
It's interesting to see the long gap between Africa and Vanuatu, whereas only Fiji and Panama have not out gay contestants since then (although part of me had wishful thinking for Aras... I thought he was cute).
Well, clearly the biggest gay relationship in the show has always been Probst's man-crush on the alpha male of the season, starting with Colby.
Lol, do you remember who else Probst was crazy about each season?
Yeah, Probst always likes the alpha males, and they are the straight ones. Terry, Ozzy, James are probably some later examples of his favorites. On the flip side, he always rags on the players he sees as super weak (Chet, Lydia).
Brakchi
Oct 2, 2008 @ 7:13 pm
The shameful part was when Ami kissing her then girlfriend was edited out and Burnett defended his decision in Entertainment Weekly. As far as most sapphic tinged moment since then I'd go with Natalie's interest in Parvati culminating in the tribal council.
Aisley
Oct 3, 2008 @ 12:09 pm
I don't like the fact that it seems that they are filling some sort of quota. We've seen the typical stereotypes over and over...such as:
The Prissy Gay Man (Why not have a regular gay man on the show instead of someone so prissy?)
The Angry Black Man (Black men should be ticked off)
The Dumb Blonde (Although Sugar isn't dumb and she's not really a blonde) hehe
The Bitch
etc...etc...
O2Sean
Oct 4, 2008 @ 5:50 am
It's interesting to see the long gap between Africa and Vanuatu,
Marquesas, the season right after Africa, had a gay man (John). Then Thailand and Amazon had no openly gay contestants.
The Prissy Gay Man (Why not have a regular gay man on the show instead of someone so prissy?)
Brad wasn't prissy. Brad got very little screentime, but he didn't fit stereotypes.
Survivor sees people as stereotypes. They assume the audience is full of idiots who can only take a very limited vision.
In spite of that, I would say that Todd, Chet, Coby, and Charlie, to name some of the most recent gay men on the show who had storylines, have been extremely different in personality and in gameplay.
myintermail
Oct 4, 2008 @ 12:46 pm
In spite of that, I would say that Todd, Chet, Coby, and Charlie, to name some of the most recent gay men on the show who had storylines, have been extremely different in personality and in gameplay.
Can you briefly explain how Coby & Rafe played in the game? I hardly remember they had a good strategy in the seasons they played.
Also, from the list they were only 2 lesbians compared to 8 gay men (John from Marquesas included) featured in Survivor. Is it harder to find homosexual women to become a tokenistic cast or lesbians are cast by chance?
O2Sean
Oct 4, 2008 @ 2:13 pm
Can you briefly explain how Coby & Rafe played in the game? I hardly remember they had a good strategy in the seasons they played.
Coby didn't have any significant strategy that I can remember, aside from early attempts to be the "social butterfly". He soon isolated himself because of how much he hated Tom. He only stayed to jury because Koror kept winning challenges. He seemed to enjoy the challenges much more than the strategy.
Rafe's strategy was to be the nice guy, to build an alliance, to work with Steph and use her to get rid of all the threats to him. Steph took the backlash because those were her friends and allies and because she wasn't very likeable. They also happened to be people Steph might have had a chance to beat in the final two. That way he knew if she won the last immunity she'd take him to the end. It was a good strategy, but he messed up in keeping Danni over Lydia. Telling Danni she didn't have to take him to final two was also a mistake, but I think the big mistake was letting her get to final three in the first place, because even if he hadn't released her from her word, she might have still voted him out.
WannaBeBad2
Oct 4, 2008 @ 3:19 pm
Marquesas, the season right after Africa, had a gay man (John). Then Thailand and Amazon had no openly gay contestants.
Yeah, that's what I thought. I remembered Boston Rob having a comment about "the gay guy" that set an initial dislike for some viewers against him. I forgot the comment and couldn't find the reference, so I left John off the list until I knew someone else would pick it up. Good call!
I do remember, though, that that comment was one of the suggestions Twoppers gave for possible reasons why the several gay racers on TAR 7 all despised Boston Rob. That, or his camera mugging and use of Survivor tactics on TAR. Their angry obsession with Rob made Patrick, Lynn, and Alex all less appealing that year. However, it is interesting to note the variable numbers of gay contestants (either as couples, friends, or family members) each season on TAR compared with the usual one or none on Survivor (excluding having 2 on Vanuatu and CI).
myintermail
Oct 5, 2008 @ 9:49 pm
Thanks for the info, O2Sean and WannaBeBad2.
Personally I am not a fan of stereotyping people regardless of race, religion, sexuality and gender too. The constant push of the TPTB of shoving gay men stereotypes to the audiences' throats just confirms the false image of a gay men "should" act, particularly people who never interact with actual homosexuals.
That being said, should TPTB have a tokenistic cast of a homosexual contestant just like they have for ethnic minorities to have diversity, regardless they fit to the stereotype?
sienna gold
Oct 7, 2008 @ 4:57 pm
Okay, I give. I thought and thought, and I can't remember....Whose Brad?
Wait. is Brad from Fiji? That's the only one I remember, and he was gay?
No: I don't want a token homosexual contestant, because quite frankly, I don't want a token anyone contestant. I want ppl who can play the game.
WannaBeBad2
Oct 7, 2008 @ 8:00 pm
Brad was on Cook Islands, as was JP. He was part of the big tribe of 8 that lost all the challenges to the Aitu 4. He wasn't very prominent, compared with people like Jonathan, Candace, Ozzy, Yul, or even Cao Boi, so it's understandable that he'd fade from your memory. He did make the jury, though, (esp. since the jury was expanded that season).
O2Sean
Oct 7, 2008 @ 10:09 pm
I don't think most of the gay players who have been cast have been there just to be tokens. With some exceptions (Chet most obviously, and Coby and maybe Brad), many of the gay players have tried to play the game all out. Some of them even dominated in both challenges and strategy. I think every group on Survivor is cast based on stereotypes, which does annoy me, but when I compare Survivor's casting to, say, Real World casting (Tyler, Davis), I realize how much worse it could be.
I mostly remember Brad because of the reprehensible way he was treated by his tribe, especially the "nancy boy" comment from Nate.
sienna gold
Oct 8, 2008 @ 11:34 am
You know. I still can not place him at all. Cook Islands... okay that's Yul's season.... okay and naturally,stupid CBS changed the website so you can't even see past seasons of Survivor Pictures anymore. This is bad, I usually can remember most of the casts. (which in itself, really sad LOL).
O2Sean
Oct 8, 2008 @ 2:49 pm
sienna gold
Oct 8, 2008 @ 7:16 pm
Oh, HIM!
Okay. Thank you. I remember him now. Geeze. That was driving me insane. Again. I didn't think he was gay :)
myintermail
Oct 9, 2008 @ 5:37 am
I don't think most of the gay players who have been cast have been there just to be tokens. With some exceptions (Chet most obviously, and Coby and maybe Brad), many of the gay players have tried to play the game all out. Some of them even dominated in both challenges and strategy.
You can add Todd and Charlie to the list of tokenistic gay cast.
While I was fine to most of the homosexual contestants in all of the seasons, I find Charlie extremely annoying. Not that he checked all the boxes for a typical gay male, but 50% of his confessionals are about worshipping Marcus drives me crazy. I certainly don't remember anyone else who is involved in showmances (straight or otherwise) does that.
PhilMarlowe2
Oct 10, 2008 @ 9:01 am
One of my friends works with the Survivor casting people and she said that they looked long and hard for this season's "gay" before casting Charlie. Apparently, they said they were looking for someone who was visibly gay - so that if someone were just tuning in, they would immediately know that he was the gay guy, she was the mother, he was the nerd, etc. It was interesting because my friend said she saw casting tapes of really interesting, dynamic gay men - who were not cast at least in part because they were not obviously gay enough. It does sound annoying but I actually think Survivor does do a pretty job with diverse casting (at least, compared other shows) and men like Brad, JP and even (gag) Rafe have shown a willingness to portray a wide array of gay types.
Valenti
Oct 10, 2008 @ 12:30 pm
But I think that kind of thing ultimately hurts minorities, because it plays up stereotypes. That's why I loved Cook Islands, because there were no 'token' characters in terms of race, and those who were minorities (Jessica, Brad, Caoboi) had interesting dimensions to them.
Unfortunately survivor seems to have regressed back into casting stereotypes (geeky Asian, fem gay guy, dumb blonde, cartoony villain) which unfortunately grabs ratings because it makes people more "memorable". Shame.
O2Sean
Oct 11, 2008 @ 8:35 am
You can add Todd and Charlie to the list of tokenistic gay cast.
I'm not sure if I'd say Todd was a token gay because they never even said onair that he was gay. They stripped away anything about him as a person to make him into the one-dimensional schemer.
I think that Survivor has a very specific edit in mind with Charlie and most of his actual game is meaningless. He does have to own his embarrassing adoration of Marcus, but from the clips and the interviews that aren't on the episodes, his game is much more than simply saying "I love Marcus".
I think Survivor wants to go the laziest route this season, either through lack of inspiration or through an attempt to get new viewers. That means we don't see anything of Charlie beyond "I love Marcus", just as we don't see anything of most of the players beyond the most unimaginative caricatures. I think some producer got a good laugh at the idea of a gay man having a crush on a straight man, and they thought this would be great to show over and over.
Or maybe this will lead to some big point for Marcus and Charlie, and Charlie eventually knocks him out of the game, or Marcus betrays him, I don't know. I'd just like to see something beyond what we've had so far. Their relationship is more complex than what the episodes have shown so far.
That's why I loved Cook Islands, because there were no 'token' characters in terms of race, and those who were minorities (Jessica, Brad, Caoboi) had interesting dimensions to them.
One of the reasons I didn't care for Cook Islands was I thought through either casting or editing, they very rigidly enforced racial stereotypes. Lazy Stephannie, obnoxious Nate, meek Becky, superperfect Yul, wacky crazy Caoboi. Then there was Candice/Parvati/Adam, who all reinforced what some would see as stereotypes of whites (Adam the dumb jock, Candice the princess).
Brad could have had interesting dimensions, but instead he was invisible.
Sadly, in more recent years, it seems like Survivor may only want to bring up a gay man's sexuality if it means viewers can laugh at him, or see it as some type of novelty act (like Charlie). It's very rare that gay people can just be openly gay, matter-of-factly. I do think Survivor has had a fascinating and in terms of personality diverse group of gay men, but I don't know how many of them were ever actually shown as being out.
myintermail
Oct 11, 2008 @ 12:50 pm
I'm not sure if I'd say Todd was a token gay because they never even said onair that he was gay. They stripped away anything about him as a person to make him into the one-dimensional schemer.
I remember he told someone in his tribe (Leslie?) or said it somewhere when he introduced himself to his tribe mates in episode 1. After that his sexuality was not brought up at all, and neither of his actions that checked the check list of a stereotypical gay male.
He does have to own his embarrassing adoration of Marcus, but from the clips and the interviews that aren't on the episodes, his game is much more than simply saying "I love Marcus".
So far as we have seen on the show, Charlie is portrayed as one-dimensional love sick puppy who falls for a guy who will not be attracted to him. Heck, some of his insider videos are more in-depth confessionals of how wonderful Marcus is. We never got to see how he performs in challenges, what strategy he adopted in the game and who he interacts with more (aside from Marcus) and his opinions about his tribemates (again, besides Marcus).
Usually I'm fine with a gay castaway in the show. But Charlie's actions and how he is portrayed so far has painted a bad name for the homosexual community as people who are unfamiliar with the gay culture might think gays are hyper effeminate, love-sick and in some level, annoying.
s the all mighty
Oct 11, 2008 @ 9:56 pm
I'm not sure if I'd say Todd was a token gay because they never even said onair that he was gay. They stripped away anything about him as a person to make him into the one-dimensional schemer.
I'm pretty sure this is incorrect,
02Sean; if you recall the beginning of the season, they introduced Todd as a 'gay Mormon flight attendant'. So if you mean that it was not discussed between Todd and his tribemates on the show, you could be right- I seem to recall there were a few references made, but I could be wrong- but it was not like Brad of the CI season, where the only reference was from Nate's stealth homophobia with the 'nancy boy' comment.
Speaking of Brad: in a few of his interviews, he mentioned that not only was he out to his tribe, he basically had a tribe meeting around the firepit where he told them all. Which I cannot imagine somehow did not get filmed. This is not the RW/RR Challenge;
everything gets filmed.
Survivor is essentially run on stereotypes and storylines; unfortunately, gay men and women who do not fit into a neat, familiar box or whose sexuality does not directly help along whatever arc the producers are trying to push that season are ignored or marginalized.
O2Sean
Oct 11, 2008 @ 10:05 pm
I think Charlie's actions involving Marcus make him look silly and pathetic, but I don't think he's given the gay community a bad name. I think most viewers know that's just him, not gay men in general, particularly since he's the first gay man on the show to ever have a story which amounts to little more than having a crush on a straight man.
For me, the season which was the most pervasive in potential damage to the image of gays was All-Stars. Episode after episode had smarmy jokes from various men on Richard's tribe about having to sleep near a naked Richard. Richard himself was unbelievably smarmy and creepy, to me at least. Then there was the rubbing his genitals against Sue, and the ensuing debate over whether or not this was wrong, because he was gay so maybe it wasn't as bad as if he'd been straight. I always thought he did as much to reinforce stereotypes as to break them in his first season, but I never imagine just how awful he was going to be in All Stars.
netful
Oct 16, 2008 @ 11:04 am
What about Jeff Varner? He was one of my favorites.
DAngelus
Oct 18, 2008 @ 1:36 am
(Although Sugar isn't dumb and she's not really a blonde)
And her name's not "Sugar" and she's not a pin-up model. I hate when
Survivor just completely makes this shit up for the contestants, like "Dolly" the "shepherdess".
Apparently, they said they were looking for someone who was visibly gay - so that if someone were just tuning in, they would immediately know that he was the gay guy,
This is just sad. But it's clearly a trend…I felt Todd and Chet were more visibly "gay" than Ami/Rafe/JP/Brad and Charlie is a descent into straight cartoon. I've seen
Monty Python sketches that had more nuanced gay men in them, IMO.
I could have sworn we've had a lesbian since Vanuatu, but I guess not? The mind, it plays tricks. Oh, well.
O2Sean
Oct 18, 2008 @ 2:28 am
JP wasn't out while he was on the show. I do think Rafe was visibly gay (if that's the best description), and played into stereotypes at times (early on he wasn't good at challenges, and he was always much closer to the women than the men). Sadly, Brad was never visible, thanks to the editing, although the times we did see him, he seemed like a nice guy. In terms of being visibly gay, I think nearly every gay man ever on Survivor has fit into the stereotype. I guess the most unintentionally hilarious was the moment with Brandon (Survivor Africa) and the flaming arrow. If it's a trend, it's a trend they've had since the early seasons.
Very few lesbians have ever been cast on this show, so I'm not sure I could put Ami in with how gay men are cast or say who is or isn't more visibly gay than her. Ami fit her own set of stereotypes, as they edited her to be a man-hater and implied that she might want to turn the women. Ami said in an interview a while back that she was bisexual and that she also had no issues with men, but the show chose to sell her as a lesbian and played her up as a man-hater. And then, what do you know, the next time they have a woman on the show who had lesbian undertones (Natalie from Fans v Favorites), she's also presented as a man-hater.
And her name's not "Sugar" and she's not a pin-up model. I hate when Survivor just completely makes this shit up for the contestants, like "Dolly" the "shepherdess".
I thought she was a pin-up model and a waitress, and Sugar was the name she used at the place where she waits tables.
OttoZilch
Oct 18, 2008 @ 1:42 pm
Apparently, they said they were looking for someone who was visibly gay - so that if someone were just tuning in, they would immediately know that he was the gay guy, she was the mother, he was the nerd, etc. It was interesting because my friend said she saw casting tapes of really interesting, dynamic gay men
I think that's true of most contestants - they want the viewers to immediately have someone to root for or identify with and the success of easily defined, especially with the popularity of the mostly one-dimensional characters like the big strong grave-digger, the sassy couch-potato, the dolphin-like surfer-dude, the old nerd etc. TAR is even worse in preferring to pick the same old caricatures (the competitive blondes, the loving parent-child relationship etc.).
Guatemala's Brian is the most stereotypically gay contestant and he wasn't even gay! (on the flipside, Jeff Varner is generally considered to be at least bi).
Survivor seems to be the most positive of all the reality shows, even if it does rely on stereotypes most of the time. Other than Danny/Oswald and Ken, all the gay male teams on TAR have been nasty (Guidos, Reichen/Chip, Lynn/Alex), incompetent (John/Scott) or both (Tom/Terry). And the BB "bitchy gay early juror" castmember appeared five seasons in a row (BB5,6,7,8,9)
And her name's not "Sugar" and she's not a pin-up model. I hate when Survivor just completely makes this shit up for the contestants
Sugar said in her EW pre-show interview she was telling everyone she's a pin-up girl to hide the fact she's an actress (which makes me think she might be a dumb blond after all).
TWoP Pembleton
Oct 18, 2008 @ 7:37 pm
Discussion of Sugar is getting a little off-topic. Take it to her thread, please.
myintermail
Oct 19, 2008 @ 9:13 pm
Guatemala's Brian is the most stereotypically gay contestant and he wasn't even gay! (on the flipside, Jeff Varner is generally considered to be at least bi).
Really? I didn't take notice of Brain the last time. Sorry, I wasn't into Survivor at that time.
Speaking of bisexual contestants, their characteristics are pretty much more vague than gay or lesbian counterparts (well other than having interest to both genders, that is).
Novaya
Oct 20, 2008 @ 9:35 pm
FWIW, over at Sucks, Chet said that he, Natalie, and Ami were the gays on the show. So there's your Natalie for ya.
Kathy's also posted a funny story about herself during Ami's intro, and later how Jonathan labelled her the "Lesbian Hater" which is why she was chosen to be sent to Exile.
So there's more "gay stuff" that's not being shown. Kathy also said that Ami tried to finger Joel's bum to get him off the bags in the water-tackle challenge, and Joel had to scream at her to stop doing it.
Sucks is a wealth of info if you can spam through the crap.
raceguy120390
Oct 21, 2008 @ 8:25 pm
So there's more "gay stuff" that's not being shown. Kathy also said that Ami tried to finger Joel's bum to get him off the bags in the water-tackle challenge, and Joel had to scream at her to stop doing it.
I wonder if she or the production crew knew that that's an arrestable offence in Palau.
Now, off to try and get the image of Joel's naked ass out of my head...
SHOgirl
Oct 23, 2008 @ 11:31 am
I haven't noticed Charlie being particularly effeminate. This season, for some reason, I don't pick apart the episodes with a fine-tooth comb, though. Perhaps I should go back and rewatch.
Eponah
Oct 23, 2008 @ 10:48 pm
Well, considering its been mostly about Fang losing, they haven't shown very much of Charlie (or anyone else on Kota) to make those kind of observations.
newfoundma
Oct 24, 2008 @ 9:01 am
Personally I am not a fan of stereotyping people regardless of race, religion, sexuality and gender too. The constant push of the TPTB of shoving gay men stereotypes to the audiences' throats just confirms the false image of a gay men "should" act, particularly people who never interact with actual homosexuals.
That being said, should TPTB have a tokenistic cast of a homosexual contestant just like they have for ethnic minorities to have diversity, regardless they fit to the stereotype?
As stereotyped as gays may be on Survivor (and TAR), we can also break stereotypes on that show by doing well. I remember someone on TAR saying he wanted to show gays in a new light by doing well on the show, and I was like "Gays do pretty well on the show." It certainly isn't unheard of for gays on CBS reality TV to go far.
myintermail
Oct 24, 2008 @ 10:36 am
I remember someone on TAR saying he wanted to show gays in a new light by doing well on the show, and I was like "Gays do pretty well on the show." It certainly isn't unheard of for gays on CBS reality TV to go far.
Unfortunately TPTB refuses to promote the gays in that light on these shows. They didn't bother to see how well they are doing in the competition, they just cast them as comic reliefs so that the audience may poke fun of their stereotypes and antics on the show.
I haven't noticed Charlie being particularly effeminate.
Based on his every little confessional on the show he is extremely effeminate to me. He speaks in a way most people identify as gay (lisp?), especially whenever he talks to Marcus or talks about his lust over Marcus.
legaleagle44
Oct 24, 2008 @ 10:43 am
Based on his every little confessional on the show he is extremely effeminate to me. He speaks in a way most people identify as gay (lisp?), especially whenever he talks to Marcus or talks about his lust over Marcus.
I wouldn't even say that it's so much gay as that it's more the way that a 13-year-old girl talks about the latest teen heartthrob to be featured in
Tiger Beat.
QAF Rocks
Oct 24, 2008 @ 5:21 pm
Also, from the list they were only 2 lesbians compared to 8 gay men (John from Marquesas included) featured in Survivor. Is it harder to find homosexual women to become a tokenistic cast or lesbians are cast by chance?
Don't forget Sonja.
Sonja Christopher was the first contestant voted off the first season of Survivor, and she was a lesbian. Her sexual orientation wasn't revealed on the show, though, probably because she was booted out so early.
So, we've had exactly three lesbian contestants over the years: Ami, Scout and Sonja. I suppose the jury's still out on Natalie?
What about Jeff Varner? He was one of my favorites.
I always assumed
Jeff was gay, but I don't think he's out of the closet.
Here's a handy list of out gay and lesbian contestants from
Wikipedia:
Richard Hatch (Season 1, All-Stars)
Sonja Christopher (Season 1)
Brandon Quinton (Season 3)
John Carroll (Season 4)
Scout Cloud Lee (Season 9)
Ami Cusack (Season 9, Season 16)
Coby Archa (Season 10)
Rafe Judkins (Season 11)
J.P. Calderon (Season 13)
Brad Virata (Season 13)
Todd Herzog (Season 15)
Chet Welch (Season 16)
Charlie Herschell (Season 17)
whammo
Oct 25, 2008 @ 2:54 am
Usually I'm fine with a gay castaway in the show. But Charlie's actions and how he is portrayed so far has painted a bad name for the homosexual community as people who are unfamiliar with the gay culture might think gays are hyper effeminate, love-sick and in some level, annoying.
Harsh. I'll grant you love-sick, but that's about it.
Nothing that Charlie had done or said, certainly, has painted a bad name for the homosexual community. He's a young, out guy who's pretty hyper and high-strung who's out in the middle of nowhere on an adventure. He's somewhat giddy about his crush on a straight guy he's never gonna get (um, been there, done that -- haven't you?) and expresses it openly instead of engaging in furtive looks and silently nursing his broken heart. God knows he's not the Brawny paper towel man, but hyper effeminate, nah.
Cf. Chet, Brandon, Coby, Lynn/Alex, Tom/Terry. Besides, hyper effeminate does not equate with negative or shameful, even in reality TV land,and gay men deemed effeminate by the masses can also serve as role models.
See Cha Cha Cha.
The editing has, as it does with virtually all reality TV contestants, turned him into a one trick pony. Still, I find Charlie's story fascinating, and on some levels a breakthrough. Correct me if I'm wrong (and I'm certain someone will) but Charlie may be the first single gay male on reality TV (The Real World and its now-evil progeny excepted) who's actually demonstrated a libido and discussed a romantic and sexual attraction for another contestant. It may be overzealous and unrequited, but it's also very human.
And, putting aside Charlie's overly enthusiastic confessionals (note the term), I've been pleasantly surprised by the way the relationship between Charlie and Marcus has unfolded to date. Charlie's initial attraction is out there on the table for all to see, yet he and Marcus appeared to develop the one relationship they can have, a strong friendship. That must have required Charlie to put his feelings in a box to some degree without denying them. Marcus has impressed the hell outta me thus far -- he recognizes the situation and can look past it to respect and appreciate Charlie, seems to get a bit of a laugh and esteem boost from Charlie's infatuation, though not at Charlie's expense, embraces his relationship with Charlie, and is entirely unfazed at showing Charlie physical affection or those times when Charlie makes his adulation quite obvious to the tribe. Marcus appears to lack the usual straight-boy-gag-reflex about being mistaken for gay.
Unless they both go to the end, there will be a painful break up at some point, and my bet is that Charlie will be the one who gets broke (though I'd love to see it go the other way). They may cut each other's throats next Thursday for all we know.
But, just to play devil's advocate, how much of this is about Charlie's character or feminine characteristics, how much about his edit, and how much is our discomfort as gay men at having a gay contestant actually express his desires in an otherwise hetero community and take the risk of getting played for the fool? Kinda happens all the time in reality, and it doesn't make you a bad gay.
myintermail
Oct 25, 2008 @ 8:08 pm
Nothing that Charlie had done or said, certainly, has painted a bad name for the homosexual community.
Not saying being effeminate and being himself is wrong, but the public may make connections and generalize gays as effeminate guys. That was not exactly the case in real life.
On Marcus and Charlie, I have no problems about their relationship or how they deal about it. If only Charlie avoids talking about Marcus in his confessionals, then his story arc about this relationship won't last for 3/4 episodes already. That is pretty much annoys me.
Unless they both go to the end, there will be a painful break up at some point, and my bet is that Charlie will be the one who gets broke (though I'd love to see it go the other way).
I speculate that Charlie will be the one that is heartbroken, complete with water works. Just a hunch.
O2Sean
Oct 26, 2008 @ 12:36 am
Not saying being effeminate and being himself is wrong, but the public may make connections and generalize gays as effeminate guys. That was not exactly the case in real life.
If people do watch and generalize gay guys as effeminate, then they're going to do that with or without Charlie, because most of the images the media presents of gay men are effeminate. It's very one-dimensional, but then, when other options are gay men who are desperate to remind viewers they aren't like other gay men, they hate themselves, they paw all over women in an attempt to show how hot they are (which is what Real World gave viewers not long ago), the effeminate gay man doesn't seem as bad.
I've been disappointed by Survivor's portrayal of gays the past few years (Todd was given a terrible edit that barely even covered one dimension or explained how he won, and Chet probably never should have been cast), but I think the gays cast on TAR and Real World over the past few years have been more negative stereotypes than anyone on Survivor in recent years.
On Marcus and Charlie, I have no problems about their relationship or how they deal about it. If only Charlie avoids talking about Marcus in his confessionals, then his story arc about this relationship won't last for 3/4 episodes already. That is pretty much annoys me.
If Charlie doesn't speak about Marcus, then we'd probably never see Charlie. It's sad that Survivor has such pathetic editing this season that the only time they care about showing a gay man is to have us laugh at him because he has a crush on a straight man, but that's how lazy the show has become. I guess one could argue that it would be better to not see Charlie than to only see him talk about Marcus, but I don't think Charlie has ever said anything that bad about Marcus. He hasn't talked about wanting to marry him, or turn him gay. He hasn't been possessive or catty about Marcus, at least not so far. For the most part, they have a friendship and an alliance, not much more than that.
I think the sad part is that because of the show's editing, then if Charlie ever does express the typical doubts or irritations that many players have about someone in their alliance, then this may be presented or interpreted as more schoolgirl delusions. And yet, the alternative would have been Charlie never saying anything about his harmless crush on Marcus, as if it's wrong. Even then, if he'd never said a word about Marcus, the show still may have painted this picture of him, because that's probably what they wanted for this season -- a good laugh at the effeminate gay man who dares to have an alliance with the alpha male jock.
I speculate that Charlie will be the one that is heartbroken, complete with water works. Just a hunch.
Charlie, Marcus, and Corinne still seem to be friends now, so any betrayal must not have left too deep of scars.
blackberrypatch
Oct 26, 2008 @ 3:56 am
Marcus is just plain good at being the right kind of person for different people. His actions with Charlie are no different than Parvati's with every male ever in Cook Islands. It's just another social aspect in a social game. Shoulder bite =)
Speaking of Cook Islands, doesn't Dan's voice sound EXACTLY like JP's (and to a lesser extent, Brad's)?
Back to Charlie, except for his confessionals in the early episodes, I thought he looked very serious around camp, discussing strategy, eating, listening to challenge instruction, and doing challenges. He's jumping up and down when they win their challenges but so is everyone else. He doesn't smile nearly as much as Corrine. I do remember Coby from Palau, Brad from Cook Islands, and Chet. They were way more obvious.
raceguy120390
Oct 29, 2008 @ 9:50 pm
As I recall hearing, Charlie was cast purely so people tuning in for the first time would know "oh, he's the gay one". The problem with this is that he really doesn't seem all that gay until he opens his mouth.
Actually, it surprises me that even though -- admit it -- Burnett looks almost exclusively for stereotypes when casting gay contestants, we've still had a wide variety. Compare Brandon to JP to Hatch. Completely different.
Kid Twist
Nov 7, 2008 @ 3:43 pm
So what if Charlie is effeminate? People on this board keep saying he presents a bad image of gays. You know what? There are lots of effeminate gay men in the world and there's nothing wrong with them. They are as capable of performing extraordinary feats -- surviving in the wilderness, running marathons -- as anyone else.
legaleagle44
Nov 7, 2008 @ 10:18 pm
So what if Charlie is effeminate? People on this board keep saying he presents a bad image of gays. You know what? There are lots of effeminate gay men in the world and there's nothing wrong with them. They are as capable of performing extraordinary feats -- surviving in the wilderness, running marathons -- as anyone else.
No, of course there's nothing wrong with them, but that's not the point, in my opinion. The point is that if that's the only example of gay men that Joe Viewer sees, then that's all he's going to think that gay men are--and for every Charlie and Chet that exists, there are far more JPs and Brandons; yet Charlies and Chets are what people see 90% of the time. That not only has the potential to distort the image of gay men (we're not all screaming queens with a drag wish), but it also perpetuates a ridiculous and wholly inaccurate stereotype.
Granted, as another poster pointed out, that stereotype will unfortunately always exist, to one degree or another, regardless of who's cast on Survivor, but casting mainly Charlies and Chets, while all but ignoring the JPs and Brandons, certainly doesn't help matters.
YMMV, of course.
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