I've been wanting to do this for ages and I feel a sudden burst of compulsive energy so...

There are a ton of threads here, and about half of them haven't been posted in for at least 6 months. There's also a lot of overlap, and threads where the subject isn't clear from the name, and general stuff like that I'd like to clean up. My impression, which may be wrong, is that all of these things make it difficult to find something that interests you just by browsing. I have a list of all the topics here that I try to keep updated, and I still go, "Wait, what's that for again...?" And maybe that's just me because I've been kind of out of the loop with other things going on. But I'm trying to get loopy again!

...That came out wrong. Ahem. Here's what I'm pondering:

• A subforum (like the commercials section) for "The Industry," into which I'd move the threads that are about The Nielsens, Producers, Writers, Networks, Pilot Season, etc. Basically, threads where the focus is more on the business and how it works (or doesn't) than what happened on a particular show.
• A subforum for "Superlatives." All the best/worst/saddest/funniest, "TV Moments That...," list-y topics would go there. That's a huge chunk of the threads here, and that's also where a lot of overlap happens. Because of that, I also want to merge some old, similarly themed threads into current versions if appropriate. And I'd like to merge some of the "bests" and "worsts" together unless that seems likely to cause a mess because they're both extremely active. It'd be on a case-by-case basis, but it just seems more conducive to conversation if you can say, "I loved Rob & Amber on Survivor because [blah blah]. But then I hated them on TAR because [blah blah]," without having to hop from "Reality Stars We Loved" to "Reality Stars We Hated."
• And possibly a subforum for "Cultural Analysis" -- the threads about Gender/Class/Race/etc. on TV, the impact of television, and so on. There's only a couple dozen threads like that, so maybe they don't need to be a subset, but I do feel like there's a different enough kind of conversation there that if they were easier to find, people who wanted to talk about TV from that perspective would find it easier to do so, and people who didn't would fewer pages to churn through.

That still leaves 100+ threads that don't clearly fit into one of the above. Some them are old, dead threads that might be merged into other threads. And some, I might just add a little more detail to the topic name because I know I've read them and I still can't remember from the name what they're about. But there'd still be a lot here in the main section; it's not that I'm trying to wipe out everything, I just want to make it a bit easier to find things without adding too many layers to navigation, and it's hard to know where exactly that line is. Which is where you come in.

So, does any or all of that sound helpful? Would it make it easier to find the subjects you're interested in? The one I'm probably most committed to is creating the "Superlatives" section -- they're just an obvious grouping and I do think there's some redundancy in topics that wouldn't happen if it was easier for everyone to see what's already here. But let me know what you think; if you'd like having a subforum, but don't want merged "bests" and "worsts," or vice versa, speak up. I'll leave this open for at least a week, so none of this is going to happen tomorrow.

The "Superlatives" idea sounds like a really good one. I think the "Cultural Analysis" would be helpful, too.

I don't think I have enough experience with the Best and Worst threads to offer an opinion there.

I think subgrouping sounds like a very good idea. I, personally, never visit the "industry" threads, but from some of the names, I've accidentally stumbled into them a time or two.
So...count my vote as "yea".

I'm also in favor of the subgrouping you've outlined. However, I'm wary of purging old threads just because they're, well, old. Some perfectly good threads get pushed way down the list on occasion because other threads are suddenly getting enormous amounts of activities. And other threads are somewhat specialized and only go active when certain things happen - but that doesn't make them less interesting or valid.

I definitely think that a "Superlatives" subforum is a good idea.

Beyond that, I'm not so sure. I'm one of those who likes to occasionally look through a few pages from several years ago, and even something as seemingly innocuous as merging a "best" and "worst" on the same topic could lead to nonsensical reading as two formerly distinct discussions are shuffled together.

I think the sub-forum idea sounds fine, but I agree with Rinaldo that the merging of threads or pruning of old threads could be problematic.

Thanks for asking our opinion, Strega.

A superlatives sub-forum sounds like a good idea.

Perhaps "TV industry" and "Cultural Analysis" could go in one sub-forum since they deal with broader TV issues not specific to a show, or show moment; and because both have so few threads.

I agree that this would make topics/threads easier to find for everyone. And yeah, some titles could use tweaking to make the topic clearer.


Hmm, can't help you there, but merging posts will probably be confusing.

I think sub-forums would definitely ease navigation, and don't think TV Industry and Cultural Analysis should be combined as one previous poster suggested (I am biased, as I adore the latter and don't read the former, but I think they're distinct enough that it would be better to have two smaller sub-forums than one larger one).

Merging the "love" and "hate" and "best" and "worst" threads dealing with the same subject matter together sounds good in theory, but I imagine a confusing mess when they are first merged. That's a short-term problem, however, that may well be worthwhile in the long run, as the sheer number of threads in this forum is currently rather unwieldy.

Oh, I don't plan to delete any threads! Let me see if I can find an example... From the titles "Storylines You'd Like To Change" doesn't seem all that different from "Failed Storylines With Potential." Again, maybe they are very distinct and that's a bad example, but there are a number of cases where I suspect that one thread was buried years ago, and conversation died off, and a few years later someone else had a similar idea. So, stuff like that I'd like to merge together if, on reading them, they do seem to overlap.

Merging bests & worsts probably would make it hard to follow conversations prior to the merge. It really depends on how y'all use the threads if it'd help or annoy, so if more of you think it would annoy I'll leave 'em be.

I agree with merging similar themed threads. Sometimes I don't post in either because I can't quite figure out which would be more suitable. Best/Worst merged, I agree with it being case by case. Some threads do seem to be naturally linked anyway.

I love the Superlatives and Cultural Analisys sub-forum idea. Once the focus is set, tons of more ideas could be derived from it.

I think all of the proposed categories sound great. Also with re-naming some of the more confusing/less descriptive thread titles.

I'm not at all sure how to organize the best and/or worst categories. Some characters/actors/shows etc, have lots of people in each category where they do rate separate threads; others have only a combined page or two.

One option would be to close both the best and worst threads and create a new best/worst thread with links to the two old threads in the initial post.

I think any plan to clean the forum up will make it a friendlier playground. Thank you!
With this forum in particular it seems that folks start new threads without searching for existing topics. I know no one wants to lose those pearls of humor or wisdom from old threads but if you get worn out trying to find someone's pithy rejoinder, what good does it do?

I like the three new subforums idea.



You beat me to it! A lot of those threads talk about their opposites anyway, i.e. good "X" moments will come up as a point of comparison with the worst "X" moments. But it seems really messy to merge the current best/worst threads. Starting fresh seems like a good compromise.

I don't know how much work it would be for the moderator, though.

Oh! You're so smart... somehow I never thought of that. It would deal with my main objection to such a merge (I think that "old" discussions should remain intelligible, even years later).

And this treatment would also work for threads very close to another existing topic. I mean, "Stuff You Called Out, Even As a Kid" and "Dumbest Plot Twists" and probably a couple of others are close enough to make it mystifying which one is appropriate.

This is an interesting discussion; I look forward to seeing how it develops.

The thing about the positive/negative threads (characters, actors, TV movies, etc.) is that in general negative opinions seem to overwhelmingly outnumber positive opinions and are often page-long outbreaks of venting on a single subject or show or person.

I think if these threads were merged it would make it more difficult to find and follow positive discussions. And personally, I would be very sad if I always had to wade through a lot of negativity before I could reply to something interesting someone said several pages back. I'd just eventually stop reading and posting in these threads entirely. Of course, YMMV.

I think that there's a lot of merging that could be done successfully, but I agree with Coder Lady that merging the Hate/Love and Best/Worst threads could be problematic. The hatred tends to run deep, involved and sometimes very witty, the love sometimes does, but more often boils down to "squeeeeeee!" If you decide to combine them, I'd definitely suggest locking the old, separate ones and starting new, combined ones.



On general combining, there are a lot that are so slightly different that they could be combined with no real problem. Some sets that I found in one quick run through the list:

Dumbest Plot Twists;
Haven't I seen this Before: Rehashed Plots;
Not Again: TV's Most Pathetic People and Plots

Rewrites and Revisions: Storylines You'd Like to Change;
Be Careful What You Wish For: Storylines that Crashed and Burned;
Failed Storylines With Potential

Dumbest Things Characters Say;
Tired TV Dialogue;

Show Concepts that Should Have Been Great;
What Were they Smoking?;
The Goofy, The Mad, And The Utterly Ridiculous Show Premise;

What about threads that maybe aren't a superlative, but are still like "Actors we hate/love." I think those ones are pretty active and could each sustain their own thread.

But otherwise I think sub-foruming it up would be good.

Another vote for categories. And one category suggestion: Browsing through the first few pages to find a thread that had fallen off my "topics" control panel, I noticed quite a lot of threads about specific actors and/or characters. (Characters we love/hate, criminally underused actors, actors who shouldn't leave their day jobs, those sorts of things.) I'd say maybe have a category for that, and maybe make the bests/worsts category specific to TV moments?

I think michelel is really onto something here, although I'm sure it's quite a lot more work. If there were subforums for 1) actors and characters 2) storylines and moments, 3) cultural analysis, and 4) the industry, I think that would encompass a fair number of the threads here and ease navigation considerably. Within the actors & characters and storylines & moments sub-forums, the love/hate and best/worst topics dealing with the same subject matter could either be merged or left separate; I think there are pros and cons to each.

While I think the general idea of subforums is a good one, it's damn hard to talk about character without story, and vice versa. Splitting those two concepts into separate forums seems likely to impede conversation.

While some overlap is inevitable, there are currenty threads that focus on storylines and others that focus on characters, so I don't see that it would cause a problem if it isn't already doing so. Although, if it would, characters could perhaps be lumped in with storylines and moments, with actors being its own subforum. I just think that this forum is so unwieldy that the more subforums that can logically be constructed (and that the mods are able to take the time to develop), the better. I know that I'm likely unaware of half of the threads, because it's too cumbersome to wade through page after unorganized page.

The only threads that might cause a problem with a characters / storylines & moments / cultural impact / industry / superlatives separation are
The Lana Lang Effect: When TV Producers Play Favorites (currently on page 5 with 314 posts total),
The Chloe Sullivan Corollary: When the Writers Ignore You (currently on page 5 with 58 posts total) and
The Susan Meyer Plague: When Main Characters Get Crap Storylines (page 7, 75 posts).

Those are the only three I see that are intended to be talking about characters in the context of storyline (or vice versa).

You guys make a good brainstorming group! How about this...

1. Next weekend I'll go ahead with creating the "Superlatives" subforum, and I think the "Industry" subforum, and will move those threads accordingly. Since that much doesn't seem problematic.

2. I'll create one or two merged "best/worst" threads and close the "best" and "worst" versions for them.

3. Then I'll start working through some of the threads I think might overlap and being compulsive as I have time.

4. After a week or so I'll check back and ask y'all if the merged threads seemed to work, or if that was a terrible idea and we must never do that again. ("It works for this but not for that" is fine, too.)

5. And that'll give us a little more basis for talking about more subforums and to merge or not to merge.

Because it's not all-or-nothing. In all honesty, even if everyone here said, "Yes, merge everything and make subforums, woo!" it would take me a while to actually get that done (ahem), so as long as y'all know what's up and don't find it too chaotic, I'm fine with setting up a couple of threads as an experiment and saying, "We'll see if this works or not."

Sounds like a reasonable plan. Thanks again for seeking our input.

Bless you, Strega.

Okay, I've set up Superlatives & The Industry. Obviously. And I'm taking a stab at moving threads and am going to poke around once more before I sleep -- if there's anything where you're like, "Why did/didn't you move this thread, crazy woman?" just let me know; the answer is probably "'Cause I'm dumb, that's why. Nyeah."

Just to be clear: Even if the topic name isn't explicitly "best/worst/most/least," if the thread's premise seems more "list moments/shows/characters in this category" than not, I'm moving it to Superlatives. But the goal here is for the organization to be as intuitive as possible so if you're confused by what I have or haven't moved... I'm doing it wrong. And there were a few where I flipped a coin, so, again, none of this is set in stone. Thanks for all the feedback, and for being patient as I rearrange the furniture.

I just went through the new sub-forums (woo! go Strega!) and even though it hasn't been posted in since 2006, perhaps Timeslots and Crackpots: TV Scheduling Successes and Blunders is better suited for "Industry"?

And for the future "To Do List": Starter Kits: Best and Worst TV Debuts and That's How It All Began: TV's Best and Worst Pilots are covering the exact same territory.

I just spent way too much time looking for the Product Placement thread. Having it in the Superlatives section is really odd. Did Ben Silverman make you do that? (My first instinct was to look in Industry, then Commercials, then the general forum. Really, anywhere but Superlatives.)

Sorry. It seemed more list-y than not. That's my whole rationale, and I'm open to reconsidering. Basically most of the posts seemed to be "here's an example of blatant product placement." I can see putting it in Industry as well, so... thoughts?

(I'm still working my way through the older/uncategorized threads, so I'm definitely open to some re-arrangement.)

Might "Cultural Analysis" threads (looking at ethnicity, gender, class, sexuality, appearance, etc. on TV) still end up with their own subforum? I know it wouldn't be all that large, but neither is "The Industry." It would be nice to have all of those in one place.

That's definitely still on the table. I want to finish going through the existing topics (I'm on vacation next week, so I can spend a bit more time poking around here without being distracted by a random crisis). But yeah, if it seems like that would be more helpful than disruptive I'm happy to set up a subforum for those kinds of topics.

I looked for the Product Placement thread in the Industry section. Then I thought that was stupid of me and that obviously it would be in commercials. Then I tried the site search function, which is and always has been FUBAR, and then I tried google. Finally I remembered that I had read about it in this thread, and that I should go look in superlatives.

I love the reorganization, but I think it might take a little getting used to!

I just read all nine pages of the Product Placement thread, and it seems to be fairly evenly divided between serious discussion of the whys and wherefores and listy or zOMG! posts, both of them coming in clumps. I think that moving it to the Industry subforum *may* encourage more discussion-oriented posts and fewer "AI owns this thread!" ones. I'm not sure that I can articulate why I suspect that may be true, except that the various superlative-type threads seem to encourage drive-by postings; it's hard to get a discussion going on why someone is or isn't the sexiest actor or character you hate the most without falling afoul of the FAQ by going off-topic (The topic is who is sexy, not why you think someone isn't.)

But... none of have access to objective ultimate truth, and we can only give our own opinions and reasoning as to why we think X is the Most X Ever. So isn't our reasoning on-topic? Augh, drawing these lines makes my head hurt. (Including the question of whether I'm off-topic by talking about it here.)

In any case, I can see that allocating topics to the various subfora is a matter of very delicate consideration. The "Superlatives" one, in particular, seems likely to continue to raise questions. My own feeling is that I would expect to find in it only topics that are explicitly of the "Best/Worst Ever" kind. Other kinds of lists feel different to me. But I know it's a hard kind of sorting to do.

I see what you're saying, Rinaldo, and I agree that the reasons that you think someone IS sexy are on topic in a thread on the sexiest, but are the reasons that you think someone ISN't sexy still on topic? It's a fuzzy line.

Another vote for a "Cultural Analysis" category. Though, I have an alternative suggestion:

How about making that subcategory something like "TWoP School of Television" where "Critical Studies" subjects (race, gender, age, disability, religion, etc.) are also included with threads on

-"Class Work/Presentations/Thesis Papers Inspired By TV"
-"Continuity: Essential or Not?"
-"Turn That Thing Off and Go Read: Best Books About TV"
-"School Life on TV"

Maybe:
-"I Remember It Like it Was Yesterday: Flashbacks & Clipshows"
-"Hey, You Aren't...!": Comparing International Versions Of Shows"
-"Writing or Acting: Why We Hate Characters"
-"The Secret World of Backdoor Pilots" (at least this should be in "The Industry," right?)

Though there may be some thematic overlap with threads in other sections, this category should include threads with subjects that pose questions or perhaps even a thesis statement to rebut and comment on. Possible new threads might be...
-"What's More Important: Hot Actors or Hot Writing?"
-"Suspension of Belief: How Far Can the Envelope Be Pushed?"
-"Stating the Obvious: Case Studies in Bad Exposition"

Basically, this new category would be for analytical subjects and perhaps different techniques (narration, flashbacks) rather than personal faves/dislikes (the "Superlative" subforum).

"Groundbreakers: Shows That Changed TV," which is currently in "The Industry" category might be better placed inside this proposed "School of Television" category. This brings up the issue of what factors should be used to place a thread that could go into the Industry Category or the "School of Television" category. As a first hack, I'd have to say that threads which are mostly historical and/or analytical in their subject matter should be in the "School" category, while "The Industry" category should be mainly about the business side of television and current events / news.


* * *

Since I was looking through all the current threads, I saw these threads and was thinking that they should be moved to the "Industry" category.

-"The Teen Scene: Growing Up in Hollywood"
-"Stop Sponging off Your Parents' Careers! Nepotism in Hollywood"
-"Hey, Whatever Happened to That Actor?"

Maybe it's coincidence or maybe selective perception, but it appears to me that threads such as Little Things TV Stations Do That Annoy You, TV Moments That Have Scarred You For Life and TV Actors We Hate are getting a lot fewer posts now that they are off the main TV Potluck highway.

Shouldn't "The Lana Lang Effect" (producers playing favorites) and "the Chloe Sullivan Corollary" (producers playing anti-favorites) be in the same forum? (And I don't quite see how the LL one fits in the Industry subforum anyways.)

Can the name of the Superlatives sub-forum be changed? Right now it seems to include any topic that is essentially a list, but the name Superlatives makes me think it's only "Best of/Worst of" lists, which doesn't really cover all of the threads that are in the sub-forum. I've held off commenting to see if I'd get used to it, but I haven't. It's still throwing me off when I go to look for certain threads.

Yes, I too tried to give myself time to get used to the all-encompassing-ness of "Superlatives," but I'm always finding that I look for a thread in the wrong place.

My biggest example is the two threads "What We Thought We Heard" and "Slow on the Uptake," which seem very close (sometimes overlapping) in content to me. Yet the former is in the main "TV Potluck" forum, and the latter is in "Superlatives."

I too expected Superlatives to include only threads with Best or Worst in the title (or, perhaps, clearly implied). Of which there are many.

I know it must be hard to edit through so many varied topics and group them logically; this is my own perspective on one little part of it.

Should the "Awww: Warm and Fuzzy Moments" thread be in Superlatives?

Nevermind, it must have been something I was doing.

However, I agree to the above and below sentiments.

I love this idea, and cast a hearty vote for such a subcategory.

I love the "Cultural Analysis" threads, occasionally the "Superlatives". So one more vote to the "Cultural Analysis" sub-forum.

Personally I prefer the "Music Videos" thread to be considered as a sub-forum, like commercials did. The current thread discussions shifts from listing favorites/worsts to serious discussions back and forth.