I couldn't fine a topic for this beloved cult TV series (the final season of which was released yesterday), so I decided to start one. Hopefully it's not just hiding somewhere. So feel free to discuss the immortal love between Catherine and Vincent! Debate whether Diana was a worthy replacement or not! Grumble about what a controlling, short-sighted jerk Father was (well, I thought so)! Find out who else has the soundtrack (I do, and it's fantastic)! Ask head-scratching questions, like why does Mouse spoke pidgin English when he was taught to speak by the ridiculously eloquent Vincent? And on and on! Enjoy!

I've got the soundtrack and the first season DVD set. Is the second season worth it? I don't know that I would bother with any DVDs that include the Diana storyline. As far as I am concerned, the series ended when Catherine died.

Season 2 is still Catherine and definitely worth it. Though Lovers Be Lost is the beginning of the third season. Or as I call it, the two hour series finale before the really bad spin-off of which we do not speak.

I just finished Netflixing the first two seasons and remembering how much I loved this show. Even if Catherine and Vincent got to kiss less than Nuke on As The World Turns.

I only have vague memories of this show being fantastic. And kind of grandly, old school, romantic.

I almost don't want to watch again for fear it won't live up to my memories. I had no idea it was on DVD.

Does it pass the test of time?

I think it holds up well. I love Catherine and Vincent together and the supporting characters (especially Below) are great. Though I'd forgotten their tendency to kill off recurring characters in the second season.

Some of the standalone eps are a little weak and you could make a drinking game from their use of stock shots like Vincent on top of the subway car.

Rewatching, I think I might have gotten all my knowledge of poetry and classical music when I was younger from this show.

When the show was originally broadcast, I was working nights and didn't get to see it--this was before the great innovation of VCR, of course. I've got season 1 and 2 on DVD now, and really enjoyed it. I love Linda Hamilton as Catherine and love Ron Perlman as Vincent. I'm a little hesitant to get season 3 but what the heck. The third season of the original Star Trek was totally awful, I mean laughably awful, but it's still a classic show. So mostly out of curiosity I'm going to order the third season of BatB.

I've tried to figure out how old Mouse was when Vincent found him. They said he'd been stealing from the community below and living by himself in the tunnels for awhile.

Did he ever have any education other than from Vincent? He seems to have a natural aptitude for mechanics, but his verbal skills are limited. And the "Wonderful Life" episode showed that without Vincent he'd have no language at all.

It's sad really, I did get Shakespeare in high school, but Rilke, Byron, Blake, even any American poets like Frost or Dickinson, I can't recall being exposed to. Or if I did, it didn't stick, until B&B. I really wish that Perlman would do another poetry recording, with that gorgeous honey voice of his.

I owned two tie-in books "Song of Orpheus" and "Masques" as well as the soundtrack, and even bought a graphic novel.

Just don't make me relive "though lovers be lost" and "the rest is silence." Because I am Still! Bitter! <mutters>fairy tales are meant to have HAPPY endings</mutters>

I thought it was strange how the show tries to paint the world Below as this paradise while the world Above is filled with crime, greed, and violence. I thought the citizens of Below were the most narrow-minded, hypocritical, prejudiced, clingy and selfish bunch I've ever seen! Father was the worst one. He treated Vincent like his property instead of his stepson, and treated poor Catherine with suspicion and indifference. The episode that made me hate Father was Remember Love, where Catherine suggests taking Vincent to a lake she used to visit as a girl. She also knows no one will vacationing there and offers to take Vincent in a van as an extra safety precaution.
Now, if Father had said to Vincent, "I'm afraid someone will see you and try to kill you", I'd give him a pass. Instead, Father rips Vincent a new one and lectures him about how selfish and stupid he's being (speak for yourself, old man) and then plays the guilt card by telling him the world Below would crumble without Vincent. It's all about the damn community, and Vincent's not allowed to take a risk and go after what he wants. Several guilt trips later, Vincent tells Catherine no, leaving them both disheartened. God, that episode pisses me off.

Loved the show till the cataclysmic changes of Season 3. To me, it was such high romance, done with such dignity and elegance. I loved Vincent and Catherine, of course, and was thrilled with John McMartin's occasional appearances as Catherine's father. But count me in what may be a minority of those who didn't hate Father. Part of it is that I think Roy Dotrice is a totally awesome actor [his wry skating coach is one of the highlights of "Cutting Edge" for me], and part of it was that, while I thought he made huge mistakes, Father also held together that community Below and protected his charges with a fierce, if sometimes misguided love.

One of my favorite episodes was when they realized that on Halloween Vincent and Catherine could spend time above ground together, and did so. It was all rather bittersweet, because the next morning everything had to return to 'normal', but for those precious hours, they could revel in their love.

They did something similar with a Halloween ep on Gargoyles with Elisa and Goliath. One of the Ninja Turtles cartoons may've done it as well. It makes sense for genre shows involving non-human-looking characters to go there.

It's awesome tha Ron Perlman is still big in films. I wish Linda Hamilton had gotten more out of her career. Between this and the two Terminator, I had a mad crush. Before Nikita, before Buffy and other strong female character on TV and in film, I think Hamilton may've embodied the first (okay maybe She-Ra came first).

I really need to buy this series.

It is really odd that there is basically no thread for this show! I know it was popular. I loved it, with Catherine and Vincent. After Catherine allegedly died, but never did, in my mind, there was no show. I wasn't really big on the deconstruction of Vincent toward the end of the run either. After all the wonderful romantic loving scenes Vincent and Catherine had had, they finally make love in a subterreanean cave while Vincent is chained to the wall and trying not to kill Catherine? I also adored Father. I didn't see him the way others are describing him, I saw him as fiercely loving and protective, of all the community, and especially of Vincent. Catherine was included in time. Remember when Vincent was talking, when she was below after her father died, that while everyone in the community was behind him, no one was watching out for Catherine, in her relationship with Vincent, and praying for her safe passage, and Father said, 'then I shall watch and pray for you both."

I don't know the titles of the episodes, except for the one about the bluebird...was that the one with the artist faking his death.. i loved that one, it had alot of humor in it, as well as tenderness. :Don't worry, we're having him committed! Soon!" I liked also the one where Catherine remembers her mother, and the one where she loses her father was so poignant. The death of Ellie..so sad....I did not like the one where Cain was hiding in the tunnels to escape prosecution for the hit and run death of a child, and when the mother of the child saw him above, nobody below thought he should turn himself in. But the bedroom with all the candles lit was beautiful. I didn't like the ones where Vincent attacked people, I liked the romantic and loving and funny aspects of the show.

I thought Mouse was challenged in some way, whichis why he talked like that. Was it Mouse or Pascal that was always banging on the pipes?

Pascal (Armin Shimmerman) ran the pipe chamber. He was a fun supporting character.


Word. And since it was the season/series finale, it's so easy to explain. The doctor (who had been fairly pitying to Catherine during her captivity) just pulled a Juliet and gave her a drug that made it looked like she died. Or Vincent used their restored bond to call her back from death a la The Sentinel.

I absolutely love B&B. When it was first on I was living in Germany (military brat), and I watched it with German dubbing. I understood German decently well, so it was no problem. But once I returned to the states, I found I didn't like the sound of Linda Hamilton's voice!

I own the first two seasons and have absolutely no plans on getting the third. There's just no point, in my opinion. I also received two of the novelizations as gifts when I was a teen, but I'm not sure where they are now.

I still think it's a beautiful show, but I'm not entirely sure they ever gave a reason why the two never really kissed. Was it just that Vincent was reluctant to loose control or that he was never fully convinced that Catherine wanted him that way? I know that on their 2-year anniversary he was going to go inside her apartment for the first time, but that got interrupted. He didn't go in again until he became sick at the end of season 2.

Well, I did finally buy Season 3, and I've now had to stop the DVD twice in the middle of the very first episode because I can see the heartbreak on the horizon and don't want to watch it unfold. Catherine has had several chances to tell Vincent that she's pregnant and hasn't done so, which is obviously a terrible mistake. And I have to say that I'm looking at this show with a 21st century backward lens, but come on, we get no indication at all, so far, of how or when she and Vincent made this baby. Nada. Is this 1980s prudery or what? So I'm already not liking season 3.

They were never allowed to kiss (or do more than imply how the baby was made) because the network executives were afraid of Rev. Wildmon and his Television watchdogs accusing them of promoting bestiality. That Vincent was more human than most network executives (or Reverend Wildmon) doesn't seem to have occurred to them.

Also, 8 p.m. time slot.

I know when they made the baby, it was when Vincent was chained in a far below cave cos he had become a raving animal..it had something to do with Paracelsus. Catherine went into the cave and he is snarling and roaring, and she screams Vincent! and that is it for the season. Next show has a flower opening, which is supposed to indicate they are making love. why couldn't they have done it in a romantic setting? I think they always knew they both wanted to, but I don't know what held them back. Catherine knew that Vincent had injured that dancer he was attracted to, so maybe that was it. It did show her giving V a brief kiss as she went back above one time.

A box of rocks is more human than Reverend Wildmon and his ilk. As far as the 8 pm timeslot, was not Melrose Place on at 8 pm? There was good wholesome fare for the kids all right!

What I saw at the beginning of the first episode of Season 3 is that Vincent is snarling out of his mind, Catherine cautiously approaches him and he almost attacks her, but then realizes somehow who she is, and they both collapse to the ground. Father finally enters and Vincent gets to his feet. Father helps Vincent walk out of the caves, with Catherine and the rest of the people following behind. Then Vincent is back in his own bed, being treated, but he's still kind of out of it. It seems very implausible to me that Vincent and Catherine had sex in the cave, and much more likely that she spent time with him in his bed as he was recuperating. Either way, it just seems very out of character to me that these two, who are so deeply in love, would consummate this two-year build-up with a quickie on a cave floor while he's semi-insane and anyone could walk in on them.

I would have loved to have heard the discussions that must have gone on with the writers and producers about how to show (or rather avoid showing) the event that led to Catherine's pregnancy, but the way it ended up onscreen--if in fact it was supposed to have occurred at that moment in the cave--seems to contribute to the show's 'bestiality' criticisms (which I think are absurd to begin with but okay, the times were different) rather than sideswipe or assuage them. Any fan of the show knows that Vincent is not a beast, but quite the opposite--this cultured, sensitive creature, especially if he were dazed and confused, would not be screwing his own true love in filthy ripped clothes on a gravelly bed of dirt.

I was also very disappointed for several other reasons, and here are two of them:

1) When the "Six Months Later" caption came up onscreen. That was so clearly just a device to advance Catherine's pregnancy while keeping everything else about her situation the same. Made no sense that after all that time Vincent could suddenly commune with the fetus, but not before, and that she was kept in an office building on Sixth Avenue in the middle of the city but nobody, not Elliot, not the Helpers, and not Vincent, and not Joe (despite the obvious machinations of his boss) had a clue about it. I just didn't buy that at all.

2) That Vincent was shown so busy chasing the helicopter that the dying, drugged up Catherine has to stagger up to the roof in her nightie to find him, rather than him finding her first. I knew they were going to kill her off, but I thought the tragedy of the moment was muted by the absurdity of her climbing up the stairs to the high-rise rooftop that way just moments after she'd given birth, not even knowing that Vincent was up there growling at Gabriel.

So far I'm liking Diana as a character, though how she's managed to be employed by the police while lounging around in her apartment all day tacking up photos and reading poetry and musing upon crime 'puzzles'--well, that's quite a trick. The scene where she rescues Vincent and brings him to her apartment was cool, but then it was endless shots of her sitting around her apartment for three days while he's mostly unconscious. I get that they were trying to establish her growing feelings for him, but it got so boring I went and made a sandwich, and she was still staring at him from her chair with a determined look when I got back.

All in all, so far Season 3 is not as bad as I was led to believe, but I was prepared for Catherine's death before I saw it. I bet that if I was watching the series as it was being aired on television, I would have given up on the show in disgust after Catherine's death, because it really gutted the emotional power of the series when the point of it became not Vincent and Catherine's star-crossed love but rather Vincent looking for his son in the midst of his grief.

Lesbonaut..cool name...I don't remember this part, but if it was not showing that they did the deed on a cold damp cave floor, while he was insane, what was the whole deal with the flower? Also, was it Catherine that brought Vincent back to his senses completely? I so want the DVD's on Seasons 1 and 2....I want to see this all again.

I remember being ticked off that they had them consumate thier love while Vincent was wacked out (I think on drugs that Paracelsus had dosed him with) and violent. It went totally against the romance that the show stood for. Since they hadn't gone thier in the two years they'd known each other I kind of assumed that they just "couldn't." We never did find out what Vincent was exactly but an alien was certainly a possibility, and I just thought that maybe his biology was different enough that intercourse with a human might not be possible. Somebody told me about some Science Fiction book where the male and female protagonists loved each other very much but they were two different species and to put it bluntly the parts didn't fit. Other than this and the white hot hatred that I have for them killing off Catherine, however, I really liked this show.

BTW when they sent the blood to the lab it came back as not human. There is no way something with blood THAT different would be able to breed with a human and you would think if somehow they had made a child it would not look totally human.

I had no problem with Jo Anderson who IIRC is Gillian X-Files Anderson's sister, but of course I just didn't want Catherine gone. I don't think they went as far as to mean to have her "replace" Catherine and even if the show had continued I would have hoped that her interest in Vincent would have remained unrequited. Sure in real life you SHOULD get over loss and find somebody else, but this was a romantic fantasy so it wouldn't have been right for him to ever have another romantic love.

Man, I loved this show as a kid, but I haven't thought of it in ages. It's probably what prepped me to love Angel so much years later.

They put out an album of Vincent reading poetry, right? I vaguely remember a cousin having it.

I looked it up on IMDB and there isn't any record of Gillian Anderson being related to Jo Anderson. Gillian has a younger sister name Zoe, but no older sister.

I liked the way the men who loved Catherine worked together in Season 3. Eliot Burch, Vincent, and Joe Malone all found ways to honor her.

I watched it again, and you're right, susannah2000, that there's a flower opening, and a slow-mo scene of Catherine's and Vincent's hands entwining, and flashbacks to some of their most romantic moments, with goopy music throughout. I think I suppressed it because I thought it was cheesy. (He wasn't chained up at all, he's just standing there in a rage growling, then comes toward her and collapses.) She thinks he's dead, and she leans over him and kisses him, and that's when they fade to the flower opening. I guess you can interpret that as something sexual taking place, but it seems very inappropriate at that point. I interpreted it, and still do, as Catherine bringing Vincent back to life, kind of calling him back from the dead, with a kiss--kind of a variation on the Sleeping Beauty fairy tale. The flower symbolizes Vincent's return to life, and his mind remembering who she is and what they are to each other.

When Catherine leans over to kiss Vincent on the mouth (and they do show this--though it's muted by the darkness), he's conked out on the ground; when Father enters and discovers them there, they are basically in the same position, and Vincent's still on the ground, dazed but awake. The only difference is that Catherine no longer has her coat on. Otherwise still fully dressed, no mussed up hair, and Vincent is still weak and out-of-it. As we grownups know, you don't get pregnant by taking your coat off. Unless Vincent is such a strange, alien creature that he can inseminate someone by kissing them--an adolescent girl's nightmare.

As I said, I think a quickie on the cave floor while he's semi-insane or even just semi-conscious, is totally out of character with all that has gone on in the previous two years and makes no sense in terms of the story. I agree with you entirely about that, MDKNIGHT. When it's revealed that Catherine is pregnant, we have to go scrambling back to try to figure out when that might have happened. I much prefer to think that they consummated their eternal love in his comfy bed with a fluffy coverlet, the stained glass lighting behind them and his pretty knick-knacks all around, a time and place with no "beastly" connotations. That's my story, and I'm sticking with it.

In rewatching these shows, I am continually impressed with the clothing of the people who live below, especially Vincent. You couldn't imagine a better "legendary fantasy" look to his outfits. The costume designer was brilliant.

Lesbonaut, you gotta tell me how you came up with that name! I gather you have the DVD's? I actually just thought I would see if the library had them, and they do, though out..the Vincent and Catherine love lives on! Now, I saw the episode in question just one time, all those years ago, and all I remember is Father trying to talk Catherine out of going into the cave where Vincent is snarling, she says she has to, he's snarling, she screams Vincent, the flower thing, and then Catherine is pregnant. I just assumed that the flower represented sex, though I never liked that, and felt ripped off. It would have been a total disservice to the actors who portrayed romantic love, what the whole show was about,and that was never what would be essentially, rape. I will be able to see it soon but I think your interpretation makes so much more sense, that Catherine brought Vincent back to life, and love, with a kiss, exactly like in the fairy tale, and that they made love in his bed, with candles and flowers around the room, a beautiful place. I know the show was trying to slide past the conservatives but I don't think it would have been horrible to show Catherine walking toward his bed or something. There had already been a couple of scenes in which they were asleep together in her bed, right, once below and once above? What bestiality..Vincent wasn't a beast..he wore clothes!!! I loved the old fashioned clothes they wore, with the white ruffly tunic shirts and the leather vests and all.

In regard to Vincent's origins, I was under the impression that Paracelsus had inseminated Vincent's mother with some kind of experimental something, just to see what would happen, I guess?

That's what Paracelsus said, but Father made it clear that no one actually knows how Vincent came to be.

Oh, God, Paracelsus scared the living shit out of me as a kid. I was terrified. Tom Jay was so tall and imposing. His voice was so deep it made Farscape's Ka'Dargo sound a like a prepubescent boy by comparisson. I thought that that must be what the devil sounds like. He didn't waste time talking to people, he just whipped out the knife and stabbed people.
He was batshit crazy, belivably a genius and thoroughly vicious.

As Fabrisse said, Paracelsus lied to Vincent but he didn't just do that. His wife was the one who found him outside St Vincent's Hospital and named him. He constructed an elaborate fantasy where he experimented on his pregnant wife and Vincent ripped his way out of her belly. In reality Paracelsus poisoned his wife leading to his exile by Father.

He essentially caused Vincent's breakdown disguising himself as Father and telling him the lie described above. When Vincent (who I think was drugged) killed him he pulled off his mask whispering "Now you are my son" as his death rattle. At this point Vincent simply lost it and to this day the memory of Paracelsus makes me jump at shadows.

I didn't know this, or if I did hear it, not remember. How did Vincent get into Father's care if paracelsus and his wife found him? Also, does any historian recall if the below community was made to shelter Vincent or if it was there already? Was Father ever married? Did he have any biological children?

According to the show, Paracelsus started to go a little mad and became obsessed with Vincent - as a result, Paracelsus' wife became afraid for Vincent and gave him to Father to care for, which really sent Paracelsus over the edge. In Ceremony of Innocence in S2, we learn that Paracelsus has confused everything in his head and thinks that Vincent is his biological child (as opposed to his real biological child who died at birth I think). The community was very young but already in existence when Vincent was found and brought to live there. I think they said on the show several times that Vincent became a unifying symbol that the new community was able to rally around.

Father was married - I forget her name, but she appears in Song of Orpheus in S1. She contacts Father because she's dying and wants to make amends for having abandoned him right after their marriage when he was accused of un-American activities by the McCarthy committee for, I think, expressing concerns about atomic energy, etc. She was socially prominent and her father had the marriage with Father (Jacob Wells) annulled.

Father had a biological child by a woman who lived in the tunnels. I think she died in childbirth. The son is Devin (played by Linda Hamilton's then-husband, Bruce Campbell), who was Vincent's best friend growing up and doesn't find out that he's Father's biological son until he returns as an adult in Promises of Someday.

Thank you, thank you, firemountain! It seems to me that I thought Paracelsus had a bone to pick with Father all along, but that was probably because he had Vincent, as you said. The other question I have, if the show ever said, was how/why the community got started?

Well, various people who were disatissfied with the 'World above' found and explored the network of tunnels
seeking to create an ideal society. John Pater(Paracelsus) and Jacob Wells(Father) were the leaders and innovators of this community. Paracelsus actually developed the system of communication through pipes.

But it was Pascal's father who developed the codes. *G*

I loved Pascal. And later when he was developed more and it turned out he was part of the first generation that had never lived above it really brought things home for me.

Clever that, that Paracelsus's last name was Pater, yet he was not only not Father, he was cast out.

Bruce Abbott. :) I did a double take, thinking when did Bruce Campbell appear on the show...

A little late to the party but then I just got S1 DVDs.

I loved this show and never missed it. I loved the whole idea of a city within (or under) a city with a different society existing so close and yet unknown. The clothes were just wonderful (the men had nicer ones than the women, though) and I always wanted to redo my basement to look like Vincent's room.

I think one reason they never had the two characters kiss was that their love was supposed to be on a higher level. It was a spiritual match and the physical didn't really enter into it. They did address it sort of sideways like in Song of Orpheus when Father mentions that he is concerned about Catherine and Vincent because "part of him is a man". It is also alluded to in God Bless the Child, A FAIR AND PERFECT KNIGHT and ARABESQUE. Catherine did kiss Vincent in ORPHANS but it wasn't anything that could be termed sexual. As the the flowery/sex non-scene in S3, again, I read that to mean that they were trying to keep with the dream quality of Below yet still write in the lead actress' pregnancy. I'm sure censors had something to do with it but I guess TPTB did the best they could with the many restriction they were dealing with at the time.

I wish Linda Hamilton had gotten more out of her career.

Sadly, Linda suffers from manic/depression that ruined her third marriage to James Cameron. I saw her last year on Oprah with General Hospital's Maurice Bernard. They both spoke of how the illness nearly ruined their lives until they found proper treatment.

According to IMDB she has been working. Nothing huge but she is employed.

Lesbonaut 1) When the "Six Months Later" caption came up onscreen. That was so clearly just a device to advance Catherine's pregnancy while keeping everything else about her situation the same.

I just assumed they had to do this because Linda Hamilton was really pregnant and they needed to write it into the show. Unfortunately for us, she didn't want to continue in the role after her baby was born. In my opinion, they should have ended the show when she left adding a "happily ever after" ending rather than trying to continue Beauty and the Beast without Beauty.

As much as I loved the series I would be open to a newer version. I think they could be freer with the characters and the stories, getting more layered with the whole series. I'm not sure who would play the parts. Ron Perlman could still do Vincent but I'm not sure he would want to go through all that makeup again. He swore he would not do anymore prosthetics acting after that show. Of course anyone who has seen Hellboy knows how well that went. ;)

Anyone else think remaking this wonderful show might work?

A picture of The Complete Series Boxed set was posted on TVshowsOnDVD.com recently. It's nice, I think I'll get it (glad I held out and didn't buy the individual sets). I forget if it's going to come with anything extra beyond what was in Seasons 1 to 3. How were the extras anyway, for those of you that bought them?

They could probably do something cool with a remake of this. I'm not sure what would need to be changed (you're right, they could even keep Ron Perlman, though yeah, he probably wouldn't wanna repeat himself--though finding a giant dude like that who can act ? Then again, I guess it wouldn't be that hard, especially when they wouldn't have to worry about him being TV-pretty since they could just make him somewhat handsome with the beast make-up). Just up the production values and you've got yourself a show. And don't kill off the girl.

The first season is on CBS.com. I loved this show 20 years ago but I'm not sure how it will stand up for me but I want to find out.

I'm happy to see there is a board for this underappreciated show! I discovered it in reruns when I was in college (along with the Waltons) and I became really engrossed, it was great escapist fare when I had a heavy courseload and a busy schedule. Nobody else had ever heard of it and it was so hard to explain why it was such a great show ("well there's this rich, beautiful Manhattan lawyer, and she's dating a beast who lives underground....")

I especially loved the episodes "A Happy Life" and "Chamber Music"...actually I loved all the eps and watched them repeatedly. Except after Linda Hamilton left things got really stupid and I lost interest. There was definitely a chemistry between Catherine and Vincent, and that was really what made the show work.

I am definitely going to start getting the DVD's so I can rewatch the first few seasons and discuss them here.

For those who would like to share their appreciation for Beauty and the Beast, there are several sites with some excellent fan fiction, fan art and discussions. There is also a Winterfest Online Celebration each year.

Here are a few:

http://www.classicalliance.net/ (look for the link to the Steam Tunnels here, for racier fan fiction)
http://www.classicalliance.net/tunneltales/tunneltales.html (fan fiction)
http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/bbtv/ (discussion)
http://www.mybatbpage.com/
http://www.beautyandthebeast-tv.com/winterfest/greathall/
http://www.beautyandthebeast-tv.com/bluebi...ary/library.htm

I recently watched a few episodes of this on DVD. It was the first time I've seen it since the late 90's.

I think it's really creepy when Vincent climbs up Catherine's balcony when she's sleeping and taps on the window with his nails. It reminds me of a scene from the movie "Salem's Lot".

I am rewatching the entire first season - just ordered disc 4 from Netflix. It's hilarious how many eps end with Catherine's life being in danger, then Vincent comes crashing through a wall or window to save her. Cut to them standing in the moonlight staring into each others eyes and saying romantic things.

How can this show be so bad but still be so good?!! I guess it's the chemistry between the two, and decent acting on both their parts.

I agree that the chemistry was sizzling and the acting excellent. I also think that everyone - actors, writers, directors, etc - absolutely believed in the premise, believed in this extraordinary love between these two unlikely people, and when you believe that strongly in your premise, it's going to come through.

You're right TudorQueen. But I can't help but wonder if LH and RP ever broke out in laughter while trying to do one of those romantic scenes!

I just got sucked back into BATB after 20 years, caught it on Chiller, and now feel the need to bump this thread up a little bit. Wow, what a great show for the late 80's until they killed Catherine off instead of just ending it with "They Lived Happily Ever After." What were they thinking?

Also, in reading the last 3 pages of posts, I never even knew there were concerns in the religious communities about bestiality and all that stuff. I would never have even thought of it that way. To me it was just a sensitive half man/half lion with a heart of gold, who reads poetry and Shakespeare and Dickens - damn, that's all kinds of hot.

Was this issue a really big deal back then? I was about 17 to 20 when it aired and read the papers, fan mags and watched ET and I don't recall any controversy. Sometimes I wish extreme religious groups could see past their narrow world and see fantasy and storytelling for what it is, just that, fantasy. I considered myself sort of religious back then and I found this show to be romantic and exciting and never even thought about bestiality.

Anywho, I just got all 3 seasons on DVD and for some reason can't bring myself to watch season 3 yet. I liked Jo Anderson at the time, but after killing off Catherine I felt they should have ended things there, with a nice soap operaish opening for Catherine to return (in my mind anyway.)

Honestly, I don't know that religious (or other -- for all I know they were worried about PETA *G*) groups did have any objections.

I do know that the network executives were nervous that an actual kiss between Catherine and Vincent might prompt objections about bestiality and, at least the first season, they put a ban on displaying it. I think the producers kind of got around it with A Happy Life where there was a kind of "dream kiss" as the two of them moved into a hug.

This would be a perfect time for a re-imagining of BATB, with the horrible state of the economy and the world right now a show like this with elements of romance and fantasy could be a form of escapism. At least it would work for me.

As much as I loved the original Battlestar Galactica and was wary of the re-imaging I was quite suprised with how good it is, and as much as I love Ron Perlman and Linda Hamilton to pieces, if the recasting was done well with BATB (with actors who can deliver classical as well as comtemporary acting styles) this could work. By actors who can deliver I mean established actors with some extensive classical theater training who can deliver a sonnet and evoke some actual emotions.

I guess I'm just tired and disgusted with the fact that TV has become a reality wasteland and scripted dramas are seen less and less. I'd rather watch a Law & Order episode than an episode of Rock of Love.

Since Moonlight was cancelled maybe Ron Koslow has some free time to re-work it.

Dear Ron, time to shop an updated BATB script around Hollywood.

I had never watched it when it aired (was slightly too young at the time for it to have been my cup of tea), but I thought it sounded up my alley and so impulse bought the dvds. And I liked it while at times finding it unbearably earnest.

Maybe it's just the different times and watching it with the eyes of a jaded modern tv viewer, but I was always waiting for plot twists that never came. With the notable exception of Elliot Birch, there was little ambiguity or trying to undercut audience expectations. That more than the clothes even drove home to me that it was from a really different time. And this modern viewer liked best when Vincent got all grrrrry and violent. Mmmmmmm.



Ha. I wondered, I was all, is this a Sam and Diane thing, that they want to keep up the tension? Never occurred to me the concern was bestiality! *rolls eyes at 80s network execs* Were people really that likely to be shocked?

Joe never met Vincent, did he? Although he heard the name, of course. I would have been really interested to see how that would have gone down.

Ugh, I finally found the courage to watch season 3. I must have blocked most of it from my memory because it was for the most part dreck, and save for the 2 part season opener I had erased it from my brain.

I liked the character of Diana Bennett, but as she was there to replace Catherine it felt forced. Had she been a more peripheral character in season 2 leading to 3 it might not have been so bad, but I guess Ron Koslow couldn't have predicted that LH would want to quit after having her baby.

Someone upthread also mentioned the increased body count in season 3 (I guess that includes the 200+ people killed in Elliott Burch's hotel fire), as detracting from what made the show so good in the first 2 seasons. This might have had something to do with that all important 18-49 male demographic, but why shouldn't we ladies have our own little piece of TV land filled with flowers and poetry and classical music? Damn you CBS.

Anywho, why couldn't one single solitary lady in that writers room have pushed for a happily ever after ending with Vincent, Catherine and the baby living the rest of their days Below, enjoying Winterfest and childrens concerts. Damn, Damn you CBS. Damn you to heck Ron Koslow. But still consider a re-imaging at some point, wink, wink. Damn you still.

I recently caught this on Chiller, too, and then bought the series. I hadn't remember any of it, except two scenes in "Shades of Grey" (which I hadn't even remembered the name until I watched it again). The first one was when Mouse received his punishment, and the second was when Mouse found out about the cave-in from Jamie. I remember thinking as a kid that it was so cool that people lived in tunnels under a city (couldn't even remember it was NYC). I wanted to live there so badly. Hee. Gotta love pre-adolescence.

Anyway, my favorite moment had to be when I recognized Armin Shimerman as Pascal. QUARK! If I had realized Shimerman was in this, albeit in a very limited role, I would have checked it out long ago. Love him.

I also squeed when I saw Jay Acovone was one of the main characters. I loved Kowalsky, in Stargate SG1. I was so bummed he didn't stick around that series. I like Joe, and really wish he learned about the tunnel world at some point. I loved it when Father approached him in season 3. I was so hoping Joe would find out then.

One of my other favorites is Narcissa. She is SO over-the-top, it's hilarious. There are too many moments where I'm laughing hysterically at something that's supposed to be filled with tension. Lord, she's a hoot.

I prefer the tunnel world to the main Catherine/Vincent storyline. I wanted to know more about how it began, what the timeline really is (how old were Pascal and Winslow supposed to be, as part of the second generation?), what Jamie's backstory was, a little more about Mouse's history, etc.

The dialogue is also corny as hell. I get that it's supposed to be poetic, but good grief is it flowery. Gives me a lot of chuckle moments, though.

I also like Diana in the third season. I think the show was hurt some by Vincent always coming to Catherine's rescue. I loved that Diana was a bit more in charge of her circumstances. And I totally thought there were more sparks between Diana and Joe than Diana and Vincent. I would have been on board with that.

Does anyone know what happened that cause the end of the series? It just seemed to stop in the middle of the season.

The network only ordered half a season. When it didn't get good ratings, they declined to renew it.


Someone once told me that no show is truly Sci-fi/Fantasy until Armin Shimerman is on it. (Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles had better get cracking.) That trope starts here with Pascal.

Assuming Winslow and Pascal are the oldest of the first generation, I'd say they're in their mid to late thirties.

I also LOVED this show and watched it faithfully when it first aired. I own all three season on DVD, plus the wonderful poetry CD. Ron Perlman reading poetry is the perfect way to calm my nerves when I'm stuck in traffic. I was THRILLED that Chiller ran a 24-hour marathon of it for Valentine's Day -- now THAT was something for the ladies. The only episode I absolutely hated was the VooDoo episode, mostly because it was just so STUPID to have Catherine doll herself up in that ridiculous costume and makeup when she was supposedly under the influence of drugs+trance. Many of the others stretched credibility a good deal -- Catherine did a LOT of stuff that just wouldn't hold up in court -- but if you were willing to suspend a certain amount of disbelief, it was a gloriously romantic ride.

And then -- the strike, followed by Linda Hamilton's pregnancy and her decision to leave the series. Given, those circumstances, I could understand why TPTB made the decision to have Catherine become pregnant and then somehow die, leading to the further development of the series with Vincent as "superhero." But, really, they couldn't come up with better circumstances than that? I LIKED Jo Anderson, and I LIKED her Diana Bennett. I think they were setting her up as an early version of what we now know as a "profiler," an approach to law enforcement that was still establishing itself and its methods and was struggling for acceptance. I think she was set up to be fascinated by Vincent as an individual -- a special and completely unique individual deserving of her loyalty and protection -- but not as a love interest; I think she had tremendous respect for Catherine Chandler and for the extraordinary relationship she had with Vincent, and she would not want to encroach upon his grief. In addition, I agree with an earlier poster that it looked like they were developing a relationship between Diana and Joe.

There was potential for a deepening relationship with Joe to lead to an eventual meeting with Vincent and a clandestine cooperation between the "world below" and the District Attorney's office. But they botched the transition, and their audience was too disappointed by the death of Catherine to stick with the show and see where it might go.

I'd LOVE to see an updated version -- one that takes into consideration the realities of modern day police work and prosecution, and with a Vincent that didn't leave a mounting string of unexplained bodies in his wake! Today's Vincent would have to be MUCH more circumspect and careful, given modern forensics! The question becomes, who would you like to see playing Catherine and Vincent? Father? Joe the ADA?