A lackluster ending to a bizarre season.

I feel there are steps the producers could take to help make next season better. I hope it's OK to list them here.

If I was in charge of DWTS, I would make the following changes:

1. No more 2 dances per week. It's too grueling and exhausting. Only the MOST fit people and quick learners can give great performances under those conditions. The performances the audience gets to enjoy would be much better if they only had to do one dance per week, all the way to the end.

2. More DanceCenter! Kenny Mayne could have a rotating group of commentators join him in the DanceCenter: Emmit, Laila, Apolo, George Hamilton, Billy Ray Cyrus.... lots of fun to be had! Len's spot could be filled by the other judges, and the PROS. I'd love to see Louis in DanceCenter.

3. Force the judges to learn the rules -- if they can't pass a test of the rules, fire them and get new ones. All judges MUST read the ABC website rules -- if American standard-whatever VW is allowed, then I don't ever want to hear Len criticize a pro for doing that kind of dance. All of them should also be forced to pass a test (developed by Louis! hee) of their ability to recognize basic steps from each of the ten dances. No more of Carrie Ann's "that's not a real Samba" embarrassment.

4. Give each pair adequate dress rehearsal time with the band, the lights, cameras, make-up, and costume all as it will be for the performance. Each couple should be able to practice with the band until the band has gotten it perfect. No more music surprises on LIIIIVE TV. (yes, that probably means 2 days of dress rehearsals, with the full band being paid -- tough. Such a high rated show can afford it)

5. Hire Louis and Nick (and Mark Ballas, to give his injury time to heal) fulltime, to be roaming choreographers, working with all of the couples. We would see the best, most entertaining show if each celebrity had the best possible routine each week. The partners assigned to Tony, Edyta, and Maks are at a disadvantage when compared to the partners of master-choreographers Julianne, Derek, Kym, and Cheryl. Give master choreography assistance to everyone.

6. Let the world see the pros dance. Every eliminated pro should do an exhibition dance each week.

7. The group dances are fun. Maybe during week 7, they could do a group dance of the first six couples eliminated -- The Dance of the Losers. :)

8. Require each celebrity to commit to sufficient rehearsal time in their contract to participate in DWTS.

I'd be interested in hearing your feedback.

Here are the some of the things I speculate they will (or should) be discussing, posted yesterday in the closed speculation thread, prompted by reading the TV guide article where the pros and stars were bummed out at the judges, with Maks and Julianne basically saying, "What the hell was the point of being so negative on the last show, you sucked the air out of the audience. What was that?"

1. Make up your damn minds. Is this a "beginners learning to dance" show, or "the best dancers we can find to make great dancing a possibility show?" The whole "friendly" vibe is gone now, and various fans are pissed about this whole thing, on both sides. How do we fix that?
2. If it isn't all "beginners" and people of all ages/shapes/sizes, then what are you going to do to make sure older people will be willing to be on the show, when it's almost a certainty that they have no chance?
3. Stop propping that damn band and those God-awful singers, and spend the money it takes to get rights to better (or original) songs!
4. If it's going to be semi-pro, or non-ballroom, but still pro-dancers, AKA "ringers", then what are you going to do to make it a fair contest for the true beginners? If nothing, then how are you going to handle the not-best, but still most improved/inspiring/entertaining (whatever) NON-pro winning this whole thing?
5. Related to above, is it time to dump the 2 dances a week concept, and give the beginners and their pros time to get it right?
6. What the hell are we going to do about the scoring system?
7. Related to scoring, what the hell are we going to do about the judges? We have upped the score to the point where they mean nothing, and there is nowhere to go. On top of that, these 3 didn't bother to be critical until it was too damn late, and they brought down the whole mood of the damn show, during the finale, when there was no chance for anyone to do a damn thing about it. WTF? Do they not get that this is about entertainment?
8. Should we consider one Simon like judge being added?
9. Should we give them 15 paddles, and instructions to not go above a 10 for the first 5 weeks?
10. Should we separate the seasons, have a semi-pro season, and then an all-beginner season? Should we forget over-30's all together?
11. How do we get control of this thing? It's time to re-tool, re-think, and freshen up all of our ideas here, from the promos, to the amount of time "stars" will have to practice, to how in the hell we are going to give at least the illusion of a fair contest when we have Wayne Newton and Sabrina competing against one another.
12. We need to dump that brain dead co-host.

I like your ideas, Lady V! Can we copy and paste your list and e-mail it to ABC?!

For the judges' scoring -- would it be better if they did in fact make it more like figure skating? Have one portion be technical merit, strictly determined by required elements in the dance and things like leading with the heel, and then have another portion of the score be artistic merit? The first part would hold them more accountable to using the full range of paddles, and the second part would be their same old wacky "watching you brings me joy" and "you are like the sunshine" and I wouldn't be so annoyed.

I forgot to say earlier, good ideas, woodrose.

2 dances per week is tough, although I think viewers like that and it raises the excitement level. How about 1 competitive dance and 1 group dance instead, when it gets to that point in the season? I never understood why they only do that one group dance -- it's weird how it's just thrown in there midway. I think having them do more group dances would relieve some of the 2 dance pressure, since they'd only be getting scored on one performance. Of course, there's probably no way they could get the whole cast together to practice a group dance every week.

Definitely more DanceCenter and I never want to see Jimmy or Guillermo again.

Yes, the judges MUST learn the rules of the show.

Yes to more pro dances on results nights. No more Macy's stars of dance! I want ballroom!

Get some decent music, for goodness' sake. Songs that fit the character and speed of the dance.

The only thing I'm not sure about is the pros doing choreography technical assistance. Although I did *love* when they had old school serious pros like Shirley Ballas visit Mark and Sabrina. Maybe some more master classes like that would do it.

I like the two dances a week, but I would be for more group dances. Somehow the group dances have been reduced to one a season and it usually something not really very ballroom-y. It's fun, but that's about it. It doesn't really help make up anybody's minds about who to vote for.

I liked in season 2 when they did the group viennese and also a group salsa. I prefer those kind of group dances where you could actually see the couples dance and kind of get a feel for who was getting it and who wasn't.

Dance Center is one of those sketches which people would start to hate the more times it was on the air. I did laugh at some of what was said, but there's only so many times they can have a sketch about insulting everyone. I know seeing George Hamilton or Billy Ray Cyrus again might bring out the hate in me.



I agree. I loved the group dances that season. That season was so wonderful in so many ways. Most of the changes TPTB have made since that time have been mixed success, at best.

That group salsa and v. waltz from season 2 were great. Those times when they were given time to dance their own unique dances but also dance a ballroom and latin.

I agree DanceCenter is good in small doses but Jimmy Kimmel is better with no dose.

The other thing I liked about is then the judges could give their comments and single out couples they thought did well and etc. When they do that after the group dance we've had the past few seasons, the dances are such a mess that they judges basically give an overall everyone did a great job kind of mantra because it's too hard to make any other comment. Of course the judges could still fawn like crazy over their golden stars and starlets, but I liked that we got actual comments.

They need to get rid of the "ask the audience" section. It's so rare that anything funny gets said. I'd rather watch more exhibitions, but I suppose that requires paying at least two pros.

And I like the idea of a technical and artistic score separation, but I doubt they'd do it -- takes extra air time, and too much math for a lazy viewer.

That ask the audience segment is horrible. I am not sure about technical and artistic. Maybe reward difficulty of choreography. The show makes so much money that I do wish they would showcase more pro dancing. I also want them to use the original recording for the songs used during the freestyle. Still bugs me that you have Young MC in the audience while the band butchers his song during Apolianne's freestyle.

The band and/ or singers have to go as they are simply a hindrance to the celebs and pros. There is no excuse for having such a weak group when I'm sure that L.A. is filled with talented singers and musicians. Maybe our current performers are good individually, but they simply do not perform well as a unit. I don't buy the excuse that they only have limited rehearsal time because the bands and singers in many of the international versions are phenomenal and they don't get any more rehearsal days than we do. Compare Australia's band here to our band here, both performing Don't Stop Till You Get Enough. The Australian band is far superior imo, almost sounding exactly like MJ's original recording in some parts. Our band....well...they got through it I guess. And for all of Mr. Wheeler's accomplishments, I really have been underwhelmed with some of the arrangements he has put together. Again, maybe he is hindered by the band/ singers and their limitations.

Regarding the judges scoring. I think they should start with a 10 point scale and be required to deduct points. It doesn't have to be as critical as in real ballroom. But if someone does a lift during a routine, then there should be a deduction. They should also have to do the basic elements of the chosen dance at least twice during the routine. Something has to be done about the music. There is enough good music out there that is appropriate for sambas, mambos and tangos without forcing the pros to choreograph to the crap the producers have chosen. Quit mixing well known celebs with unknowns, like models. Revamp the all over scoring system. For instance, still allow the viewer to cast 10 votes as in week one but only allow a maximum of 5 votes for any one couple. This could be adjusted as the vote totals decline.

How about letting a woman win for a change? That would help improve the show. The final 4 had three women and one man and a guy still won it!

While I understand the frustration behind this sentiment, I don't agree with it. There's no such thing as a quota in competition the way there might be if you were looking to make a politically correct hire at your job site. Winners win because they've earned it, not because they fill some artificial and arbitrary quota.

Moreover, the viewers don't "let" someone win on DWTS; quite the contrary. He (or she) earns the win by being the one who best captures the hearts of the viewers. To suggest that it should somehow be otherwise solely because a man won again is, in my opinion, to make the same argument that got Jennifer (of Nate and Jennifer) nowhere on The Amazing Race, i.e., that because the same team has already gotten to the mat first twice in a row, someone else (i.e., Jennifer and Nate, or, in DWTS terms, a woman--any woman) should then get a turn to get to the mat first regardless of whether or not they had actually raced well enough to finish first.

Putting it another way, it's not Helio's fault that a woman hasn't won since Season 1; why begrudge him or any other man the win simply because he's the "wrong" gender?

Then just cast all men stars with female pros and be done with it.

I think what some of us are saying is that it is less than a satisfactory result -- and show -- if we feel it's impossible for a woman ever to win. It's not like, oh, a really great dancer (male) was on the show, so it's great that he won! I was in that boat myself with Drew. And at least somewhat with Apolo. But this time, we've got a mediocre male who beat out at least four women who are much better dancers than he is, but he waltzes (sort of) to victory, and that leaves a bad taste.

This may (and in my case, will) make some of us unwilling to watch in the future because of the bad taste. It reminds me that life isn't fair, that I have never had my finger on the pulse of the mainstream nor do I want to, that I hate most of humanity, and I should really become a hermit and stop watching the crap we call TV.

As far as my relationship with DWTS goes, I am in the right demographic for a couple more years, yet I doubt they will care if they lose me unless there are dozens (dozens!) more like me. Are there? I don't know. I do know that about the time I turned off because of the misogyny of ABC's daytime lineup, ratings took a header and have never recovered, so I'm not alone there.

Back to DWTS, they may also have trouble finding female celebs with high profiles, of the likes of Jane Seymour, because it pisses them off that they don't have a chance before they start. Stars are stars because they have egos. If the only women they can get are down there with Josie Maran, Shanna Moakler and Willa Ford (or Florence Henderson and Tori Spelling), they're in trouble.

OTOH, I can see tiny male athletes (also not known for small egos) lining up to do the show. Not the tall ones -- they saw the humiliation of Clyde Drexler for being too tall -- or the boxers -- they saw the humiliation of Evander and Floyd and 3rd place for Laila -- but I would imagine there are a lot of Olympians (skiers, snowboarders, that kind of thing) and racers who think the show might be useful in raising their profiles and getting them some new endorsements. Not the girls, of course. They know better by now. But the boys... Well, there's plenty of room for them! And maybe they will each bring enough new viewers from these minor sports -- people who'd never be caught dead watching DWTS under other circumstances -- and that will more than make up the loss of snippy feminists like me, who they never cared about in the first place.

And that's fine. But some of us will not be tuning in for a parade of Playboy bunnies, no-name models, washed-up D-list bimbos, and tiny male athletes.

At some level it's not about fundamental fairness or equal rights, it's about making your audience feel good about your show and feel included. At the moment, I ain't feeling either.

I don't hate Jimmy as much as I hate audience reviews of the dancing, but I think that more DanceCenter would ruin it. I think what makes it UTTERLY fantastic is how much of a treat it is to have Kenny come in partway through the season and help the viewer blow off your I'm-frustrated-with-this-flaw-of-this- star-and-with-Len-and-the-judges steam and it gives him time to know what the stories of the show are and put together a really good segment. I think it would become one-note and irritating if done more.

Why they can't do segments on the elements of the dances is beyond me. I think they've done a bit of it before, but why the pros can't demonstrate the basics is beyond me. As long as they don't repeat the segments, I think I'd enjoy it a lot.

And yet, arlykeeno (I'm in pretty much the same demographic as you, by the way--except that I'm a gay male), as I pointed out to Elsa in the "Other Shows" thread recently, women have had much better track records on other versions of DWTS, so I don't believe that it's utterly impossible for a woman to win this version. Consider the following:

The Netherlands has had two female winners in a row (with the same male pro yet!), and the last winner was, in terms of dancing ability, somewhere north of Marie but south of Jennie--and yet she beat a male celeb who had an extensive background in musical theater and who was considered the universal favorite to win. Germany had a 62-year-old woman this year who finished second by an extremely slim margin. Oh,and incidentally, the first Dutch female champion was an Olympic speed-skater; her successor was a weather forecaster, and the German woman was known more for being a singer and songwriter than for being an actress.

Italy had a female winner last year (an Olympic track-and-field star, incidentally) who made Marie Osmond look like Cyd Charisse on the dance floor, and from what I understand, a woman just won again this year (I haven't seen the result yet, but I believe that, if it's the one I'm thinking of, she's a former beauty queen--but that's not normally the type who wins there), despite the fact that she wasn't quite the most technically proficient, at least not compared to some of the other dancers I saw. Poland also just evidently produced a female winner who beat out a very strong male celeb who, in fact, got shut out just before the semi-finals. And I believe Australia just had a female winner as well. Add to that the fact that the UK has at least two strong female contenders left (one of whom is not unlike Mel B.), and the fact that Belgium would probably have had its second consecutive female winner if her pro hadn't had to pull out just before the semi-finals due to a back injury, and I think that there's plenty of evidence that women can win DWTS--and they don't have to be Playboy bunnies or D-list bimbos, either. They simply have to be women who can consistently draw people into their dancing the way that Kelly did in Season 1, and that Drew, Emmitt, Apolo, and Helio have since then.

Wow. I started a thread (with the moderator's intervention). I'm honored. I've never had my name as the threadstarter -- I'm on the front page. woo-hoo

More group dances in lieu of a second individual dance is a great idea, though I do understand the scheduling difficulties. I'd particularly enjoy seeing a group VW, with the floor full of couples swirling and gliding. Unfortunately, there is also a risk of crashing. I wouldn't want anyone to get hurt. :( Maybe they could do it with only 3 couples on the floor at a time.


More DanceCenter could be more versions of DanceCenter:

Louis, Monique, and Kenny are watching a replay of the pro demonstration samba from the previous week.

Kenny: Is her butt supposed to be sticking out like that?

Monique: Of course it is -- that's Karina doing the dancing. Trust me, Kenny -- it is HARD to move so fast while in that position.

Louis: Movement has intrinsic meaning which transcends the solid.

Monique: See, Louis agrees with me.


Another idea I have for expanding the DWTS payroll is to hire a fulltime male and female roaming pro. Edyta could visit all the female celebrities regularly during their practices, modeling the moves the male is trying to teach. The woman could watch Edyta and Derek do a move, helping her to learn what her part is supposed to look like. Alec could visit all the male celebrity couples.

Of course, there would be a bit of a problem roaming amongst couples practicing all over the globe :)

akg24 suggested that Shirley Ballas could visit more couples and offer assistance. I also think TPTB should consider hiring Corky and/or Shirley (and other pros of similar age) to be partnered with a Wayne Newton or Florence Henderson. The young pros, like Cheryl, do a great job. But it might look better visually, and the celebrities might be more comfortable, with older pros.

Don't send anyone home the first week. Let everyone have a chance to build a fan base.

Most agree that enforcement of the rules for judging need to be consistent.

I would like to see the two dances remain in the Semi-Finals.





The music was really bad, wasn't it? I like all the changes recommended in this area. If the couple are praticing to a professional CD, it must be extremely difficult to dance with the band and singers now on the show?

Yes, they need to get rid of the "ask the audience" segments. What a waste of time.

I enjoyed seeing Wade on the show. One of the highlights of the season. Let's have more.



Yes, I wish they had a "This Is How It Is Done" segment, so we can see what the major elements of the dances presented. I do believe they did this in past seasons.

One thing I did enjoy was seeing the pro dancers performing with Gloria Estefan, Barry Manilow, and Celion Dion. It was a perfect balance in presentation. No more performances from singers who are out there to promote their Number One hit and the pros are not dancing!

ETA: I tried to improve my errors.

I think that's a great idea. Currently, it seems like the age discrepancy between partners leads to mostly comic routines that make fun of the "oldie" in the partnership. Matching up celebs with pros of the same generation could re-focus on the refinement and elegance of some of the dances, and make "technique" front and center in the scoring.

I wonder if Tony and Melanie are available?

I don't think DWTS will ever hire a better band because I don't think they want a band who will help all of the dancers. I think they deliberately choose bad music selections and bad performances for couples they don't care for, and save the best for the couples they're trying to pimp.

I believe that's the same reason they don't want viewers to know too much about dance technique, because they want us to like who they like, whether those people can actually dance or not.


The UK's last two series have been won by somewhat bland, good-looking athletes. There's a chance the same may happen this series.

I no longer believe a woman can win DWTS unless it's a strong woman against an unlikeable man, and even then, he'd have to have a weak partner.

Suggestion for the title of the thread: "Heel Leads and Sharper Hands: How to Improve the Show"

That is such a great suggestion to include older pro dancer such as the Ballas, Tony, Meredith. It would also be more respectful as current older celebs are there more as a comedic affect. It can also show the audience the quality of dancing has nothing to do with how many tricks are in a routine. Can someone email ABC that idea?

I missed the what to look for in this dance segment they used to do.

I second the inclusion of group salsa and group viennese waltz. On TV Guide, more than 70% polled want to overhaul the judging. Now, it is probably not a representative sample, but I do think after the finals catastrophe, they may want to find a way to ensure the best dancers are in the finals. Or find a way to get Cheryl, Anna, Kym, Derek into the finals. Only half serious with that last comment.

Too bad Paulina is going on ANTM because she would be a great choice to replace Samantha. She is gorgeous and she is very witty and quick.

I think they should go the 'So You Think You Can Dance' route with how the stars get voted off. The judges choose the bottom 2... or 3, whatever and then the viewers vote who to vote off from those choices.

Then once it gets down to the last three, then it's all in the viewers hands. Judges have nothing to say/do with it.

Except that that's not quite how it works on SYTYCD. In the first half of the competition, it's the judges who decide who goes home, not the viewers, and eliminations are always in pairs. The viewers aren't given the ultimate decision-making power until the top ten have been selected, and even then, eliminations are still always in pairs (one male and one female.) Moreover, while the judges no longer directly control the outcome at that point, they can still wield considerable influence through their commentary (witness, for example, Nigel's pointed, yet ultimately successful suggestion, that he'd prefer to see a woman win and hoped that America would vote accordingly--despite the fact that Sabra was, in many people's eyes, not the best dancer and not worthy of such a blatant endorsement simply because of her gender.)

SCD this year has given the voters the power to decide who's in the bottom two, but it's the judges, with Len in particular as the head judge, who ultimately vote on who stays or who goes. How that's going to work as the pool shrinks down to the Final 4, I have no idea, but I do know that the British viewers aren't exactly thrilled about the fact that the judges have even that much power to nullify the popular vote.

How to improve? Get rid of Samantha.

1. No audience interviews.
2. Fewer personal interest stories.
3. Less excuse-making from the celebs, e.g. "My hectic schedule", "I have eight kids", etc. The producers should edit all that stuff out. No one wants to hear all that whining. You chose to be on the show and made a commitment. Be professional!
4. At the end of each performance night the professionals should perform the dance of the night so people can see how it is supposed to look.
5. At the beginning of each results show, have Len or the professionals give a beginning dance lesson, perhaps to people in the audience. This might impress viewers about how difficult it is to learn a dance and memorize choreography.
6. Everyone should dance the same dance each night. Comparisons would be easier this way.
7. Rotate the pros among the celebrities from week to week. This would be fun to watch, and it would help mitigate the effect of people voting for a pro instead of a celebrity. Also would cut down on the "showmances".
8. Voters get only one phone or internet vote, but get to grade each performer on technique, style, degree of difficulty, and interpretation. On the results show, they should show the results of all this. I think it would fascinating to see what scores the celebs receive when it is broken down like this.
9. Separate the female celebs from the male celebs, either by having a separate show, or simply giving separate awards. This would help avoid the apparent male celeb bias.
10. More proper ballroom music. Perhaps even use the same music for all of a certain dance. I'm convinced that the choice of music influences the scores (and voting), which is unfair because the couples don't get to choose the music.
11. Samantha should always wear that blue dress she wore Monday night.
12. Replace either Bruno or Carrie-Ann with a season ballroom judge. Having one choreographer is fine; two is too many, though.

I am so afraid the show would become boring with the sameness of all the couples. Somewhere in all of this is seeing how a star improves over the course of the show. Looking at the talent this season, there were a few celebs (ex. Albert Reed) that I would have loved to see improve. But fan base determines advancement, and some of the "unknowns" don't have a chance.

If DWTS wants to maintain high ratings, changes must be made. Merely hiring a new co-host will not solve major problems like the music. They really need to work on this specific problem, IMO.

I would like to see the couple who is eliminated announced 10 minutes before the end of the show, not 30 seconds before the end of the show. Put together a little clip package and give enough time for a last dance. It is so rushed! I agree 100%. Treat this as any professional commitment - no whining, no excuses, just clear your schedule as much as you can. You signed up, now go and dance. And I am really tired of the women playing the "I have kids" card - and yes I am a mom. How many of the celebs were dads? Did they whine about it as much? Dads can balance the many hats and they don't complain. It just bugs me because it feeds in to the whole "Working Mom Guilt Thing" that needs to go away.

I so agree with this one. Paulina Perzakova and Josie Moran were just two of the ones who seemed very likeable and got raw deal. Albert Reed should have been able to build a fan base as well but let's face it, he could not have competed with the Children's Miracle Network mass e-mail appeal.

How can you say that? Tony’s the one that choreographed most of the pro dances Season 3, Season 4 he choreographed the jive with Maks, the Jose Stone routine, and many others. This season he choreographed the routine he did with Maks, Anna, and Elena. The routine with Celine Dion is his work as well. . He choreographs at his partner’s ability like all of them. He hasn’t had a good celebrity since Stacy, but that’s not his fault. He got an Emmy nomination for his work with Stacy. He and Cheryl got one for season 2 and Louis got one for season 3. Karina is the same way. She hasn’t shined since Mario.

They've sort of done it by showing a pro couple doing the dance (often shot through a gauzy filter for some reason that escapes me) with a voice-over from Len simply listing the things looked for in a dance; but I'd really like an up-close demo of exact steps or sequences, particularly the ones that the judges tend to harp on. For example, Len and his heel leads (or lack thereof) - I think they should show exactly what he means, how it looks done right and wrong.

Another thing I would absolutely love to see on the Results shows is a chunk of time devoted to how a pro developed the dance seen the night before. This past season, when they showed Edyta really struggling as she tried to get ideas for the Superman Paso, I really wanted to see how she came up with bits and finally put it together. Rotated among the pros, I think this would be great, and would give viewers a lot of insight into how each one works.

Maybe it would even out the playing field some, but there's a big risk of all the couples blending together and being just a blur in the viewers eyes. Plus, hearing the same song about 10 times within an hour? Yikes.

I actually like that the eliminations start with week one. No point in wasting time. Some people do get the raw deal that way (mainly Albert, who I think should have stayed longer because he both showed potential and was fun; Josie on the other hand didn't seem that personable, so I don't know that she would have built a fan base), but it's the way the cookie crumbles.

Exchanging pros weekly might be asking too much of the celebrities. Dancing or no dancing on their bios, they're required to adopt a new skill set. That's hard enough as it is. Changing your partner and their teaching methods and choreographies each week seems too much for beginners.

I don't think rotating the pros would work. I get the concept in theory because then all the dancers would get a chance to work with all different kinds of choregraphers and the fanbases of the Juliannes and Cheryl's wouldn't have much effect on the outcome, but because the celebs are not anywhere close to professionals, not so much.

A big part of a celeb having one pro to rely on is allowing that celeb to get so comfortable working with that pro that that is part of where the improvement comes into play.

Unfortunately what I think will happen is you will have these celebs come in who will just get used to one person's teaching method and become comfortable dancing with one person and then throw them into somebody's else's arms next week. If no trust develops from student to pro, I don't see how the dancing will develop or improve that much. It's not like SYTYCD where at least they are all seasoned dancers, even if they are outside of their element.

As a lot of the pros have mentioned, during the season they become the rock for their celeb. Their celeb not only leans on them for teaching, but also for support and what not. I'm not sure as many celebs are going to be willing to come on board when you take away their rock and leave them a lot more vulnerable by not even giving them one person who remains by their side throughout the competition.

I can't even imagine what would have happened after Jennie's fall if she had to leave Derek and move on to Maks.

Other suggestions I agree with. I would like them to do what they did in S4 giving everyone two dances before the first elimination. I also would like the departing couple to get more time than then five seconds before the next show starts.

I also would like more features on the pros. I liked the segment they did towards the end of the season where the judges and pros talked about the remaining pros. However, I would like to see a segment like that for ALL of them, not just the few that remain. Maybe they can feature a pro a week or something on the results show.

The other thing that I thought was missing this season was not enough group pro dances. There were pro dances that featured one or two couples, but not a lot like the ones we used to get when we get all the pros on the floor at once. I know scheduling is hard, but I liked it when all the pros would demonstrate a dance style. Like when they had a group paso.

I think it would be terribly amusing if after every dance that Florence Henderson does (or some other older contestant) where she nails a really hard move, TIIC show footage of Marie wailing about how she's older and it's harder to do stuff. Yes, I'm mean.

But on topic: I want all the judges to agree on the definition of a lift and I want them to show a demonstration of an acceptable move and an unacceptable move. Then we won't get other contestants snarking that when Edyta catapulted herself over Cameron that he was lifting her.

Yes, Yes, Yes Totally agree with this Rules If I had to hear Carrie Ann say one more time "Was that a lift" I was going to go through my t v and dope slap her.

Something else I would like to see is a change in the voting system. I think they should have the public vote and the 2 with the least public votes the judges vote out from between those 2. ( I hope that makes sense) I believe this was brought up before but it is an idea I like very much. If the judges are experts in dance then they should vote out the one that doesn't dance well, not who is least popular. IMHO

I do agree the music needs to improve. The producers say they add contemporary music for standards because they feel it is more entertaining for the audience. Wrong. Jennie's first tango was great because it was not only a great comeback for her and it was a great dance, but they used traditional tango music. Compared to her 2nd tango to Fall Out Boy. I had to rewatch it in mute and then I loved it. Which Hough had it worse? Tango to FOB or tango to Jesse's Girl?

I am not a fan of the same dance idea. SYTYCD did something similar to this and even Nigel said it got boring. The idea to have each celeb dance one ballroom and one latin was a great idea. I think it would have been great for Josie this year. Even if lovely Paulina left too soon, at least I saw two dances from her as well as two weeks of her humor. The show is about two things: dancing and celebs. Less filler and give each eliminated couple more time than those 30 seconds. I felt Cameron and Jennie both had such a lovely send off the weeks they left.

Not sure about the rotating pros. I do think the partnership is part of the appeal of the show. I love Drew and I am sure he would have been great with each female pro but I loved his relationship with Cheryl.

Adding "older" and seasoned pros for the older celebs is a great idea. Add Nick or Louis or Charlotte as a judge. Clear definition of what is a lift and the judges need to distinguish between clear intent versus just an accident as they are amateurs. I do not think Jane's lift was intentional nor was Jennie's during the paso. I got the sense with Jennie's lift, Derek was using her as the cape and since she is not a pro (nor Jane), they cannot pull it off as well. Compare that to Mario's rule breaking in season 3. Not the same thing Carrie Ann.

Scoring needs to change. Not sure if I like the SCD method as even the worst dancers may avoid the b2. I could use Marie's fans voting to make sure she doesn't fall in the b2 and imagine if the judges had to decide between Mel or Sabrina.

Is the ordinal system not a possibility? I know Stacey did not make the final 2, but she made the final 3. I also think if Tony and Stacey had a better freestyle, she could have beat Jerry because of her higher scores (possibly) over Drew.

I am completely addicted to DWTS but am feeling a slight indifference creeping in after these many seasons, here's why:

Even more than I enjoy excellent dancing, I really like seeing an unlikely competitor making improvements through sheer determination and hard work. It's the same principle that makes you root for an athelete who has overcome a lot of odds. In the case of DWTS, the underdog is not so much the person with an artificial limb (a la Heather Mills) but the person who is at the bottom of the ladder talent-wise. But because people are voted right off the bat, we don't get a chance to see the "worst" dancers making this kind of progression. Making the assumption that the first couple of people voted off are indeed the worst dancers, it would be just that much more dramatic if they turned out to be that person who rose up from the ashes in the following weeks. Even though I have no idea who half the stars are, I turn into their fans when I see the improvements they make and it makes me vested in their sucess. That's what you have to do ABC, you have to get fans to be VESTED in a competitor's outcome. To that end, I agree with many others here that you should not vote anyone off until about the third weeek, at which point you can combine the total judge's scores with the viewers. That is the biggest change I think will improve the viewing experience, but other big one's are:

Judging - Totally agree that rules need to be clarified and stuck to. There's nothing that turns people off more than inconsistency in rules. It sucks the competition out and makes it into a random lottery, thus sucking out the viewing enjoyment.

Increased weight for judge's scores - This is a combo talent/popularity show, but more empasis should be given to talent.

Less personal stories - I really love the video segments showing the celebs with the pros in practice. But the family scenes and hectic schedule scenes add nothing but boredom. More of the former and none/less of the latter please.

As for the disparity in ability and age, I do think it's a bit messy but I can live with it because I think both the judges and the viewers reward the lesser dancer who has demonstrated vast improvement. And I don't think age is a factor. Jane couldn't shake it because she just could not, not because she was over 50.

Rotating judges. Have a pro that isn't dancing that season work as a rotating judge...




ITA.
Jane Seymour said something interesting on a talk show about how her weight loss made it harder to keep her foot off the floor when Tony was spinning her. She admitted her foot was off, but it was just an inch and clearly an accident. That should have been taken into consideration. If a contestant or pro flouts the rules, there should be a penalty, but judges should be able to see the difference.

Len seemed to recognize that difference which is why he made that comment of a lift free zone. Not that they had anything to worry about as no one came off Mario arrogant this season to pull something like that. Carrie Ann should have known better but I like the rotating 4th pro as a judge. Then you could see Nick or Louis on t.v. again.

But that’s what makes the show “unpredictable.” It’s part of the controversy. Did They Do a Lift? Did They Break the Hold during the Tango? They did a segment about the “lift gate” right before Tony and Jane did the VW with a lift. That told me that the producers asked them to do a lift in the finale.

I am SO not interested in who improves the most, so I'm not sure there's any way to change the show to get that outcome (most improved = winner) that will make everyone happy.

Besides, if you're really a ringer, in the real definition of the word, and you come in with major skills, you would (with calculation aforethought)pretend to be bad at the start so that you can also pretend to get hugely better. See: Fred Astaire pretending to be a bad dancer when he goes to Ginger's dance studio in "Shall We Dance" so that her boss will think Ginger is a fantastic teacher. (It's the "Pick Yourself Up" number.) So I hereby suggest that everyone who is really, really good pretend to be bad in silly ways at the beginning (Ooops, I just can't remember not to fall over every once in awhile!) so then they can improve for the people who only care about improvement and a growth arc.

I just want to see good dancing, so I'd prefer they bring all their skills and spizzerinctum to the table from the start.

As for rule changes, I would love to see the judges give us a bottom three for the first, say, five weeks, and we vote among them. At least that would make the judges be a little more honest with their scores. But I think we would still end up with much the same result as pure popular vote, because Marie's or BRC's or Master P's fans would keep saving them. The problem with that on the first season of SYTYCD was that they put whole partnerships in the bottom group, even though it may've just been one of the partners who stunk up the place. But it would be the star/pro couple on DWTS, since they are a unit and not competing against each other. That's better to me, but still... I think that fanatic fandoms would still be a problem.

Limiting the online votes by ISP might help, but then people with access to telebanks (Mark Cuban, Marie, Sanjaya -- just a joke!) could get around it.

I think it would be really fun and interesting if for the semi-finals, the couples all get the same song for one of their two dances, and you can really compare and contrast their work. I'd love to see the pros creativity with the choreography, and how the stars compare dancing to the same music. This would put a lot of emphasis on the pros, because choreography would be such an important factor. But I like that. I think that who a celeb is partnered with is a huge part of how far they will go(I think Mel would have won with Derek, and Cameron would have won if he'd been paired with Cheryl or Julianne). DWTS isn't just about the stars for me, I love seeing the pros just as much(half the time I haven't even heard of the "stars" before anyway).

The problem is that Cameron would still have had the same insane schedule and the same attitude. He might have had one or two slightly better routines... but this a reality show not a dance competition. Same goes for Mel.

Plus Cameron is a foot taller than Julianne, and that would've looked really nasty. I don't doubt that Cameron could've won with Cheryl, so point taken, anyway. I'm still not sure they could've offset the aw gee, aren't we adorable, more bounce per ounce appeal of wee baby Julianne and wee baby Helio, though.

That might not work too well, as AOL and various cable ISPs rotate IP addresses between subscribers. You could arguably log in and get the IP address used by someone who voted earlier. Maybe they should just give very little weight to the online votes, and mainly count text messaging and phone. At least those can probably be tracked and limited.

ITA that they need to leave everyone on the show for the first few weeks to give nearly-forgotten/unknown celebrities the chance to at least build a fan base if they didn't show up with one. And the music -- stop the horrific music. I think the American public can handle a soupcon of culture on occasion without fleeing their family rooms in terror.

Good one, nutgoodie.

I think the show is being inexcusably rude when they delay announcing who is eliminated until the final 15 seconds, and then Tom hurries them up and cuts off any hugs they are getting on the stage.

No excuse for it! Stop it, show!

Here's a ymmv item that would make the show much better for me: Eliminate the paso doble, the damn wifebeater dance. I know the excuse is that it is the bullfighter dance, but if that is really the case, they need to announce everytime that the woman is playing the bull.

My husband has watched DWTS with me twice, one of them being the season 4 final performance show. The first dance was Laila and Maks's paso doble, which ended with Laila and Maks trading punches and then Maks threw Laila to the floor.

Mr. Woodrose, knowing the feminist he married, turned to me with stunned disbelief on his face, and said that he couldn't believe I wanted to watch this show. I sheepishly gave him the paso excuses -- she is pretending to be the bull, even though I've NEVER seen a single dance where the woman credibly imitated a bull or a cape.

Spain, the home of the bullfight, no longer allows bullfights to be televised. I wish we could get rid of the *&%#*! paso doble on DWTS.

ymmv greatly

I do like the paso when done well (Drew, Mel, Jennie, Apolo).

Maybe no more foxtrot as it is so rarely done well. It is a difficult dance but does not appear as such. Yet the fans do not pick up on those details.

ITA. And I thought Mel's pasos in particular were perfect examples of how it does not have to be the "wifebeater dance" (as it often is, Woodrose).

I think I might have seen someone mention this upthread but I can't seem to find it now. Anyhow, I'd love to see them add Salsa or at least bring it back as a group dance, as in Season 2. That particular routine was sort of boring but I think they could make it exciting (yet less scrambled than this swing/rock 'n roll thing they seem to have come up with).

I also think that last season's format of doing the first elimination in week two was very good. Everyone gets to do a Latin and a Ballroom and it also gives the celebs without a fanbase an extra week to try to draw some people in (even if that didn't really work out for poor Paulina). This format might have saved "dark horse" Albert this year!

I don't know. Albert got both a Latin and a Ballroom (Quickstep). Poor Josie never got to do her Mambo. I had hoped she'd do it Tuesday night - now I'll never get to see how she does in Latin style.

I think in Season 4 - Billy Ray would have gone out first, but he improved. And Leeza (I think) did too, so voters didn't want to kick them out after they'd come back from bad openers - and that left poor middle of the pack Paulina whose Mambo was "starchy." I wonder if Len hadn't said that if she'd have been safe and Shandi would have hit the road? (I think that was the week that Shandi called Brian a "girlyman" and bragged about wearing the pants in the relationship - and she was glad she didn't get a dictatorial Russian.

Paulina was such a delightful person - funny and self-deprecating - but the height difference was hard to get used to. Like Tom Cruise and Nicole Kidman. It's a shame I have to be so sexist (and maybe that's not what tripped up Alec and Paulina but maybe)